UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Rolandofgilead]

Oh dear.

it’s not clear at all - especially when we don’t even know what the potential leader of the country and future PM actually wants? If you could tell me what Corbyn wants to do, then I would consider it a clear position.

Boris - wants to leave with agreed deal.
Swinson - will revoke a50 on day one
Corbyn - will attempt to negotiate a deal, which will take how long? Allegedly 3 months, then have a referendum which will take another 6 months, and then maybe we will have an answer? Or maybe not?

Boris negotiated a deal in 3 months and people applauded him.

See this is the problem with party politics. Almost everybody in this thread (myself included) suffers from confirmation bias.

I’d like to the see anti semitism completely stamped out of society and politics, but that also applies to all forms of racism and prejudice.

The evidence that Corbyn has spent a great deal of his life fighting racism is pretty clear, but unfortunately so is anti semitism in sections of the party. The problem is, the complaints seemingly have been mostly made without a great deal of evidence as far as I can see, by which I mean a lot of them seem to be one word against another and that makes it very hard to prove and act upon as it would be in any office.

On the other hand Johnson has publicly made some racist remarks himself as well as homophobic slurs. My fear is that one thing is getting far more coverage than the other and that allows Labour supporters to rightly point towards a media bias.

This whole thing is a mess and the whole commentary of this election has become a hostile class war.

 

[Buster15]

This is just utter delusion. You're suggesting people actually take Boris at his word? That is called the definition of madness.

His word is worth absolutely nothing. And even yesterday we had yet another example of that.
Everyone could easily see Boris standing in the group of NATO leaders listening to and laughing with the Canadian leader gossiping about Trump.
But at the subsequent press conference, he claimed he knew nothing about it.
Quite simply a compulsive LIAR. Just what we want for a PM...

 

[Raven]

Where has Raab said that?

I often find this problem when debating people on the left of politics. So many believe that virtue is on their side, and therefore everyone else is in some kind of global conspiracy to keep the poor in chains, that political parties representing right wing economic views are evil. Its such a basic narrative, is based on false assumptions, and doesn't come close to capturing a complex reality. The world is a much easier place if you can mentally divide people and parties into good and evil, and pray for the good to win like a Disney movie. Life and politics isn't like that.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-trump-us-drugs-price-increase-a9230661.html

That because you're literally on the moral low ground. You're knowingly voting for a party that has killed the most vulnerable in society and is looking to do so for another 5 years. You're vote is a vote for the genocide of people in Yemen. Youre vote is a vote to maintain the oppression of the Palestinians.

I mean, you can vote Tory all you want, but don't try and say it's for moral reasons.

 

[Fiskey]

And that they have not.

Osbourne changed tack in 2012 as the cuts were going to bite too hard. To try and get rid of the deficit by 2014 was a stupid target.

 

[Raven]

His word is worth absolutely nothing. And even yesterday we had yet another example of that.
Everyone could easily see Boris standing in the group of NATO leaders listening to and laughing with the Canadian leader gossiping about Trump.
But at the subsequent press conference, he claimed he knew nothing about it.
Quite simply a compulsive LIAR. Just what we want for a PM...

I hate him. I don't hate many people, especially out of those I've never personally met, but Boris is just exceedingly hateable.

 

[Fiskey]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-trump-us-drugs-price-increase-a9230661.html

That because you're literally on the moral low ground. You're knowingly voting for a party that has killed the most vulnerable in society and is looking to do so for another 5 years. You're vote is a vote for the genocide of people in Yemen. Youre vote is a vote to maintain the oppression of the Palestinians.

I mean, you can vote Tory all you want, but don't try and say it's for moral reasons.

You're never going to be able to convince someone by arguing this way. Just saying I'm right again and again doesn't do it.

 

[Raven]

You're never going to be able to convince someone by arguing this way. Just saying I'm right again and again doesn't do it.

If the suffering of millions of people can't convince you, I know I can't.

 

[Raven]

You're never going to be able to convince someone by arguing this way. Just saying I'm right again and again doesn't do it.

Are you not going to mention the Raab comments by the way?

 

[esmufc07]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-trump-us-drugs-price-increase-a9230661.html

That because you're literally on the moral low ground. You're knowingly voting for a party that has killed the most vulnerable in society and is looking to do so for another 5 years. You're vote is a vote for the genocide of people in Yemen. Youre vote is a vote to maintain the oppression of the Palestinians.

I mean, you can vote Tory all you want, but don't try and say it's for moral reasons.

Were 2005 Labour voters voting for the continued killing of Iraqi civilians?

 

[Brwned]

If the suffering of millions of people can't convince you, I know I can't.

So if your objective isn't to convince people, what is it? Is it just to point out how how much better you are?

 

[Raven]

Were 2005 Labour voters voting for the continued killing of Iraqi civilians?

Whether you voted Labour or Tory, you were getting more killings in Iraq. But yes, you were. As I've said many times, new Labour certainly had their pros, but they were in the pockets of far too many vested interests for me to give them much credit, which led to deregulation and illegal wars.

 

[TheGame]

More lies.

 

[Raven]

So if your objective isn't to convince people, what is it? Is it just to point out how how much better you are?

I'm trying to see things from another perspective, so far, I haven't been able to engage in proper debate because any point he makes has been poor. I mean, he talks about simplifying things of great complexity, yet gives not insight as to what is so complex and why.

The is the exact response I get from most Tories, they try and justify their vote, but ultimately, it's because it benefits them. I mean if they were so morally outraged by Corbyn's "antisemitism", they couldn't possibly allow themselves to vote for Boris. If they were so outraged by Corbyn's "links" to terrorists, they couldn't possibly vote for the conservatives and their support of the Saudi regime, amongst others.

If you want to vote Tory, grand, you do you, but don't try and say it's a moral thing. It's not.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Boring. Why doesn't he try giving a little context? Because he wants gotcha moments that can go viral, plain and simple. This sort of shit is the reason British politics has gone down the tubes.

Sun Tzu should have a new tagline. The art of Guido.

 

[sammsky1]

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Oh dear.

it’s not clear at all - especially when we don’t even know what the potential leader of the country and future PM actually wants? If you could tell me what Corbyn wants to do, then I would consider it a clear position.

Boris - wants to leave with agreed deal.
Swinson - will revoke a50 on day one
Corbyn - will attempt to negotiate a deal, which will take how long? Allegedly 3 months, then have a referendum which will take another 6 months, and then maybe we will have an answer? Or maybe not?

It's very clear. Come on, it's clear that you are the one muddying that waters.

 

[Fiskey]

Are you not going to mention the Raab comments by the way?

It didn't seem to say anything new. US pharmaceutical firms can choose to raise their prices now if they want to, they don't because they want to be able to sell to the NHS. It seemed as if Raab was just making that point, we in Britain can't control how much US drug firms choose to price their drugs at, either now or in the future.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

The bacon sandwich is still talked about today. I don't think its anti-semitic because they put it on the front page before the election, they were highlighting to the readers that they didn't want a Milliband government.

Did you read the article? What are your thoughts on the point it raised?

As I said, it gained much more traction than it deserved across many media outlets over a long period of time.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Where has Raab said that?

I often find this problem when debating people on the left of politics. So many believe that virtue is on their side, and therefore everyone else is in some kind of global conspiracy to keep the poor in chains, that political parties representing right wing economic views are evil. Its such a basic narrative, is based on false assumptions, and doesn't come close to capturing a complex reality. The world is a much easier place if you can mentally divide people and parties into good and evil, and pray for the good to win like a Disney movie. Life and politics isn't like that.

this explains my thoughts perfectly. Especially prevalent in this thread.

 

[Raven]

It didn't seem to say anything new. US pharmaceutical firms can choose to raise their prices now if they want to, they don't because they want to be able to sell to the NHS. It seemed as if Raab was just making that point, we in Britain can't control how much US drug firms choose to price their drugs at, either now or in the future.

So you're saying the big pharma won't raise the prices given the opportunity? The opportunity of course being Brexit.

 

[sammsky1]

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

One thing I'm certainly not clear on - what happens if Labour dont get a deal from the EU that meets their requirements?

mans that’s the difference between Boris’ re-negotiation, which was 90% the same deal. Labours take on Brexit is totally different, and so thinking this can be done in 3 months is utter pie in the sky - and you are right, what happens if they don’t get what they want - and lets be frank, that’s an almost certainty. The current sea we have is clearly not the deal that the Tories wanted when they started this process.

their strategy is a mess, and all it does is present uncertainty - it’s pretty obvious a lot of the electorate want a clear direction on Brexit (whether that’s leave or remain). Labour have tried to appeal to everyone and in fact are appealing to hardly anyone (except the core supporters who would vote labour no matter what).

 

[nimic]

I often find this problem when debating people on the left of politics. So many believe that virtue is on their side, and therefore everyone else is in some kind of global conspiracy to keep the poor in chains, that political parties representing right wing economic views are evil. Its such a basic narrative, is based on false assumptions, and doesn't come close to capturing a complex reality. The world is a much easier place if you can mentally divide people and parties into good and evil, and pray for the good to win like a Disney movie. Life and politics isn't like that.

I read another post which had a pretty good response to this nonsense:

Its such a basic narrative, is based on false assumptions, and doesn't come close to capturing a complex reality.

 

[Fiskey]

Did you read the article? What are your thoughts on the point it raised?

As I said, it gained much more traction than it deserved across many media outlets over a long period of time.

I think people are overreacting because its Bacon and someone of Jewish decent. David Milliband had it with the Banana, John Major had it with he tucks his shirt into his underpants. When newspaper editors want to show someone as being weird, they pick up on something and push it till the cows come home. I don't understand it but I don't think it is antisemitism.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

So you're saying the big pharma won't raise the prices given the opportunity? The opportunity of course being Brexit.

surely he’s saying it’s out of the UK’s control, no matter what the political situation and no matter what the outcome of Brexit.

 

[Fiskey]

So you're saying the big pharma won't raise the prices given the opportunity? The opportunity of course being Brexit.

For them to be able to raise prices the UK government would have to prevent the NHS using its buying power in some way. The UK government will never do this.

 

[Pink Moon]

One thing I'm certainly not clear on - what happens if Labour dont get a deal from the EU that meets their requirements?

It's certainly a good question. It also applies to Boris though. What happens if he doesn't get a deal that meets their requirements? No deal Brexit would be disastrous.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I think people are overreacting because its Bacon and someone of Jewish decent. David Milliband had it with the Banana, John Major had it with he tucks his shirt into his underpants. When newspaper editors want to show someone as being weird, they pick up on something and push it till the cows come home. I don't understand it but I don't think it is antisemitism.

it was certainly not antisemitism. It was because he had a funny expression and looked a bit ridiculous - there’s really nothing kore to it than that. Unless of course we think that Rupert Murdock stages the photo..?

 

[CassiusClaymore]

More lies.

What a cnut that guy is.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

It's very clear. Come on, it's clear that you are the one muddying that waters.

mate you on the wind up?

just tell me what Corbyn’s Brexit position is - obviously I’ve missed it? Does Corbyn want the U.K. to stay in the EU or not?

 

[Raven]

For them to be able to raise prices the UK government would have to prevent the NHS using its buying power in some way. The UK government will never do this.

What are you talking about? Coming out of the EU with the Tories in charge destroys our negotiating position. A number of Tories have written about privatizing the NHS, Boris being amongst them. Are you still not connecting the dots?

 

[EwanI Ted]

More lies.

Holy shit that is brazen. Literally the opposite of what actually happened.

Also, when you look at that you realise what an incredible achievement the Supporting People programme was, introduced in 2003 to tackle homelessness.

 

[Pink Moon]

mate you on the wind up?

just tell me what Corbyn’s Brexit position is - obviously I’ve missed it? Does Corbyn want the U.K. to stay in the EU or not?

As far as I'm aware his position is they'll negotiate a deal with the EU then bring it back to the people and put it on the table vs remain in a referendum.

 

[Raven]

mate you on the wind up?

just tell me what Corbyn’s Brexit position is - obviously I’ve missed it? Does Corbyn want the U.K. to stay in the EU or not?

He's neutral, he's stated it a number of times. Not sure how you've missed it.

 

[esmufc07]

mate you on the wind up?

just tell me what Corbyn’s Brexit position is - obviously I’ve missed it? Does Corbyn want the U.K. to stay in the EU or not?

Haven’t you heard? We don’t need our potential PM to have a view on Brexit. By remaining neutral he can bring communities together in our post Brexit Utopia.

 

[Berbasbullet]

As far as I'm aware his position is they'll negotiate a deal with the EU then bring it back to the people and put it on the table vs remain in a referendum.

No, stop, it’s too complicated, my head hurts.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

mate you on the wind up?

just tell me what Corbyn’s Brexit position is - obviously I’ve missed it? Does Corbyn want the U.K. to stay in the EU or not?

Corbyn is a euro sceptic. it is well known. By why shouldn't a prime minister stay neutral and simply present the facts and then act in the way the vote goes? that makes absolutely perfect sense to me. It also tells me that despite Corbyn be a very well known euro sceptic, he would still remain in the EU if that is the way it goes.

I mean, isn't that what a politician is supposed to do?

 

[Fiskey]

I'm trying to see things from another perspective, so far, I haven't been able to engage in proper debate because any point he makes has been poor. I mean, he talks about simplifying things of great complexity, yet gives not insight as to what is so complex and why.

The is the exact response I get from most Tories, they try and justify their vote, but ultimately, it's because it benefits them. I mean if they were so morally outraged by Corbyn's "antisemitism", they couldn't possibly allow themselves to vote for Boris. If they were so outraged by Corbyn's "links" to terrorists, they couldn't possibly vote for the conservatives and their support of the Saudi regime, amongst others.

If you want to vote Tory, grand, you do you, but don't try and say it's a moral thing. It's not.

For my family unit, the Labour parties policies would be brilliant. My Mum is a Waspi, she would get £15k. My Dad is much more elderly, and on housing benefit, so I'm sure would be better off. My girlfriend's job pays well under the £80k on which income tax would be raised and there is no prospect of that changing. I work for myself and do absolutely nothing in the UK, I trade purely internationally, so I could easily move if I wanted to if I felt the tax was too high. I have many friends in Hong Kong, Dubai and Australia and family elsewhere who have taken just that step.

I know you find it hard to believe, but not everything is about self-interest. My personal finances would not be much affected by a Labour government, my families would probably hugely benefit. I think that a Corbyn government would lead to much more poverty in the UK over a 20 year time horizon than a Conservative one.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

No, stop, it’s too complicated, my head hurts.

I don't get peoples confusion on the matter, it is so very simple and also the most logical position to take on the subject.

It's like asking Mike Dean which team he wanted to win last night.

 

[EwanI Ted]

It's certainly a good question. It also applies to Boris though. What happens if he doesn't get a deal that meets their requirements? No deal Brexit would be disastrous.

By "deal" I guess I really mean the withdrawal agreement, which is what Labour mean when they talk about getting a good deal, rather than a trade deal down the line.

Labour say they'll put their withdrawal agreement (ie deal) to a referendum, but that assumes they can get a good one. They've actually downgraded their red lines in the manifesto - no more reference to "exact same benefits" as single market membership for example - but its still not certain they'll achieve what they set out to do. And if they dont, what then?