Turkey

Is it possible for the Turkish Parliament to hold a vote of confidence on Erdogan? I don't know if the Constitution allows for it after reforms.

Given the scale of the protests, would it not be better for the ruling party to boot him than to risk a coup?
 
Nah - 3-4 days of protests, no real violence the last 24 hours, and only a couple of ppl killed. No PM is going to resign off the back of that.
 
He's not going anywhere. There were millions out on the street protesting in 2007. If anything, it spurred Erdogan to get rid of influential generals and shut media sources. Democratically, of course.
 
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"Revolution will not be televised; it will be tweeted"
 
Thousands greet defiant Erdogan

Turkey's prime minister again ratchets up rhetoric against protesters on his return to Istanbul
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Tayyip Erdogan waves to supporters after arriving in Istanbul early on Friday morning. Photograph: Osman Orsal/Reuters
Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has delivered a fiery speech on his return to the country, telling supporters who thronged to greet him that the protests that have swept the country must end.
In the first large public show of support since anti-government protests erupted last week, more than 10,000 supporters cheered Erdogan outside an Istanbul airport.
Despite earlier comments that suggested he could be softening his stand, Erdogan was in combative mood on his return from a four-day trip to North Africa.
"These protests that are bordering on illegality must come to an end immediately," he said.
Erdogan's reaction has been seen as decisive in determining whether the demonstrations fizzle out or rage on.
"Those who raise their hands against the police should have their hands broken," his supporters chanted. Rights groups say thousands of people have been injured in the demonstrations. Three people have died – two protesters and a policeman.
"We stood strong, but we were never stubborn ... We are together, we are unified, we are brothers," Erdogan told his supporters, who had blocked roads to the airport for hours, waiting for him until long after midnight.
"They say I am the prime minister of only 50%. It's not true. We have served the whole of the 76m from the east to the west," Erdogan said at the airport, referring to his election win in 2011, when he took 50% of the vote.
Speaking before leaving Tunisia, Erdogan had attempted more of a balancing act, appearing to moderate his tone in an effort not to further inflame protesters.
Erdogan acknowledged that some Turks were involved in the protests out of environmental concerns, and said he had "love and respect" for them.
The protests started last week over objections to Erdogan's plan to uproot the square's Gezi Park to make way for a replica Ottoman barracks and shopping mall. Police's extensive use of tear gas and water cannons outraged many and sent thousands flooding into the square to support what had, until then, been a small protest.
In Tunisisa, Erdogan claimed terrorists had been involved in the protests, saying an outlawed left-wing militant group that carried out a suicide bombing on the US embassy in Ankara in February was taking part.
"They are involved. They have been caught in the streets and on social media," he said.

As expected, he isn't really backing down anytime soon.
 
Interesting watching these protests play out in a democratic state, as opposed to states ruled by unelected tyrants (Syria, Libya etc). I would think that given him representing an elected majority block, Erdogan would have more leverage to pull the law on his site than would the dictators.
 
This probably has no relation at all to the Arab Spring, for those exact reasons (and a little bit because they aren't Arabs, I guess). It's also what makes it so hard to predict what could come out of this. What is certain is that his disastrous handling of the situation has time and time again lead to increased support for the protests. He called social media the biggest threat to society, for crying out loud.

He done fecked up.
 
Interesting watching these protests play out in a democratic state, as opposed to states ruled by unelected tyrants (Syria, Libya etc). I would think that given him representing an elected majority block, Erdogan would have more leverage to pull the law on his site than would the dictators.


:) The difference is not in the government response, the difference lies in the foreign intervention.

So far it has only been peaceful protests, with no foreign fighters involved, or anybody among the protestors raising a gun. Still, thousands of protestors are injured so far, in Erdogan's brutal attempts to stop the peaceful protests, and choke the opposition. He even banned facebook and twitter! Wasn't Iran criticized for restricting internet access during the 2009 protests?

As I said before, arm those 200,000 people Erdogan was talking about, and send 50,000 Al-Qaeda fighters to fight along them, and the pictures could become even worse than Syria and Libya.
 
I don't think there's any chance at all of Turkey becoming another Islamic dictatorship. The majority that is voting Erdogan in might be conservative, even reactionary in many cases, but there's no evidence that they want to turn their country in to Iran.
 
I don't think there's any chance at all of Turkey becoming another Islamic dictatorship. The majority that is voting Erdogan in might be conservative, even reactionary in many cases, but there's no evidence that they want to turn their country in to Iran.

I'm not going to theorize about what might happen in Turkey, and what are Erdogan's plans. Even though I'm not excluding the possibility of Turkey turning into another dictatorship (the majority doesn't necessarily mean you're not headed in that direction, Morsi has won the elections in Egypt (by a fine margin) but there is little doubt which direction Egypt is headed at the moment)..

However, I was merely pointing out to the fact that the difference between the scenes in Syria and Turkey are down to the difference in the foreign intervention in both cases, rather than Erdogan being the "nice guy" and the "symbol of democracy and freedom" in the region. How can you even say that after seeing what happened in the last few days?!
 
How can I say the thing which I at no point said? You're not debating me, you're debating the straw man you created.

Personally I don't see any real similarities between the situations in Turkey and Syria.
 
Yeah completely different scenarios. Turkey is the first of the regional countries that has a democratic system, which gives Erdogan a public mandate to preserve the peace. Dictators like Assad and Qaddafi are ostensibly in power by force and never had a popular mandate to preserve the peace, other than simply initiating a brutal crackdown to remain in power.
 
Yeah completely different scenarios. Turkey is the first of the regional countries that has a democratic system, which gives Erdogan a public mandate to preserve the peace. Dictators like Assad and Qaddafi are ostensibly in power by force and never had a popular mandate to preserve the peace, other than simply initiating a brutal crackdown to remain in power.
First, so if you win the elections you're allowed to do what Erdogan did? Ok, no problem, but then you have to apply the same logic when you talk about the 2009 protests in Iran too. Deal?

And second, "preseve the peace"... Yeah, definitely, these criminals are a major threat for peace in Turkey. Can you see the white (nuclear?) bomb this girl in red is holding?

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Danny, that's all just rhetoric. Raoul didn't say that the police were justified in their reactions to initially non-violent protests. I'm willing to bet he doesn't think they were. But the situations are still completely different. Erdogan, warts and all, was democratically elected, Assad was not. We're also dealing with completely different levels here. Thousands may be injured in Turkey, and some even killed, but tens of thousands have been killed in Syria.

Comparing the two isn't a useful exercise.
 
Danny, that's all just rhetoric. Raoul didn't say that the police were justified in their reactions to initially non-violent protests. I'm willing to bet he doesn't think they were. But the situations are still completely different. Erdogan, warts and all, was democratically elected, Assad was not. We're also dealing with completely different levels here. Thousands may be injured in Turkey, and some even killed, but tens of thousands have been killed in Syria.

Comparing the two isn't a useful exercise.
That's not a logical comparison.

The conflict in Turkey has been going for only a week. In Syria, it has been going for more than two years.
In Turkey the protestors didn't raise a gun. In Syria, it's practically a war.
In Turkey there haven't been a signficant foreign intervention. In Syria many countries have invested a lot of money, sent all kind of weapons, and sent tens of thousands of fighters to topple Assad.

How do you expect the casualties to be similar?! That was actually my point.. If we do what was done in Syria (on the opposition side, including the foreign intervention), you'll see tens of thousands die in Turkey too. The key difference between Turkey and Syria IMO is not Erdogan's reaction (like Raoul is trying to suggest), but it's the other side of the equation. The opposition in Turkey has been truly peaceful, and they aren't supported by anybody from the outside.

Also I don't like the double standards used when assessing the situation in Turkey now, and in Iran in 2009. I'm fine with whatever stance you take, but you have to be consistent.
 
But see, I don't agree with the premise that the two "conflicts" are comparable to begin with. You say "if we do what was done in Syria, you'll see tens of thousands die in Turkey too", but that just seems like a pointless comment. Of course "we" aren't going to do the same as in Syria, because the two situations aren't anything alike. This is not the beginnings of a civil war. At worst it could eventually topple the government, which is honestly not that unusual in European democracies, even if it usually happens without quite so much gas.

I just don't understand your point.
 
There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between what is happening in Syria and what is happening in Turkey.
 
One is a civil war and the other is a series of protests starting from a small protest over plans to build a shopping mall in place of a park. This has more in common with Occupy Wall Street than Syria.

Saying they are both unhappy people protesting against their government is absurdly simplistic.
 
But see, I don't agree with the premise that the two "conflicts" are comparable to begin with. You say "if we do what was done in Syria, you'll see tens of thousands die in Turkey too", but that just seems like a pointless comment. Of course "we" aren't going to do the same as in Syria, because the two situations aren't anything alike. This is not the beginnings of a civil war. At worst it could eventually topple the government, which is honestly not that unusual in European democracies, even if it usually happens without quite so much gas.

I just don't understand your point.


My point is: What we're seeing in Turkey today is different from what we're seeing in Syria. Raoul tried to credit Erdogan for his reaction to the protests as the reason for that difference. My point was that the difference is not down to Erodgan's reaction, but to the difference in the nature of the protests (peaceful), and the lack of foreign agenda and support in it.

And when I say "if we do what was done in Syria", I mean mainly what was done by Qatar, Saudia Arabia, and partially Turkey (and of course Al-Qaeda) as they were the major players behind the escalation of the Syrian conflict..
 
One is a civil war and the other is a series of protests starting from a small protest over plans to build a shopping mall in place of a park. This has more in common with Occupy Wall Street than Syria.

Saying they are both unhappy people protesting against their government is absurdly simplistic.


Syria is probably headed now for a civil war, but to say that it started as civil war is simply not the truth. IMO at least. They didn't start by killing people from other sects in their homes. They started as protests against Assad. However, when Saudia Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, and Al-Qaeda intervened, things started to change.

And even though the protests started in Turkey to protest against building the mall, it was very clear that the bigger message it carried was that they want Erdogan to step down, and the park was just a trigger. These are by the way not the first protests against Erdogan in the past 10 years, even though they might be the fiercest.
 
:wenger: Both are basically unhappy people protesting against their government.


One was democratically elected (regardless of what people may think about his way of leading), one is and has always been a minority dictator.

And the protests in Syria did start like this, like Egypt, like Tunisia (and like Libya as well I guess). However, unlike Egypt and Tunisia, Assad then deployed the army and started beating the shit out of the protesters. I think Syria has now unfortunately been completely hijacked by nutters but it started out with good intentions and only started to become violent (and foreign money started to flow in) after Assad had already tried to crush the uprising like his father had done a few decades ago.

When Erdogan calls in the army and starts bombarding the people in Gezi park, then we can compare them.

The other major difference of course is that if these protesters don't like Erdogan, they can go out and lobby and help get his opposition into power in the next elections. Turkey isn't a perfect democracy by any stretch but it still has fair elections. In Syria, if the protestors didn't like Assad, what then? More Assad. And what do you think Assad would have done to the protesters had they dispersed. Do you think Assad would have left them be? And do you think Erdogan will send in the secret services after this to round up all these protesters (though his language is unbecoming of a leader of a country).

I do however think Erdogan is a bit of dick, regardless of the achievements he's been able to do in the past 10 years. A shame all these Turks protesting now didn't say anything about the Kurds earlier on but can't have everything I suppose.
 
One was democratically elected (regardless of what people may think about his way of leading), one is and has always been a minority dictator.

And the protests in Syria did start like this, like Egypt, like Tunisia (and like Libya as well I guess). However, unlike Egypt and Tunisia, Assad then deployed the army and started beating the shit out of the protesters. I think Syria has now unfortunately been completely hijacked by nutters but it started out with good intentions and only started to become violent (and foreign money started to flow in) after Assad had already tried to crush the uprising like his father had done a few decades ago.

When Erdogan calls in the army and starts bombarding the people in Gezi park, then we can compare them.

When the protestors start carrying guns and Erdogan thinks he will need the army this time to stop the protests he will do it. Assad didn't bomb the protestors when they were just "peaceful".

The other major difference of course is that if these protesters don't like Erdogan, they can go out and lobby and help get his opposition into power in the next elections.


I think you're starting to miss the point. We're not comparing here the two governments in Turkey and Syria. We're comparing Erdogan's reaction to Assad's reaction to the protests. We're comparing the nature of the protests in Turkey to the protests in Syria.

Look at what's happening in Egypt for example. Morsi also got to power through "elections", but he's showing a worse reaction to the protests than Mobarak. The fact that Morsi has been "democratically elected" has nothing to do with the fact that he crushed the protests in a worse manner than Mobarak who "wasn't democratically elected". Those are two separate issues you're trying to mix up here.
 
When the protestors start carrying guns and Erdogan thinks he will need the army this time to stop the protests he will do it. Assad didn't bomb the protestors when they were just "peaceful".




I think you're starting to miss the point. We're not comparing here the two governments in Turkey and Syria. We're comparing Erdogan's reaction to Assad's reaction to the protests. We're comparing the nature of the protests in Turkey to the protests in Syria.

Look at what's happening in Egypt for example. Morsi also got to power through "elections", but he's showing a worse reaction to the protests than Mobarak. The fact that Morsi has been "democratically elected" has nothing to do with the fact that he crushed the protests in a worse manner than Mobarak who "wasn't democratically elected". Those are two separate issues you're trying to mix up here.


He wasn't using fighter jets and artillery when they were peaceful but his response certainly went well above that of Mubarak and Ben Ali at the beginning and was more akin to Gadaffi's. He certainly was using the army even early on.

I'm not missing the point. Their style of government is fundamental to their response. I expect a protest against Obama to go very differently to a protest vs Putin for example.


This isn't true at all. Morsi is a dickhead and there's still a lot of problems with freedom as Egypt tries to work out its post revolution identity. but I'm not really on board with the whole hyerbole thing.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2013/06/03/egypt-sees-5544-demonstrations-in-first-5-months-of-2013-report/
5544 protests in the first 5 months of the year. Average of 42 protests a day and 2 per hour. The most protests in the world by a distance. I don't know about you but that doesn't seem like crushing them to me. How many protests do you think there were in total during Mubarak's 30 year reign? And of all those, how many were directed specifically vs Mubarak? I'd be surprised if they reached 3 figures. There are shows and groups that openly call for Morsi's removal for gods sake, as well as the army to step back in. How do you think Mubarak's police would have responded to that?
 
He wasn't using fighter jets and artillery when they were peaceful but his response certainly went well above that of Mubarak and Ben Ali at the beginning and was more akin to Gadaffi's. He certainly was using the army even early on.

I'm not missing the point. Their style of government is fundamental to their response. I expect a protest against Obama to go very differently to a protest vs Putin for example.


This isn't true at all. Morsi is a dickhead and there's still a lot of problems with freedom as Egypt tries to work out its post revolution identity. but I'm not really on board with the whole hyerbole thing.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2013/...onstrations-in-first-5-months-of-2013-report/
5544 protests in the first 5 months of the year. Average of 42 protests a day and 2 per hour. The most protests in the world by a distance. I don't know about you but that doesn't seem like crushing them to me. How many protests do you think there were in total during Mubarak's 30 year reign? And of all those, how many were directed specifically vs Mubarak? I'd be surprised if they reached 3 figures. There are shows and groups that openly call for Morsi's removal for gods sake, as well as the army to step back in. How do you think Mubarak's police would have responded to that?

Why trying to analyse the "fundamental grounds" of the response instead of the response itself? Erdogan didn't let the protests "play out" in a peaceful manner like some are trying to suggest here. This is a blatant attempt to bend the facts. He is trying to crush with the means he sees necessary for the moment. That's the core of the issue. If you say that's not "crushing", that's the expected reaction to the protests, then fine, but you have to apply the same assessment to similar situations, regardless of other factors.

Let me hear out your opinion on the protests in Iran in 2009 as well. What do you think about those? How do you assess the reaction of the Iranian government to them?

Also, about Egypt, what you're neglecting is the fact that freedom has expanded significantly during Mobarak's reign in the last few years, which actually gave the ground for the Muslim brotherhood to expand. Notice also the fact that Morsi has just got to power, so he doesn't have full control yet which would allow him to control the army ...etc. fully. He did though respond to the protests violently through the members of his party, who clashed the protestors on more than one occasion. Wait until he gets full control (and it does look like he's going in that direction unless those protests somehow win in the end), and the comparison will become very clear.
 
Why trying to analyse the "fundamental grounds" of the response instead of the response itself? Erdogan didn't let the protests "play out" in a peaceful manner like some are trying to suggest here. This is a blatant attempt to bend the facts. He is trying to crush with the means he sees necessary for the moment. That's the core of the issue. If you say that's not "crushing", that's the expected reaction to the protests, then fine, but you have to apply the same assessment to similar situations, regardless of other factors.

Let me hear out your opinion on the protests in Iran in 2009 as well. What do you think about those? How do you assess the reaction of the Iranian government to them?

Also, about Egypt, what you're neglecting is the fact that freedom has expanded significantly during Mobarak's reign in the last few years, which actually gave the ground for the Muslim brotherhood to expand. Notice also the fact that Morsi has just got to power, so he doesn't have full control yet which would allow him to control the army ...etc. fully. He did though respond to the protests violently through the members of his party, who clashed the protestors on more than one occasion. Wait until he gets full control (and it does look like he's going in that direction unless those protests somehow win in the end), and the comparison will become very clear.


Why am I trying to analyse the fundamental grounds of their response? Because the fundamental grounds help explain each of their responses.

Who on here suggested that Erdogan tried to let the protests play out in a peaceful manner?

As for Iran, I think the response to the protests was incredibly heavy handed and overboard (as you'd expect from a country that is in essence a dictatorship). When you're involving paramilitary forces, it is always going to be heavy. I still don't get the comparison though tbh, considering that Erdogan hasn't called in anyone other than the police, who I'm led to believe have now left the protesters in Gezi park. I do also think however that Ahmedinijad did win that election, though perhaps not by the margin they eventually claimed he had.

I am not neglecting anything. You're now trying to change what you said. You said that Morsi's response is worse than Mubarak's ever was. This is clearly twaddle as in the last 5 months of his reign, Morsi has faced a number of protests many factors greater in number than Mubarak faced in 30 years and he faced the most protests in the world of any leader, democrat, theocrat or autocrat. Most of them peaceful. To suggest then that he has crushed the protests worse than Mubarak did shows a misunderstanding of the situation now in Egypt and Mubarak's style of rule over the 30 years.

I don't think the MB are democrats. I don't think they like the protests. There have been a couple of disgusting times when they tried to bring out their supporters to clash/ counter demonstrate with the original protesters (almost every time they've been beaten off though).

In the future, who knows what may happen? Neither of us are psychic. But right now, comparing Mubarak and Morsi in their responses is silly.
 
Why am I trying to analyse the fundamental grounds of their response? Because the fundamental grounds help explain each of their responses.

We're talking here about the observations, not the explanations. You're trying to work your way backwards here, establish the explanations first, and then build the "observations" that suits your explanations on them.

Who on here suggested that Erdogan tried to let the protests play out in a peaceful manner?

The discussion started because some here are trying to find excuses or completely deny that Erdogan did anything wrong. Some are even trying to set it as an example of how things in Syria should have been handled..

When the internet access is restricted a bit in Iran, it's a big deal! When Erdogan completely bans any sort of media coverage inside Turkey, closes all the websites than mention the protests, detain anybody talking about the protests on the internet, completely blocks facebook and twitter, and ask all the media of the neighboring countries to stop covering the protests, then it's just...
Interesting watching these protests play out in a democratic state
That's double standards in my book.

As for Iran, I think the response to the protests was incredibly heavy handed and overboard (as you'd expect from a country that is in essence a dictatorship). When you're involving paramilitary forces, it is always going to be heavy. I still don't get the comparison though tbh, considering that Erdogan hasn't called in anyone other than the police, who I'm led to believe have now left the protesters in Gezi park. I do also think however that Ahmedinijad did win that election, though perhaps not by the margin they eventually claimed he had.

See that's the problem. The double standards. You're using the continuous protests against Morsi for 5 months as evidence to prove that Morsi didn't crush them, while you neglect the fact that the protests also went on for months in Iran, why isn't that a proof too that they weren't crushed?! The number of casualties in Iran isn't that different from those in Turkey either. Yet you give a different assessment to the situation in Iran, and the reason for that is that you don't assess the reaction itself, objectively, you look at the type of the government first, and then try to predict what a typical reaction from such a government would look like.

And by the way, if you agree that Ahmedinejad did indeed win the elections, then why are you calling him a dictator if he was elected by the majority of the people?! Shouldn't he have as much rights as Erdogan do for example?

I am not neglecting anything. You're now trying to change what you said. You said that Morsi's response is worse than Mubarak's ever was.

:wenger: Read again what I wrote.

This is clearly twaddle as in the last 5 months of his reign, Morsi has faced a number of protests many factors greater in number than Mubarak faced in 30 years and he faced the most protests in the world of any leader, democrat, theocrat or autocrat. Most of them peaceful. To suggest then that he has crushed the protests worse than Mubarak did shows a misunderstanding of the situation now in Egypt and Mubarak's style of rule over the 30 years.

Again, read again what I wrote. I wasn't talking about the past 30 years. I was talking about the protests that drew everybody's attention around the world.

I don't think the MB are democrats. I don't think they like the protests. There have been a couple of disgusting times when they tried to bring out their supporters to clash.

Ok then, let's keep it short and to the point here. Isn't this my point? It doesn't matter if you're democratically elected or not when we're assessing the reaction of a leader to protests against him. You can be "democratically elected" but still "crush" opposition protests, or show the same reaction of a dictator. Being democratically elected has nothing to do with assessing how you handled the protests.
 
Its not a double standard that they are Democratic vs Authoritarian. The leadership in the former is elected unlike the dictators in the others.
 
We're talking here about the observations, not the explanations. You're trying to work your way backwards here, establish the explanations first, and then build the "observations" that suits your explanations on them.



The discussion started because some here are trying to find excuses or completely deny that Erdogan did anything wrong. Some are even trying to set it as an example of how things in Syria should have been handled..

When the internet access is restricted a bit in Iran, it's a big deal! When Erdogan completely bans any sort of media coverage inside Turkey, closes all the websites than mention the protests, detain anybody talking about the protests on the internet, completely blocks facebook and twitter, and ask all the media of the neighboring countries to stop covering the protests, then it's just...

That's double standards in my book.



See that's the problem. The double standards. You're using the continuous protests against Morsi for 5 months as evidence to prove that Morsi didn't crush them, while you neglect the fact that the protests also went on for months in Iran, why isn't that a proof too that they weren't crushed?! The number of casualties in Iran isn't that different from those in Turkey either. Yet you give a different assessment to the situation in Iran, and the reason for that is that you don't assess the reaction itself, objectively, you look at the type of the government first, and then try to predict what a typical reaction from such a government would look like.

And by the way, if you agree that Ahmedinejad did indeed win the elections, then why are you calling him a dictator if he was elected by the majority of the people?! Shouldn't he have as much rights as Erdogan do for example?



:wenger: Read again what I wrote.



Again, read again what I wrote. I wasn't talking about the past 30 years. I was talking about the protests that drew everybody's attention around the world.



Ok then, let's keep it short and to the point here. Isn't this my point? It doesn't matter if you're democratically elected or not when we're assessing the reaction of a leader to protests against him. You can be "democratically elected" but still "crush" opposition protests, or show the same reaction of a dictator. Being democratically elected has nothing to do with assessing how you handled the protests.


I'm sorry, you've lost me now.

What Raoul said there isn't the same as saying they played out in a peaceful manner?

No, I'm using the continuous protests, by far the most in the world, over 2 years, including the last year of Morsi's leadership, over every issue under the sun, most of them peaceful, as evidence that Morsi hasn't crushed the protests. Most of these protests have no police presence, certainly no paramilitary presence like the basij. Most of them have no representation from groups other than those protesting. Generally, they protest, they're left alone and then they go home. Arguably, SCAF was more brutal than Morsi has been so far.

This obviously wasn't what happened in Iran at all. They came out to protest. The Basij, regular police, the revolutionary guards all came out and got involved. And the protests were quelled.

And are you joking? Mubarak initially brought a heavy police presence. Then hired people on camels and horses to attack those in Tahrir square. Then withdrew the police and opened many of the prisons to try to create chaos. Then called in the army (and I'm going to assume he wasn't calling them in to sit around and paint pretty pictures). All in 18 days. He killed almost 1000 people. Which of the protests against Morsi has he or the police come down as heavy handed as this?



And yes, perhaps in a year or two, Morsi will have crushed everyone and be dictator (I doubt it). Then you can say he has crushed the protests. But to say that right now, when he's leading a country that had over 5000 protests in 5 months, by far the most in the world, is rubbish. Just as saying that Khameini had crushed the protests while they were still going on would have been incorrect.

Because the dictator isn't Ahmedinejad and in fact, the leader of Iran is in reality not Ahmedinejad either. He can win all the elections in the world, it won't change the fact that it is the Ayotollahs who rule, the ayotollahs who even decide who can run for president.


Yes but your point against what though? I don't think there's many people who are going to deny that the response from Erdogan (as well as his appalling rhetoric) isn't heavy handed. The problem came when you tried to compare it to Syria.
 
I'd say the major difference is that Turkey's protests have been secular, Syria's haven't. Turkey's protesters are currently bleeding for a more democratic, transparent society, the majority of the Syrian opposition are not.
 
Raoul, the main point was not comparing the two governments, but about how those protests played out.

africanspur, it doesn't matter who comes out. The idea is to preserve peace. As long as the protests remained peaceful in Iran, there were no military clashes. Morsi also deployed tanks against those protests. Yes tanks! What do you say about that?

I disagree with your assessment about Iran, but I might debate about it another time. In short, IMO there is no black and white when it comes to democracy and freedom.. Calling Iran an outright dictatorship is off IMO.

Also to get back to the main point, "The problem came when you tried to compare it to Syria.", the point I was making is that we're seeing different scenes in Syria than in Turkey not because of Erdogan's superior reaction (to Assad's), but mainly because of the difference in the protests themselves (with the foreign intervention and support being a major factor, including Al-Qaeda's major influence in Syria). Look at how things played out in Bahrain as an example of how despite (multiple) army intervention, things can play out differently if there is no foreign intervention/support for the protestors.
 
photos that have showed up on my newsfeed

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When the internet access is restricted a bit in Iran, it's a big deal! When Erdogan completely bans any sort of media coverage inside Turkey, closes all the websites than mention the protests, detain anybody talking about the protests on the internet, completely blocks facebook and twitter, and ask all the media of the neighboring countries to stop covering the protests, then it's just...
Read this in many other places but is not true. I have spoken with a friend of mine who is there in facebook. Dunno about twitter.
 
Turkey: Protesters Turn To Street Dancing
Protesters hit back at the PM's description of them as looters and vandals and mark their opposition with peaceful dancing.

3:00pm UK, Saturday 08 June 2013

Video: Carnival Spirit Of Istanbul Protest
Katie Stallard
Moscow Correspondent
More from Katie | Follow Katie on Twitter
They danced through the night in Taksim Square in what has become a defiant carnival of protest.
The prime minister has described the protesters as looters and vandals - so now they are dancing as a form of peaceful resistance.
Hundreds joined traditional Turkish folkloric dances in the square, while others released paper lanterns into the skies above.
Protesters lit candles in the park to spell out "Taksim belongs to the people".
They have set up open-air cafes, a library, and medical centre amongst the trees where this movement started as a small campaign to try to save Gezi Park from being turned into a shopping centre.
Complaints of police brutality against those original environmental activists sparked these mass protests, which have evolved now into a much broader campaign against Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's rule.
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Dancing has become a form of protest
They accuse him of pursuing an increasingly authoritarian and conservative Islamic agenda.
At least 90% of the population consider themselves to be Muslim, but the modern republic of Turkey has been a firmly secular state since it was founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk 90 years ago.
It has been held up, particularly by the US, as a model Islamic democracy.
The prime minister met senior party officials in Istanbul on Saturday after being absent for much of the week.
On Friday, city officials said protesters would be allowed to stay in the square until Monday, but it is not clear what will happen then.
Barricades have been built at many entrances to th square to try to stop the police from entering.
Meanwhile, the protesters are using social media to organise; during one 24 hour period this week more than two million tweets were sent directly referencing the protest.
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The protests taken on a carnival spirit
At one point there were more than 3,000 messages posted every minute.
They have set up their own TV station too - from a corner of the camp 'Gezi Park TV' is filing news from the square to the web.
They claim the national Turkish media has been slow and reluctant to cover the protests.
And they're taking back their language too.
In the early days, Mr Erdogan dismissed the protesters using the Turkish word "capulcu", which means looters or marauders.
So now they've redefined the word.
To "capul", they say, now means to fight for one's rights.
And they've made their own music video - set to the tune of LMFAO's Party Rock Anthem (Everyday I'm Shuffling) and featuring pictures of the protests - to become "every day I'm capelling".
 
Raoul, the main point was not comparing the two governments, but about how those protests played out.

africanspur, it doesn't matter who comes out. The idea is to preserve peace. As long as the protests remained peaceful in Iran, there were no military clashes. Morsi also deployed tanks against those protests. Yes tanks! What do you say about that?

I disagree with your assessment about Iran, but I might debate about it another time. In short, IMO there is no black and white when it comes to democracy and freedom.. Calling Iran an outright dictatorship is off IMO.

Also to get back to the main point, "The problem came when you tried to compare it to Syria.", the point I was making is that we're seeing different scenes in Syria than in Turkey not because of Erdogan's superior reaction (to Assad's), but mainly because of the difference in the protests themselves (with the foreign intervention and support being a major factor, including Al-Qaeda's major influence in Syria). Look at how things played out in Bahrain as an example of how despite (multiple) army intervention, things can play out differently if there is no foreign intervention/support for the protestors.


The protests in Iran were mostly peaceful though.

Danny, I know exactly what's going on in Egypt, I spend a lot of my time in that country. He deployed tanks outside the presidential palace after protesters had been throwing molotovs at it for a day. They did nothing other than stand there.

Fair point. Iran certainly isn't a Saudi for example.

You're pushing me into defending someone I find deplorable. I dislike Morsi. But your initial statement was wrong. He has not crushed the protests and none of his responses to any of the protests have come anywhere near what Mubarak did.

Do you think Al-Qaeda were a major factor in the initially peaceful protests in Syria?
 
:wenger: Both are basically unhappy people protesting against their government.


That may be the case, however the governments are completely different from one another. A Government elected by a Democratic or parliamentary majority has the credibility of representing the people that gives it the mandate to maintain a degree of law and order. An authoritarian government which is in power by brute force has no such popular mandate because it doesn't support a majority and is only cracking down to remain in power. That's a significant difference that can't be overlooked when analyzing the nature of protests in a given country.