Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

[TheHorse'sMouth]

I watched the Barca vs Spartak game before the United game and the commentator said this about Xavi Hernandez:

"The special thing about Xavi is he calculates the percentage of the pass reaching his target, and only passes it when he knows he'll reach his man."

Whilst the same can't exactly be said for Tom yet, you're right in the fact that people seem to under appreciate his "playing the percentages" style of play. There were times in the Barca match where I was thinking why Xavi wasn't passing it to an unmarked team-mate, then lo and behold half a second later the player was being marked and Xavi had spread the ball to the opposite side of the pitch, and had initiated an attack.

Sometimes it's not even a confidence issue about playing the killer ball, it's actually confidence that chooses not to and chooses to keep possession. I bet some players would be angry at Tom for not attempting to play them through, and instead choosing to play it simple.

The thing about Xavi is that he will play the final ball when it's on, and sometimes even when its not on yet the runner anticipates Xavi's vision. There is a quote attributed to Xavi; 'Xavi plays in the future'. It's really what makes him stand out above your excellent central midfielder. Xavi may look unspectacular when bouncing passes across the midfield and defence but his ability to see a final pass from 30-40 yards out in the modern game both across the deck or through the air is unrivalled..certainly only very few come even close to the level of accuracy and vision.

Cleverley is a decent player, he likes to play with the ball to feet but in the games I've seen him play(admittedly I haven't watched a lot of Man United this season), he seems reluctant to play the penetrative pass even when it's on. Anderson does it, Carrick does it on occasion, Kagawa definitely does it...it could just be a confidence thing but you'd like to see him show a bit more in his passing than passing square all game. There is of course risk through losing possession, but it's a learning game and it's only through making the mistake that he'll judge the weight of the pass better the next time round. Players like Parker and Henderson play it square all game because they don't have it within them to play the final ball..Cleverly is evidently more talented than both of them, he should look to improve on this aspect in his game to become a more authoritative midfielder.

 

[surf]

The thing about Xavi is that he will play the final ball when it's on, and sometimes even when its not on yet the runner anticipates Xavi's vision. There is a quote attributed to Xavi; 'Xavi plays in the future'. It's really what makes him stand out above your excellent central midfielder. Xavi may look unspectacular when bouncing passes across the midfield and defence but his ability to see a final pass from 30-40 yards out in the modern game both across the deck or through the air is unrivalled..certainly only very few come even close to the level of accuracy and vision.

Cleverley is a decent player, he likes to play with the ball to feet but in the games I've seen him play(admittedly I haven't watched a lot of Man United this season), he seems reluctant to play the penetrative pass even when it's on. Anderson does it, Carrick does it on occasion, Kagawa definitely does it...it could just be a confidence thing but you'd like to see him show a bit more in his passing than passing square all game. There is of course risk through losing possession, but it's a learning game and it's only through making the mistake that he'll judge the weight of the pass better the next time round. Players like Parker and Henderson play it square all game because they don't have it within them to play the final ball..Cleverly is evidently more talented than both of them, he should look to improve on this aspect in his game to become a more authoritative midfielder.

All true. His passing is largely conservative. His best asset, as mentioned above, is tempo. He is a dynamic midfielder who is always moving and in a good position to receive the ball and pass it on quickly. Of course, the best midfielders tend to be good in both parts, passing and tempo. He is the type of player who will improve considerably with experience.

Watching him and Powell today, you could see the differences. Powell played like an attacking midfielder, Cleverley is more of a water carrier/deeper lying player. A good team needs both kinds.

 

[Feed Me]

It is not a bad thing. At a club like Manchester United I feel that you need more than Cleverley is offering, at the moment.

Look, we just don't have the players in the centre of the park. I think that Clev can get better and at least he does have intensity in his play, but I do feel that he needs to get more to his game than he is showing at the moment.

No you don't. We need continuity players in CM - those who recycle the ball, quickly, to the side's creative players.

Cleverley is an upgrade on Scholes and Giggs because he moves the ball quicker and he is perennially moving.

People are obsessed with having creative central midfielders - totally unnecessary, and not what's wrong with United's midfield in the slightest.

 

[CapeTownRed]

No you don't. We need continuity players in CM - those who recycle the ball, quickly, to the side's creative players.

Cleverley is an upgrade on Scholes and Giggs because he moves the ball quicker and he is perennially moving.

People are obsessed with having creative central midfielders - totally unnecessary, and not what's wrong with United's midfield in the slightest.

Couldn't agree more. As long as there are players capable of using quick ball. With the form of our wingers at present it's tricky...

 

[Ash_G]

Cleverleys style is fine but I think as yesterday showed it makes a massive difference having players close by as we saw for the majority of the game, it was very evident how more difficult he found the game when we went to a 442.

 

[Feed Me]

Couldn't agree more. As long as there are players capable of using quick ball. With the form of our wingers at present it's tricky...

The wingers are dreadful at the moment, but they're not being helped by the painfully slow and deliberate build up play from our central midfielders.

Any time Nani, Young and Valencia finally receive the ball, the opposition have had time to get back into position, and are in their shape. We're compounding our wingers' poor form by giving them no space to play in.

If you look back over the past month or two, the best, most memorable bit of wing play came from Valencia against Chelsea - occasions where we were springing and funnelling the ball to him early, and he was able to exploit the space.

 

[Feed Me]

Cleverleys style is fine but I think as yesterday showed it makes a massive difference having players close by as we saw for the majority of the game, it was very evident how more difficult he found the game when we went to a 442.

That's as much linked to personnel as it is formation.

In fairness, if we had switched to a 4-4-2 of Young, Carrick, Cleverley, Valencia, Rooney and van Persie, then we'd have had a better grip on the game.

 

[Ash_G]

Hmmm personally I would say that the problems have been more the wingers themselves, think Valencia and young have been getting the ball in great areas for them but have done nothing with it, not offered any other sort of option cuch as coming inside or running in behind etc

 

[Godfather]

That's as much linked to personnel as it is formation.

In fairness, if we had switched to a 4-4-2 of Young, Carrick, Cleverley, Valencia, Rooney and van Persie, then we'd have had a better grip on the game.

And still had created feck all with those 2 on the wings

 

[Ash_G]

That's as much linked to personnel as it is formation.

In fairness, if we had switched to a 4-4-2 of Young, Carrick, Cleverley, Valencia, Rooney and van Persie, then we'd have had a better grip on the game.

Not if they brought their form with them. Rooney an rvp would have made a difference particularly with a short option ahead of clev but I think with how rigid the wingers have been playing clev would have suffered as his quick short passes would be limited as they'd both be about 20 yards away from him every time he got the ball.

 

[Feed Me]

Hmmm personally I would say that the problems have been more the wingers themselves, think Valencia and young have been getting the ball in great areas for them but have done nothing with it, not offered any other sort of option cuch as coming inside or running in behind etc

As I said, I think it's a combination of the two factors. We'd be giving our wingers a better chance if we got the ball out wide to them earlier. I'm all for keeping possession until the pass becomes available, but don't half dilly-dally in midfield sometimes.

 

[Feed Me]

Not if they brought their form with them. Rooney an rvp would have made a difference particularly with a short option ahead of clev but I think with how rigid the wingers have been playing clev would have suffered as his quick short passes would be limited as they'd both be about 20 yards away from him every time he got the ball.

My general point is that Rooney and van Persie are far better players than Hernandez and Macheda. Carrick is also a better option than Fletcher. We'd have carried more of a threat with the 4-4-2 I posted.

In spite of the wingers' form, we've still been scoring freely, meaning the forwards must have been doing something right.

 

[Ash_G]

As I said, I think it's a combination of the two factors. We'd be giving our wingers a better chance if we got the ball out wide to them earlier. I'm all for keeping possession until the pass becomes available, but don't half dilly-dally in midfield sometimes.

Clevs higher tempo and quicker passing would make a difference but I think ultimately if the wingers played in the form they are and the way they are, staying so far away from the midfielders and rvp/Rooney that he'd be hindered in his game. Like I said it makes a big difference to his style having numerous players nearby to work passes with and in that 442 there is just too much space between the players.

 

[Feed Me]

Clevs higher tempo and quicker passing would make a difference but I think ultimately if the wingers played in the form they are and the way they are, staying so far away from the midfielders and rvp/Rooney that he'd be hindered in his game. Like I said it makes a big difference to his style having numerous players nearby to work passes with and in that 442 there is just too much space between the players.

If you pick Nani on one flank, Rooney in the number 10 role and Cleverly in central midfield, then you have three players that will all naturally converge on the space between midfield and attack regularly throughout games.

I agree with your general point though - when we pick the wrong players in the 4-4-2, there is a wasteland between midfield and attack.

 

[Ash_G]

If you pick Nani on one flank, Rooney in the number 10 role and Cleverly in central midfield, then you have three players that will all naturally converge on the space between midfield and attack regularly throughout games.

I agree with your general point though - when we pick the wrong players in the 4-4-2, there is a wasteland between midfield and attack.

Ah yeah agree right players in the right form and he could fit in a treat like start of last season but with the stability of carrick in the middle and extra quality of rvp up top. But in this rigid system it just inhibits everyone and I think the midfielders get the stick for something which is not really a problem of their making though of course they do have issues.

Personally I'd love to see a 433 with Rooney playing the a/m role ahead of clev and kagawa and a winger preferably nani flanking rvp but with lisence to drift.

 

[Ekeke]

Havent read all the posts so not sure if its mentioned yet but, interesting results from looking at the top 10 average passes per game in the champions league this season.

As you'd expect Barcelona dominate with 6 players in the top 10 and Igor Denisov managed to come just above Dani Alves in the top 5. After Alves you have Xabi Alonso in 6th. Again no surprise that he's there, perhaps more of a surprise that Denisov is ahead of him.

And who is this placed 8th right behind Xabi Alonso and in front of the Premier League's player with highest pass output in Arteta...

Its Tom Cleverley. 8th most passes per game in the champions league this season with 84.3, 92.9% accuracy and 2 key passes per game. Very impressive.

So Arteta, Fabregas, Moutinho, Pirlo and Montilivo among those lower down the list than Tom and of course his United teammates.

 

[Massive Spanner]

People are obsessed with having creative central midfielders - totally unnecessary, and not what's wrong with United's midfield in the slightest.

Yeah, I've been saying this since the Sneijder days. We're far more in need of a player who can get the ball into those advanced positions in the first place, move the ball quickly, play one-twos etc. We've seen this season that if we get the balls to our forward players they have more than enough in their locker to provide them, so this whole "creativity" thing is a bit weird.

Saying that, our main problem in midfield is lack of defensive cover, and movement, and pressing. Ah feck it, let's be honest, pretty much the whole midfield is weak, way too weak for a club like us, but at least Cleverley would make it less fecking weak, if we played him!

 

[apotheosis]

Cleverleys style is fine but I think as yesterday showed it makes a massive difference having players close by as we saw for the majority of the game, it was very evident how more difficult he found the game when we went to a 442.

Spot on, this is the key point many seem to be missing. Our 4-4-2 doesnt have enough players in and around Clevs for him to play pass and move too often. Who is within 15 yards of him usually? Only Carrick really. Hard to employ a pass and move tactic when there is so much space between players.

This is exactly why he excelled next to Anderson, because Anderson will keep close to Clevs, and give him the option, whereas Carrick is reluctant to step forward in a similar fashion, so Clevs only options are back to Carrick or out wide.

I doubt we will ever see the best of Clevs until we play a narrower formation with far less emphasis on touchline width. Tbh it doesn't really benefit any of our midfielders, it limits their options on the ball, and demands they cover far too big an area individually when they are trying to get it back.

 

[apotheosis]

If you pick Nani on one flank, Rooney in the number 10 role and Cleverly in central midfield, then you have three players that will all naturally converge on the space between midfield and attack regularly throughout games.

I agree with your general point though - when we pick the wrong players in the 4-4-2, there is a wasteland between midfield and attack.

Nani comes inside only when he has the ball though. This is the point, it's starting positions that leave so much room. He rarely makes runs into midfield to receive passes from midfielders, nor does Valencia on the other side. They stay wide to receive it, once he has the ball Nani may cut inside, butrarely beforehand.

Note when we had Kagawa in the 10 role, there was 15 yards of space betwwen him and the wingers, midfielders and rVP up top. the 4-4-2 that we employ depends on width to stretch teams, but it also stretches our own and that presents the problems we have in midfield.

 

[Comsmit]

Havent read all the posts so not sure if its mentioned yet but, interesting results from looking at the top 10 average passes per game in the champions league this season.

As you'd expect Barcelona dominate with 6 players in the top 10 and Igor Denisov managed to come just above Dani Alves in the top 5. After Alves you have Xabi Alonso in 6th. Again no surprise that he's there, perhaps more of a surprise that Denisov is ahead of him.

And who is this placed 8th right behind Xabi Alonso and in front of the Premier League's player with highest pass output in Arteta...

Its Tom Cleverley. 8th most passes per game in the champions league this season with 84.3, 92.9% accuracy and 2 key passes per game. Very impressive.

So Arteta, Fabregas, Moutinho, Pirlo and Montilivo among those lower down the list than Tom and of course his United teammates.

It is impressive I agree, although I do think it is wise to consider the opposition United have thus far faced. I don't think anyone could suggest Cluj, Braga and Gala are among the best sides in the Champions League this year. Those sides don't press the ball as well as the top outfits. I saw a stat before the Braga game that suggested United were second only to Barca in Europe this season in terms of passes completed.

I will be even more impressed if he is still in the top ten up to say....the quarters? Providing this team get that far. He is important to United as he is the only player that can properly link defence to attack. He needs to come out of his shell more to truly fulfill his talent. Shouldn't be afraid to fail.

 

[Ash_G]

Nani comes inside only when he has the ball though. This is the point, it's starting positions that leave so much room. He rarely makes runs into midfield to receive passes from midfielders, nor does Valencia on the other side. They stay wide to receive it, once he has the ball Nani may cut inside, butrarely beforehand.

Note when we had Kagawa in the 10 role, there was 15 yards of space betwwen him and the wingers, midfielders and rVP up top. the 4-4-2 that we employ depends on width to stretch teams, but it also stretches our own and that
presents the problems we have in midfield.

I think nani does make good runs inside, he makes runs behind the defence that aren't always picked up, but he doesn't do it a huge amount I agree. However I think we're the system to change to allow him to do this more than he would.

Early season with kagawa we were still trying to stick to a 4411 system where players kept their positions. I think were the mentality to change and they were allowed more freedom it would make a big difference. Personally as I've said in other threads I think if we can get rvp Rooney kagawa nani clev and carrick on the pitch, which we easily could in a 433 with carrick fixed as the holder than we would have a very formidable team that would get a lot out of all of them, with only kagawa playing a bit wider out of position, but he of course could drift just like mata/hazard/silva do.

 

[Ekeke]

United are actually 2nd most accurate passers this season behind Barcelona by 1% and thats in domestic leagues, not CL. We've actually kept the ball very well, visibly better than in the past although we obviously dont have the possession stats that Barca and some of the other top teams do.

You're right to want to bring some context to Cleverley's stats there but I think most other top sides have had one or two weaker teams as well. We just havent had the one big fish you generally expect to have in your group stage this season.

 

[Ash_G]

I think the problems with looking at the cl games is that we've set up to be very controlling playing a somewhat narrow diamond but I wouldn't say we've been particularly creative within that formation. We've had lots of good retention and movement of the ball in the middle but when we get to the edge if the box we've struggled.

I think though it does show the benefits of having players closer together both possession and defensively wide and by slightly adjusting it to bring in more creative players like a nani or kagawa then we could get a lot of joy.

 

[Platato]

Ye Ash, it's something that I don't worry about too much because it's something we can build off of. Honestly don't think we're too far away from clicking together as a unit. IMO, it does matter what style we choose to play with though.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don't think his passing is too conservative. I think it's slightly conservative but he's not like Joe Allen. Cleverley is a very positive player who plays good forward passes every game. It's a slight tweak rather than a monumental shift thats required.

 

[apotheosis]

I think nani does make good runs inside, he makes runs behind the defence that aren't always picked up, but he doesn't do it a huge amount I agree. However I think we're the system to change to allow him to do this more than he would.

Early season with kagawa we were still trying to stick to a 4411 system where players kept their positions. I think were the mentality to change and they were allowed more freedom it would make a big difference. Personally as I've said in other threads I think if we can get rvp Rooney kagawa nani clev and carrick on the pitch, which we easily could in a 433 with carrick fixed as the holder than we would have a very formidable team that would get a lot out of all of them, with only kagawa playing a bit wider out of position, but he of course could drift just like mata/hazard/silva do.

Yes i agree again. It is the rigidity of the wide players which stifles our ability to play a shorter, more progressive passing game. We usually just play across the pitch from one side to the other until one of the wingers decides to take on a full back and get a ball in.

We saw against Norwich how predictable that can be, and also how much we rely on service from Valencia to make a breakthrough. All our eggs were in one basket really using that system, and because Valencia had a poor game in terms of his delivery, we created very little as a result.

We just need to get away from using wingers in every game in my view. Playing a more narrow system encourages shorter pass and move football, and allows for a wider variety of movement in central areas, because there is far less emphasis on staying out wide.

 

[Ash_G]

I don't think it's even the problem of using wingers it's using then and keeping them so wide, you can have attacking players like them but they don't have to always stick so strictly to their wing, let them drift, our players are smart enough to find space and all work hard enough to cover for anyone. If there's someone like Valencia who doesn't fit in with that style than maybe when he plays we can tweak the system but in general giving the mobility would help us a lot.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I got slated on here a few months ago for saying Cleverley wasn't a "creative" player.

Anyone still think he is?

 

[Ash_G]

I got slated on here a few months ago for saying Cleverley wasn't a "creative" player.

Anyone still think he is?

Not in the sense that he'll freuently put people in or anything, has good movement though. According to the stats on who scored he and clev have produced less chances out of all or our midfielders on average per game in the league which might surprise some. But in fairness and I think you said this earlier we don't really need a new creative hub just someone to help move the ball on quick and retain possession, in valencia nani kagawa, Rooney and rvp that's more than enough creativity and throw in young etc than if we can get them playing and linking up well the goals will come.

 

[Platato]

I got slated on here a few months ago for saying Cleverley wasn't a "creative" player.

Anyone still think he is?

Yep.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I got slated on here a few months ago for saying Cleverley wasn't a "creative" player.

Anyone still think he is?

Don't think he's a creative footballer in that he won't play the defence splitting pass that often in the same way Giggs has been over the last few years every now and then. What he does is, make the team more creative if that makes sense, which is very very important.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Not in the sense that he'll freuently put people in or anything, has good movement though. According to the stats on who scored he and clev have produced less chances out of all or our midfielders on average per game in the league which might surprise some. But in fairness and I think you said this earlier we don't really need a new creative hub just someone to help move the ball on quick and retain possession, in valencia nani kagawa, Rooney and rvp that's more than enough creativity and throw in young etc than if we can get them playing and linking up well the goals will come.

Yeah, that's basically Cleverley in a nutshell

 

[pocco]

I got slated on here a few months ago for saying Cleverley wasn't a "creative" player.

Anyone still think he is?

I was saying this whilst he was at Wigan and people had him down as Scholes' replacement. With maturity and confidence, who knows what he'll turn out to be, but I don't think we are a club that really encourages adventurous midfield play at the moment. Its out wide where we create mostly.

 

[Ekeke]

Cleverley is a fairly creative short passer and can create from crosses. But he's not one of those players who spots a team mate making a run 30 yards away and lands the ball in his stride so he can finish or will ignore the obvious pass, delay and somehow put the fullback in behind the defence when nobody else saw that. No thats not him. He's more of a ball retainer than anything else, but when I think of him I think of a player who completely embodies pass and move football. He passes and then he moves, Tom Cleverley.

 

[Bilbo]

I got slated on here a few months ago for saying Cleverley wasn't a "creative" player.

Anyone still think he is?

Cleverley is still evolving as a player, but yes I believe he is creative. Creativity doesn't just have to come in the final third.

I'm still very confident that we have a future top-class midfielder in our hands.

 

[#07]

Cleverley is still evolving as a player, but yes I believe he is creative. Creativity doesn't just have to come in the final third.

I'm still very confident that we have a future top-class midfielder in our hands.

I agree. Cleverley does play through balls and he has a tendency to try the chip over the top. He did it midweek to Powell, for example, it just didn't come off.

However what Cleverley prizes most is keeping the ball. He will only make a very difficult pass forward if its clearly on. We have all seen how he passes and takes the ball in tight areas its not as if he is incapable of threaded passes. But what I have noticed from his game is that he will 9 times out of 10 choose the pass that retains possession.

This has been called hesitancy by some people. Maybe it is? But surely its better to keep the ball than try and be Stevie G and hit it long and hopefully constantly in the hope one or two will come off?

One of the things that has annoyed me mostly about how we played against both Villa and Norwich is our tendency just to start playing long lofted balls 'up there' to nobody specific for much of the game. We only showed any decent form in both games when we actually started keeping the ball on the floor. When we went 4-4-2 in Turkey midweek immediately we started bypassing the midfield again and the result was the same. It was only once we got the ball down that we started making chances and Cleverley was central to carving out two in the last 5-10 minutes IIRC.

I'd much rather have him in there passing and moving than pretending to be Paul Scholes and looking like Jordan Henderson.

 

[Brightonian]

Cleverley is perfectly capable of producing incisive creative passes when they're on. The fact is that Gala defended very well for the whole match, and left very few gaps open. The reason Ando wasn't at his best was because he went for the through-balls anyway, and ended up losing possession a lot.

In matches where the opposition defence are less well-drilled, we see plenty of creativity from him. I can't remember who it was against, but earlier this season there was a match where he was noticeably threading Silva-esque through-balls all match, but it was before Hernandez found his form again and he kept scuffing up his one-on-ones.

 

[Andrew~]

Cleverley is perfectly capable of producing incisive creative passes when they're on. The fact is that Gala defended very well for the whole match, and left very few gaps open. The reason Ando wasn't at his best was because he went for the through-balls anyway, and ended up losing possession a lot.

In matches where the opposition defence are less well-drilled, we see plenty of creativity from him. I can't remember who it was against, but earlier this season there was a match where he was noticeably threading Silva-esque through-balls all match, but it was before Hernandez found his form again and he kept scuffing up his one-on-ones.

Through balls are, by definition, incredibly risky and almost never 'on'. They are high risk-high reward passes, so if you were playing the percentages, as Cleverly does, you would never try them out. And I think you have it the wrong way round, through balls are even more important against highly organised teams because they open up gaps and give the opponent an extra dimension to think about, whereas Cleverly style percentage play is better against less organised defences that will break their lines and not protect zones as effectively so keeping the ball allows you to be more methodical.

Not saying that Cleverly can't produce through balls, but he definitely hasn't done so as yet.

 

[Ramshock]

Can anyone shed some light on why Cleverley keeps getting omitted?

 

[gza the genius]

Looks like Powell is coming on, and as happy as I am to see that, what the feck does Cleverley have to do to get to play in the league?