This team is mentally and emotionally damaged. MUFC have PTSD

Skills said:
Our own fans are behind the worst of the abuse.
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Theres definitely some truth to that. I think thats why a lot of the players started doing those terrible apology posts on Instagram a couple of years ago.
 
fps said:
Ironically the crowd in the stadium doesn't put enough pressure on the players. Think of how the Real or Barca faithful would react to the kind of rubbish United fans have to put up with.
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They have a vote in their club. We don't. Putting pressure on the players isn't a factor and wouldn't help.
 
Do you think any of our players read what is posted on here? I often wonder about how active they are on public forums - as passive readers obviously not posters
 
Our current struggles are unique because Fergie's era was unique. Ironically he did become 'bigger than the club' and in some ways we're still adjusting to life after him.
 
They are not good footballers - that's the biggest fact. Some were average to begin with, some declined because of age/injuries. But the "footballing" quality of the overall squad is poor. Add mental elements to that picture and it is a recipe for disaster. There is not one United player that is good enough to start for City, for instance!
 
The problem is who ever is on the pitch, who ever is in the managerial chair, no matter how many billions we spend we have exactly the same problems

It’s not the team or this manger it’s this club is broken.

untill some one comes in cleans house and basically does complete rebuild of the behind the scenes infrastructure, personal, management, board, executives, scouting, …. Then we will just have the same problem.
 
DRJosh said:
Do you think any of our players read what is posted on here? I often wonder about how active they are on public forums - as passive readers obviously not posters
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I don't see why they wouldn't. This forum being literally first on Google when you search 'Man United forum' only makes the likelihood of it even higher. These players are normal people just like us, they would want to know what (relatively civilised) fans think of them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There's a core of players that have been here throughout that whole period. Rashford, Martial, McT, Shaw. I think Lindelof too?
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Rashford and Martial both came in during 2015, 2 years into the dark ages. Jose dropped them both alternatively for his 2.5 years, and Martial didn't feature much during Ole's caretaker spell. McT became a fixture in Jose's 3rd season, and became a first-choice starter only after covid.

Other than Shaw and Rashford, I wouldn't call them a core part of the team, and I find it really hard to believe that this small handful has had more influence on the squad, for better or worse, than captain Bruno, captain Maguire, or widely-worshipped Ronaldo.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
The problem is who ever is on the pitch, who ever is in the managerial chair, no matter how many billions we spend we have exactly the same problems

It’s not the team or this manger it’s this club is broken.

untill some one comes in cleans house and basically does complete rebuild of the behind the scenes infrastructure, personal, management, board, executives, scouting, …. Then we will just have the same problem.
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Fergie lulled everyone of us -- the owners, BOD, club staff, ex-players and supporters alike -- into a false sense of security that we were set forever, that a foolproof system was in place and what we needed to do was to pass the proverbial baton to someone of good competence. While this is happening some of our biggest rivals were getting on with the times, establishing a strong core for their respective clubs in a manner more in line with the evolving ideals of football that can be built upon for years to come.

This isn't a slight on the great man, after all he seemed to have transcended general football trends and was consistently successful for such a long period of time.
 
gaffs said:
It was clear to me after the collapse today that this squad have just been through too much. Too many different managers, too many punishing defeats, too much criticism, too much disappointment. They have PTSD.

They are shot, they are fragile and they are maybe the easiest team in the league to beat.

All it took was the De Gea mistake and we were cooked. The players can see what is next and they completely implode and lose any confidence that the manager may have been trying to instill in them during the week.

Individually, the majority of the team are good players, they could go on to play in an organized Premier League team. But put them together and they look like a bunch of shell shocked veterans coming back from war.

The only answer is to rip the heart out of this team. I dont care if it means selling some of these players for next to nothing, or leaving highly paid players on the bench.

I would rather ETH assemble a team of no names and drill them hard. It seems to work for Brighton, Brentford and many other Prem teams.
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I have been thinking this for some time and this holds true today.

There is only ONE solution - Stability. Let the players know they have no escape here. Only play through it, work through it in therapy and perform together. No other way. But this can only be effective if the people above ETH are competent and voice their support openly and publicly. Unfortunately, I don’t think they’re competent and they don’t come out in support either. Remember what Edu did for Arteta when they were losing 7 in a row! It matters. I don’t think ETH can do it alone. It will take a miracle to overcome this start and I don’t see it happening. Another 2-3 years in the doldrums await us.
 
Isn't it an insult to all the poor people who really why through rough situations in life and have been diagnosed with PTSD?

Not limited to United actually but to all professional footballers actually.
These are young men who are lucky to have made their hobby and passion to their profession. On top they are paid obscene wages so they are set for a worry free life at very young age.

Other than in the army it's not about life and death. It's only about playing football. If you play shit, you usually have the chance to make up for it a few days later. We average Joes won't get that many chances after underperforming at our jobs that often.

Social media is an issue, especially as many players participate actively to boost their market value and income. It's up to the clubs to reign into the use of social media to protect their investments (players) of things get out of hands.

The pressure at United isn't higher than at other elite clubs like Real, Bayern, Barcelona or Liverpool. The scousers got a lot of stick last season but it's seems they managed to get out of their slump.
 
Winrar said:
I don't think lack of quality alone can explain these two shortcomings that normally don't happen to any other top division club with such alarming frequency:

1. Conceding shortly after scoring (Arsenal, Bayern, Galatasaray)
2. Conceding more than 1 goal inside ~5 minutes (Arsenal, Bayern, Forest)

Sure, these above 2 things can happen but are we just unlucky that these things happened to us so often this season? Do these things happen this often to clubs that are fighting to stay up in the PL, let alone any club in the top 4/6/8? Do you trust us to hold a lead for more than couple minutes against any team?
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Nah, he's right. These things happen often because we are unable to impose any sense of control in our games. Most teams can hurt you nowadays. There's a plan in place even by the small clubs, not just 2-3 players chasing lost causes. That's why treating the ball well has become essential and the team that takes best care of the ball is considered the best team in the world.

As Abraxas said, partly, the issue is tactical. Often times, we look stretched without any apparent reason. It's not so much about adding an extra defensive midfielder in the mix as it is about the nature of our press. It's mostly man-oriented & Bielsa-inspired. It can yield good results when everyone is alert and on song, but it also can drag players dangerously out of position. It was an issue last season too, but, then, the fine margins were going our way more often than not.

This goes hand in hand with the other big issue. We don't have players who can receive the ball in tight spaces and under pressure. People say build-up this and build-up that, but it takes two to tango. I can play the most well-timed and perfectly weighted pass to beat the press, but if you lose it immediately or if you can't receive it on the half-turn and therefore you give it back to the defenders, we're back to square one. This, also, happens a lot. It was quite telling that once we turned the game around against Forest and the adrenaline was replaced by the need to control the game, we reverted to 11 men behind the ball against ten men. This isn't tactical, it's our players listening to their instincts.

Add a few individual errors and suddenly your confidence is in the gutter. The only way to break the cycle is to work harder. Unless we admit that we are the more talented and expensive version of WHU. There are instances when a defender or a midfielder gets out of position to push the first attacker all the way back and, when that happens, our attacking players are just standing and watching instead of swarming him to get the ball. Then, with a simple pass, they bypass the United player who has committed himself and we find ourselves back-peddling like headless chickens.

If we were to simplify things, this is basically what Klopp teaches. His press is better organised and more effective than ETH's, but the principles are the same. Liverpool got to the top because they work hard. Putting the effort in allows them to take more attacking risks. And when the risks pay off, confidence runs through the whole team. We can't always be discussing about how to become more defensive to match the skills of our squad. It's amazing that this is an actual debate at club SAF managed. I was watching Spurs vs 'poll the other day, and Bissouma was often the only player screening the defence when they were in full attacking shape. Fecking Spurs are doing it, but, here, we want Gattuso to play next to Casemiro.

Break this vicious cycle. Find a way.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
Nah, he's right. These things happen often because we are unable to impose any sense of control in our games. Most teams can hurt you nowadays. There's a plan in place even by the small clubs, not just 2-3 players chasing lost causes. That's why treating the ball well has become essential and the team that takes best care of the ball is considered the best team in the world.

As Abraxas said, partly, the issue is tactical. Often times, we look stretched without any apparent reason. It's not so much about adding an extra defensive midfielder in the mix as it is about the nature of our press. It's mostly man-oriented & Bielsa-inspired. It can yield good results when everyone is alert and on song, but it also can drag players dangerously out of position. It was an issue last season too, but, then, the fine margins were going our way more often than not.

This goes hand in hand with the other big issue. We don't have players who can receive the ball in tight spaces and under pressure. People say build-up this and build-up that, but it takes two to tango. I can play the most well-timed and perfectly weighted pass to beat the press, but if you lose it immediately or if you can't receive it on the half-turn and therefore you give it back to the defenders, we're back to square one. This, also, happens a lot. It was quite telling that once we turned the game around against Forest and the adrenaline was replaced by the need to control the game, we reverted to 11 men behind the ball against ten men. This isn't tactical, it's our players listening to their instincts.

Add a few individual errors and suddenly your confidence is in the gutter. The only way to break the cycle is to work harder. Unless we admit that we are the more talented and expensive version of WHU. There are instances when a defender or a midfielder gets out of position to push the first attacker all the way back and, when that happens, our attacking players are just standing and watching instead of swarming him to get the ball. Then, with a simple pass, they bypass the United player who has committed himself and we find ourselves back-peddling like headless chickens.

If we were to simplify things, this is basically what Klopp teaches. His press is better organised and more effective than ETH's, but the principles are the same. Liverpool got to the top because they work hard. Putting the effort in allows them to take more attacking risks. And when the risks pay off, confidence runs through the whole team. We can't always be discussing about how to become more defensive to match the skills of our squad. It's amazing that this is an actual debate at club SAF managed. I was watching Spurs vs 'poll the other day, and Bissouma was often the only player screening the defence when they were in full attacking shape. Fecking Spurs are doing it, but, here, we want Gattuso to play next to Casemiro.

Break this vicious cycle. Find a way.
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I agree and I'm not really disagreeing with him. Both can be true. I believe it's a toxic combination of being poorly coached and a mental block among our team.
 
It's nuts, honestly, a piece about United's failed transfer policy is the main story on the Guardian football page, whilst below it the questions raised at UK Government level regarding City's owners allegedly assisting Russian's hiding their money is a little article.

Everyday there's doom about us, yet that story about City will only be written about when there's material developments, and that's the difference, United are suffocating under bad press with a cloud being built up around us whilst the spotlight stays away from others unless there are concrete facts to discuss... Why not spend the next few week writing thought pieces on the 115 financial irregularities and now assisting war criminals, nah they'll just continue to stir up as much negativity as possible wherever they can.

No wonder the club is being dragged through the sh** so much, and yeah, I hate the vampire squid owners too but the negativity is ridiculous, no wonder the players are being weighed down.
 
We are in a powerful vortex of negativity. I think the first thing will be for the Glazers to leave, this narrative needs to be framed in a new context.
 
Winrar said:
I don't think lack of quality alone can explain these two shortcomings that normally don't happen to any other top division club with such alarming frequency:

1. Conceding shortly after scoring (Arsenal, Bayern, Galatasaray)
2. Conceding more than 1 goal inside ~5 minutes (Arsenal, Bayern, Forest)

Sure, these above 2 things can happen but are we just unlucky that these things happened to us so often this season? Do these things happen this often to clubs that are fighting to stay up in the PL, let alone any club in the top 4/6/8? Do you trust us to hold a lead for more than couple minutes against any team?
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Sure they can, they come under the quality of having mental fortitude and resilience. It's still a quality, just not a technical one. It doesn't require a PTSD explanation which for me is overcomplicating matters. These players can and will do better at some stage if they take personal and collective responsibility and their minds are sufficiently concentrated by the manager.

It's not clinical or so deep as to be as difficult as PTSD can be to combat, it's just a sporting team suffering and there are patterns of behaviour in the team as far as lacking concentration and commitment which turn into patterns of actions such as conceding on cue and falling apart under any kind of duress. But we see this all the time in sport and then suddenly things can change.
 
Looking at the way McTominay celebrated the second goal, you can tell how devoid of confidence this team is. They were really relieved by it
 
Zed is not dead said:
Looking at the way McTominay celebrated the second goal, you can tell how devoid of confidence this team is. They were really relieved by it
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Lack of confidence is brought up every time we lose.

If the confidence is knocked out of them so easily then they aren't the right players for this club
 
Thread had valid reason to be bumped after the game.

Even if it’s not PTSD, these players genuinely struggle enormously in high stakes games.

Aside from culling them, is there anything that can be done to get them on an even keel?
 
Fortitude said:
Thread had valid reason to be bumped after the game.

Even if it’s not PTSD, these players genuinely struggle enormously in high stakes games.

Aside from culling them, is there anything that can be done to get them on an even keel?
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No, its a simple case of some players just not having the character to play for a "big" club - it's not a slight on them, very few do, and it's the clubs fault for not identifying their weaknesses.

Ben Foster was amazing at Watford on loan, he mentioned after his stint here the difference playing for United, he was terrible here because of the pressure and scrutiny.

I said before Ten Hag arrived that 95% of the squad needed to be replaced - the tactic of buying mentally strong players in Varane, Casemiro and Ronaldo backfired as they were all on the wane and had achieved everything, why would they want to carry players like Rashford who just hasn't got the character?

We seriously need to gut this squad, they're infecting all the new players we buy too, why languish between 4-8 when we should just take a hit and finish bottom half for a few seasons for a proper rebuild? Given enough time we're going to get relegated with this amount of dross anyway.
 
Yeah the thought of them coping in that Istanbul cauldron fills me with utter dread
 
There are a multitude of reasons for losses, poor tactics, players out of form, puzzling transfers, and possibly the factor that overlays everything is the diabolical ownership which permeates into the minds of everyone at the club.

We all understand that the Glazers aren’t on the pitch, but when you have owners without football knowledge, interest or passion and their main intention is financial and consequently results mean little , the teams motivation and desire undoubtedly suffers. Thank you Glazers and the FA for sanctioning an ownership that used the club as security to purchase itself.
 
Take their families, friends and loved ones hostage before each game, along with their Bentley/twat rovers/Ferraris and bling and refuse to let them have any back until they stop being so fecking wet and do what they are paid for, win football matches.
 
If I had the responsibility to build a 22 man squad that would challenge for the title in the next 3-4 years, these are the only players I would keep:

Gk/Gk

Rb/Rb Rcb/Rcb Lcb/Martinez Lb/Shaw

CM/Mainoo CM/Eriksen

Rw/Amad Am/Bruno Rashford/Garnacho

Striker/Hojlund
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Besides these nine, I don't think there is a player I would keep. And even Amad and Mainoo is out of hope rather than any firm belief that they'll make it.

So, to answer the thread, I don't think it's any PTSD. These players are simply not good enough/ are past it/ too happy to just get a fat paycheck/ have already checked out.
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Insanity said:
If I had the responsibility to build a 22 man squad that would challenge for the title in the next 3-4 years, these are the only players I would keep:

Gk/Gk

Rb/Rb Rcb/Rcb Lcb/Martinez Lb/Shaw

CM/Mainoo CM/Eriksen

Rw/Amad Am/Bruno Rashford/Garnacho

Striker/Hojlund
​
Besides these nine, I don't think there is a player I would keep. And even Amad and Mainoo is out of hope rather than any firm belief that they'll make it.

So, to answer the thread, I don't think it's any PTSD. These players are simply not good enough/ are past it/ too happy to just get a fat paycheck/ have already checked out.
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Rashford can go as well. Talks a good game but when was the last time he bust a gut for the team?
 
United's issues are quite complex

a- we've got players with long contracts and silly salaries who know that the club can't get rid off them
b- we've got football people who has low football IQ. That means that players know that they can take the club for a ride throughout their entire contract only to show up few months prior to their contract expiry.
c- we've got players who are heading towards the end of their career. That means that they are here for their last pay cheque
d- we've got players who believe their own hype.
e- our fitness and tactical coaches are a joke.
 
Rashford hasn't challenged for a header or gone in for a 50-50 in about 5 years.
Varane came on last night and I don't know if I've ever seen a player so obviously not wanting to be on the pitch.

And the biggest issue is we don't have one player that will give out to these lads. There's nobody there to set the standards.

If we had a Keane or a Robson or Bruce, Schmeichel, Rooney they wouldn't allow weak attitudes like that, they'd be calling them out. Instead we get to watch them every single week
 
Fortitude said:
Thread had valid reason to be bumped after the game.

Even if it’s not PTSD, these players genuinely struggle enormously in high stakes games.

Aside from culling them, is there anything that can be done to get them on an even keel?
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It's not PTSD, it's a gyspy curse. I can't see any other reason for it.
 
Utd won a cup and made an FA Cup final within the last 6/7 months BTW everyone.
 
Utd heap said:
Utd won a cup and made an FA Cup final within the last 6/7 months BTW everyone.
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And yet this team crumbles whenever playing against a strong team or faces some other severe adversity like the red card yesterday. The fact that this is a consistent issue through EtH's time (and before) shows that there is a deep issue in this squad.

Remember that Rangnick brought a psychologist as part of his staff, I would really like to know what that guy concluded and saw as right action to fix it.
 
stefan92 said:
And yet this team crumbles whenever playing against a strong team or faces some other severe adversity like the red card yesterday. The fact that this is a consistent issue through EtH's time (and before) shows that there is a deep issue in this squad.

Remember that Rangnick brought a psychologist as part of his staff, I would really like to know what that guy concluded and saw as right action to fix it.
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It was the same before Rangnick. In Solskjaer's second full season, they capitulated the very moment there were mere whispers of a title challenge in late January. Won two out of the next eight league games and by the time we visited the Etihad, City couldn't care less about losing that game. They wouldn't have cared anyway because, other than the defeat in the derby, they had been on a run which consisted of 18 wins and just that one defeat. For better or worse, that's where the bar for the title is nowadays.

I'm also in favour of sports club hiring professionals to take care of the athletes' mental health and help them deal with the pressure and the stress that comes with a highly antagonistic environment, as well as with dealing with fame and constantly having your performances and your private life under the microscope. On the other hand, it seems that we live in an era when an individual or a group of people fail to meet an objective, it always has to do with a psychological barrier that prevents them from getting what they want.

As someone else wrote a few pages back, the truth is probably simpler than that. They're not good enough to challenge for the big prizes. If you take the pressure of beating City/Liverpool in a race for the PL trophy and allow them to play the sit back and hit on the counter football they're comfortable with, chances are you'll get a bunch of happy individuals who will finish in the top four more often than not. It's not anything unique, either. Arsenal, during the later years of Wenger's tenure, were in a similar situation. No pressure, content with their top-four trophy and the occasional cup. It's on the club/manager to either indulge them or cut the chord and make a fresh start. The latter being Rangnick's final diagnosis, i presume, judging by his open-heart surgery comment.
 
I've always maintained that all the players from the end of the Ole/Rangnick era should of been replaced or at best kept as squad players (example Maguire/McTominay), the fact we persist with Dalot, Rashford, Fernandes etc falls into the Einstein definition of insanity, persisting with the same thing and expecting different results. I'm not trying to single players out, it shows huge failings throughout the club that we're at this point, the players from the past will capitulate, the more recent signings aren't good enough to replace them, the cycle continues. We could go full Chelsea mode and sign everyone and their dog, that doesn't seem to have worked, or just stop signing players for a while and fix the recruitment side of the club with a DOF and an improved scouting system. We'll probably try and fix things with another Mason Mount and some hand me downs from other clubs.
 
Softest team in the world. Both mentally and physically. It's almost as if the entire club has accepted this underdog role where performing well as we should is levels above expectations. It's currently embedded in the culture of the club and only a massive clear out of both players and executives will fix this.
 
Big Andy said:
It's not PTSD, it's a gyspy curse. I can't see any other reason for it.
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What was really weird yesterday was the feeling that we might dare to believe, but the wicked witch quelled all hope and put us back in our place again.

I don't know what deal Fergie struck up, but we've been wretched for a long, long time now - every, single time it looks like we're about to turn a corner we get slapped back down again. It does start to feel like a curse.
Utd heap said:
Utd won a cup and made an FA Cup final within the last 6/7 months BTW everyone.
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I think the below makes a case for itself. A couple of cup runs sprinkled in doesn't detract from there being a very clear issue when it comes to high pressure environments and situations.
Licha-Vidic said:
Never won away against Top 9 teams last season.
Never won away against currently Top 9 teams this season.
Never won away in this champion league season.

It's not injuries or VAR.. It's a symptomatic issue we have with ETH.
Will we win in Turkey against Galatasary? If not, we will not have won any single away group stage game.

As much as we can cry about ref and VAR, we have not proved anything in winning away from home against better teams.
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TempusFugit said:
Softest team in the world. Both mentally and physically. It's almost as if the entire club has accepted this underdog role where performing well as we should is levels above expectations. It's currently embedded in the culture of the club and only a massive clear out of both players and executives will fix this.
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Completely agree, its heartbreaking to see the club in this shape. Struggling in every game, ongoing injury crisis, Refs/Var fecking us over at every opportunity, recent tragedy, humiliated by our rivals, media circling like vultures, opposition fans laughing at us....if this isn't enough to provoke a reaction from the players/manager then what is, the players cannot seem to show any fight, its embarrassing.
 
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