Top 4 race / race abandoned (or maybe not) / Leicester & Chelsea in the process of bottling it

cyberman said:
Of course it does. Second was a mirage between 6th and that disaster of a third season. Plus we werent even the second best team that year, we were only second because Liverpool signed VVD in January and focused on CL. Nobody is near us today.
This second is different because we finished 3rd last year. It shows consistency over two seasons and finding a rhythm of play. That second meant nothing because it was such a leap from the year before, and DDG had his best ever superman season, that it distorts any sense of progress made.
Click to expand...
I guess i see that season differently. We were good pre christmas but the football got more tumescent as the season progressed. We still came a comfy 2nd got to the f a cup final and cruised through our champions league group in first place before the Seville debacle.
DDG was much more influential under LVG than this season for me.
in any case my point is that coming 2nd or 3rd in itself only matters if you then kick on and win titles in the following seasons. If we dont next season it will be a failure.
 
cyberman said:
Plus we werent even the second best team that year, we were only second because Liverpool signed VVD in January and focused on CL. Nobody is near us today.
Click to expand...

Are we conveniently ignoring that we’re likely only second this season due to the same reason, VVD. And that Chelsea having Frank in charge was a massive helping hand, because since Tuchel came in it’s been a different story altogether.

Both seasons we finished (or will soon finish) second as the second best team, you don’t have to downplay one to big up the other.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Are we conveniently ignoring that we’re likely only second this season due to the same reason, VVD. And that Chelsea having Frank in charge was a massive helping hand, because since Tuchel came in it’s been a different story altogether.

Both seasons we finished (or will soon finish) second as the second best team, you don’t have to downplay one to big up the other.
Click to expand...
Nope. Because we have been consistently good for 18 months now with our record being a rival for anyone over that time.
Chelsea arent better until proven otherwise. That gives them too much credit since Oles record is even better than Chelseas since Tuchel took over.
That Liverpool side were on the up, VVD being one of the final pieces of the jigsaw only to add Fabinho the next summer. Thats not happening now, if anything Bruno is our VVD mid season signing that negated the first half of the year. Both of us werent the same teams that started the season so in those instances the table does lie.
For me its simple. Oles 3rd place is better than Joses second place becsuse we built on it for a probable 2nd place this season. Jose got second and nothing. Chaos. Its why it never made sense to me to compare both seasons. Ole is on course to accomplish both of Joses best moments in 1 season. He didnt finish 6th chasing EL glory and he could win a trophy while finishing second.
 
cyberman said:
Nope. Because we have been consistently good for 18 months now with our record being a rival for anyone over that time.
Chelsea arent better until proven otherwise. That gives them too much credit since Oles record is even better than Chelseas since Tuchel took over.
That Liverpool side were on the up, VVD being one of the final pieces of the jigsaw only to add Fabinho the next summer. Thats not happening now, if anything Bruno is our VVD mid season signing that negated the first half of the year. Both of us werent the same teams that started the season so in those instances the table does lie.
For me its simple. Oles 3rd place is better than Joses second place becsuse we built on it for a probable 2nd place this season. Jose got second and nothing. Chaos. Its why it never made sense to me to compare both seasons. Ole is on course to accomplish both of Joses best moments in 1 season. He didnt finish 6th chasing EL glory and he could win a trophy while finishing second.
Click to expand...
I personally think we have been decent but far less impressive than you seem to for the last year.
I guess the answer will be in how we do next season. Win the title or come very very close and it will all be vindicated as progress, but if we dont and we finish lower down the league then this season will be not much different to 3 years ago
 
cyberman said:
Nope. Because we have been consistently good for 18 months now with our record being a rival for anyone over that time.
Chelsea arent better until proven otherwise. That gives them too much credit since Oles record is even better than Chelseas since Tuchel took over.
That Liverpool side were on the up, VVD being one of the final pieces of the jigsaw only to add Fabinho the next summer. Thats not happening now, if anything Bruno is our VVD mid season signing that negated the first half of the year. Both of us werent the same teams that started the season so in those instances the table does lie.
For me its simple. Oles 3rd place is better than Joses second place becsuse we built on it for a probable 2nd place this season. Jose got second and nothing. Chaos. Its why it never made sense to me to compare both seasons. Ole is on course to accomplish both of Joses best moments in 1 season. He didnt finish 6th chasing EL glory and he could win a trophy while finishing second.
Click to expand...

I hope people think Ole is all that for years to come. This idea of building a squad over years is an old way of thinking. The amount of TV money all teams in the PL get means transfers is going to be how teams are built, and built quickly. Players move much more now so the only season you really have to work with is this season. Sure, you plan for future seasons, but the only given is now. I would rather have Roman's ruthless demands, win now or you will not be here next year.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
So Liverpool were on the up but Chelsea aren’t, despite looking favourites to get to the CL final and an incredible PL record since TT took over.
Erm... ok.
Click to expand...
They arent because Liverpool were shooting up the league. Back then they had their pressing and I think was their best ever period under Klopp. They were going out and destroying everyone. They blitzed City to even get to the CL semi final.
Chelsea are floating from 5th to 4th and the two doesnt mesh. CL run on its own doesnt mean much, Liverpool had both added to blowing teams away and winning the big games in style. They were the second best team in England when the season finished, Chelsea could realistically finish 5th.
 
Zaphod2319 said:
I hope people think Ole is all that for years to come. This idea of building a squad over years is an old way of thinking. The amount of TV money all teams in the PL get means transfers is going to be how teams are built, and built quickly. Players move much more now so the only season you really have to work with is this season. Sure, you plan for future seasons, but the only given is now. I would rather have Roman's ruthless demands, win now or you will not be here next year.
Click to expand...
Old way in thinking as Klopp did it all those eons ago?!
 
Focusmate said:
I personally think we have been decent but far less impressive than you seem to for the last year.
I guess the answer will be in how we do next season. Win the title or come very very close and it will all be vindicated as progress, but if we dont and we finish lower down the league then this season will be not much different to 3 years ago
Click to expand...
But this isnt that Jose season imo This is the season after coming third and building on it. We are on course to match Citys points total from last season, we are already seeing the progress.

Edit i should really read all notifications before replying, thats 3 posts in a row ffs
 
cyberman said:
Old way in thinking as Klopp did it all those eons ago?!
Click to expand...

Klopp had a team that had not won in 30 years. Is that what you want for Man Utd? We dont have the money these oil teams do....false. We need to build a winning team over many years...false. Man Utd fans need to start to demand NOW. The Glazers seem to only care about CL money and selling swag, If that is what you want, this idea that it will happen in a few years is right in line with how the Glazers want it.
 
Zaphod2319 said:
Klopp had a team that had not won in 30 years. Is that what you want for Man Utd? We dont have the money these oil teams do....false. We need to build a winning team over many years...false. Man Utd fans need to start demand NOW. The Glazer seem to only care about CL money ad selling swag, If that is what you want, this idea that it will happen in a few years is right in line with how the Glazers want it.
Click to expand...
Klopp took over a side that finished 7th and built a title winning side over 2 to 3 seasons. You cant spend your way to the title over 1 summer because you will be outspent by City every time or end up disjoined and floating between 4th and 5th after signing too many players like Chelsea.
 
cyberman said:
Klopp took over a side that finished 7th and built a title winning side over 2 to 3 seasons. You cant spend your way to the title over 1 summer because you will be outspent by City every time or end up disjoined and floating between 4th and 5th after signing too many players like Chelsea.
Click to expand...

Like I said, I hope you have people that are happy with Ole for years to come. I don't see him being a top manager, definitely a good one. I said earlier in this thread, a season with a CL title and FA cup win is a far better season for me than a 2nd place finish.
 
Zaphod2319 said:
Like I said, I hope you have people that are happy with Ole for years to come. I don't see him being a top manager, definitely a good one.
Click to expand...
Exactly this. Long may it continue (while Chelsea, Liverpool and City have some of the best managers in the world).
 
RobinLFC said:
Exactly this. Long may it continue (while Chelsea, Liverpool and City have some of the best managers in the world).
Click to expand...
Liverpool are going to replace Klopp with Gerrard, it's not really a matter of if but when.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Liverpool are going to replace Klopp with Gerrard, it's not really a matter of if but when.
Click to expand...
City and Chelsea are also going to replace Guardiola and Tuchel, and it's also a matter of when and not if.

It won't happen anytime soon.
 
Zaphod2319 said:
Like I said, I hope you have people that are happy with Ole for years to come. I don't see him being a top manager, definitely a good one. I said earlier in this thread, a season with a CL title and FA cup win is a far better season for me than a 2nd place finish.
Click to expand...
But youve won 1 CL title in your history. Its such an outside bet that it doesnt really matter to the point. Nobody has ever said a second place is better than those two win?
Again, Klopp built that over time. Its not a 1 versus other
 
cyberman said:
But youve won 1 CL title in your history. Its such an outside bet that it doesnt really matter to the point. Nobody has ever said a second place is better than those two win?
Again, Klopp built that over time. Its not a 1 versus other
Click to expand...

I would say that we have as a good a chance as anyone left to win. Some of our rival fans seem to think it isn't so, but we beat City in the FA semi. You seem to be very dismissive of Chelsea's success. I expect that from rival fans, but we are competing for trophies year in and year out. That defines success to me. PL winner defines success, the rest lost it. Top 4 is an economic necessity, but finishing in those places other than winning means little...at least to me. It is not like both of our teams are struggling, both have had good seasons. Frank's inexperience put us behind mid point of the season, but Tuchel has shown there is a talented team. Frank kept saying the team was not ready to compete at the top, Tuchel has shown he was wrong about that. You compete as hard as you can THIS season. Thinking it will improve next year is a recipe to underachieve.
 
Zaphod2319 said:
I hope people think Ole is all that for years to come. This idea of building a squad over years is an old way of thinking. The amount of TV money all teams in the PL get means transfers is going to be how teams are built, and built quickly. Players move much more now so the only season you really have to work with is this season. Sure, you plan for future seasons, but the only given is now. I would rather have Roman's ruthless demands, win now or you will not be here next year.
Click to expand...
I think what you have to realise is that the board we have don't actually care about sporting success. They want to do the bare minimum and aren't arsed as long as we get Top 4. Ole, on the other hand, I am sure is striving to get to the top but he has to work within the framework that his superiors have put in place. Which is for incremental improvement and stability. As a result, he isn't going to rock the boat because that has been proven to be counterintuitive by the previous two managers before him, but what he is instead seeking to do is to get that gradual improvement in the meantime and invest in young talent, particularly those who are on the cusp of breaking through like the kids in the academy or Traore and Pellistri.

As it is, I don't see it working out for him unfortunately because Covid has probably given the board the perfect excuse to not fully back him for the third season running, and there's only so far you can take the squad he currently has. A squad which has a bunch of holes within it and is horribly imbalanced.
 
Zaphod2319 said:
I would say that we have as a good a chance as anyone left to win. Some of our rival fans seem to think it isn't so, but we beat City in the FA semi. You seem to be very dismissive of Chelsea's success. I expect that from rival fans, but we are competing for trophies year in and year out. That defines success to me. PL winner defines success, the rest lost it. Top 4 is an economic necessity, but finishing in those places other than winning means little...at least to me. It is not like both of our teams are struggling, both have had good seasons. Frank's inexperience put us behind mid point of the season, but Tuchel has shown there is a talented team. Frank kept saying the team was not ready to compete at the top, Tuchel has shown he was wrong about that. You compete as hard as you can THIS season. Thinking it will improve next year is a recipe to underachieve.
Click to expand...
Im not dismissive, youre arguing that a fa cup and CL win is better than clear second when youre as likely to finish 5th and win nothing as we stand. You havent won anything yet.
All im saying is long term planning can lead you to multiple league titles and deep runs into CL instead of these Spurs like runs when its 1 run and thats it, or at the very least many years inbetween. Youve won 1 league title since Jose left with a mid table finish and many years of scraping into top 4 inbetween.
Im failing to see the benefit of this hire em and fire em approach over having a strong base that lasts over multiple years.
Even City built the infrastructure for long term success. When teams fall its usually down to chasing short term success.
 
cyberman said:
They arent because Liverpool were shooting up the league. Back then they had their pressing and I think was their best ever period under Klopp. They were going out and destroying everyone. They blitzed City to even get to the CL semi final.
Chelsea are floating from 5th to 4th and the two doesnt mesh.
Click to expand...

Chelsea just knocked City out of the cup, beat Atletico home and away and should’ve beaten Real away last night & have the best record in the PL since TT took over bar City.

He took over after 19 PL games when they were in 9th, on just 29 points. They HAVE shot up the league from 9th to now 4th with a 3 point cushion and TT has as many points as Frank (29) in just 14 games.

So if Liverpool finished that Jose season as 2nd best team, why is it a different story for Chelsea just because it doesn’t fit your narrative?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Chelsea just knocked City out of the cup, beat Atletico home and away and should’ve beaten Real away last night & have the best record in the PL since TT took over bar City.

He took over after 19 PL games when they were in 9th, on just 29 points. They HAVE shot up the league from 9th to now 4th with a 3 point cushion and TT has as many points as Frank (29) in just 14 games.

So if Liverpool finished that Jose season as 2nd best team, why is it a different story for Chelsea just because it doesn’t fit your narrative?
Click to expand...
Because City won the league and Liverpool almost had the better second half the season than even they did. They destroyed City at Anfield 4-3 where feck knows how City got 3, destroyed them in the CL by aggregate 4-1, destroyed Porto, destroyed Roma as well. 17 goals in 3 knockout rounds to take them to the final. One of the most imressive runs to the final in history.
Meanwhile Ole has 2 less points than Tuchel since taking over while Chelsea is in a fight for fourth.
Just because Chelsea are grinding through the CL doesnt mean they are on the same level of a Liverpool who need Karius in goals to be stopped.
Everybody knew Liverpool were better than us. The crying on here at the time confirmed it. Lamenting signing VVD, how they had Salah and Mane instead of flop Mata and Sanchez. Its not conjecture. You have 6 months of posts on here to research the general concensus. Meanwhile Chelsea struggles to score and create atracking patterns that stretches the opposition.
 
cyberman said:
Because City won the league and Liverpool almost had the better second half the season than even they did. They destroyed City at Anfield 4-3 where feck knows how City got 3, destroyed them in the CL by aggregate 4-1, destroyed Porto, destroyed Roma as well. 17 goals in 3 knockout rounds to take them to the final. One of the most imressive runs to the final in history.
Meanwhile Ole has 2 less points than Tuchel since taking over while Chelsea is in a fight for fourth.
Just because Chelsea are grinding through the CL doesnt mean they are on the same level of a Liverpool who need Karius in goals to be stopped.
Everybody knew Liverpool were better than us. The crying on here at the time confirmed it. Lamenting signing VVD, how they had Salah and Mane instead of flop Mata and Sanchez. Its not conjecture. You have 6 months of posts on here to research the general concensus. Meanwhile Chelsea struggles to score and create atracking patterns that stretches the opposition.
Click to expand...
just as they had a karius we have a karius up front
these wouldnt be 1-0 or 1-1 games had we had a decent finisher up top
 
Pow said:
just as they had a karius we have a karius up front
these wouldnt be 1-0 or 1-1 games had we had a decent finisher up top
Click to expand...
To be fair they had Firminho. Also its not like youre creating chance after chance and Werner keeps missing, he misses 1 of the 2 chances you create a game!
You can legislate for a forward who doesnt score, not a keeper who cant save. Its not a credible comparison.
 
cyberman said:
To be fair they had Firminho. Also its not like youre creating chance after chance and Werner keeps missing, he misses 1 of the 2 chances you create a game!
You can legislate for a forward who doesnt score, not a keeper who cant save. Its not a credible comparison.
Click to expand...
tf you mean we cant legislate for someone who has missed 21 TWENTY ONE sitters this season
? firminho was good for them until last season he slowed down.
 
cyberman said:
They arent because Liverpool were shooting up the league. Back then they had their pressing and I think was their best ever period under Klopp. They were going out and destroying everyone. They blitzed City to even get to the CL semi final.
Chelsea are floating from 5th to 4th and the two doesnt mesh. CL run on its own doesnt mean much, Liverpool had both added to blowing teams away and winning the big games in style. They were the second best team in England when the season finished, Chelsea could realistically finish 5th.
Click to expand...
Liverpool were 4th when VVD signed and finished in the same position, and the main reason they achieved that was because Conte started acting like a mad man and was borderline throwing games.
 
Pow said:
tf you mean we cant legislate for someone who has missed 21 TWENTY ONE sitters this season
? firminho was good for them until last season he slowed down.
Click to expand...
Yeah but Karius wasnt throwing them every game, it was just amplified that final. If your striker isnt very good then your team just isnt as good as Liverpool were imo and im saying that as a Utd fan.
Itd also madness that Werner is a striker. He should have been converted to a Rashford type wideman years ago.
 
Dancfc said:
Liverpool were 4th when VVD signed and finished in the same position, and the main reason they achieved that was because Conte started acting like a mad man and was borderline throwing games.
Click to expand...
Liverpool tailed off at the end due to CL and nothing left to play for though. The same way if Leicester suddenly drop points when under no pressure this season.
Liverpool missed a few chances to go above Utd with 6 or 7 games to go, they were that close.
 
Dancfc said:
Liverpool were 4th when VVD signed and finished in the same position, and the main reason they achieved that was because Conte started acting like a mad man and was borderline throwing games.
Click to expand...

Doesn’t fit his narrative of “shot up the league”. Chelsea clearly are miles better now than they were in Jan, but if United finish 2nd it’s because over the course of the season they’ve been the second best side; just as they were when Jose had us finish second.
Next season will see this Chelsea journey continue and no doubt a much improved Liverpool with VVD back, but that has zero bearing on this unless you’re desperate for a narrative to make this 2nd a better achievement than a different 2nd.
 
cyberman said:
Liverpool tailed off at the end due to CL and nothing left to play for though. The same way if Leicester suddenly drop points when under no pressure this season.
Liverpool missed a few chances to go above Utd with 6 or 7 games to go, they were that close.
Click to expand...
They didn't secure 4th mathematically until the final day, they had to get a result vs Brighton to be sure.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Doesn’t fit his narrative of “shot up the league”. Chelsea clearly are miles better now than they were in Jan, but if United finish 2nd it’s because over the course of the season they’ve been the second best side; just as they were when Jose had us finish second.
Next season will see this Chelsea journey continue and no doubt a much improved Liverpool with VVD back, but that has zero bearing on this unless you’re desperate for a narrative to make this 2nd a better achievement than a different 2nd.
Click to expand...
Lampard was sacked when 11 points behind Utd. They are currently 9. The difference between us being that draw v Leeds a whole 3 days ago.
Chelsea shooting up the table is almost by default since the likes of Villa and Everton have fallen away badly. They are 4 points above 6th ffs despite Tuchel being here 3 months already. The reason Liverpool didnt go up many spots is because there wasnt shit in front of them to fall away.
We are also talking about the end result of Liverpool and that Jose season v todays Chelsea season that isnt even finished. I have no idea how both can be compared when Chelsea are actually teetering on having a disasterous season when its all said and done. Pretending its the same argument is ridiculous. That second placed finish was a fluke as was proven either side if it. Meanwhile its 2 top 4 finishes in a row and proof Ole can sustain it over multiple seasons
 
cyberman said:
Lampard was sacked when 11 points behind Utd. They are currently 9.
Click to expand...

So they’ve picked up 2 more points than the second best team in the league since he took over.
Yeah, that’s my point.

I’m not sure you even realised as you wrote that the Lampard after 19 games got 11 less points than us whereas in 14 games TT has got two more points than us.

Right now they have knocked City out of the FA cup semi, beat Atletico home & away, look on course for a CL final and are picking up more points than the second best side in the league this season.
If getting more points than us means that they are moving up by default when what the feck does that say about our second place.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
So they’ve picked up 2 more points than the second best team in the league since he took over.
Yeah, that’s my point.

I’m not sure you even realised as you wrote that the Lampard after 19 games got 11 less points than us whereas in 14 games TT has got two more points than us.

Right now they have knocked City out of the FA cup semi, beat Atletico home & away, look on course for a CL final and are picking up more points than the second best side in the league this season.
If getting more points than us means that they are moving up by default when what the feck does that say about our second place.
Click to expand...
He picked up two points after joining the week we lost to Sheff Utd and went on that bad run v West Brom etc. Lampard was up against the Utd who were showing title winning form before that. Again, its everybody around Tuchel dropping levels just when he joined Chelsea.
We are going in cricles here but all ill say further is the fact Jose claimed second that year was amongst his greatest ever achemievements isnt because he took the second best team to second in the league. Imo this is more impressive because its coming off a top 3 finish and shows consistency rather than over reliance on DDG brilliance for 12 months.
 
Oh and can we just shut up this silly debate with this, VVD made his PL debut for Liverpool on 14th Jan.

They played 15, won 8, lost 3, drew 4. That’s 28 points, 1 less than TT has managed in 14 games.

They lost to Swansea in Jan, and WBA in the FA Cup, lost to United in March, and Chelsea in May.

So by every metric TT is outperforming the “final piece in the jigsaw” Liverpool 2017-2018 side but cyber aint having it cause of his nonsense narrative. TT has even had much harder cup games to steer through and an insane schedule.
 
Zaphod2319 said:
I hope people think Ole is all that for years to come. This idea of building a squad over years is an old way of thinking. The amount of TV money all teams in the PL get means transfers is going to be how teams are built, and built quickly. Players move much more now so the only season you really have to work with is this season. Sure, you plan for future seasons, but the only given is now. I would rather have Roman's ruthless demands, win now or you will not be here next year.
Click to expand...
Could you tell our owners that, please, they don't seem to have got the message.
 
Didn’t take Leicester long to show why people shouldn’t have been shitting themselves about finishing above United.
 
Think Leicester will finish top 4 but that's not a nice fixture list they have left. Needed to be winning that really.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.