Put it this way, Lothar Matthäus is the only midfielder I'd pick over Bryan Robson.
Today’s head to head : 2 really good left foot controlling and balance cm player = Xhaka vs Adam Wharton. Post on page 3
- Thread starter LuckyScout78
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Not Xavi and Iniesta too?
I think this thread shows that once a player has a career that gets to a certain level of accomplishment, and all-time great status, a mentality opens up in many where it becomes perceived as absolutely laughable to even compare them in any way whatsoever to many other players that were elite/great at some point, but didn't end up having a career that would be considered more than excellent, "generational great".,or maybe an up and coming big talent that is doing well, but still has a long way to go. Even though the other player might actually appear to be very close, or even better in various regards individually, so even if there's no debate about who gets ranked above the other overall, it can make for an interesting comparison/discussion.
They'll just get utterly mocked instead.
Matthaus didn't actually widely secure that GOAT tier midfield status until almost 30 ,with the cumulative success of winning the 88-89 scudetto with Inter, then most importantly the 1990 World Cup win ,and a further great 90/91 season with a Uefa Cup win. He then had a poor last season with Inter, got injured, sold and that was it for him as a great midfielder. by 94-95 he had to change to the ever reliable old-mans position of sweeper, which tbf he did very well and that added to his overall legacy.
Before that 88-91 run, he was established by the mid-80s as one of the best german and european midfielders, especially after the 86 final, but not necessarily clearly ahead of the big talents of various other countries, to the point there wouldn't be lots of arguing around it if we'd had the internet back then. He wasn't some Pele/Maradona level phenom that was locked in for expected all-time greatness from very early in their career. When playing in West Germany alone he was often competing with some other domestic players as far as being considered the best/most talented/most effective. He never won the player of the year while playing there during the '80s, and seems to have made the kicker team of the season three times in nine seasons...which is really good, but not the mark of someone that was already an all-time great.
Pre-88/89, i think you could compare him to Michael Ballack during the 00s, but not as dominant/relied on individually, as W.Germany had a great generation with various other players that were seen as around the same level, depending on the season. Like Ballack, he'd been part of various nearly man teams: Bayern losing the Cup Winners Cup semi- final to Everton, the European Cup final second half collapse against Porto, and a couple of quarter-final losses to Anderlecht and Real Madrid. He'd been matched, or outshone by a bunch of other very good to great '80s midfielders in most of these games.
Internationally he was still a bit-part player for 82, the was part of the failure of 84, and the quite heavily domestically criticised (including by their own manager Beckenbauer) for playing bad football 86 team. that side were underwhelming for most of the tournament, despite a great squad, and made very difficult work of arguably the easiest R16/quarter final draw possible, They then draw an obviously more tired France in the semi-final, who had faced tougher competition, including very intense games vs USSR and Brazil. His performance in the final against Maradona was a big boost to his reputation, but it somewhat obscured that he had not looked like a midfielder in the class of Beckenbauer, Netzer or Overath for most of the earlier games, or any better than some of the other currently highly regarded midfielders at the tournament. Nor had that W.Germany looked as good as any of their previous world cup sides going back to '66. '88 was a similar story, at his peak now and the captain; plays well, but not any better than various other midfielders.
Don't get me wrong, i think he eventually earned his reputation as one of the goat midfielders, and was an excellent player, but he's not some footballing superman, or extemely rare talent like Pele or Messi that it is pointless to compare most players to. He was more of an example of the opposite, that you can still eventually get to that top-tier even if you don't have an extravagantly superior skillset to quite a few of your contemporaries. Especially if you're from one of the big international football countries, you're sometimes only a few tournaments away from a big jump in regard, even later in career. Likewise, not hard at all to see just a few seasons/tournaments going slightly different and him ending up being viewed as just a top 80s midfielder, not an all-time great.
I think if you're comparing a great player with a finished career with a current one that many think has a chance of ending up great, then you should look at what the older player had done at the same age, and then watch some games of comparable importance. De Jong compared to Matthaus with both up to 25 actually is interesting, and arguably not unfavourable to Frenkie in some ways, but i think he's going to have to rely more on club success for any case at greatness; Netherlands don't have the talent or depth to play below their capabilities and still blunder through big parts of tournaments like W.Germany did in 86.
btw, Matthaus goal record can be potentially misleading. He was a prolific supporting scorer from open play, but not quite to the well out of the ordinary level for a box-to-box midfielder that a quick glance at his numbers might have some believing. He was a penalty specialist, and once you account for them, most of those 10+ league seasons come down into single figures, with quite a few European tournament/international penalties as well.
They'll just get utterly mocked instead.
Matthaus didn't actually widely secure that GOAT tier midfield status until almost 30 ,with the cumulative success of winning the 88-89 scudetto with Inter, then most importantly the 1990 World Cup win ,and a further great 90/91 season with a Uefa Cup win. He then had a poor last season with Inter, got injured, sold and that was it for him as a great midfielder. by 94-95 he had to change to the ever reliable old-mans position of sweeper, which tbf he did very well and that added to his overall legacy.
Before that 88-91 run, he was established by the mid-80s as one of the best german and european midfielders, especially after the 86 final, but not necessarily clearly ahead of the big talents of various other countries, to the point there wouldn't be lots of arguing around it if we'd had the internet back then. He wasn't some Pele/Maradona level phenom that was locked in for expected all-time greatness from very early in their career. When playing in West Germany alone he was often competing with some other domestic players as far as being considered the best/most talented/most effective. He never won the player of the year while playing there during the '80s, and seems to have made the kicker team of the season three times in nine seasons...which is really good, but not the mark of someone that was already an all-time great.
Pre-88/89, i think you could compare him to Michael Ballack during the 00s, but not as dominant/relied on individually, as W.Germany had a great generation with various other players that were seen as around the same level, depending on the season. Like Ballack, he'd been part of various nearly man teams: Bayern losing the Cup Winners Cup semi- final to Everton, the European Cup final second half collapse against Porto, and a couple of quarter-final losses to Anderlecht and Real Madrid. He'd been matched, or outshone by a bunch of other very good to great '80s midfielders in most of these games.
Internationally he was still a bit-part player for 82, the was part of the failure of 84, and the quite heavily domestically criticised (including by their own manager Beckenbauer) for playing bad football 86 team. that side were underwhelming for most of the tournament, despite a great squad, and made very difficult work of arguably the easiest R16/quarter final draw possible, They then draw an obviously more tired France in the semi-final, who had faced tougher competition, including very intense games vs USSR and Brazil. His performance in the final against Maradona was a big boost to his reputation, but it somewhat obscured that he had not looked like a midfielder in the class of Beckenbauer, Netzer or Overath for most of the earlier games, or any better than some of the other currently highly regarded midfielders at the tournament. Nor had that W.Germany looked as good as any of their previous world cup sides going back to '66. '88 was a similar story, at his peak now and the captain; plays well, but not any better than various other midfielders.
Don't get me wrong, i think he eventually earned his reputation as one of the goat midfielders, and was an excellent player, but he's not some footballing superman, or extemely rare talent like Pele or Messi that it is pointless to compare most players to. He was more of an example of the opposite, that you can still eventually get to that top-tier even if you don't have an extravagantly superior skillset to quite a few of your contemporaries. Especially if you're from one of the big international football countries, you're sometimes only a few tournaments away from a big jump in regard, even later in career. Likewise, not hard at all to see just a few seasons/tournaments going slightly different and him ending up being viewed as just a top 80s midfielder, not an all-time great.
I think if you're comparing a great player with a finished career with a current one that many think has a chance of ending up great, then you should look at what the older player had done at the same age, and then watch some games of comparable importance. De Jong compared to Matthaus with both up to 25 actually is interesting, and arguably not unfavourable to Frenkie in some ways, but i think he's going to have to rely more on club success for any case at greatness; Netherlands don't have the talent or depth to play below their capabilities and still blunder through big parts of tournaments like W.Germany did in 86.
btw, Matthaus goal record can be potentially misleading. He was a prolific supporting scorer from open play, but not quite to the well out of the ordinary level for a box-to-box midfielder that a quick glance at his numbers might have some believing. He was a penalty specialist, and once you account for them, most of those 10+ league seasons come down into single figures, with quite a few European tournament/international penalties as well.
I didn't read all this mate, even as a Barça fan I wouldn't dare put De Jong on the same level as Matthaus, whats the point of the comparison?
That was a very interesting read thank you, I think my main gripe with this comparison is that FDJ is for now a lot more style than substance. He's yet to produce a world class season with Barcelona and It's quite clear that Pedri has a lot more influence than him in the current system. So comparing him to someone with an all time great status is a bit silly to me while he isn't even the best midfielder in his team for now.
Maybe if you'd read it, you'd have a better idea?I didn't read all this mate, even as a Barça fan I wouldn't dare put De Jong on the same level as Matthaus, whats the point of the comparison?
Well I read it, and I don't want be mean but it's a very surface level analysis.
Roy Keane vs Eric Djemba Djemba. Make it happen
This is a very good post, as expected, but the problem is you're looking at it from the top down rather than bottom up, as in, you'll see plenty of posts questioning what De Jong has done in his career to draw comparison with Matthaus, and I'd bet if he'd carried his Ajax level through to this point in his career, there'd be some grounds for comparison or at least discussion.
Let's remove Matthaus' ascendency and then ask the question again; does what De Jong has then done compare? As footballers, does Matthaus' level dip so much as to be considered a poorer player or rather one who we can assume greater success will not be in their grasp at a later date? At what point does De Jong and his skilset supplant this iteration of Matthaus and what he offered a team - foundations have to be there to become so great, after all.
Besides that, the seemingly random nature of comparison between a goal-shy, deeper-seating midfielder who has little desire to even shoot and perhaps the most all-action, driving midfielder who tried his damnedest to affect play from CM we've seen, is going to confuse and entertain from the outset. Compare type to type, at the very least, no? Or parse all of the dynamic attacking seasons from Matthaus' career and then try again to compare them, if you must.
How much overlap is there between them at any time to compare, actually? It could be better argued they'd feature in the same midfield performing different tasks for the team than be directly compared to one another.
De Jong's dire scoring rate reduces the pool of midfielders - even of type - to compare him to, instead elements of his game then should supposedly come to the fore, so there is the angle you approached the subject from, but there's also the diametrically opposed one, too.
Has anyone ever routinely hit the ball as hard as Matthaus? Dude fecking smashes it.
“Ale house clogger” is a beautiful turn of phrase.
Oh the alacrity and impunity to dare question the nuanced genius @LuckyScout78!
Now I get "PS I am not into discussion = I won't respond" it all makes complete sense now. Thank you once again for opening my eyes @LuckyScout78 - this site is not worthy of you
To be frank, this feels like an attempt to praise de Jong, hidden behind a wall of text that pretends to be an objective assessment. The implicit message is "FdJ is close to a legend of the game", which would be debatable as an open claim. Instead its masked as a comparison, and simply assuming both are on a comparable level. The intention might be to turn that assumption into a fact, while avoiding the debate.
TBF this has the potential to be an interesting discussion, he is just comparing their skillsets. My main gripe is that they are not even the same type of players.
Someone like Valverde or Goretzka will make a better comparison.
Someone like Valverde or Goretzka will make a better comparison.
What has FDJ achieved in his career so far to be compared with Matthaus? When FDJ win the world cup for Netherland and also win the Ballon d'Or then I can understand.
My favourite anecdote about Matthaus - besides the one of him lying to his wife about team meetings to go bang his mistress in Switzerland - told by Bergomi about Matthaus walking into the dressing room before an important game and seeing his teammates looking tense, telling them not to worry, he'll score the 1-0 in the 20th minute and then he'll set up a second at the end of the first half and they'll cruise from there. And then actually did it
So did you lot actually reach a consensus on who's better, that ain't gonna be easy.
I wouldn't have thought to compare them either, especially not in simplistic overall head to head manner that luckyscout did, but that post isn't so much about De Jong vs Matthaus directly, as it is between the way people often go about comparisons/discussions between players that established themselves as more than just your typical "generational or club great", and ones that ended up on that level or slightly below, or are current players that had a lot of people think have great potential, but aren't there yet.
Too many payers get to a certain level of reputation/success and that leap into sacred cow territory then occurs, where they become closed off to comparison with almost all other players in their position (broadly speaking), Most discussion will be met with plenty of "he's nowhere remotely close in any way" sort of posts, even if it's just a partial comparison of stylistic qualities, or periods of their careers etc..
it's just the way football gets talked about online, and i get that, it's been the same since the usenet days, but it still bothers me sometimes because for a lot of those greats, it's elevating their individual ability well beyond how their career actually played out, and usually fails badly to reflect the deep talent pool that football has. Most have a group of positional competitors that will be fairly rated close/equal to them at different times, or are of similar talent in their own generation (or even league) alone; they'll have to work hard to secure that eventual higher status and maybe also have some good fortune regarding injuries,transfers, and maybe also competitors with just as much talent not having as much dedication . The players that were just so good that they genuinely didn't have more than 1 or 2 others remotely near them in productivity or talent throughout their career, and were seen as all but locked in for all time greatness from early on, the ones that actually merit that sort of hyperbole...imo, you can probably count them in single digits.
tbh, this maybe wasn't the most suited thread to get into all that, but Matthaus is one of the ideal all-time great level of reputation players to make the point with.
Success and peak matter and his have very few equals in history among midfielders
Sometimes I like to believe Fontaine has moved on in his life and has become LuckyScout78
I get where you're coming from, and from the broader aspect, can agree that once a player becomes transcendental, they will mostly never be observed as a whole again, but isn't that part and parcel of all sport, and perhaps life itself?
The journey may be picked up on but the destination is what people are most interested in.
Luka Modric is perhaps the perfect archetype of what you're saying (on this board at least); dig far enough back through the archives, and he was a figure of ridicule deigned not good enough to even be bought by the-then high-flying Manchester United. Fast forward 15yrs and the only midfielders he's ever spoken about in regards to comparison are Xavi, Iniesta and other certified all-time greats, with discussion as to whether he's literally the best midfielder of all-time abounding. He's not held in the same universal esteem as Matthaus, but I'm sure a comparison between he and De Jong would be seen in a similar light (mirth inducing).
Your initial post outlines Matthaus' ascendency, but as I stated: there has to be foundations there for such obscene leaps to take place. Let's cite the triumvirate of Platini, Zico and Maradona and how history has treated them as opposed to the reality of what the landscape looked like throughout the body of their work up to June 1986. Maradona may have had the talent and the plaudits (most expensive player), but no trophies of worth to back him in Europe; he was not seen in the untouchable light now observed between them and reserved for him, but, the talent to go on to do what he did was always evident and undeniable, which was my point about Matthaus.
Even if he didn't go into overdrive and deliver as he did, he was still a player with the attributes and potential to do so. So even then, stripped of what he became, is there any merit in the comparison between skillset and body of work between someone like that and the De Jong who has been mostly underwhelming thus far in his career? Ironically, it is he who looked like a potential all-timer straight out the traps, with his plaudits for the body of work put forth at Ajax immediately elevating him to one of the best midfielders in the world, reflected also in his transfer fee, wage and the select few clubs even capable of vying for his services. As I said previously: if De Jong had continued along that assured path to greatness, this thread would be an open debate and for good reason.
Not looking too deeply into this for a moment, "Matthaus" and "De Jong" in a head-to-head comparison is so off the cuff, luckyscout that it was bound to get a reaction, and again, even if one may be seen as the bar and pinnacle of an archetype, it's more on the lesser of the two being so underwhelming that I think generates comments and clicks as opposed to the perceived godliness of Matthaus. It's also a matter of expectation: Matthaus-esque; Robson-esque; Rijkaard-eque, you just don't hear such terms thrown about because you're essentially setting the candidate up for failure 99% of the time as the bar and expectation of what they are up against is set and is most likely going to lead to detraction. If you want to make a point about De Jong should it really be done against Matthaus with the burdens that is accompanied with?
A behemoth vs a delicate flower. Loddar wins this all day every day. De Jong a better passer, give me a break. Loddar had all the passing range in the world while little Frenk moves the ball a long quite nicely.
Please do Firminho vs Del Piero next.
Please do Firminho vs Del Piero next.
Both of Matthaus and Frenkie De Jong are not totally same type of player. But both of them are ball carrier from the defend to the attack. Both of them has play as CB. Ball playing CB and CM. In same category.
But like melodies. None of football players and human are 100 % same. Close, but will never be the same. Things and persons always is changing and never the same.
But like melodies. None of football players and human are 100 % same. Close, but will never be the same. Things and persons always is changing and never the same.
For those who have following from late 1990 and early 2000. Ex Brazil’s and Inter’s legend. He was a beast of CB. He was super aggressive, robust and really hard to beat and past one vs one.
He became one time world champion with Brazil in 2002. And won the treble with Inter Milano season 09/10.
From I start watching football. I will rate Lucio one GOAT CB I have ever seen. He had everything. Lucio was known for his long power shot when he was playing for Bayer Leverkusen. He scored many long shot and free kick goals.
Today I will head Lucio up against the upcoming really good CB in Kim Min Jae. Playing Napoli and South Korea.
So how good is Kim Min Jae? Is Kim on Lucio world class level as a CB?
Now we take a closer look of Kim Min Jae. Compare and head up against one of CB GOAT in football history. In category Beast vs Beast.
First I will put up a visual description of Lucio:
We can see how aggressive Lucio was. The drive, the energy and the passion. Always give 100 %. Lucio had the fear factor as a CB. A CB with big authority. We easily could observed it. His presence on the pitch. A authority of a leader and warrior on the pitch.
Beside being a really solid and good defender. We can observed that he was really good and composure on the ball too.
And in the end of video. We could see his long power shot and freekicks goals. Screamers.
Now, about his comparison in Kim Min Jae. Visual description ;
Kim like Lucio. Super aggressive. Has that beast mode and mentality. Right behind the back of opponent players and good with interception.
One on one ability is on top level too. And like Lucio, Kim is decent and good on the ball too. The basic ball skill. How you handle the ball. Like passing and make run forward with the ball. Not top level about running with the ball forward. But to be a CB is more than approved.
Now, let us head them up. I will compare them on the most important ability of defender. Not finish ability comparison. As a defend. Your main job is to protect and defend your goal. If a CBs is scoring goals. It is just a big big bonus for the team. Theirs main job is make the team hard to beat and score against = defend and protect the goal = helping keeping clean sheet.
Head vs Head comparison :
+ One on one ability, tackling and interception : Lucio = Kim = I rate them equal here. Not big difference. Both of them are super aggressive. They are both quick in the first metres/acceleration and the tackling is really good too. Top level both when it come to this ability.
+ Air ability : Lucio = Kim = equal good. Kim 190 cm height and Lucio 188 cm height. Nearly equal tall. Both are super athletic and theirs aggressiveness. Made them really strong in the air.
+ Passing and basic ball skill : Lucio > Kim = Here I think Lucio is slightly better than Kim on the ball. Lucio looked a bit more composure on the ball. But it’s only first full season I have observed Kim playing. So I think he can develop here. The balance of being super aggressive then to being calm with the ball. It is a really good ability to have.
But like above. As a CB and that tall. Kim is more than approved. We can check Kim ball stats from whoscored:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/370912/Show/Kim-Min-Jae
Champion league: AvgP : 67.9. Complete pass 87.9 %
Serie A : AvgP : 80.4 Complete pass: 90.5 %.
Complete long ball : AvgP 2.5 – 3.5
So it is more than approved. CB’s use to play simple passes. So theirs passes stats will be higher than midfield attacking players. Good enough to help his team Napoli becoming Italian league champion really soon this season.
+ And when it come to fighting and winning mentality I rate them equal. Both Lucio does has a higher fear factor, authority and leadership mentality. We can easily observed Lucio personality. By his presence and look. That we are talking about a leader on the pitch and for the team. A leadership character and personality. But again, fighting mentality is equal good and top level mentality.
To sum up and answer the question how good is Kim Min Jae. Compare to the top and world class level of CB. I think personally from mine observed so far. My first full season of him. I don’t think Kim is so far from the top level of CB, in football history.
Right now Kim is maybe one of the best CB in the world. But compare to the top level it has been served earlier, in football history. When it come to category. Beast and complete as a CB. I think he might can improve his composure and coolness on the ball. But again. Kim has basic ball skill more than good enough to help his team becoming league champion in 4 biggest league in Europe and World.
And if Kim was playing for Brazil. Kim will rise his chance to win the World cup. Because South Korea was close. But I don’t think for rest of my life. South Korea will win the World Cup. So Lucio had that advantage. The level of teammates were higher with the Brazil nation team compare to South Korea.
But at club level. Kim has reach the top level on club level too. So Kim definitely close to Lucio and world class level.
Personally. I would rate Lucio as world class level. Top point out of 5. Kim Min Jae I will rate him at 4.5. Because as a full packet of a CB. Not only football ability. But include the mentality and character too. Lucio is more complete than Kim. But in the future and in few years and when Kim retire. We will see a Kim more closer and more complete as a CB.
I think Kim more than a very good level. Not world class level yet. But somewhere between very good and world class level.
Right now. Definitely world class fighting mentality with both. The passion, drive, aggressiveness were just top level, both.
He became one time world champion with Brazil in 2002. And won the treble with Inter Milano season 09/10.
From I start watching football. I will rate Lucio one GOAT CB I have ever seen. He had everything. Lucio was known for his long power shot when he was playing for Bayer Leverkusen. He scored many long shot and free kick goals.
Today I will head Lucio up against the upcoming really good CB in Kim Min Jae. Playing Napoli and South Korea.
So how good is Kim Min Jae? Is Kim on Lucio world class level as a CB?
Now we take a closer look of Kim Min Jae. Compare and head up against one of CB GOAT in football history. In category Beast vs Beast.
First I will put up a visual description of Lucio:
We can see how aggressive Lucio was. The drive, the energy and the passion. Always give 100 %. Lucio had the fear factor as a CB. A CB with big authority. We easily could observed it. His presence on the pitch. A authority of a leader and warrior on the pitch.
Beside being a really solid and good defender. We can observed that he was really good and composure on the ball too.
And in the end of video. We could see his long power shot and freekicks goals. Screamers.
Now, about his comparison in Kim Min Jae. Visual description ;
Kim like Lucio. Super aggressive. Has that beast mode and mentality. Right behind the back of opponent players and good with interception.
One on one ability is on top level too. And like Lucio, Kim is decent and good on the ball too. The basic ball skill. How you handle the ball. Like passing and make run forward with the ball. Not top level about running with the ball forward. But to be a CB is more than approved.
Now, let us head them up. I will compare them on the most important ability of defender. Not finish ability comparison. As a defend. Your main job is to protect and defend your goal. If a CBs is scoring goals. It is just a big big bonus for the team. Theirs main job is make the team hard to beat and score against = defend and protect the goal = helping keeping clean sheet.
Head vs Head comparison :
+ One on one ability, tackling and interception : Lucio = Kim = I rate them equal here. Not big difference. Both of them are super aggressive. They are both quick in the first metres/acceleration and the tackling is really good too. Top level both when it come to this ability.
+ Air ability : Lucio = Kim = equal good. Kim 190 cm height and Lucio 188 cm height. Nearly equal tall. Both are super athletic and theirs aggressiveness. Made them really strong in the air.
+ Passing and basic ball skill : Lucio > Kim = Here I think Lucio is slightly better than Kim on the ball. Lucio looked a bit more composure on the ball. But it’s only first full season I have observed Kim playing. So I think he can develop here. The balance of being super aggressive then to being calm with the ball. It is a really good ability to have.
But like above. As a CB and that tall. Kim is more than approved. We can check Kim ball stats from whoscored:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/370912/Show/Kim-Min-Jae
Champion league: AvgP : 67.9. Complete pass 87.9 %
Serie A : AvgP : 80.4 Complete pass: 90.5 %.
Complete long ball : AvgP 2.5 – 3.5
So it is more than approved. CB’s use to play simple passes. So theirs passes stats will be higher than midfield attacking players. Good enough to help his team Napoli becoming Italian league champion really soon this season.
+ And when it come to fighting and winning mentality I rate them equal. Both Lucio does has a higher fear factor, authority and leadership mentality. We can easily observed Lucio personality. By his presence and look. That we are talking about a leader on the pitch and for the team. A leadership character and personality. But again, fighting mentality is equal good and top level mentality.
To sum up and answer the question how good is Kim Min Jae. Compare to the top and world class level of CB. I think personally from mine observed so far. My first full season of him. I don’t think Kim is so far from the top level of CB, in football history.
Right now Kim is maybe one of the best CB in the world. But compare to the top level it has been served earlier, in football history. When it come to category. Beast and complete as a CB. I think he might can improve his composure and coolness on the ball. But again. Kim has basic ball skill more than good enough to help his team becoming league champion in 4 biggest league in Europe and World.
And if Kim was playing for Brazil. Kim will rise his chance to win the World cup. Because South Korea was close. But I don’t think for rest of my life. South Korea will win the World Cup. So Lucio had that advantage. The level of teammates were higher with the Brazil nation team compare to South Korea.
But at club level. Kim has reach the top level on club level too. So Kim definitely close to Lucio and world class level.
Personally. I would rate Lucio as world class level. Top point out of 5. Kim Min Jae I will rate him at 4.5. Because as a full packet of a CB. Not only football ability. But include the mentality and character too. Lucio is more complete than Kim. But in the future and in few years and when Kim retire. We will see a Kim more closer and more complete as a CB.
I think Kim more than a very good level. Not world class level yet. But somewhere between very good and world class level.
Right now. Definitely world class fighting mentality with both. The passion, drive, aggressiveness were just top level, both.
Today’s head to head is : Rabiot vs Kenneth Taylor = 2 really similar type of left foot central midfield player. And the question I now try to find the answer is.
Is Kenneth Taylor good enough for Manchester United? I will split it on 2 questions. Is he good enough for regular starting line up and if he is good enough for Manchester United squad?
And to find the answers. We will take a closer look of the players he is head up against.
As we know. According to the papers and the media. Adrien Rabiot was wanted by Manchester United last summer and was in negotiation with United. But couldn’t agree about the wage. So he ended up staying with Juventus.
And if you was wanted by Ten Hag and United. It means you are good enough for Manchester United. But I am not sure if Rabiot was seen as a regular starter and XI for United. Or to strength United squad depth.
My personally analysis and rating of Rabiot : He is more of a offensive player than a defensive player. So I will only talk about his best abilities. The ability on the ball and the creative. And I found and believe last summer he was on a very good and high basic football skill level.
I believe Rabiot is champion league level. For one of team from the top 5 league in Europe. And later in the world cup in Qatar. He was playing regular for a runner up team with France who lost to the final for Argentina. On penalty. So with that result for France and in general. Rabiot definitely had the football level that demand to battle for a regular starting spot at Manchester United.
And here is the link of papers and media about Rabiot linking to United:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/rabiot-transfer-man-utd-juventus-25535092
https://www.skysports.com/football/...ester-united-want-to-sign-juventus-midfielder
As I said above. I found and rate Rabiot as champion league level for a big club in that competition. Top 5 league in Europe.
A further description of him in words are. Rabiot is central midfield ball carry. A box to box cm player. He has goals in his game. Average 5-10 goals each season. And like I said above. He better in the offensive than in the defensive. In other words. Rabiot was and is better with the ball than without . Reasons why I rate him more as a offensive and creative cm player. Rather than a defensive cm player.
Now I will put a link to his video clip. A visual description. More precise than only with words. He is definitely a cm ball carry. A box to box cm player:
Now we take a closer look of Rabiot comparison. Kenneth Taylor from Ajax. Like I said above. Those 2 a similar type of player. The big different is the size and height.
Rabiot 1,88 m tall vs Taylor 1,82 m tall
And here is the visual description of Kenneth Taylor:
Now let us head to head them up: Rabiot vs Kenneth Taylor = 2 creative left foot cm player
+ Dribling skill : Rabiot = K Taylor = equal good or not big different. Due to footyStats.
Dribble success rate : Rabiot 57,14 % vs Taylor 53,19 %
+ Passing and combination skill : Rabiot < K Taylor = According to footystats and mine observing. K Taylor had higher successful passes. And nearly double as much passes than Rabiot. And from what I have been observing. Kenneth Taylor play often more deeper than Rabiot. It will naturally lead to that Taylor will be more involving in the build up more. The way Taylor is playing will make him touch the ball more than Rabiot. And in deeper position it will easier to have more successful passes. But I think they are close to equal good or Taylor is slightly better than Rabiot with the passing skill.
Pass completion rate : Rabiot 83,21 % vs Taylor 88, 93.
But Rabiot had a bit higher key passes rate : 1,02 per 90 mins vs Taylor 0.82 per 90 minutes
+ Finish skill: Rabiot = Taylor = I rate them equal good here.
Rabiot : 2571 mins in Serie A = 8 goals vs Taylor : 2437 mins in Eredivisie = 8 goals
+ Defending ability : Rabiot = Taylor = Not big different here. Rabiot has more strength, but Kenneth Taylor is more easier on the toes and more lightweight.
And here is the link to the footyStats site. For more details of those 2 players :
Rabiot:
Adrien Rabiot Stats - Goals, xG, Assists & xA | FootyStats
K Taylor :
Kenneth Taylor Stats - Goals, xG, Assists & xA | FootyStats
So to sum up and come to conclusion and answer the question is. On basic football skill. I think and believe Kenneth Taylor is as good as Rabiot. Not big difference in the level. The clearly difference is Rabiot has advantage with the physical strength. But the minus with being bigger and taller. Compare to Taylor who is more lightweight and easier on the toes. It will lead to that Taylor is able to run more and has higher workrate. And I think Taylor is quicker and more explosive than Rabiot.
With summary I will conclude that Kenneth Taylor is good enough for Manchester United’s squad. No doubt about it. In the offensive and on the ball. I think and rate Taylor ball skills above Fred and McTom. He is definitely good enough for Manchester United’s squad.
But if he is good enough for a regular starting line up for Manchester United. I think it depend on the formation Ten Hag will use. I think for both Rabiot and Taylor best position on the pitch is as LCM player. Like this:
Eriksen – Casemiro – Taylor/Rabiot
If Ten Hag is using 433 regular with RCM and LCM. I think both Taylor and Rabiot will play really often as LCM. They are natural LCM = left foot cm ball carry and box to box player.
But if Ten Hag will still use 4231. With only 2 cm players spot. Then Taylor will battle against Eriksen. Because I think Casemiro will be the regular starter. It will be like this:
Casemiro – Eriksen/Taylor/Rabiot. As a full packet football player. Taylor is more athlete and run a lot more than Eriksen. Because Taylor is a lot younger with young legs. So assist and key passes of Eriksen. I think Taylor is not there yet.
So in short sentence: Taylor is might not good enough for regular United in 4231 formation. But in a 433 formation. He will rise his chance.
And Taylor is definitely good enough for Manchester United squad. I think both of Rabiot and Taylor will strength the United squad. Special with the creative and with the ball/in possession. And helping to adding more goals from midfield players.
Hope everyone enjoy the reading and wish mine readers a good weekend
Is Kenneth Taylor good enough for Manchester United? I will split it on 2 questions. Is he good enough for regular starting line up and if he is good enough for Manchester United squad?
And to find the answers. We will take a closer look of the players he is head up against.
As we know. According to the papers and the media. Adrien Rabiot was wanted by Manchester United last summer and was in negotiation with United. But couldn’t agree about the wage. So he ended up staying with Juventus.
And if you was wanted by Ten Hag and United. It means you are good enough for Manchester United. But I am not sure if Rabiot was seen as a regular starter and XI for United. Or to strength United squad depth.
My personally analysis and rating of Rabiot : He is more of a offensive player than a defensive player. So I will only talk about his best abilities. The ability on the ball and the creative. And I found and believe last summer he was on a very good and high basic football skill level.
I believe Rabiot is champion league level. For one of team from the top 5 league in Europe. And later in the world cup in Qatar. He was playing regular for a runner up team with France who lost to the final for Argentina. On penalty. So with that result for France and in general. Rabiot definitely had the football level that demand to battle for a regular starting spot at Manchester United.
And here is the link of papers and media about Rabiot linking to United:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ews/rabiot-transfer-man-utd-juventus-25535092
https://www.skysports.com/football/...ester-united-want-to-sign-juventus-midfielder
As I said above. I found and rate Rabiot as champion league level for a big club in that competition. Top 5 league in Europe.
A further description of him in words are. Rabiot is central midfield ball carry. A box to box cm player. He has goals in his game. Average 5-10 goals each season. And like I said above. He better in the offensive than in the defensive. In other words. Rabiot was and is better with the ball than without . Reasons why I rate him more as a offensive and creative cm player. Rather than a defensive cm player.
Now I will put a link to his video clip. A visual description. More precise than only with words. He is definitely a cm ball carry. A box to box cm player:
Now we take a closer look of Rabiot comparison. Kenneth Taylor from Ajax. Like I said above. Those 2 a similar type of player. The big different is the size and height.
Rabiot 1,88 m tall vs Taylor 1,82 m tall
And here is the visual description of Kenneth Taylor:
Now let us head to head them up: Rabiot vs Kenneth Taylor = 2 creative left foot cm player
+ Dribling skill : Rabiot = K Taylor = equal good or not big different. Due to footyStats.
Dribble success rate : Rabiot 57,14 % vs Taylor 53,19 %
+ Passing and combination skill : Rabiot < K Taylor = According to footystats and mine observing. K Taylor had higher successful passes. And nearly double as much passes than Rabiot. And from what I have been observing. Kenneth Taylor play often more deeper than Rabiot. It will naturally lead to that Taylor will be more involving in the build up more. The way Taylor is playing will make him touch the ball more than Rabiot. And in deeper position it will easier to have more successful passes. But I think they are close to equal good or Taylor is slightly better than Rabiot with the passing skill.
Pass completion rate : Rabiot 83,21 % vs Taylor 88, 93.
But Rabiot had a bit higher key passes rate : 1,02 per 90 mins vs Taylor 0.82 per 90 minutes
+ Finish skill: Rabiot = Taylor = I rate them equal good here.
Rabiot : 2571 mins in Serie A = 8 goals vs Taylor : 2437 mins in Eredivisie = 8 goals
+ Defending ability : Rabiot = Taylor = Not big different here. Rabiot has more strength, but Kenneth Taylor is more easier on the toes and more lightweight.
And here is the link to the footyStats site. For more details of those 2 players :
Rabiot:
Adrien Rabiot Stats - Goals, xG, Assists & xA | FootyStats
K Taylor :
Kenneth Taylor Stats - Goals, xG, Assists & xA | FootyStats
So to sum up and come to conclusion and answer the question is. On basic football skill. I think and believe Kenneth Taylor is as good as Rabiot. Not big difference in the level. The clearly difference is Rabiot has advantage with the physical strength. But the minus with being bigger and taller. Compare to Taylor who is more lightweight and easier on the toes. It will lead to that Taylor is able to run more and has higher workrate. And I think Taylor is quicker and more explosive than Rabiot.
With summary I will conclude that Kenneth Taylor is good enough for Manchester United’s squad. No doubt about it. In the offensive and on the ball. I think and rate Taylor ball skills above Fred and McTom. He is definitely good enough for Manchester United’s squad.
But if he is good enough for a regular starting line up for Manchester United. I think it depend on the formation Ten Hag will use. I think for both Rabiot and Taylor best position on the pitch is as LCM player. Like this:
Eriksen – Casemiro – Taylor/Rabiot
If Ten Hag is using 433 regular with RCM and LCM. I think both Taylor and Rabiot will play really often as LCM. They are natural LCM = left foot cm ball carry and box to box player.
But if Ten Hag will still use 4231. With only 2 cm players spot. Then Taylor will battle against Eriksen. Because I think Casemiro will be the regular starter. It will be like this:
Casemiro – Eriksen/Taylor/Rabiot. As a full packet football player. Taylor is more athlete and run a lot more than Eriksen. Because Taylor is a lot younger with young legs. So assist and key passes of Eriksen. I think Taylor is not there yet.
So in short sentence: Taylor is might not good enough for regular United in 4231 formation. But in a 433 formation. He will rise his chance.
And Taylor is definitely good enough for Manchester United squad. I think both of Rabiot and Taylor will strength the United squad. Special with the creative and with the ball/in possession. And helping to adding more goals from midfield players.
Hope everyone enjoy the reading and wish mine readers a good weekend
Those 2 central midfield players are the balance and holding players. That dictate and control the ball and build up of the team.
2 proactive cm players that you get to have to play 433 proactive football.
Right foot players of this kind. You have Spain Rodri, Busquets and Italian Pirlo.
The deep lying cm/nr.6 playmaker. But today. We are talking about left foot cm playmaker.
One of the best left foot CM player out there vs against a upcoming and really promising cm player in Adam Wharton. Not 100 % indentical, but the same mould and category of player.
First a short introduction of one of the greatest football player from Switzerland ever. And one of the key player and factor behind Bayer Leverkusen invisble and really succesful season. Unbeaten in Bundesliga.
Has been a well known football player for more than a decade.
Career from FC Basel, Borussia Monchengladback, Arsenal and first and last season with Bayer Leverkusen under the regime of Alonso.
A tough player that who are not shy off confrontation on the football pitch. A true leader and commander of the team.
He has a really precise left foot. Which will be document with the stats:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/89401/Show/Granit-Xhaka
In 32 games for BL, 2828 minutes playing. Average passes each game he had was 98.8. Nearly 100 passs. It is crazy number. Imagine how much a CF like Haaland is touching the ball during the game.
And his succesful passes rate was 92.1 %. High number for a precise left foot playmaker, on top level of football world right now.
Avg Key passes = 1.2. Top creative player use to be on this level. And Avg 4 long ball per game.
Some defensive stats: 09 avg tackles. 0.6 interception.
Xhaka was known to be with tackling and the stats is from last season, at the age of 30/31. So his acceleration and quickness in the first meters wasn't on top level. Because to be a really good tackler and good with interception. You get to be really quick in the first meters. Top explosiveness is key.
Xhaka best quality and ability is controlling, dictating and spreading the passes around. A balance and controlling cm playmaker.
And here is a video clip of his playing style and a visual description:
+ Now, let us talk about Xhaka younger and upcoming cm comparison. In Adam Wharton from England. Borned in 2004 and 20 years of age.
Like Xhaka. Wharton can run with the ball. But both of Wharton and Xhaka are more of a "passer " than a "runner".
Wharton was in the Euro 24 England squad, but he was maybe battle with Declan Rice for the nr.6 cm spot. So Soutghate trust a player that has been in team for longer than a new comer.
We go straight to Wharton football stats. His description will explain and show by visual later.
Like Xhaka's passes they are so much feeling, precise and just wonderful and delicious passes. Their's touch of the ball, just top notch. And they deliver it so effortlessly. It looks so easily. But those are top boys and quality you know. Top level. A lot of hard work and practise behind it.
+ Head to Head comparison :
Offensive abilities :
+ Xhaka : Avg P : 98.8, SuccP 92.1 vs Wharton : Avg P 67 with Blackburn & only 35 with C Palace, SuccP 81-83
+ Key passes : Xhaka 1.2. 3 goals in 32 matches VS Wharton key p : 1.3 with Palace. No goal but 3 assist in 15 matches
Conclusion is : In the offensive Xhaka is better, with more experience and better team mates. It will help a lot. Compare to Palace who is a more counter and direct team. When Bayer Leverkusen is more dominate and proactive and a lesser counter attack team. Then natural with a a controlling and playmaker like Xhaka. Most of the ball will build from him and go trough him.
But in the future. When Wharton join a better and more dominate and proactive team. He will touch the ball more and build up the attack more. Instead sitting back and counter attack like Palace.
But again. Both of the them are so precise and good with the ball. A top and precise left foot.
Defensive abilities:
Tackling and Interception: Xhaka 0.9 avg tackling, 0.6 avg inter VS Wharton 2.5 with Bl and 3 avg with Palace, 1.3 avg Inter
So like above. Because of playing style and set up of the team. If a team are sitting back and counter attack set up. You will probably and naturally have higher tackling like Wharton with Palace. Avg 3 tackles each games. A key key factor behind Palace succesful and counter attack football. Wharton win the ball and play it quick to attacking players in Olise, Eze or Mateta.
So beside being really precise, good and effience with the ball. Wharton is really good to break up opponent attack too.
So sum up.
Attacking and creative abilities : Xhaka > Wharton
Defensive abilities : Xhaka < Wharton
So with the stats above. I don't remember how Xhaka was at Wharton age. But from last season stats. Wharton i would state is more complete and allround than Xhaka.
But the playmaker ability, shooting and finishing. Xhaka is clearly above. And it is here where Wharton can develop and become better. Become sharper and better with finishing.
We can see the how complete Rodri from Spain is. His average goals per season is around 5 goals. So beside controlling the midfield and the ball. You can always improve your finishing. Sharper and sharper. You never know. You always be ready for a shot outside of the box or make a run into the box.
But as a left foot cm playmaker. Those 2 left foot cm player belong to the top in football world right now.
But if we compare to Rodri from Spain. Those 2 are a level under Rodri. As a deep lying cm playmaker/nr.6
In the end. I will show how they will line up in a 433 total Dutch, Barca, Spain and City total football:
Robben RW - Xavi/De Bruyne RCM/8 - Xhaka/Wharton CDM/6 - Iniesta LCM/8 - Nico Williams LW
There you have. Insteaf of a right foot CDM controlling and playmaking nr.6 in Rodri, Pirlo and Busquets.
Left foot version we have Xhaka and Wharton
So if any team want a future and really promising proactive, creative and controlling player. A deep lying playmaker nr.6. And special a precise, wonderful and effience left foot.
My best recommendation is = Adam Wharton from Palace and England. Borned 2004
2 proactive cm players that you get to have to play 433 proactive football.
Right foot players of this kind. You have Spain Rodri, Busquets and Italian Pirlo.
The deep lying cm/nr.6 playmaker. But today. We are talking about left foot cm playmaker.
One of the best left foot CM player out there vs against a upcoming and really promising cm player in Adam Wharton. Not 100 % indentical, but the same mould and category of player.
First a short introduction of one of the greatest football player from Switzerland ever. And one of the key player and factor behind Bayer Leverkusen invisble and really succesful season. Unbeaten in Bundesliga.
Has been a well known football player for more than a decade.
Career from FC Basel, Borussia Monchengladback, Arsenal and first and last season with Bayer Leverkusen under the regime of Alonso.
A tough player that who are not shy off confrontation on the football pitch. A true leader and commander of the team.
He has a really precise left foot. Which will be document with the stats:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/89401/Show/Granit-Xhaka
In 32 games for BL, 2828 minutes playing. Average passes each game he had was 98.8. Nearly 100 passs. It is crazy number. Imagine how much a CF like Haaland is touching the ball during the game.
And his succesful passes rate was 92.1 %. High number for a precise left foot playmaker, on top level of football world right now.
Avg Key passes = 1.2. Top creative player use to be on this level. And Avg 4 long ball per game.
Some defensive stats: 09 avg tackles. 0.6 interception.
Xhaka was known to be with tackling and the stats is from last season, at the age of 30/31. So his acceleration and quickness in the first meters wasn't on top level. Because to be a really good tackler and good with interception. You get to be really quick in the first meters. Top explosiveness is key.
Xhaka best quality and ability is controlling, dictating and spreading the passes around. A balance and controlling cm playmaker.
And here is a video clip of his playing style and a visual description:
+ Now, let us talk about Xhaka younger and upcoming cm comparison. In Adam Wharton from England. Borned in 2004 and 20 years of age.
Like Xhaka. Wharton can run with the ball. But both of Wharton and Xhaka are more of a "passer " than a "runner".
Wharton was in the Euro 24 England squad, but he was maybe battle with Declan Rice for the nr.6 cm spot. So Soutghate trust a player that has been in team for longer than a new comer.
We go straight to Wharton football stats. His description will explain and show by visual later.
Like Xhaka's passes they are so much feeling, precise and just wonderful and delicious passes. Their's touch of the ball, just top notch. And they deliver it so effortlessly. It looks so easily. But those are top boys and quality you know. Top level. A lot of hard work and practise behind it.
+ Head to Head comparison :
Offensive abilities :
+ Xhaka : Avg P : 98.8, SuccP 92.1 vs Wharton : Avg P 67 with Blackburn & only 35 with C Palace, SuccP 81-83
+ Key passes : Xhaka 1.2. 3 goals in 32 matches VS Wharton key p : 1.3 with Palace. No goal but 3 assist in 15 matches
Conclusion is : In the offensive Xhaka is better, with more experience and better team mates. It will help a lot. Compare to Palace who is a more counter and direct team. When Bayer Leverkusen is more dominate and proactive and a lesser counter attack team. Then natural with a a controlling and playmaker like Xhaka. Most of the ball will build from him and go trough him.
But in the future. When Wharton join a better and more dominate and proactive team. He will touch the ball more and build up the attack more. Instead sitting back and counter attack like Palace.
But again. Both of the them are so precise and good with the ball. A top and precise left foot.
Defensive abilities:
Tackling and Interception: Xhaka 0.9 avg tackling, 0.6 avg inter VS Wharton 2.5 with Bl and 3 avg with Palace, 1.3 avg Inter
So like above. Because of playing style and set up of the team. If a team are sitting back and counter attack set up. You will probably and naturally have higher tackling like Wharton with Palace. Avg 3 tackles each games. A key key factor behind Palace succesful and counter attack football. Wharton win the ball and play it quick to attacking players in Olise, Eze or Mateta.
So beside being really precise, good and effience with the ball. Wharton is really good to break up opponent attack too.
So sum up.
Attacking and creative abilities : Xhaka > Wharton
Defensive abilities : Xhaka < Wharton
So with the stats above. I don't remember how Xhaka was at Wharton age. But from last season stats. Wharton i would state is more complete and allround than Xhaka.
But the playmaker ability, shooting and finishing. Xhaka is clearly above. And it is here where Wharton can develop and become better. Become sharper and better with finishing.
We can see the how complete Rodri from Spain is. His average goals per season is around 5 goals. So beside controlling the midfield and the ball. You can always improve your finishing. Sharper and sharper. You never know. You always be ready for a shot outside of the box or make a run into the box.
But as a left foot cm playmaker. Those 2 left foot cm player belong to the top in football world right now.
But if we compare to Rodri from Spain. Those 2 are a level under Rodri. As a deep lying cm playmaker/nr.6
In the end. I will show how they will line up in a 433 total Dutch, Barca, Spain and City total football:
Robben RW - Xavi/De Bruyne RCM/8 - Xhaka/Wharton CDM/6 - Iniesta LCM/8 - Nico Williams LW
There you have. Insteaf of a right foot CDM controlling and playmaking nr.6 in Rodri, Pirlo and Busquets.
Left foot version we have Xhaka and Wharton
So if any team want a future and really promising proactive, creative and controlling player. A deep lying playmaker nr.6. And special a precise, wonderful and effience left foot.
My best recommendation is = Adam Wharton from Palace and England. Borned 2004