It is a great attack indeed. But do you really see all 4 working as seamless as it should? Forget about the pitch, I don't think it even works on paper. Annah wants everyone to consider every single player at his peak which includes Figo - Barca version and Rivaldo Barca version. Rivaldo Barca version would simply not work on left wing. He had a publicized dispute with Van Gaal over that very issue and some even accused him of not playing to his fullest when deployed on left wing. Figo at Barca was much more influential since he was allowed to roam into central areas. Here with Zidane running the show and Rivaldo vying for the same space, it would not be an option at all.
Transfer Muppet Draft 2nd Semi Final - Annahnomoss vs crappycraperson
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
So Martinez has been fielded as a CB in a 5 man defense who remains a CB(Like Crappy showed in his post above) in the teams offense to handle counter-attackers. And then in the defense he has a free defensive role?
I don't think there has been a player of good quality in the libero role for a long time, which is why putting a modern player in that role looks odd.
He is not a left winger here, van Gaal told him he wasn't allowed to move centrally which is what put Rivaldo off - van Gaal wanting a side-line hugging winger. Rivaldo here is a free fluid attacker allowed to move to the right corner flag if he thinks that is fun. His defensive role is on the left and his offensive role will start from there but he will decide whether to provide width out left or move centrally depending on the other players movements.
Completely different role.
Really? I'd say we more and more see teams with two attacking fullbacks and a defensive midfielder dropping between two centerbacks in possession. It's happening all the time. I wouldn't call them liberos or sweepers though, just versatile defenders who play a different role in possession and without possession.
Again this
You are making out Seedorf to be the all conquering DM of his generation. His role in this game is ridiculous. It is absurd to think he would be the one to stop Dinho when better DMs in Gattuso, Makelele could not do it. It would be me claiming that Scholes would be the one to stop Zidane or Ronaldo.Not the case
Ronaldinho at his peak came up against a FAR better defensive set up in -
----------Pirlo--------Gattuso
-------Stam---Nesta----Cafu
and he still made a match winning impact.
I find it ridiculous that Annah is suggesting that Seedorf will do a job on him.
Thats why I said minimize not eliminate. I think he will still be a danger but he could have exploited that right side more.
@Annahnomoss will figo be staying out wide or drifting inside as well?
Errm No. That post is to illustrate a particular instance MJJ talked about nothing else.
I mentioned in my tactics that Martinez natural position would be slightly in front of the back two.
Again this
I am not saying Ronadinho will be stopped, simply saying Seedorf and the centre-backs will make sure he has to receive the ball further down the pitch. So he isn't available as the first outlet on counter-attacks instead that torch is handed over to Nedved and RVN. Nobody is trying to stop Ronaldinho or man-mark him out of the game, simply make a decision about which space is going to be of higher priority. Which will be the space Ronaldinho would occupy to be able to instantly attack on a counter. The space that opens up will be Nedved-RVN.
Cafu is wasted if he is going to stay back because of Dinho. Better off playing a defensive RB
Depends on which type of offense it is. If it is a counter-attack with Figo-Ronaldo and Rivaldo then he will be in a free fluid attack. If it is instead against an organized defense then Figo will provide a wider outlet to not congest the central area.
Cafu is intelligent enough to pick his opportunities. I would trust him more to know when to attack and when to defend compared to someone like marcelo.
Thanks..I would like not to vote in this match as am facing the winner in the final but will do so later if I absolutely have to.
Who said Cafu will stay back because of Ronaldinho? Cafu will play his regular role he did in a 4 man defense. When the ball is on his side, he moves up to provide overlapping width - when the ball is on the left side Marcelo pushes up and Cafu drops down.
Fair enough, that's true indeed.
Though normally you would need a CB or DM to help out against Dinho... neither Lucio or Seedrof are capable of doing that.
In the past we had the rule that the managers of the other semifinal teams aren't allowed to vote for that very reason. I'd say we should keep that rule to avoid any controversy.
In an organized defense Dinho is up against the defensively maybe optimal pair out wide in Figo and Cafu. It can't get much worse for Ronaldinho. For the counter-attacks Ronaldinho will be targeted by Seedorf with help of Vieira and the three defenders to congest his area and make sure he can't receive the ball facing my goal running at the defense.
Nobody is saying he won't get the ball, he sure will, but after making a run towards his own goal which will slow down the counter completely or force a ball to Nedved/RVN which Ronaldinho would try to link up with in a second wave.
If passing Ronaldinho is the route chosen then Figo will be right there more often than not helping Marcelo, Seedorf and Lucio out.
Yup, Its a good rule and if it was used in the past then I wont vote here.
Anyway, I am a bit exhausted now, it was always going to be impossible to win against the big names in Annah's team so apt scoreline in that sense.
I am off soon for Friday drinks as well. Couple of points worth repeating since people have largely ignored them in favor of the fab 4 Annah has
- Seedorf and Vieira are both in roles that do not suit their strength. Vieira was at his best with a Makelele or Silva besides him. Seedorf is simply not a DM. Full Stop. Telling him to play a withdrawn CM role as Annah put it is well odd and he is simply wasted in this set up. I don't expect Annah to admit this but I just don't see how any one could argue against it.
- Lucio and Marcelo are clear weaklinks in Annah's defense. Forget Goofy, Marcelo can't even deal with Nedved!
- There is no clear tactic as to how both Zidane and Rivaldo would link up. Annah says that Rivaldo would drift in, Zidane is likely toep play LAM type role himself, only way Rivaldo steps in to the same position if Zidane drops deep. I don't see a peak Zidane doing that, he would trying to control the attack in the front of the defense all the time. If Rivaldo moves to play a left forward role, he runs into Thuram. There is simply no way you are going to see a peak Rivaldo in this set up.
- Who is going to stop counter attacks from happening in Annah's team? None of his front 4 for starters would do a job on Scholes to prevent him from putting in his trademark long pass to one of the forwards. None of his wingers are likely to track either one of Carlos or Alves.
I really think this team is a perfect tribute to the Madrid's Galacticos team in every possible way. It lacks balance at the back to be a success.
I am off soon for Friday drinks as well. Couple of points worth repeating since people have largely ignored them in favor of the fab 4 Annah has
- Seedorf and Vieira are both in roles that do not suit their strength. Vieira was at his best with a Makelele or Silva besides him. Seedorf is simply not a DM. Full Stop. Telling him to play a withdrawn CM role as Annah put it is well odd and he is simply wasted in this set up. I don't expect Annah to admit this but I just don't see how any one could argue against it.
- Lucio and Marcelo are clear weaklinks in Annah's defense. Forget Goofy, Marcelo can't even deal with Nedved!
- There is no clear tactic as to how both Zidane and Rivaldo would link up. Annah says that Rivaldo would drift in, Zidane is likely toep play LAM type role himself, only way Rivaldo steps in to the same position if Zidane drops deep. I don't see a peak Zidane doing that, he would trying to control the attack in the front of the defense all the time. If Rivaldo moves to play a left forward role, he runs into Thuram. There is simply no way you are going to see a peak Rivaldo in this set up.
- Who is going to stop counter attacks from happening in Annah's team? None of his front 4 for starters would do a job on Scholes to prevent him from putting in his trademark long pass to one of the forwards. None of his wingers are likely to track either one of Carlos or Alves.
I really think this team is a perfect tribute to the Madrid's Galacticos team in every possible way. It lacks balance at the back to be a success.
Voted for Crappy. I like his defensive set-up a lot more (and he made a few very good points about Seedorf not really playing in his best position, which will cause problems) and Nedved vs Marcelo is easily the biggest mismatch on the pitch for me. It seems like Nedved gets more praise for his work-rate these days than for actually being an almost unplayable AM/winger. His peak was sensational.
This is true. anto told me not to bother with him since supposedly Ashley Cole had him in his pocket!
I already made a detailed post on how Zidane and Rivaldo will work. Zidane is the playmaker of the team in the organized attacks and Rivaldo will be wide left when he desires(which will be rather often considering there is a lot of space for him there) - but he will make runs behind the defense or link-up where he wants to.
More often than not my attacks will end rather quickly as my offensive quartet are so direct. Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Figo will be countering and running with the ball at their feet against the defense. Zidane will come in as the fourth man looking to be the playmaking outlet to break down an organized defense in the second wave.
Lucio and Marcelo are both better defenders than Javi Martinez, so of course Javi Martinez is going to have a harder time against Ronaldo than Lucio will against RVN.
Both team has similar wide options, the major difference is one team has Ronaldo and the other RVN. Ronaldo is an even bigger threat than Ronaldinho/Nedved/Rivaldo/Figo. Especially operating around post 06 Scholes and Martinez.
More often than not my attacks will end rather quickly as my offensive quartet are so direct. Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Figo will be countering and running with the ball at their feet against the defense. Zidane will come in as the fourth man looking to be the playmaking outlet to break down an organized defense in the second wave.
Lucio and Marcelo are both better defenders than Javi Martinez, so of course Javi Martinez is going to have a harder time against Ronaldo than Lucio will against RVN.
Both team has similar wide options, the major difference is one team has Ronaldo and the other RVN. Ronaldo is an even bigger threat than Ronaldinho/Nedved/Rivaldo/Figo. Especially operating around post 06 Scholes and Martinez.
Rivaldo-Ronaldo-Figo will be interacting brilliantly. Any defender will have issues stopping them in 1 vs 1's on the counter when they have built up pace they are near unstoppable. Even when Ronaldo gets away on a counter on his own it is an absolute nightmare of a player to have running at or behind your defense. With Figo, Zidane and Rivaldo I have enough players who can act as playmakers and find through-balls or cross-field balls in and behind the defense.
Three of the best dribblers and counter-attackers of the era, joga bonito.
Three of the best dribblers and counter-attackers of the era, joga bonito.
Is Makelele on the Annah's bench, I understood correctly? Then I would like to see him paired with Vieira or Seedorf for this match, never mind him being inferior player to both. He will give Annah's team required solidity in the back and all of his defenders are perfectly capable of playing the ball further up the pitch to make up for Seedorf's attacking contribution (it's not crucial for this team as you can see in match up).
Like Annah's team better at the moment, though Marcelo looks like a weak link right now.
Don't think that Martinez is good enough to win this match for crappy - his role is, probably, the most important on the pitch and he don't have enough class (compared to others) to own it properly.
Like Annah's team better at the moment, though Marcelo looks like a weak link right now.
Don't think that Martinez is good enough to win this match for crappy - his role is, probably, the most important on the pitch and he don't have enough class (compared to others) to own it properly.
No time to read up. From scanning I see the main discussion has revolved around CMs and Martínez.
I think crappy is right on both counts:
1) Saying Annah will play on the counter is quite ridiculous. You can't play on the counter if the oppo isn't applying consistent pressure. The notion of Seedorf and Vieira sitting there in midfield as DMs and only occasionally bursting forward is bizarre, it's basically pretty names doing a job someone like Fletcher would do better. Further, with the personnel Annah has it is only natural he will have more possession and try do something with it (i.e. not tiki taka, applying consistent pressure upfront) which is what makes the counter opportunities crappy wants arise. No amount of instructioning will keep these guys away from their best game (and if the instructions are effective then Annah doesn't even have Fletcher and Carrick in midfield).
2) Conversely, saying Nedved or RvN aren't suited to counter attacking football makes zero sense. United were a pretty awesome counter-attacking side back then and RvN scored a lot of goals on the counter, we should know that!
3) Martínez role. I see it more as a DM role since crappy only faces one striker. Super-useful if facing Zidane. I agree with crappy he wouldn't be doing a man-marking job full time as he has other duties (flank covering) but I think those will be very occasional. The way I see Martínez operating is largely keeping tabs on Zidane and only deviating from that when Annah counters an attack. With wingbacks committed forward an advance down either flank would call for Martínez to be more mindful of covering either CB than man-marking Zidane. In "normal play" which will be most of the time when they don't have the ball he will be a man-marking DM. That's where I agree, for all my bumming of Márquez, that Martínez is better suited for this game. Not due to votes, just because he is a better DM than Márquez and most of the time that is what will be required.
I love Annah's front four, so much f.a.p.ball potential
and his fullbacks are great going forward, as are his midfielders and his CBs who are both comfortable on the ball... and like their runs... and having a pop occasionally. I'm just not very clear who on earth will be doing much defending when crappy gets the ball and strikes back. Has the defensive line been mantioned at all? It must be really high with those two CBs, no? He will concede a couple, and if behind will keep himself exposed to more. Can he put 3-4 past that defence? Maybe once every five games, could draw another two, but loses twice IMO.
I think crappy is right on both counts:
1) Saying Annah will play on the counter is quite ridiculous. You can't play on the counter if the oppo isn't applying consistent pressure. The notion of Seedorf and Vieira sitting there in midfield as DMs and only occasionally bursting forward is bizarre, it's basically pretty names doing a job someone like Fletcher would do better. Further, with the personnel Annah has it is only natural he will have more possession and try do something with it (i.e. not tiki taka, applying consistent pressure upfront) which is what makes the counter opportunities crappy wants arise. No amount of instructioning will keep these guys away from their best game (and if the instructions are effective then Annah doesn't even have Fletcher and Carrick in midfield).
2) Conversely, saying Nedved or RvN aren't suited to counter attacking football makes zero sense. United were a pretty awesome counter-attacking side back then and RvN scored a lot of goals on the counter, we should know that!
3) Martínez role. I see it more as a DM role since crappy only faces one striker. Super-useful if facing Zidane. I agree with crappy he wouldn't be doing a man-marking job full time as he has other duties (flank covering) but I think those will be very occasional. The way I see Martínez operating is largely keeping tabs on Zidane and only deviating from that when Annah counters an attack. With wingbacks committed forward an advance down either flank would call for Martínez to be more mindful of covering either CB than man-marking Zidane. In "normal play" which will be most of the time when they don't have the ball he will be a man-marking DM. That's where I agree, for all my bumming of Márquez, that Martínez is better suited for this game. Not due to votes, just because he is a better DM than Márquez and most of the time that is what will be required.
I love Annah's front four, so much f.a.p.ball potential
and his fullbacks are great going forward, as are his midfielders and his CBs who are both comfortable on the ball... and like their runs... and having a pop occasionally. I'm just not very clear who on earth will be doing much defending when crappy gets the ball and strikes back. Has the defensive line been mantioned at all? It must be really high with those two CBs, no? He will concede a couple, and if behind will keep himself exposed to more. Can he put 3-4 past that defence? Maybe once every five games, could draw another two, but loses twice IMO.Let us revisit your true opinions on Ronaldo -
On Ronaldo's hattrick at OT -
According to you, he is not certain to score in this match at all,, infact he probably won't -
More-
Except that Vieira is supposed to be the more conservative DM, at which point Makelele is a vastly superior player to either. Better or worse depends on characteristics and task at hand. I'm actually shocked if that is the case. Is Makelele really on the bench when Aldo's wet dream was getting Zidane, Vieira and Makelele together again? Makelele and that Real top heavy theme...
There is no Makelele on his bench.
I disgaree on Martinez, he is highly intelligent player suited to his role here. He is not not old enough for this draft
Mascherano is on the bench, not Makelele
It is funny
You will never have any joy on the counter since I would never commit too many players forward. My whole set up is designed to have my defense sit deep. It is bizarre how you think you will get joy on counter with so many of many players sitting and at best one full back caught up field. The graphic I posted to MJJ was the worst case scenario! I am starting to feel you are trolling me here with all your opinions on Seedorf as a deep CM and now banging on about counters. There is no way you truly believe that Vieira and Seedorf are suited to play sitting DM roles.
My bad then, I just assumed, everyone was talking about how he will be more suited there
Edit: about Martinez - he had two brilliant matches against Iniesta not even in a similar role. Of course it is about his age, but you're just assuming that he can to this job, you can't say for sure - while he is up there against Zidane, Ronaldo et cetera.
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Except that Vieira is supposed to be the more conservative DM, at which point Makelele is a vastly superior player to either. Better or worse depends on characteristics and task at hand. I'm actually shocked if that is the case. Is Makelele really on the bench when Aldo's wet dream was getting Zidane, Vieira and Makelele together again? Makelele and that Real top heavy theme...
I was mistaken there, sorry.
Yes, he would be. As I said, this is a perfect recreation of Real Galacticos team.. down to their main weakness which led to them under performing. After Real signed Ronaldo, they failed to win the CL. After Beckham, another ill-suited CM, not even a league title till Capello sorted it out
Two very strong sides indeed and i don't understand what's all the fuzz about the midfield battle. Both formations are used when the teams using them want to control the midfield. Of course Martinez can play the -in front of the CBs- sweeper role effectively and of course Seedorf can defend efficiently, he's the best all around CM of the last 20 years and one of the most clever players i've ever watched.
Both managers have taken similar risks. Annah has chosen to play with Rivaldo on the left wing who isn't good at tracking back, but he can provide cover for them. Even in the extreme occasion where the other team over commits players in the offense (both Ronaldinho and Nedved making runs in the box with both FBs doing overlaps) Annah can afford one free CM (i.e. Viera) to help in any 1v1 situation, i.e. : Lucio on Ruud, Rio on Nedved, Cafu following Ronaldinho, Figo tracking back Carlos, Marcelo on Alves and Seedorf keeping an eye on Scholes. That leaves Viera in a free role to outnumber the opposition in any 1v1 situation.
You see the 4-3-3, played by world class players, can be a very fluid formation, allowing players to move out of position with proper cover and providing the offense with multiple options. What if Zidane moves into wider positions to create numerical advantage on the wings? I don't like the idea of Martinez chasing him around, especially when Ronaldinho doesn't track back and Nedved's work right is overrated on this tread. Both Juventus and Real Madrid took advantage of his ability to do those moves in the attacking third.
Viera is an excellent DM, he never needed Makelele or any other ball winning midfielder at Arsenal. He won titles playing alongside Parlour, Petit, Gilberto, Edu or even Ljundberg at times. The 5 of them combined can't reach Seedorf in his prime. Imo the Zidane-Viera-Seedorf midfield is ridiculously good. And it shouldn't be taken for granted that Annah's team will be caught on the counter too many times just because crappy will let them have possession. If he doesn't commit more players in the offense and he keeps his defensive balance at all times, he won't face such problems. And honestly why should he take such risks? He has players like Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo and Rivaldo who can keep possession high on the pitch and bring their teammates into play. Can you remember Zidane giving away the ball, ever?
Crappy has also done a very good job, i don't have to add anything to what Balu and anton have written above. My only problem with this team is that they'll solely depend on the FBs for providing width in the offense. I would prefer Nedved in his natural position. Even in that goal against Real Madrid (my God what a season that was for him, shame on Meyer for showing him the yellow card that cost him the final when all was over) he made a move from the left wing to a more central position.
If one team has a clear advantage somewhere that would be Annah's team on set pieces. With Scholes, Davids, Alves and Carlos, Nedved, Ronaldinho on the same team and with only the 3 CBs able to win a header in the box (guess Ruud will be on the 1st post) crappy will find it difficult defending set pieces.
Both managers have taken similar risks. Annah has chosen to play with Rivaldo on the left wing who isn't good at tracking back, but he can provide cover for them. Even in the extreme occasion where the other team over commits players in the offense (both Ronaldinho and Nedved making runs in the box with both FBs doing overlaps) Annah can afford one free CM (i.e. Viera) to help in any 1v1 situation, i.e. : Lucio on Ruud, Rio on Nedved, Cafu following Ronaldinho, Figo tracking back Carlos, Marcelo on Alves and Seedorf keeping an eye on Scholes. That leaves Viera in a free role to outnumber the opposition in any 1v1 situation.
You see the 4-3-3, played by world class players, can be a very fluid formation, allowing players to move out of position with proper cover and providing the offense with multiple options. What if Zidane moves into wider positions to create numerical advantage on the wings? I don't like the idea of Martinez chasing him around, especially when Ronaldinho doesn't track back and Nedved's work right is overrated on this tread. Both Juventus and Real Madrid took advantage of his ability to do those moves in the attacking third.
Viera is an excellent DM, he never needed Makelele or any other ball winning midfielder at Arsenal. He won titles playing alongside Parlour, Petit, Gilberto, Edu or even Ljundberg at times. The 5 of them combined can't reach Seedorf in his prime. Imo the Zidane-Viera-Seedorf midfield is ridiculously good. And it shouldn't be taken for granted that Annah's team will be caught on the counter too many times just because crappy will let them have possession. If he doesn't commit more players in the offense and he keeps his defensive balance at all times, he won't face such problems. And honestly why should he take such risks? He has players like Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo and Rivaldo who can keep possession high on the pitch and bring their teammates into play. Can you remember Zidane giving away the ball, ever?
Crappy has also done a very good job, i don't have to add anything to what Balu and anton have written above. My only problem with this team is that they'll solely depend on the FBs for providing width in the offense. I would prefer Nedved in his natural position. Even in that goal against Real Madrid (my God what a season that was for him, shame on Meyer for showing him the yellow card that cost him the final when all was over) he made a move from the left wing to a more central position.
If one team has a clear advantage somewhere that would be Annah's team on set pieces. With Scholes, Davids, Alves and Carlos, Nedved, Ronaldinho on the same team and with only the 3 CBs able to win a header in the box (guess Ruud will be on the 1st post) crappy will find it difficult defending set pieces.
I've really enjoyed the debate so far. I haven't especially liked Martinez being presented as a defender rather than a midfielder in the team graphics so far but Crappy's described his role perfectly here. The debate on Annah's midfield is interesting and I'm still slightly on the fence as I like the idea of two all-rounders in central midfield rather than a dedicated holding player.
Seeing as Annah doesn't have Makelele, I've voted crappy. I rate both midfielders but I can see them getting caught out.
The underrating of Ruud van Nistelrooy is spectacularly unfair. There are few strikers in this draft I would prefer to find with a pass into the box. That includes Ronaldo. A more complete player, and would be deadly in this counter setup, but not the same kind of goalscoring beast Ruud was. In fact, if it weren't for the partnerships involved I reckon Annah, with all the possession he would enjoy, may be better off with Ruud. Not taking the piss here, it's all about task at hand. Many usually say Ronaldo is a guaranteed goal, and I can't see how the same wouldn't hold for Ruud.
The underrating of Ruud van Nistelrooy is spectacularly unfair. There are few strikers in this draft I would prefer to find with a pass into the box. That includes Ronaldo. A more complete player, and would be deadly in this counter setup, but not the same kind of goalscoring beast Ruud was. In fact, if it weren't for the partnerships involved I reckon Annah, with all the possession he would enjoy, may be better off with Ruud. Not taking the piss here, it's all about task at hand. Many usually say Ronaldo is a guaranteed goal, and I can't see how the same wouldn't hold for Ruud.
Like like your long posts in this game. I disagree with most of it though
Set pieces - I have Thuram and Montrero as well!
I think we will just have to disagree on Seedorf in that CM. I am certain when Annah wins it, he will get someone else to play with Vieira. Also worth noting that those two are not playing as a all round CMs but as holding ones as per Annah's tactics. That's one of my points, you have taken off a huge chunk of their game, especially Seedorf's by playing them in a withdrawn role.
I personally think Annah has not specified any clear route for goal. That is why he will need to over-commit players against my set up. I still stand by my Rivaldo-Zidane mismatch comments and I think it is about one of his top dogs producing a moment of magic rather than his set up overcoming mine. On the other hand, I have players to produce that extraordinary moment as well, plus some of the matchups like Nedved vs Marcelo with Alves overlapping at times! (Rivaldo is hardly going to follow him) are lop sided in my favor.
As far as FBs as sold outlet for width. Why would you think that? Dinho and Nedved start as slaightly tucked in but they will obviously attack from the wing as well. Both of them are capable of attacking from the middle and from the wing. If given the chance they will try to skin Marcelo or Cafu in a wide position.
I need a MJJ style comeback now. Some managers still left to vote.
@Chesterlestreet ; @kps88
That should settle it one way or another. You may not get much luck with Pippa, mind