Toxic squad or just not good enough? I´ll go for the latter.

simplyared

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So many threads and comments about quality players, overpaid, downing tools, not being arsed, not playing for the badge etc etc.

Not true imo!

The only player I can see who maybe fits that description is Pogba. Maybe Shaw who looks to be lazy and gives that impression.

Our latest additions: Look at Sancho. Can anyone say he’s anything above ordinary? Is he giving 100%? I’d say yes. Same goes for Varane!

Lindelöf gives all but he’s average.

AWB, Dalot, Telles I would say play at their peak but question is are they good enough?

Matic does his best when he comes on. Coming off the bench ok!

Mc T probably best example of a player who does play for the badge at least. Good enough?

Maguire, as slow as he is, can perform but with all the stick he’s had he’s lost his bottle.

Rashford is suffering the same problems as Maguire. Otherwise he’s one of the few I personally rate.

Elanga gives all he’s got but certainly not ready yet. Qualitywise no!

We can go on!

Quality players: Fernandes, Ronaldo, Fred (at a pinch)

Thats it!
 
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Honestly, I think it's the coaching/staff. The squad has had its ins and outs for the last decade and we've seen the same thing over and over.

Staff = people in charge of off field stuff, for example, transfers and scouting.

coaching = people in charge of on field stuff

Improve the coaching / staff to be better than other clubs, and we will inevitably be a better team and start winning trophies again.
 
Both 5hite players and their all being payed a load of money. Board should be looked at looking at how many of our players are paid so much money
For so so little performance. Total change needed
 
Definitely not good enough. Everything else flows from that - it’s not like we would not criticise them any less for finishing 7th or 8th if they were all self-effaciing and ego free.
 
Really is a combination of both, too many overpaid players who think they are much better than they really are.

It's what happens when you pay a bunch of players twice or three times what they are really worth, without them having done anything to justify the wage on the pitch.
 
simplyared said:
So many threads and comments about quality players, overpaid, not being arsed, not playing for the badge etc etc.

Not true imo!

The only player I can see who maybe fits that description is Pogba. Maybe Shaw who looks to be lazy and gives that impression.

Our latest additions: Look at Sancho. Can anyone say he’s anything above ordinary? Is he giving 100%? I’d say yes. Same goes for Varane!
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I think most people would :lol:

But I agree strongly on the rest.
This "toxic" stuff is ludicrous, like we have a peak Chelsea dressing room all conspiring to get managers sacked for some inexplicable reason.
 
I feel the coaching is big issue. We dont seem to do the simple things right. Our players are poor passers, more often than not we screw up a simple 5 yard pass and invite pressure. We can hold possession or recycle the ball which again invited pressure. We are extremely poor crossers and our full backs find the corner flag with a lot more accuracy than a player in the box. When it comes to pressing we seem to simply just run and tire out in 30 mins. This is more of a coaching issue than it a players issue.
 
Eli Zee said:
Honestly, I think it's the coaching/staff. The squad has had its ins and outs for the last decade and we've seen the same thing over and over.

Staff = people in charge of off field stuff, for example, transfers and scouting.

coaching = people in charge of on field stuff

Improve the coaching / staff to be better than other clubs, and we will inevitably be a better team and start winning trophies again.
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Yep it doesn’t make sense any other way. Think of the amount of players we have signed who have regressed after joining us - it’s too common a phenomenon to be chance or that we’ve just signed bad eggs who want a payday and can’t be arsed.

Hire average managers and under qualified staff and you can’t act surprised when players start to appear more average.
 
hobbers said:
Pogba, Lingard, Martial, Bailly, Rashford, Maguire, Henderson, Greenwood and VDB have all clearly exhibited various degrees of toxic behavior. Either themselves or through their agents or their PR teams.

All the leaks, PR briefs against the club, family members stirring it up on social media, blaming Ole, disparaging coaches, disparaging Ralf, disparaging whoever comes next, agents disparaging the club, agents holding the club to ransom, endless whinging from most of them.

Hopefully we're rid of 5 or 6 of them soon enough.
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Anything concrete to back up what you're saying?
 
Oranges038 said:
Really is a combination of both, too many overpaid players who think they are much better than they really are.

It's what happens when you pay a bunch of players twice or three times what they are really worth, without them having done anything to justify the wage on the pitch.
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Yes indeed.
It is a bit of both. And a very big issue of awful culture.
There is a serious problem of poor mentality, lack of desire, coupled with far too many bang average players.
 
hobbers said:
Pogba, Lingard, Martial, Bailly, Rashford, Maguire, Henderson, Greenwood and VDB have all clearly exhibited various degrees of toxic behavior. Either themselves or through their agents or their PR teams.

All the leaks, PR briefs against the club, family members stirring it up on social media, blaming Ole, disparaging coaches, disparaging Ralf, disparaging whoever comes next, agents disparaging the club, agents holding the club to ransom, endless whinging from most of them.

Hopefully we're rid of 5 or 6 of them soon enough.
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Talk about a dumb and unsubstantiated claim.
 
I think an element of both for sure which doesnt make for a good mix.

So many steady eddies in this squad, good professionals but just not good enough for this club's starting XI...other than squad players..mediocrity accepted by ole and his staff
Add to that the ego crew who care far more for their brand/image than working hard for the shirt and stink the place out
Add to this the hangers on , with big contracts


I look at the squad and other than the GK I see very few shining lights to build a squad around... Varane, Bruno, Sancho, Bailly at a push and they too are very inconsistent/ injury prone

Greenwood was on that list too bud god knows where that will end up.
 
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We pay too much, so moving players on is too difficult, so we have a squad bloated with players who should have been moved on years ago. Lowering overall quality.
 
Both. I don't see how you can ignore the attitude issues with the press leaks, Lingard's antics, Rashford's moodiness, the Pogba circus, Luke 'I'm happy with England and I knew i'd outlast Jose' Shaw, Martial's sulking etc, also Bruno and Maguire seem very sensitive (understandably in some respects)

Equally I see no problem/hear no stories concerning the attitude of players like Lindelof, Fred, Elanga, DDG, Varane, McTominay, Dalot, Telles, Mata, Matic etc. How many of those players would get into a top team though? :(
 
Players keepy: De Gea, Sancho, Ronaldo, Bruno, Varane, Shaw, Elanga, AWB (yes but not necessarily a starter), Lindelof (not starter) - from first team (ignoring Mejbri etc.)

Need new CB, RB, CDM, Striker, RW for starting 11
(bench - Elanga, AWB, Lindelof)
 
I think the culture of the club is one of competent complacency. Do just enough to OT to stop it falling down. Do just enough to keep the revenue streams flowing. Do just well enough for CL football most years. No effort to excel, or innovate - not failing in a personally accountable way becoming more important than success.

Same with the squad. Though oddly, I put the demise there as starting with LvG because he seemed to revel in the idea of an error free world, where no one covered for anyone, because no one was supposed to make a mistake, and everyone was to stay in their positional and professional box. Probably unfair to blame him (especially all these years later) but that's when I first saw the complacency set in. As long as it was someone else's fault - you weren't the headline.

The toxicity now comes when everyone has run out of people to blame on the pitch - so the PR battle takes over.
 
Everyone is to blame and as others have said it’s mostly that the club is happy to just be mediocre. We’ve had too many players, managers, coaches etc over the last 10 years and seen pretty much the same level of rubbish served up no matter the combinations. That can only be due to systemic levels of complacency from top to bottom. I bet even the cleaners dont do a good job cause no one picks them up on it and just put out a social media apology to the club.
 
hobbers said:
Try any newspaper article about the club since October that quotes anonymous sources....

Or any quotes from Raiola or Martial or VdB's agents.

Or social media posts from Maguire and Lingard's family members.
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You mention Pogba, Lingard, Martial, Bailly, Rashford, Maguire, Henderson, Greenwood and VDB. If you believe what they've said on social media, or supposed to have said, is the reason why the club is in the state it's in, then you are deluded.
Pogba we already know about!
Lingard returned after having a sucessful stint at West Ham. Since he came back you can count his minutes on one hand. So of course he's not happy with that. He's not good enough anyway so he can moan as much as he wants. Exactly what I'm saying not good enough!
Martial not good enough and has been rightly offloaded.
Bailly doesn't seem the type of person who'd be too bothered as long as he's lifting a wage. Again not good enough for utd exactly what I'm saying.
Greenwood is null and void. He was good enough but that's out of the window now.
VDB if I'm honest I feel sorry for. You can argue he didn't really get a chance to prove himself but tbf he's mediocre and nothing more. He'll probably fight to get into the Everton team. Again strengthens my claim regarding quality.
What have Rashford and Maguire said exactly on social media that would have a negative effect on the club?
As I've explained to you and also in the OP. We lack quality throughout the squad which is a far bigger issue than certain "average" players throwing their toys out of their prams or having a "toxic" influence on the club.
 
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Mixture of everything. A toxic situation is created at the club because:
  1. Increased expectations last summer due to good previous season, and big transfer window, but were left with a bloated squad
  2. Failure to live up to expectations because of holes in the squad, lack of quality in some areas and a subpar manager
  3. Bloated squad becomes a toxic situation because team is failing, players are off form, too many players not getting game time so it hurts everything. If team was winning, it can at least quiet the dissenting voices a bit
  4. The bloated squad and lack of quality at manager position snowballs into killing everyone's confidence and cohesion. Small complaints turn into a big thing.
  5. Squad becomes toxic.
  6. Interim manager takes over to save a failed season, except motivation is low among the squad as most are leaving in the summer
Basically this. Its not like we have a bunch of bad eggs in the group. There is no evidence to show that they are not decent guys who care. But the situation has been handled really poorly, so everything is amplified.
 
Looking at last weekends fixtures you can go as far down the table as 10th spot and find Aston Villa. I'd take the 3 out of their back 4 - Cash, Mings and Digne and it would be an upgrade on what we've got. McGinn and Ramsey from their MF and Watkins and Coutinho and it would strengthen our current starting line-up.
 
The problems are numerous but if we're going to focus in on whether the players are good enough or not good enough, the answer is clearly good enough, but with a massive caveat -- they're vastly underperforming.

"Good enough" means only that we are good enough for fourth place. We're nowhere near being good enough for a proper PL trophy run, for which we can thank Joel, Woody and Ole for out consistent mediocrity.

Who among us hasn't seen Pogba, Rashford and Maguire perform vastly better than they have this season? I've never been a fan of Martial, but even I would concede that Martial has performed vastly better in the past than he has this season. Wan-Bisakka has as well. You could say the same for Sancho, although Sancho finally pulled it altogether in the second half of the season (sans this weekend's terrible performance). Greenwood self-immolated for non-pitch reasons, but even Greenwood didn't look nearly as sharp this season as he did in the past.

We definitely need to improve our midfield. There are no excuses for the excrement that McTominay in particular have served up this season.

Joel, Wood and Ole contributed the dumpster fire that took over Old Trafford, but the players on the roster are good enough to have comfortably buttoned down fourth place and they're vastly underperforming. They must shoulder their fair share of blame for their own performances.
 
Comfort zone. Too many players are in a comfort zone and it doesn’t suit them to leave. There are two types.
1) It doesn’t suit them to make noise or leave and aren’t bothered who the manager is: Phil Jones is the epitome of this group (but older squad members who hardly play have also fallen into it but are not as extreme)… don’t really need to explain why he’s in a “non toxic” comfort zone but imagine how him being there effects others who are actually playing. He sets the minimum benchmark, gets paid more than most premier league players and doesn’t even play.

2)Next we have what I call the comfort zone toxic players. These are the players who are in a comfort zone, realistically it doesn’t suit them to leave but at the same time it does suit them to make noise, leak stuff and it is in their interest who the manager is. These are a few regular players.

These are players who don’t want the strict training regime & accountability that comes with being a title challenging team. They love being at an elite club, they get a top wage, and by being at United get the best sponsorship deals. Leaving doesn’t suit them for financial and international career reasons. They are happy as is, not being held accountable after every draw & defeat and every wasted season. Maguire, Shaw, Rashford.

Then we have the divas they want to win, know they can win but don’t lead by example. Pogba

Obviously we also have some average players but you don’t need 11 world class players to challenge for the title.
 
bosnian_red said:
Mixture of everything. A toxic situation is created at the club because:
  1. Increased expectations last summer due to good previous season, and big transfer window, but were left with a bloated squad
  2. Failure to live up to expectations because of holes in the squad, lack of quality in some areas and a subpar manager
  3. Bloated squad becomes a toxic situation because team is failing, players are off form, too many players not getting game time so it hurts everything. If team was winning, it can at least quiet the dissenting voices a bit
  4. The bloated squad and lack of quality at manager position snowballs into killing everyone's confidence and cohesion. Small complaints turn into a big thing.
  5. Squad becomes toxic.
  6. Interim manager takes over to save a failed season, except motivation is low among the squad as most are leaving in the summer
Basically this. Its not like we have a bunch of bad eggs in the group. There is no evidence to show that they are not decent guys who care. But the situation has been handled really poorly, so everything is amplified.
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My opinion too, it's not like we have a group of players that are purposefully planning on bringing the club down.
 
The club has fostered a culture of paying massive wages to players who are constantly underperforming.
Then there is the renewal of contracts of players who should have been moved on.
Hopefully we will see less of that in the future but I am not hopeful if honest.
 
hobbers said:
You mean VDB the guy who's agent has been in the press criticising United about half a dozen times so far?

Not saying in his particular case he has no right to be aggrieved. But justified or not it's still a fine example of contributing to a toxic atmosphere. A lot of the current toxicity can be directly laid at Ole, Woodward and Judge's doors for shit signings and moronic contract extensions, sucking up to no-mark players and their agents and making promises they had no intention of keeping.
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His agent has every right to say what he said after two years of his client being messed around (and it was anything particularly aggravating, certainly not worse than Shaw's honest recitals every few months).

This is not like Pogba coming in and on day 3 Raiola (predictably) was running his mouth. Van de Beenk's careers has gone to the gutter because he was too naive a few too many time. If it was me personally, I'd be causing an absolute stinker and getting out of that shit show of a club.
 
jojojo said:
I think the culture of the club is one of competent complacency. Do just enough to OT to stop it falling down. Do just enough to keep the revenue streams flowing. Do just well enough for CL football most years. No effort to excel, or innovate - not failing in a personally accountable way becoming more important than success.
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100% agree with this. Complacent from top to bottom.
 
Sandikan said:
I think most people would :lol:
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I think alot of posters here are going solely on their form at United and are forgetting the other several years worth of evidence. Apparently Varane isn't good enough because of his bad three-quarter season.
 
Neither?

Some are good enough, some aren’t

When did our squad suddenly become one homogenous blob that can fit under one label?

It seems to have happened in the last six months and we’ve decided it’s all the players fault after a decade of underachievement

Whoever the new manager is will come in and work with the current players, see that some are up to it and realise some aren’t.

A lot of these players who are suddenly lazy, toxic or shit have had successful seasons either here or elsewhere. The idea that they are all suddenly wasters is nonsensical..
 
Tarrou said:
Neither?

Some are good enough, some aren’t

When did our squad suddenly become one homogenous blob that can fit under one label?

It seems to have happened in the last six months and we’ve decided it’s all the players fault after a decade of underachievement

Whoever the new manager is will come in and work with the current players, see that some are up to it and realise some aren’t.

A lot of these players who are suddenly lazy, toxic or shit have had successful seasons either here or elsewhere. The idea that they are all suddenly wasters is nonsensical..
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So it's the culture at United? Serial winners come here, and see how everyone is taking it chill, no pressing, no rush, no intent. Imagine watching the equivalent to Rashfords match performances in training, it surely shows that there's no point working hard or trying your best, because you'll get a new and improved contract anyway.
 
Barnslig said:
So it's the culture at United? Serial winners come here, and see how everyone is taking it chill, no pressing, no rush, no intent. Imagine watching the equivalent to Rashfords match performances in training, it surely shows that there's no point working hard or trying your best, because you'll get a new and improved contract anyway.
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Yeah, after so many years of failure the squad mentality as a whole is weak and very low in confidence.

New players come in, start well but eventually lose their confidence and start to play worse. But they don't suddenly become bad players.

We're crying out for a mentally tough manager in the mould of ETH, in my opinion. And some players just won't cut it under him but others will.

If we appoint Poch instead I can definitely see the negative cycle continuing under him. He would try to work them hard but I'm not sure he has the mentality to turn this ship around.
 
padzilla said:
The club has fostered a culture of paying massive wages to players who are constantly underperforming.
Then there is the renewal of contracts of players who should have been moved on.
Hopefully we will see less of that in the future but I am not hopeful if honest.
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Yeah Judge has constantly fecked up on the contract renewal side of things, like you say we have massively overpaid players for years.
 
Not good enough is McT. Never stops running but alas not good enough.

Not giving an arse is rashford and pogba and shaw. Too lazy to even run.

When you have shown effort i can discount performance
 
Tarrou said:
Yeah, after so many years of failure the squad mentality as a whole is weak and very low in confidence.

New players come in, start well but eventually lose their confidence and start to play worse. But they don't suddenly become bad players.

We're crying out for a mentally tough manager in the mould of ETH, in my opinion. And some players just won't cut it under him but others will.

If we appoint Poch instead I can definitely see the negative cycle continuing under him. He would try to work them hard but I'm not sure he has the mentality to turn this ship around.
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I don't know enough about ETH myself, but some younger coach that would work well in a sort of RB rebuild under Ralf and Murtough would be ideal. Personally I believe our problems are above the manager and/or coaching, and most, if not all, will struggle under the structure of the club (which Murtough apparently have been working on behind the scenes). We need a wholesale change to the entire club, simply selling a few players, buying a few players and replacing the manager is never going to be anything but a very expensive bandaid attempting to stop the bleed, but it won't. Were in real, real trouble and the next few years and key appointments will dictate Manchester Uniteds future.
 
For the time being we dont need progressive coach. We need disciplinarian who can instill military discipline and dont bother a rat arse about trophy for the time being.

We need some hard man for clear out and build from there. Hell I'd take roy keane for a year or two
 
I totally agree with the OP. At a certain level, it doesn't compute to me that a club would have a big percentage of the squad made of players who just don't care. It's just impossible
 
A lot of them probably aren't good enough but it's difficult to give an objective assessment of what's going wrong when almost everything looks bleak at the moment.

Some of this is down to poor recruitment, in the summer the club were willing to allow the midfield situation fester in return for signing Ronaldo. The coaching probably isn't great, some of them clearly can't be arsed and the cherry on the cake was that our best player got taken away from us in unforseen circumstances because he's been behaving like a prize arsehole off the pitch.

We've got a multitude of problems. I can only hope that the new manager will be given enough backing that he'll be able to sort most of them out, and that he'll have the final say on the futures of those who don't fancy it.
 
Oranges038 said:
Really is a combination of both, too many overpaid players who think they are much better than they really are.

It's what happens when you pay a bunch of players twice or three times what they are really worth, without them having done anything to justify the wage on the pitch.
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Unpopular opinion, but we've just repeated that error.
 
There's a few tossers with bad attitudes. Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Lingard. They'd all be amongst the first out the door for me.

Then there are plenty who aren't good enough. Maguire, McTominay, wan Bisaka, Bailey, Shaw

Then we've got a couple pensioners leading the line (when fit) Ronaldo and Cavani

Then there's the deadwood who should've been gone ages ago. Jones and Mata.

It must surely be the worst squad in the history of football relative to money spent.
 
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