Thrown Away

gfactor86

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Joined
Nov 15, 2001
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1,397
This season if we don't manage to win the premiership it will be down to us throwing it away, as opposed to Arse or Scouse getting that much better.

I think Veron has cost us, Now i'm not a Veron - knocker but can't help thinking that he severely unbalanced the side, and slows down our attacks, and consequently stopped our aatcking flow.


staggering statistic

United have won 58% of games Veron has played in.

United have won 92% of games that Veron has not played in.


Now I for one minute don't doubt Verons abilty, and think he is a fantastic talent, but I just don't think United or English football suit him.
The Italian game suits his style of play.

Maybe its true to say that Veron needs time to settle in and that he could have been given a better role to play in this season and at times has played on the flanks which he isn't suited to, but i'm not sure this will be that effective. with a 30mil price tag hanging over him, i for one expected more.

One lesson we will learn from this season is not to tamper with the midfield quartet of..

Giggs----Keano----Scholes----Beckham
 
I agree with you about us throwing it away and no one else winning it but i wouldnt blamb it all on Veron.

Beckham was crap for 2 thirds of the season.
Scholes was crap until xmas.
Barthez had an unstable period which didnt help.
Silvester didnt get his act together until xmas.
Blanc took a while to settle in.
Brown was injured and playing below par.
Ronny was knackered.
Weve only had 2 functioning strikers all season.
Weve had no decent cover for Giggs.
New tactics have been hard to take on board.
 
I think it would be unfair to say we've thrown away the season to any team that wins the championship (yes, even Liverpool).
I believe it will be Arsenal that will win the championship, and in that case they deserve it, no matter how many mistakes United have done.

Anyhow, this season, no matter the outcome of it, has been a great season I think, with our "comeback" after losing to West Ham at home, games like the 5-3 over Spurs, or 3-2 over AV in the FA cup
Geting our act together when it matters in the CL (we'll see about that <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> )
and realising how United is so much more than just the names we have on the team sheet, after performances like the games vs depor without Keano, Becks, Scholes...

Oh, and "geting" fergie for another 3 (is it 3 ? can't rememebr) years at the helm.
 
The difference this year was that we couldn't win our normal home games. Bolton, West Ham, Boro should've been 9 points, which would have us 5 points clear of everyone at this point.
 
We are definately the best team in the league at the moment and obviously the best team in the country.
I think what has cost us (if indeed it does) is the fact we has at least four players out of form for 3 months.
Blanc settling in
Beckham out of touch
Scholes not at the races
Sylvestre lacked concentration
Plus we had stopped defending and attackung as a unit
Ferguson has putr it right although it may be to late hopefully we will win the champions league
Come on you fighters
 
Arsenal have 75 points in 34 games this season. That makes 2,21 points per game. Manutd have only once got a better points average than that, in 99/00. So it's not a case of you throwing it away, but a case of Arsenal being the best.

As for dropped points at home against weaker opposition, that can be said about every team. Arsenal have lost points at home to Bolton, Charlton, Blackburn and Southampton for instance.
 
Originally posted by stoned.rose:
<strong>We blew it at home to Middlesbore & West Ham.

No individual is to blame.</strong><hr></blockquote>

exactly... If we don't regain our title it'll be down to the fact we lost too many games at home, against the lesser sides.


Strangely enough, most of our defeats at home have come after away CL matches....
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Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>Arsenal have 75 points in 34 games this season. That makes 2,21 points per game. Manutd have only once got a better points average than that, in 99/00. So it's not a case of you throwing it away, but a case of Arsenal being the best.
As for dropped points at home against weaker opposition, that can be said about every team. Arsenal have lost points at home to Bolton, Charlton, Blackburn and Southampton for instance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Arsenal have been amazingly consistent this season and have somehow managed to avoid a real bad run like what we had in November.
But youse have never hit the heights like we have either.
It says it all that were having our worst season for ages but are still right in the thick of it. Had we played with our traditional tactics in November we'd probably be 5 points or so to the good.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Arsenal have been amazingly consistent this season and have somehow managed to avoid a real bad run like what we had in November.
But youse have never hit the heights like we have either. </strong><hr></blockquote>

We're in the middle of a 9-game winning streak, what do you call that?
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Between red cards and injuries, Arsenal has (have) faced as much adversity as Manchester United this year, although the battle for the Premier League crown leaves no doubt that, even playing reserves quite often, there are but three significant squads in England today.

Don't flatter yourselves with the way you might have "given away" the title by your failure to defeat the minnows. Consider three matches:

November 4:
Liverpool 3--Manchester United 1

November 25
Arsenal 3--Manchester United 1

January 22
Manchester United 0--Liverpool 1

Any points gained in any of those games would cast the league race in an entirely new light.
If you don't win the title, it's because this year you couldn't beat the opposition.
 
Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>

We're in the middle of a 9-game winning streak, what do you call that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which was only interrupted by having been booted out of the CL by Deportivo and Juventus Reserves.
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So have I been asleep for a couple of weeks and Arsenal won the league or something
I just hope we don't beat them at home and hand it to the scousers (worst nightmare)
 
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Which was only interrupted by having been booted out of the CL by Deportivo and Juventus Reserves.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's a nine game winning streak in the league, we were talking about the league. Arsenal weren't booted out by Juventus, if we'd beaten them we'd still have gone out.

I think it's funny that you're talking about, you throwing the title away if you don't win. The mini-league between Arsenal, Liverpool and Manutd looks like this:

Team, pl. W D L P. GD
Arsenal 3 2 1 0 7 6-3
Liverpo 4 2 1 1 7 6-4
Manutd 3 0 0 3 0 2-7
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"It's a nine game winning streak in the league, we were talking about the league. Arsenal weren't booted out by Juventus, if we'd beaten them we'd still have gone out.

I think it's funny that you're talking about, you throwing the title away if you don't win."


That's right arse! if you're lucky , yes lucky enough to win it , it'll be on loan only. it won't be b/c of anything less then MU's performance. spout stats all you like , we shall see at season's end.
 
Arsenal were crap against Boro
Crap against Ipswich
And yeah I know results mean more, but they could easily slip up against West Ham if playing like that and we would definately beat them
So I guess it's game on
And the scousers will definately bottle it
 
We're in the middle of a 9-game winning streak, what do you call that?<hr></blockquote>

The beginning of a four game losing streak bottlers?
West Ham , United, Everton and Bolton <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Originally posted by reddermo:
<strong>

The beginning of a four game losing streak bottlers?
West Ham , United, Everton and Bolton <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Make sure your words are sweet, in case you end up having to eat them. :)
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Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>Arsenal have 75 points in 34 games this season. That makes 2,21 points per game. Manutd have only once got a better points average than that, in 99/00. So it's not a case of you throwing it away, but a case of Arsenal being the best.

As for dropped points at home against weaker opposition, that can be said about every team. Arsenal have lost points at home to Bolton, Charlton, Blackburn and Southampton for instance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hold on... United have always managed to win those aforementioned games where as the other "pretenders" always slipped up. Yes Arsenal have been very consistent and played great this season, but United handed the title by New Years. Nothing against Arsenal if they win the title, but United are still the best team in England. Hmmm...I wonder who'll be odds on favorite to win the 2003 EPL title?
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Weve only had 2 functioning strikers all season.
</strong><hr></blockquote>


You don't mention the fact that at times we only used one.......that must have cost us.
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Originally posted by FresnoBob:
<strong>Don't flatter yourselves with the way you might have "given away" the title by your failure to defeat the minnows. Consider three matches:

November 4:
Liverpool 3--Manchester United 1

November 25
Arsenal 3--Manchester United 1

January 22
Manchester United 0--Liverpool 1

Any points gained in any of those games would cast the league race in an entirely new light.
If you don't win the title, it's because this year you couldn't beat the opposition.</strong><hr></blockquote>


What's your point?

Surely it would be arrogance to use those matches as examples, as they were ones that we could conceivably lose anyway. It's obvious that dropping points at home against Boro, West Ham, and Bolton, has been the problem.

No shame in losing two away matches at Highbury and Anfield - but personally, I thought we employed the wrong tactics against Liverpool at OT.
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Originally posted by gfactor86:
<strong>This season if we don't manage to win the premiership it will be down to us throwing it away, as opposed to Arse or Scouse getting that much better.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Us and the Arse have got more points than usual...

Is that improving?
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

Us and the Arse have got more points than usual...

Is that improving?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Obviously.

But we have also improved. We changed our team, and our system, which took time to settle down and cost us. Since then, no-one can say we haven't played better football than we played last year.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Obviously.

But we have also improved. We changed our team, and our system, which took time to settle down and cost us. Since then, no-one can say we haven't played better football than we played last year.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you disagree with the original post in the thread then?
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>

So you disagree with the original post in the thread then?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not really.

I think in the early games of the season, Veron did unbalance us. I still think he hasn't totally settled into the PL game, but has got better. Whether he maintains that or not remains to be seen.

And we had some crap results early season, but still played some good stuff. We lost against Newcastle, but it was a great game.

Another big mistake we made was not playing the same back four for more than one game at a time. That might have been the biggest mistake tbh.
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I think many people have forgotten why SAF bought Veron and then changed the teams formation and tactics.

It was to win the CL.

We are still on course to do that, and still in with a chance of the premiership.

All things considered this has been a remarkably good year so far.

Both Arsenal and Liverpool have played extremely well.

Would we be top if we had concentrated on the PL, I believe we would, no matter how well Arsenal and Liverpool played.

The season is not over, we can win the CL and take our place with the greatest teams of the modern era. And that friends is why we are where we are today.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Not really.

I think in the early games of the season, Veron did unbalance us. I still think he hasn't totally settled into the PL game, but has got better. Whether he maintains that or not remains to be seen.

And we had some crap results early season, but still played some good stuff. We lost against Newcastle, but it was a great game.

Another big mistake we made was not playing the same back four for more than one game at a time. That might have been the biggest mistake tbh.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree with the back 4 point..

But I disagree with the opinion that you've "thrown away" the title and that we/the Arse haven't improved..

We have all lost games which we would have expected to win...this happens every season
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Originally posted by 2Bullish:
<strong>I think many people have forgotten why SAF bought Veron and then changed the teams formation and tactics.

It was to win the CL.

We are still on course to do that, and still in with a chance of the premiership.

All things considered this has been a remarkably good year so far.

Both Arsenal and Liverpool have played extremely well.

Would we be top if we had concentrated on the PL, I believe we would, no matter how well Arsenal and Liverpool played.

The season is not over, we can win the CL and take our place with the greatest teams of the modern era. And that friends is why we are where we are today.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you're right, in a way Alex was either over-confident about winning the league or wasn't too bothered since we'd already won that for the previous three years and what he really wanted was to prove that the Treble season was not a one-off. He used the first few months to experiment and tinker with the new formation, different partnerships at the back, different roles for Scholes and Veron - and this was as you say, to make a real change from the team that went out at the QF's for the last two years. It worked, we're in the semi's. He didn't misjudge the premiership by much, if it wasn't for the boro and derby results we'd be in a good position for a Double.
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Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>


I agree with the back 4 point..

But I disagree with the opinion that you've "thrown away" the title and that we/the Arse haven't improved..

We have all lost games which we would have expected to win...this happens every season</strong><hr></blockquote>

I didn't agree with the opinion that Liverpool and Arsenal haven't improved either.

But if we could maintain our best form, I would say we are better at our best than Liverpool and Arsenal are at theirs. But then I support United, so I would say that. I admit to bias.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Not really.

I think in the early games of the season, Veron did unbalance us. I still think he hasn't totally settled into the PL game, but has got better. Whether he maintains that or not remains to be seen.

And we had some crap results early season, but still played some good stuff. We lost against Newcastle, but it was a great game.

Another big mistake we made was not playing the same back four for more than one game at a time. That might have been the biggest mistake tbh.</strong><hr></blockquote>


So you've improved and got worse?

;)
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Originally posted by sutty:
<strong>


So you've improved and got worse?

;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

No. We've improved since we got worse. Pay attention luv, it's not rocket science. ;)

Last season we won the league at a canter without actually playing scintillating stuff.

This season we changed it around, which needed a settling in period. Hence some bad home results caused by individual errors, and the fact that we were taking time to settle as a team.

However, our performances this year have generally been better than last year.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

No. We've improved since we got worse. Pay attention luv, it's not rocket science. ;)

Last season we won the league at a canter without actually playing scintillating stuff.

This season we changed it around, which needed a settling in period. Hence some bad home results caused by individual errors, and the fact that we were taking time to settle as a team.

However, our performances this year have generally been better than last year.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I know what yer saying really.

Just thought you sounded like that bloke of the fast show... ;)

The thing is every team has ifs and buts... we've dropped 10 points to Bolton and Southampton ffs! We'll all be kicking ourselves about summat. You (not actually you, but footy fans in general) can't debase the performance of rival clubs this year with ifs and buts. Whoever wins it this year will be worthy winners and no churning over bobos mistakes or our occasional negativity at home is going to change that
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Originally posted by sutty:
<strong>


The thing is every team has ifs and buts... we've dropped 10 points to Bolton and Southampton ffs! We'll all be kicking ourselves about summat. You (not actually you, but footy fans in general) can't debase the performance of rival clubs this year with ifs and buts. Whoever wins it this year will be worthy winners and no churning over bobos mistakes or our occasional negativity at home is going to change that</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree that Liverpool and Arsenal have improved.

I just think our stutter was down to the team changes and adapting to a new system/personnel.

We wouldn't have lost as many games as we have - imo - if it wasn't for the restructuring.
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First, I never EXPECTED Veron to slot in perfectly with our midfield. Therefore/However, I can't understand why Scholes and now Giggs fill in the attacking midfield role, while Veron is played in a central or flanking role. If you've seen him play for the NT or Lazio last year, its obvious that his is better suited to the attacking support role, rather than Fergie's vision. Not that I don't stand behind our manager, but if you're going to play someone OUT OF POSITION, you must allow an adjustment period. Yes, he was expensive, but if you believe the fickle press, then your support for this exception player is already tainted. You must grow roots before you blossom.

<img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />
 
As some might have already mentioned, I don't think that there's any one person to blame for us dropping points this season. SAF brought in the players that he thought would suit us and I totally agree with him. All it comes down to is that the team needed time to get use to each other's playing style and also the new system that SAF was playing. I have to say that I didn't agree with it at first, heck I was frustrated as hell when we were losing all those games, but i'm beginning to see that it's working. And to have the flexibility to switch between the 4-4-1-1 and our traditional 4-4-2 system is definitely helping us. I can't wait till next season when both these systems work to perfection. <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> I don't think anyone will complaint then!! Then SAF would not only have extremely skilled players to his disposal, he would have a choice between tactics!! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Whatever the reasons for our losses against WH, Boro, Bolton etc. at OT, it is not something we normally do or, at least, havn't done in previous seasons. One maybe, not three and certainly not 6 before Xmas. On the logic of some above, these teams have also improved and we should not be surprised they beat us? Bollocks! We played sloppy football and they won.

L/pool and Arse may or may not have improved, had we been as previous seasons and lost 3/4 as usual, we'd be 9/12 points ahead as before.
 
Last Season,we had the title wrapped up by April, it was so easy, the league did not seem to pose a challenge anymore. So, SAF decides to do Arse and Poo a favour by tampering with our existing system to go for bigger challenges, the CL. It's not a case of Arse and Poo improving but simply a case of Man Utd coming down from the lofty heights to give mere mortal teams a chance of winning something. Every three years or so, we let someone else win something. Things will be back to norm come next season, when we will have the season wrapped by Januay.
 
Originally posted by redinoz:
<strong>And you lot wonder why people call you arrogant.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Nope.

Same reason people call you lot arrogant I would imagine. Because they do. Or do you think that there isn't one arrogant fan who follows you? Which in itself is arrogance.

It's bred by success. It's human nature. Liverpool had a lot of arrogant supporters once.
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And you lot wonder why people call you arrogant
-------------------------------------------------

It's your assumption we wonder. What gives you the impression we care? It may be a surprise to you but some of us don't give a flying feck what others think!

We've lost more than usual this season by playing sloppy football before Xmas. That's the simple reason the run-in is 'exciting' If we hadn't done this it would have been over by now (again)
 
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