From what I've seen of Bohui and Chong they need more time at this level.Gribbin Dearnley and Buffonge perhaps.When Chong and Burkart come back next week plus Barlow and Bohui from injuries we would have problem fitting them to a side.
U18s: Manchester United vs. Middlesbrough
- Thread starter khoazany
- Start date
From what I've seen of Bohui and Chong they need more time at this level.Gribbin Dearnley and Buffonge perhaps.When Chong and Burkart come back next week plus Barlow and Bohui from injuries we would have problem fitting them to a side.
U16s won 3-2 against Boro with goals from Callum Dolanx2 and Kieron Ceesay.Heard the standouts were Laird,Levitt and Bughail-Mellor.
Post Match Analysis
What about Bukhart ? Seems quite good.
LB maybe? and CM seems weak link of this team looking at that. Particularly that deep CM role. Gomes can play as 8 but ideally with someone more defensively adept as 10 than Gribbin. Puts quite lot of load on Whelan who is good but not in class of some of the others there.
Very impressed with this u18 side. Looks like it could potentially be one of the best we've had. Not sure if it would be better to promote some of the most talented to the struggling u23s or to keep them all together to progress as a team. I at least think Gribbin is ready for the u23s and could be useful there now Pereira's gone on loan. Angel Gomes is one of the most talented youngsters I've seen. Really looking forward to seeing him progress. I like what I've seen of Boonen too. Very direct winger. Looking forward to seeing Ro-Shaun tested at a higher level.
EDIT: Thought Kanu looked like a useful poacher today also. Hope he joins permanently.
EDIT: Thought Kanu looked like a useful poacher today also. Hope he joins permanently.
He was already an u21 regular last season. Or do you mean you want to see him in first team football because he already looked class for the u21s.
The main reason McGuinness was sacked based on my understanding was that he criticised some people behind the scenes for lack of ambition and scouting...rather than his results which have been excellent over his tenure.
The issues with the Academy (some of which still exist), are being addressed slowly by Nicky Butt is actually what McGuinness suggested.
To say Butt booted Paul Mc out is actually totally wrong as Nicky wasn't involved in that decision. As a consequence we were without a full time U/18 coach for six months. if it was a planned process an alternative would have been in place immediately. The whole thing was badly managed and personally I think Paul was made a scapegoat.
Andy Mitten most likely knew some of the behind the scenes politics that exist.
Having said all that I am hearing really good things about Kieran McKenna.
No, I mean first team football, not immediately or anything but he looks great to me and I want to see how he can handle playing against more experienced players. A Championship loan next season could be good for him imo. For this season I'd be content to just see him playing regularly for the u23s.
Buffonge and Gomes seem to have a really good understanding.
Ah ok, I'd fully agree with you. If Axel is the one that is going to be in and around the first team this season then I'd even think about loaning Williams in January depending on how soon he gets back from injury. I just don't rate the standard of level in the u23s and think he was already at the top of it last season. I want to see faster progression and our top talents continuously pushed to a higher level.
Alright, thanks for the insight. You obviously know more than me, so I was wrong in my previous statement.
Wasn't it less than a year ago that they were writing the obituary for our youth academies?
Mensah, Tuanzebe, Williams, Pereira, Gribben, Gomes, Chong, Rashford, etc, etc, all seems pretty hunky dory to me.
Mensah, Tuanzebe, Williams, Pereira, Gribben, Gomes, Chong, Rashford, etc, etc, all seems pretty hunky dory to me.
The current under 23s/under 21s are one of the weaker groups I can remember with no real stars in it. Most have left already, and I don't see any of Goss, Willock, Harrop etc. making it at United. Riley might have the best chance but it's odds against even for him.
The current under 18s, by contrast, look good.
The current under 18s, by contrast, look good.
Not writing an obituary but asking questions about what needed to be done.
Nicky Butt is now dealing with many of those issues.
It will take 2/3 years to get back on track but we will always bring players through.
Do you not think that in the 20 days McKenna has been here we have looked so much better? I think this appointment shows what the top level is and a lot of long term friends of the club have gotten far too comfortable and secure in their positions. We needed a cull IMO and I have nothing personal against Paul Mc but he wasn't a top coach and we need top coaches. We need to be more ruthless in moving on playing and coaching staff throughout the club.
You really have no idea how good a coach McGuiness was or even how good McKenna is. The honest truth is that McKenna has a better set of players, especially offensively. The confidence from the Everton game carried over to this one.
Paul McGuiness did a fantastic job with U18 and from what we can see(and thats not much) he was a top coach, anybody who says otherwise obviously doesnt know much or just doesnt follow youth football and only links McGuiness with that losing streak from last year.
Exactly
McKenna arrived last Wednesday or Thursday so has got off to a good start. He is well thought of so I'm happy to have the opportunity of seeing what he can do.
Looking better?
We looked great at Everton before he came...he has a good crop of players which McGuinness didn't have recently.
Saying Paul MC isn't a good/top coach is ridiculous. Having spoken to parents, players and people at other clubs he was often referred to as innovative.
His record in terms of players through and trophies won is equally impressive.
In general terms I have no issue getting the best into the club...Paul didn't leave the club because he suddenly became a bad coach.
I do agree that there is an element of 'old boys network' at the club. This can be a positive and a negative...glad Nicky Butt (old boy) seems to be working it all out.
Such an exciting group of players, it's amazing considering the state of the U18's last season.
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apologies, 20 days was a typo, should have said 10. He started working with the lads before the Everton game and for this game. We have looked so much better in so many ways.
Clearly we have a different opinion of McGuiness. I think he was an ok coach but not a good one. Our teams always lacked cohesion going forwards and that cannot be blamed on a lack of quality players. We had a very good ball playing team last season yet we were so disjointed going forwards and disorganized in everything bar defending. The work rate was also no where near what I saw in the last match (wish I could have seen the Everton game too but I imagine it was the same given the scoreline). RS Williams, CBJ, Gribbin, Rashford, Gomes, Boonen, Dearnley were in the squad last season and I see no reason we couldn't implement the same cohesive attacking unit we saw today and probably against Everton. I don't agree with your assessment of it being the players' quality tbh or "confidence" as you put it and I could see a massive change in our on and off ball game today from McGuiness' sides. Work rate, the way players ran off eachother, their awareness on the pitch and the way they use the width of the pitch has changed/improved hugely and it can't be a coincidence.
I was also very dissapointed with the way Rothwell and Pearson developed under him. They essentially plataued after 16 for the most part, though I have to admit Rothwells lack of progress was mostly down to his hamstring issues. I would have loved to have seen Rothwell and Pearson organized in the same way we were organized today. Rothwell especially would have thrived in the one-two touch football we played today.
I also don't see Pauls McG's youth record as that impressive given the talent we've had in the academy. Lingard developed more through his loans and with LVG, he was never ready from his U18 times and was usually on the bench. Will Keane was doing well with him until his injury, I'll give him that. He's decent with strikers as Wilson did well under him too. Ravel and Pogba broke through on talent alone. Ravels roblems are well known and IMO Pogba's development was very little to do with McGuiness either, he was always going to be a top player from the time we signed him at 15. Daehli and Pereira, despite their immense talent didn't develop much under him which is a real let down tbh as they are by all accounts hard workers and intelligent kids. Januzaj also played very few games with the U18s before being promoted to the U21s, especially given his long injury. Ravel looked like McGuiness hadn't coached him at all and would just dribble whenever and wherever he felt like going.
My point is, I bet you could put a hell of a lot of other youth coaches in this country In McGuiness's position through his time at the club and they would easily match him. We had better players than a lot of other acadamies in an indivualistic basis, but we never really dominated teams until the last couple of games (assuming from the scoreline it was a similar game to the one today) when McKenna joined. I don't think it's a coincidence and IMO this is a big upgrade on McGuiness given what I've seen so far.
I think you are giving someone far too much credit for very little work done so far and your assessment of Ravel is rather odd, and some of the other players you've mentioned.
It's great to have some optimism around after a couple of good results, but things can change quickly and rushing to conclusions too quickly is never wise.
It's great to have some optimism around after a couple of good results, but things can change quickly and rushing to conclusions too quickly is never wise.
He didn't start working with the lads before the Everton game he just came in and met everyone. I don't know what team you were watching last season if you thought we looked disjointed going forward and organized defensively. We played some really good football last season but were a complete shambles and often conceded 2/3 goals in the space of a few minutes. CBJ wasn't under 18 last season. Writing off players development under a manager by saying they came through on talent alone or that they were always going to be a top player is ridiculous and could be said about any talented player who shows early promise and develops well. Your assessment of Morrison doesn't make sense considering his game intelligence was one of his best qualities. McKenna could turn out to be an amazing coach who gets us back to winning ways and lets hope he us but ignoring the influence of people who have coached many of these players for years and giving all the credit to a coach who has been working with the team for 5 days is extremely premature at best.
Hopefully they have a full replay of next week game (seems it clashes with the derby)
Players don't play for a manager/coach they don't respect.
His record in winning leagues and cups suggest otherwise.
It sounds as if you have an agenda against him.
Basically anyone someone doesn't like can be described as poor or unimpressive and just credit the talent. Of course if we didn't win anything then you would probably blame the coach too! Not sure you can have it both ways.
However as always you are entitled to your opinion...
In one word. Disagree
Wow! Two on a trot. Well done to the U18's. Some really good play there by the youngsters. Really like some of the dribbles in that video.
Also, is it my imagination or our lads way smaller than the Middlesbrough players. A lot of their players looked huge compared to our smaller players, not that it mattered as clearly outplayed them.
I have no agenda (and no proper reason to have one) against him I just don't think he was a very good coach. Winning things isn't the halmark of a good youth coach or even good players to an extent IMO and many on here have repeated that every time we lose (which is more often than we should given our talent recruitment and talent already here through the years), it's getting the best out of the players he has which he failed to do bar our strikers. We also haven't won a whole lot compared to our rivals at this level. The same applies in reverse i.e. a coach can be made to look better than he is by crediting the wins and not how players have developed under him, which for me is the main measure. We regularly poach the best talents in Europe yet none of them have progressed as planned (obviously McGuiness is only a part of that, but a big part). I've wanted a full shake up for a long time. Joyce is a good coach IMO but I'd like to see him replaced too. Someone more progressive in footbal, crafting attacks in the way I saw yesterday. We can do better. When he was linked with a managers job in the championship I was really hopinh he'd go there.
I'd prefer appointments are made purely on merit and that Butt was given the job because he was the best man for the job rather than for the clubs Co92 image. I won't go into my opinions on Giggs' appointment as assistant manager but you can probably guess my thoughts on that. Butt will do well I think anyway, he's lucky to be in a position where investments are being made and things can only really improve so it's very likely he will do well.
Last season I saw a big organized flat back four for the most part that were extremely diffcult to break down, but no much going forward at all bar Gribbin in midfield. We weren't the very best team in the league but we were very very far from having the worst and the bottom team. I agree football intelligence was a key attribute of Ravels but he preferred not to use it and would make whichever runs made him look best. You can't deny that surely? Perhaps I shouldn't have said top player but Ravel played for West Ham without much effort at all, now he's slid because he's not trainig to improve. He got there out of talent alone. Pogba put a lot more effort in but the principle is the same. Players with that much ability can cruise for a time and still breakthrough. Januzaj has a dreadfull attitude now which I don't think a lot of people realize here. I was told by a mate that he got dropped as a brand ambassador for his company a few years ago because his attitude was shocking and we have tried to sell him since then, but he's happy taking his money and staying. Jose seems to have put him in his place this season which has hopefully given him a kick up the backside. He's at Sunderland despite only having less than 1 proper season of mens football and being known to have a terrible attitude. He gets there on talent alone.
I stand by what I said previously. Forgetting individual quality, I've never seen (this season or since I can remember) our U18s so organized on a pitch or craft attacks so intelligenctly as I did yesterday and it's no coincidence IMO. 1 week plus of training is a good amount of time to impose ideas, i've seen them and am wondering why I haven't seen this level of football before under McGuiness. He seemed to give the YC winning side free reign (Ravel in particular) to do what they wanted and they won through individual talent nearly every time. He did the same with Gribbin last year to an extent and to the detriment of the team IMO. This team is a unit, every single player touches the ball, it's so much different and I can't beleive i'm the only one that sees that, regardless of whether anyone thinks McGuiness was a good coach or not.
Like you said, time will tell, but i've got a feeling that Mckenna will show us what it is to be a top level youth coach. Manchester United is as good a gig as any for a coach when you can bring in world class talent like Rossi, Pereira, Petrucci, Pogba, Daehli, Januzaj and countless others over the years he's been here. He seemed a good bloke but I believe we have only 1(?) FAYC in his time here and a lot of these world class talents have disappeared. Surely I'm not the only one on this forum not in awe of McGuiness' work given the tools he had?
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I don't think a coach can ever be successful by your logic. If a player is doing well: we all knew he's destined for success i.e Rashford, even though it was McGuiness' decision to nurture him upfront. Whereas, if a player fails to live up to the premature expectations i.e Macheda, it's again McGuiness' fault, even though he did well at that level.
I don't blame McGuiness, you only have to look at the U23's now to see the issues that he had to face which have been carried over from his squad to Joyce's, it's quite funny now how you're turning your attention to replacing Warren Joyce ffs... The U23's now have an unbalanced team with no real strikers and thin on wingers and fullbacks. Surprising, isn't it?
I like what I'm seeing from McKenna also but to deem McGuiness' accomplishments as meaningless is ridiculous.
I don't blame McGuiness, you only have to look at the U23's now to see the issues that he had to face which have been carried over from his squad to Joyce's, it's quite funny now how you're turning your attention to replacing Warren Joyce ffs... The U23's now have an unbalanced team with no real strikers and thin on wingers and fullbacks. Surprising, isn't it?
I like what I'm seeing from McKenna also but to deem McGuiness' accomplishments as meaningless is ridiculous.
Amazed that somebody can write that much about a topic they have no real way of knowing much about. So much guess work. You can find ways to justify just about any opinion with enough effort. I disagree with a lot of what you said there but I don't think there's any point in arguing with somebody who can form such strong opinions based on so little. I'll leave that to the others.
I can't see how anyone could have watched last seasons u18s concede 62 goals in 31 games and describe the defence as organized and extremely difficult to break down. No I don't think Ravel just chose to make whichever runs made him look best and would have to question how much you actually saw of him if this is what you think. He completely controlled the pace of games at times and very rarely just went on dribbles just for the sake of making himself look good. The team played this way last week against Everton before McKenna came in which you seem intent on ignoring because it doesn't suit your view. I'm not in any way in awe of McGuinness I just don't see much sense in writing off the good things he's done because of 1 positive result under a new manager especially when the team was made up of a number of players he helped develop.
Well I've been following the youth teams since 08, so I've seen McGuiness' teams over the last 8 years and feel that gives me a fairly decent basis for my argument...
Anytime I don't watch The U18s, we win.
I'm sticking to highlights.
I'm sticking to highlights.
The last 2 seasons have merged into one for me, but Our backline has been solid for the last 2 years. It's what happens in front of them that which causes the goals conceded. According to the DM (who broke this story first) Mckenna has been actively working at the ground since Thursday 25th. Given the dramatic change in style and performance I am going to assume this is true. Who told you he's only been meeting people?
During Paul McGuinness' reign at United here is his record...although I may have missed one or two things.
60 players have made the first team squad.
20 have made full international debut
2005/06 -
2006/07 - FA Youth Cup FINALISTS
2007/08 - Champions Youth Cup WINNERS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup FINALISTS
2008/09 - Claudio Sassi Cup WINNERS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
2009/10 - Wout van Overdam Youth Tournament WINNERS
- Claudio Sassi Cup WINNERS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
- FA Premier Academy North Group C WINNERS
2010/11 - Claudio Sassi Cup FINALISTS
- FA Youth Cup WINNERS
2011/12 - Dallas Cup FINALISTS
- AEGON Future Cup FINALISTS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup FINALISTS
- FA Youth Cup SEMI-FINALISTS
2012/13 - FA Premier Academy North WINNERS
2013/14 - Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
2014/15 - Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
Obviously over the last few seasons the talent has been mixed with little in the way of excellence in the 14-16 group (apart from a handful of individuals) which is what Nicky Butt has been brought in to address.
You can always argue that a manager/coach should have won more (Fergie in Europe?)...but I can't believe that McGuinness' successes have been down to brilliant teams or poor opponents and it had nothing to do with his leadership.
60 players have made the first team squad.
20 have made full international debut
2005/06 -
2006/07 - FA Youth Cup FINALISTS
2007/08 - Champions Youth Cup WINNERS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup FINALISTS
2008/09 - Claudio Sassi Cup WINNERS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
2009/10 - Wout van Overdam Youth Tournament WINNERS
- Claudio Sassi Cup WINNERS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
- FA Premier Academy North Group C WINNERS
2010/11 - Claudio Sassi Cup FINALISTS
- FA Youth Cup WINNERS
2011/12 - Dallas Cup FINALISTS
- AEGON Future Cup FINALISTS
- Northern Ireland Milk Cup FINALISTS
- FA Youth Cup SEMI-FINALISTS
2012/13 - FA Premier Academy North WINNERS
2013/14 - Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
2014/15 - Northern Ireland Milk Cup WINNERS
Obviously over the last few seasons the talent has been mixed with little in the way of excellence in the 14-16 group (apart from a handful of individuals) which is what Nicky Butt has been brought in to address.
You can always argue that a manager/coach should have won more (Fergie in Europe?)...but I can't believe that McGuinness' successes have been down to brilliant teams or poor opponents and it had nothing to do with his leadership.
I was at the game yesterday and wow that was fun even in such terrible conditions........another great result and to play so impressive (Dominating, attacking football, nice football and well organized) is hopefully that level we will see in the most games in the future.
And the team can only look better if Warren, Burkart, Chong and Bohui are soon back.
We've played a real striker in the last two games and we've scored 10 goals + our game in the attack has looked so much better
My best XI: Moutha-Sebtaoui - O'Connor, Warren, Dunne/Ercolani, Hamilton - Gomes, Whelan; Chong, Buffonge, Boonen - Burkart
And the team can only look better if Warren, Burkart, Chong and Bohui are soon back.
We've played a real striker in the last two games and we've scored 10 goals + our game in the attack has looked so much better
In my opinion Gribbin and Williams shouldn't play in the league for the U18's.....the same for Dearnley.
My best XI: Moutha-Sebtaoui - O'Connor, Warren, Dunne/Ercolani, Hamilton - Gomes, Whelan; Chong, Buffonge, Boonen - Burkart
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Well the last 2 seasons at u18 level have been very different both in terms of personnel and performance so if you think they were similar that says a lot. Him joining was well known to many before the Mail wrote a story about it and Stephen Howson even had it on 1 of his videos well before the Mail story about it. He started working with them on Monday. Why would I put who told me on a public forum? I'd never get any information again. You seem intent on twisting things and stating things which are just plain wrong as if they are facts to suit your point of view so there's not much point in me replying to you
Meh, I'm talking about the Williams, Tuanzebe, Reid etc group from recent experience. You don't need to follow every match to see how a coach sets up. Whether or not the mail new about it first is not what I wastrying to say, the mail were the first to print a detailed article on him saying he actively started working on the Thursday but only officially starting on the Monday. My reasoning is logically thought out and I'm not twisting any facts as you are suggesting. We looked a completely different unit yesterday and its logical to assume that he was (as the mail said) actively involved from Thursday and not Monday. Maybe that's not the case and its Tomny Martins influence but I wouldn't change my opinion on McGuiness' coaching prowess based on whether McKenna was working then or not. Let me be clear, I don't think he's a bad coach I just don't think he's a good one for the reasons I stated before.
Strange that your contact would be worried about you saying something that has already been in the press.
You seem a good decent lad who follows the academy closer than I do. But I've yet to see you post a single thing critical of our academy or the coaching and have regularly seen you get angry at people who post critical comments towards the academy. That also says a lot to me.
It's widely acknowledged we have fallen behind our rivals and we need to get back ahead of the pack. I thought Nick Butts comments were interesting where he talked about not standing still and I think despite him voicing the opposite (saying we were constantly improving) he was subtly implying we have stood still for a long time. Replacing McGuiness with a more modern style progressive and attacking coach is a good start.
Why get angry or feed the negativity, when the faults with the academy have been recognised like you yourself said and are being corrected? Despite the failings, the academy is not as bad as the media would have you believe, which is where a lot of your opinion seems to come from. Stop being silly.
What would suggest I'm angry. The media have not covered our academy a lot from what I've seen. Make no mistake, Chelsea and City are ahead of us in the lower age groups and the margin is considerable. Hopefully this is the start of that being corrected.