Toxic squad or just not good enough? I´ll go for the latter.

Drop any single one of our squad into the best teams in the world [& bar quality, cause too many simply aren’t good enough] I think they’d assimilate into any of them.

The issue is we’ve pandered to a bunch of serial losers & championed their failures. I get that to some their a bunch of mickey mouse trophies but how people can be surprised by this season when at every point during the previous few [slightly difficult FA & EUL Cup games] this team showed you they can raise their games to match expectations is beyond me. We hold on to our mistakes & romanticise their good performances when on the whole they show us they won’t perform that way consistently.
 
Definitely not good enough. Everything else flows from that - it’s not like we would not criticise them any less for finishing 7th or 8th if they were all self-effaciing and ego free.

You are right the squad is certainly not good enough. But it’s far better than what PV is working with at Crystal Palace and yet he has transformed their play in a very short amount of time.

This is where RR and his coaching staff have completely failed. A semi decent manager would have this team finishing top 4 despite the squads failings.

We don’t create hardly any chances. We don’t control the midfield against any team and our defence is constantly over run. That is damning on RR. He has completely failed to improve us in any sense.
 
You are right the squad is certainly not good enough. But it’s far better than what PV is working with at Crystal Palace and yet he has transformed their play in a very short amount of time.

This is where RR and his coaching staff have completely failed. A semi decent manager would have this team finishing top 4 despite the squads failings.

We don’t create hardly any chances. We don’t control the midfield against any team and our defence is constantly over run. That is damning on RR. He has completely failed to improve us in any sense.

Ralph would get a semi decent team without Toxicity working just fine, It's very hard to make a formation when your Rashford isn't running and not adhering to your instruction, it's like playing with 10 men.

If they swap team I bet Rangnick would be ahead of PV.
 
No, theres definitely elements of both. Plenty are nowhere near good enough but there's clearly a lack of professionalism and a pampered entitlement
Once again theres paper talk about Ten Hag being the latest who many players are 'underwhelmed by.' Obviously papers embellish but they are rarely allowed to just completely make stuff up. The dressing room desperately needs 3 or 4 unifying senior players who create a sense of lockdown where all this stuff is concerned. Teammates and club first, everything else second. This stuff wasn't constantly leaking from other clubs going through similar challenges. And its further evidenced on the pitch where basic effort and concentration is lacking, not to mention on social media where we see what players are more bothered by their curated reputation.

Only positive is that i suspect rangnick will have seen enough to identify the bluffers.
 
You are right the squad is certainly not good enough. But it’s far better than what PV is working with at Crystal Palace and yet he has transformed their play in a very short amount of time.

This is where RR and his coaching staff have completely failed. A semi decent manager would have this team finishing top 4 despite the squads failings.

We don’t create hardly any chances. We don’t control the midfield against any team and our defence is constantly over run. That is damning on RR. He has completely failed to improve us in any sense.

im sure i read about 2 weeks ago that since rangnick came in, weve created more goalscoring opportunities than any other team
 
Mixture of everything. A toxic situation is created at the club because:
  1. Increased expectations last summer due to good previous season, and big transfer window, but were left with a bloated squad
  2. Failure to live up to expectations because of holes in the squad, lack of quality in some areas and a subpar manager
  3. Bloated squad becomes a toxic situation because team is failing, players are off form, too many players not getting game time so it hurts everything. If team was winning, it can at least quiet the dissenting voices a bit
  4. The bloated squad and lack of quality at manager position snowballs into killing everyone's confidence and cohesion. Small complaints turn into a big thing.
  5. Squad becomes toxic.
  6. Interim manager takes over to save a failed season, except motivation is low among the squad as most are leaving in the summer
Basically this. Its not like we have a bunch of bad eggs in the group. There is no evidence to show that they are not decent guys who care. But the situation has been handled really poorly, so everything is amplified.

Agree with most of this, but i also think that you're letting them for some of their actions off the hook way too easily. I don't mind them believing that they deserved someone better than Mourinho, Solskjaer or even Rangnick (who was never going to stay as manager) to train them. I won't hold it against them if, in private conversations, they feel that the club should have targeted other players in the summer (e.g. the rumours that Ronnie came in and stirred the dynamics both in the dressing room and the first team). It may not always be normal, but it is certainly expected in any working environment when things aren't going as planned.

But some of them are definitely playing their part in this. And, in the end, it's not Rangnick they're hurting, but the club itself. This is what most fans have a problem with. I don't know about you, but Shaw's "lack of love" at United rubbed me up the wrong way. Because he is shitting on the club. A club that has done, and continues doing, lots of mistakes that hinder its footballing operations. But, nevertheless, a club that stood by his side during the darkest period of his career. Such was/is the belief that he would become the next Irwin/Evra for us, that we still haven't signed a left back that can seriously make the spot his by challenging Shaw. Similarly, when Rashford hints to mismanagement by Solskjaer, you can't say that there's not a case to made there. But the way he carries himself on the pitch, doing his own thing and looking disinterested, shows someone who believes he's too important for the United brand. All this talk about how he wants a new contract or else... Jesus Christ. Can you blame people for believing that all the leaks/SM posting will simply vanish if he's offered Sancho's wages?

And that's just two of them. You can add Lingard posting with a WHU shirt or Raiola blaming United for everything and claiming that Pogba is basically doing us a favour by staying. The list is endless. It's one thing just giving it your best and failing. But when you know you're doing all you can, you're usually OK with yourself and you don't need to create all this drama just to tell the world: "Look, it's not my fault". What we have here is closer to an office full of well-paid employees, most of which have been promoted way beyond their qualifications, and now that the company is going to the gutter, they only care about shifting the blame and saving face. It's not entirely their fault, but, this isn't just any company. It's an organization that millions of people around the world love and are emotionally invested in.



For the time being we dont need progressive coach. We need disciplinarian who can instill military discipline and dont bother a rat arse about trophy for the time being.

We need some hard man for clear out and build from there. Hell I'd take roy keane for a year or two

The strict disciplinarian will not last a single season, if the high echelons don't agree that wholesome changes are needed in the first team. The mentality of the club has to change because it's the club itself that has made many of these players believe that they are the dog's bollocks and that they can either say or insinuate anything they want in the media.

We need the progressive and good manager to identify 2-3 quality signings in positions that will make the team better and what we need even more is a good structure that will give him the opportunity to sign the right players who will hit the ground running.

When we'll look again like a team that's going places, even if we can't challenge right away, the noise will go away. They are making a fuss right now because they like their fat pay checks and they can easily hide their weaknesses/failings behind the club's current predicament. The only way we can fix that is by moving forward, not with a rod. Create an attacking trident similar to the Ronaldo/Tevez/Rooney one without Rashford, and see whether the latter's performances pick up or not. But to do that you don't need Roy Keane, you need a good manager and intermediates that will convince the board that this is the way forward.
 
Agree with most of this, but i also think that you're letting them for some of their actions off the hook way too easily. I don't mind them believing that they deserved someone better than Mourinho, Solskjaer or even Rangnick (who was never going to stay as manager) to train them. I won't hold it against them if, in private conversations, they feel that the club should have targeted other players in the summer (e.g. the rumours that Ronnie came in and stirred the dynamics both in the dressing room and the first team). It may not always be normal, but it is certainly expected in any working environment when things aren't going as planned.

But some of them are definitely playing their part in this. And, in the end, it's not Rangnick they're hurting, but the club itself. This is what most fans have a problem with. I don't know about you, but Shaw's "lack of love" at United rubbed me up the wrong way. Because he is shitting on the club. A club that has done, and continues doing, lots of mistakes that hinder its footballing operations. But, nevertheless, a club that stood by his side during the darkest period of his career. Such was/is the belief that he would become the next Irwin/Evra for us, that we still haven't signed a left back that can seriously make the spot his by challenging Shaw. Similarly, when Rashford hints to mismanagement by Solskjaer, you can't say that there's not a case to made there. But the way he carries himself on the pitch, doing his own thing and looking disinterested, shows someone who believes he's too important for the United brand. All this talk about how he wants a new contract or else... Jesus Christ. Can you blame people for believing that all the leaks/SM posting will simply vanish if he's offered Sancho's wages?

And that's just two of them. You can add Lingard posting with a WHU shirt or Raiola blaming United for everything and claiming that Pogba is basically doing us a favour by staying. The list is endless. It's one thing just giving it your best and failing. But when you know you're doing all you can, you're usually OK with yourself and you don't need to create all this drama just to tell the world: "Look, it's not my fault". What we have here is closer to an office full of well-paid employees, most of which have been promoted way beyond their qualifications, and now that the company is going to the gutter, they only care about shifting the blame and saving face. It's not entirely their fault, but, this isn't just any company. It's an organization that millions of people around the world love and are emotionally invested in.





The strict disciplinarian will not last a single season, if the high echelons don't agree that wholesome changes are needed in the first team. The mentality of the club has to change because it's the club itself that has made many of these players believe that they are the dog's bollocks and that they can either say or insinuate anything they want in the media.

We need the progressive and good manager to identify 2-3 quality signings in positions that will make the team better and what we need even more is a good structure that will give him the opportunity to sign the right players who will hit the ground running.

When we'll look again like a team that's going places, even if we can't challenge right away, the noise will go away. They are making a fuss right now because they like their fat pay checks and they can easily hide their weaknesses/failings behind the club's current predicament. The only way we can fix that is by moving forward, not with a rod. Create an attacking trident similar to the Ronaldo/Tevez/Rooney one without Rashford, and see whether the latter's performances pick up or not. But to do that you don't need Roy Keane, you need a good manager and intermediates that will convince the board that this is the way forward.

Good manager who doesnt have balls will get sabotaged rough by the likes of our primadonnas.

Attitude is king. When we got our basics right then we talk about savvy.

Even pep would struggle with the likes of rashford simply because he doesnt give a feck about effort.

What good is rinus michel if the player dont follow or cant follow his instruction
 
"They don't want ETH because he'll make them do drills."

"They don't care about winning, they only want the money."

I mean, people actually believe this kind of nonsense.

And, yes - it is nonsense. They probably do care about money, I'd imagine (most people do in one way or another), but that doesn't mean they have no pride or ambition, and it certainly doesn't mean that they wouldn't rather be winning things (and still make a ton of money, of course).

This "toxic attitude" narrative is tailor made for hysterical fans who want something (or someone) particular and concrete to rage at. The truth is that United's problem is a multifaceted and complex one. It certainly isn't something as obvious and simple as having too many players who just can't be arsed to train hard and put in a proper shift on the pitch.

The players are one problem, sure - but it's much more likely that as a group they're lacking in quality rather than in basic attitude.
 
Agree. Even in the seasons we’ve done ok, like when we finished 2nd, our players were still very inconsistent. Rashford, even at his best, was sloppy at times and made poor decisions in the final 3rd. Pogba, always inconsistent. Fred, mctominay. Lindelof, Shaw.
Ralf says we aren’t lacking technicality but I disagree, especially in midfield. We need players who not only can pass well but also execute the passes accurately 90% of the time.
We need to clear out 10 and bring in 5 or 6 in an ideal world.
 
Its getting to a point that Man Utd fans dont even know what trying looks like anymore. Anybody can play and look like they are putting in effort. Its impossible not to unless you are standing still. But there is a million miles between the effort that Man CIty/Liverpool players put in and ours. Its literally night and day. If people cant see that then I dont know what to say. There could be an argument that its not intentional. Maybe its a mental thing. No matter how much you tell yourself you want to win if your heart is not in it then its nearly impossible to put on a peak performance. But its nothing to do with tactics or ability. Its about heart and desire. If you are telling me those players are putting in the heart and desire of a Keane/Scholes etc or even Henderson/Salah etc or Man City players then Im a chicken.
 
I don't think our squad is particularly toxic. I don't think some of them have outstanding, elite mentalities - but neither do I believe they don't care or don't try.

I think what people consistently fail to comprehend, despite Rangnick saying it again recently, is that our squad is completely unsuitable/unprepared for the physical nature of the Premier League.

De Gea is the most cowardly GK in the league, scuttles about sideways on his line like a crab and pulls out of 50:50s with attackers. Pogba just doesn't want to run. Bruno is constantly rolling about on the floor and whining. Martial doesn't want to run. Rashford is so lightweight and weak. Sancho is slow. Fred is too small and too weak. Ronaldo is 37 and lacks pace. Matic moves like a cargo ship.

In addition, we have signed players recently like Diallo, van de Beek and Pellistri who all lack physicality and are never going to be consistently high-performing PL footballers.

Talent is one thing. Pogba, for example, almost certainly has more ability than the likes of Rodri, Henderson and Fabinho. However, if I had to choose on to play in CM, I'd pick any of those three over Paul Pogba. There's 'talented' and then there's 'effective'.

In modern PL football, you absolutely MUST be able to run and hunt at high-intensity, you must be tough and durable and you must be able to take hits. We have so many players who just can't do any of these things.