This "PL Proven" Bollocks

VidaRed

Unimaginative FC
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Here's a list of managers who have won the title since its inspection till now. So let's see how many of them were actually "PL Proven" at the time of their appointment.

1992–93Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1993–94Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1994–95Blackburn RoversKenny Dalglish
1995–96Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1996–97Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1997–98ArsenalArsène Wenger
1998–99Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1999–20Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2000–01Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2001–02ArsenalArsène Wenger
2002–03Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2003–04ArsenalArsène Wenger
2004–05ChelseaJosé Mourinho
2005–06ChelseaJosé Mourinho
2006–07Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2007–08Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2008–09Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2009–10ChelseaCarlo Ancelotti
2010–11Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2011–12Manchester CityRoberto Mancini
2012–13Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2013–14Manchester CityManuel Pellegrini
2014–15ChelseaJosé Mourinho
2015–16Leicester CityClaudio Ranieri
2016–17ChelseaAntonio Conte
2017–18Manchester CityPep Guardiola
2018–19Manchester CityPep Guardiola
2019–20LiverpoolJürgen Klopp
2020–21Manchester CityPep Guardiola

Title Count:-
Sir Alex ferguson - 13
Arsène Wenger - 3
José Mourinho - 3
Pep Guardiola - 3
Carlo Ancelotti - 1
Kenny Dalglish - 1
Roberto Mancini - 1
Manuel Pellegrini - 1
Claudio Ranieri - 1
Antonio Conte - 1
Jürgen Klopp - 1

Managers with no PL experiance and hence not "PL Proven" have won 26 titles [SAF 13, AS 3, JM 2, PEP 3, CA 1, RM 1, MP 1, AC 1, JKP 1]
Managers who are "PL Proven" (i.e., actually won a title previously) have won 2 titles [Kenny Dalgish with Blackburn Rovers and José Mourinho in his second stint with Chelsea]
Managers with prior PL experiance but not "PL Proven" have won 1 title [Claudio Ranieri with Leicester which lets face was a once in a century event]

Now lets have a look at what the managers who were not "PL Proven" won elsewhere before being appointed as manager in the premier league:-
Sir Alex ferguson - Won the scottish league alongwith the european cup winners cup and the super cup with aberdeen.
Arsène Wenger - Won the french league with monaco.
José Mourinho - Won the portugese league alongwith the uefa cup and the champions league with porto.
Pep Guardiola - Won the spanish league and german league alongwith the champions league, uefa super cup and fifa club world cup with barcelona and bayern munich.
Carlo Ancelotti - Won the italian league alongwith the champions league, uefa super cup and fifa club world cup with ac milan.
Roberto Mancini - Won the italian league with inter milan.
Manuel Pellegrini - Won the ecuadorian league with liga de quito, the argentinian league with san lorenzo and river plate and the uefa intertoto cup with villareal.
Antonio Conte - Won the italian league with juventus.
Jürgen Klopp - Won the german league with dortmund.

Now lets have a look at what our prospective managers have achieved:-
Mauricio Pochettino - Yet to win a league title.
Erik Ten Hag - Won the dutch league twice.

The odds are clearly in favour of managers who are not "PL Proven" but have won the league in europe, so will the "PL Proven" brigrade kindly feck off ?
 
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I thought PL proven only applied to new player signings?

PL experience is probably not needed for a new manager. Probably.
 
It's Cliche rubbish that gets thrown around by unimaginative narrow minded cretins like Andy Towmsend and Jermine Jenas, and unfortunately people who lack the ability to form their own opinions lap it up as fact
 
Honestly believe that it gets thrown around by media pundits and ex pros to cover for their lack of knowledge or awareness regarding football players and managers plying their trade overseas.

No serious top club believes that cliche and the best clubs have wholeheartedly rejected that premise when it comes to their hires and recruitment. Can't say it's hurt them either...

The 'PL proven' trope for new managers always makes me think of relegation battling squads looking for someone to steady the ship from the bracket of Big Sams, Woys, Pardews or Bruce level managers. Never elite clubs looking to challenge for top honors.

The elite clubs don't give a feck about any of that and quite simply go after the best attainable in Europe
 
Experience is only good if it's good experience. Bad experience is worse than no experience.
 
Your logic is close to laughable. Winning 13 premier league titles with no premier league experience is a hell of a feat. I just wonder if by the time he’d won number 13, Fergie was able to draw on any relevant experiences from the other 12 times he’d won. The data is technically correct but the analysis is way off. :lol:
 
Dan_F said:
Your logic is close to laughable. Winning 13 premier league titles with no premier league experience is a hell of a feat. I just wonder if by the time he’d won number 13, Fergie was able to draw on any relevant experiences from the other 12 times he’d won. The data is technically correct but the analysis is way off. :lol:
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So let's get this straight. You're saying winning in the PL in the past is good. Pochettino has won feck all in the PL and so apparently that makes his point moot.

:wenger: :wenger: :wenger: :wenger: all round in that post.
 
Wasn't Klopp "PL Proven" by the time he won?

Not many on the list won it in their first season and many have talked in interviews about adjusting to the league.

Not that I agree with the fact that you have to be premier league proven to win the premier league but it doesn't hurt to have some experience of the schedule (Christmas fixtures, extra cup etc)
 
Dan_F said:
Your logic is close to laughable. Winning 13 premier league titles with no premier league experience is a hell of a feat. I just wonder if by the time he’d won number 13, Fergie was able to draw on any relevant experiences from the other 12 times he’d won. The data is technically correct but the analysis is way off. :lol:
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It's bkeedin obvious that when you win it for the first time then he has had PL experience in winning the darn thing. The numpties are saying that Poch should be the one because he has managed in the PL.
The point is that all these managers who won it got employed by their clubs without managing in the PL or English league before that.
It's a stupid argument in any case. Anyone who manages in the PL will have experience in it the second season anyway.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
It's Cliche rubbish that gets thrown around by unimaginative narrow minded cretins like Andy Towmsend and Jermine Jenas, and unfortunately people who lack the ability to form their own opinions lap it up as fact
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Does anyone listen to those kinds of pundits? They speak in clichés and truisms.
 
Rightnr said:
So let's get this straight. You're saying winning in the PL in the past is good. Pochettino has won feck all in the PL and so apparently that makes his point moot.

:wenger: :wenger: :wenger: :wenger: all round in that post.
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His point is that managers can get experience over time at a particular job.
 
Then why did we sack Ole? He had PL experience. He got to the 2nd spot. He qualified us to CL spot twice. He got us to a European Final. He managed big world class players.
 
Tyrion said:
His point is that managers can get experience over time at a particular job.
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We're not a work experience company. Poch had that at Spurs and failed.

This PL experience bollocks is pure propaganda from the same idiots who got us here over the past 10 years (mostly ex-players and supposed United legends).
 
In the case of pundits "I would go for X because he's PL proven" often just means "I know X because he managed in the PL, the only league I actually watch."
 
I can only assume that people who use the term mean that these managers have an understanding of what makes British football the way it is-very physically demanding, intense and that it could be something a newer manager has to adapt to, especially if they have a very clear philosophy of their own.

I get that fans want the Ajax manager-I would like EtV here as my own favourite choice as I think the club need to move in a different direction but I'm guessing it's going to take more patience, more adaptation and a lot of investment with EtV. Poch I feel would probably get on better with the squad he would inherit with his more pragmatic approach and knowledge of England. I'd rather take a chance on EtV though. Got little to lose at this point :(
 
It's better if you have more experience, for sure. In any job or task in life. I don't think this is even up for debate. If ETH had PL experience as well as his record with Ajax, he'd be less of a risk for us.

But it's not a deal-breaker for me or anywhere close to it. As OP states plenty of managers who were unproven did well. But this isn't because they weren't PL proven, it's because they were world class managers (esp Klopp and Pep).

If we're only hiring PL proven, we'd be shutting ourselves off from potentially the next great managers who will more likely than not come from overseas.
 
PL proven is just a clickbait word the media use and then gets passed down to us for debates. Moyes is PL experienced and what did he achieve with us…? What we need is a manager who has a clear goal and doesn’t fold under pressure. Winning experience is also essential so he knows what it takes. He has to know how to handle media as that in today’s age is a massive advantage to have the media on side. But above all if the owners of said club are the Glazers then forget all the above requirements and just do as your told boy!
 
Random Task said:
I thought PL proven only applied to new player signings?

PL experience is probably not needed for a new manager. Probably.
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That is correct.. What we do expect is that any new manager, should have extensive experience in senior leagues, in order to demonstrate his "experience" and "execution" aspects. As in job interview, relevant experience.

In fact, I would be more interested in his "management team" experience and methodology, as how they work on training to meet tactical requirement, set piece training, how to avoid Jones syndrome.
 
VidaRed said:
Here's a list of managers who have won the title since its inspection till now. So let's see how many of them were actually "PL Proven" at the time of their appointment.

1992–93Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1993–94Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1994–95Blackburn RoversKenny Dalglish
1995–96Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1996–97Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1997–98ArsenalArsène Wenger
1998–99Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
1999–20Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2000–01Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2001–02ArsenalArsène Wenger
2002–03Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2003–04ArsenalArsène Wenger
2004–05ChelseaJosé Mourinho
2005–06ChelseaJosé Mourinho
2006–07Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2007–08Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2008–09Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2009–10ChelseaCarlo Ancelotti
2010–11Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2011–12Manchester CityRoberto Mancini
2012–13Manchester UnitedSir Alex Ferguson
2013–14Manchester CityManuel Pellegrini
2014–15ChelseaJosé Mourinho
2015–16Leicester CityClaudio Ranieri
2016–17ChelseaAntonio Conte
2017–18Manchester CityPep Guardiola
2018–19Manchester CityPep Guardiola
2019–20LiverpoolJürgen Klopp
2020–21Manchester CityPep Guardiola

Title Count:-
Sir Alex ferguson - 13
Arsène Wenger - 3
José Mourinho - 3
Pep Guardiola - 3
Carlo Ancelotti - 1
Kenny Dalglish - 1
Roberto Mancini - 1
Manuel Pellegrini - 1
Claudio Ranieri - 1
Antonio Conte - 1
Jürgen Klopp - 1

Managers with no PL experiance and hence not "PL Proven" have won 26 titles [SAF 13, AS 3, JM 2, PEP 3, CA 1, RM 1, MP 1, AC 1, JKP 1]
Managers who are "PL Proven" (i.e., actually won a title previously) have won 2 titles [Kenny Dalgish with Blackburn Rovers and José Mourinho in his second stint with Chelsea]
Managers with prior PL experiance but not "PL Proven" have won 1 title [Claudio Ranieri with Leicester which lets face was a once in a century event]

Now lets have a look at what the managers who were not "PL Proven" won elsewhere before being appointed as manager in the premier league:-
Sir Alex ferguson - Won the scottish league alongwith the european cup winners cup and the super cup with aberdeen.
Arsène Wenger - Won the french league with monaco.
José Mourinho - Won the portugese league alongwith the uefa cup and the champions league with porto.
Pep Guardiola - Won the spanish league and german league alongwith the champions league, uefa super cup and fifa club world cup with barcelona and bayern munich.
Carlo Ancelotti - Won the italian league alongwith the champions league, uefa super cup and fifa club world cup with ac milan.
Roberto Mancini - Won the italian league with inter milan.
Manuel Pellegrini - Won the italian league with liga de quito.
Antonio Conte - Won the italian league with juventus.
Jürgen Klopp - Won the german league with dortmund.

Now lets have a look at what our prospective managers have achieved:-
Mauricio Pochettino - Yet to win a league title.
Erik Ten Hag - Won the dutch league twice.

The odds are clearly in favour of managers who are not "PL Proven" but have won the league in europe, so will the "PL Proven" brigrade kindly feck off ?
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Manuel Pellegrini batting them all off the park there. What a fantastic achievement!
 
Experience is accumulative hence only the first season technically counts for managers coming into the premier league. Subsequent seasons would already be enriched by some form of experience gained in the first season.

My conclusion is the same: PL experience has little significance. Rather success depends on a whole host of variables including club culture and resources.
 
Not apple to apple.

Jose SAF Pep Arsene was pedigree back in their days

Should compare the best english has to offer vs the best europe has to offer

Ask any mediocre euro manager to survive relegation theyd be shred to pieces

Something are just built for one thing
 
Dan_F said:
Your logic is close to laughable. Winning 13 premier league titles with no premier league experience is a hell of a feat. I just wonder if by the time he’d won number 13, Fergie was able to draw on any relevant experiences from the other 12 times he’d won. The data is technically correct but the analysis is way off. :lol:
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It's becoming cult like the delusional logic these Ten Hag supporters come up with and like a cult 99% of them know nothing about him but yet don't want any other way
 
PL experience hasn't historically been discussed for managers, so a thread on it seems a bit over the top, albeit a well-documented OP.
 
Being premier league proven is an asset. It means that the manager in question won't go in the league completely blindsided to the style of game he'll be facing like LVG did when he was with us. Having said that, it's not as important as many people think. That's because most modern managers have a global view of football and will keep tabs on every league knowing that they might end up managing there very soon. The time when the EPL was frowned upon and avoided as it was during LVG's time are long over. Everyone wants to manage there.
 
ROFLUTION said:
PL experience hasn't historically been discussed for managers, so a thread on it seems a bit over the top, albeit a well-documented OP.
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Exactly, SAF dominated the PL from its inception till he retired (13 wins out of 20), then you have managers like Mourinho, Pellegrini, Ancelotti, and Conte winning it in their 1st season, Wenger & Pep in their 2nd season, Klopp needed few years to do it, this does not tell us anything about whether a manager needs to be PL proven to win PL.
 
Dan_F said:
Your logic is close to laughable. Winning 13 premier league titles with no premier league experience is a hell of a feat. I just wonder if by the time he’d won number 13, Fergie was able to draw on any relevant experiences from the other 12 times he’d won. The data is technically correct but the analysis is way off. :lol:
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exactly, and this applies to Pep too, he won it in his 2nd season back in 17/18, so by that time he is "PL Proven", the OP can't then use Pep's subsequent wins as a win without being PL Proven!
 
It's also bullshit when it comes to players. David Silva and Aguero were not "Premier League Proven." Van Nistelrooy, Henry, Bergkamp, Vidic, Evra.

Moyes was PL proven. So is Maguire.
 
Dan_F said:
Your logic is close to laughable. Winning 13 premier league titles with no premier league experience is a hell of a feat. I just wonder if by the time he’d won number 13, Fergie was able to draw on any relevant experiences from the other 12 times he’d won. The data is technically correct but the analysis is way off. :lol:
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OmarUnited4ever said:
exactly, and this applies to Pep too, he won it in his 2nd season back in 17/18, so by that time he is "PL Proven", the OP can't then use Pep's subsequent wins as a win without being PL Proven!
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He meant that you do not need PL experience to win your first title. Of course after a full season any coach will have PL experience.

The narrative is that if you do not have PL experience you won't make it here. So first you need to take on a job at a smaller club, and work your way up which OP's example has show is not the case.
 
OmarUnited4ever said:
Exactly, SAF dominated the PL from its inception till he retired (13 wins out of 20), then you have managers like Mourinho, Pellegrini, Ancelotti, and Conte winning it in their 1st season, Wenger & Pep in their 2nd season, Klopp needed few years to do it, this does not tell us anything about whether a manager needs to be PL proven to win PL.
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Yeah it does, it tells us it's meaningless. Football is football whichever country its played in, and a good manager is a good manager whichever league they're managing in. Lacking management experience would be a big problem, but lacking PL experience is irrelevant. You'd watch videos and compile analysis on every team just as you would in any other league. It's not like a foreign manager gets bamboozled when they come up against a PL team in the CL or EL.
 
NinjaZombie said:
It's also bullshit when it comes to players. David Silva and Aguero were not "Premier League Proven." Van Nistelrooy, Henry, Bergkamp, Vidic, Evra.

Moyes was PL proven. So is Maguire.
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Think this PL Proven Bollox should apply more to players instead of managers. Can list hundreds of players since PL inception which performed better than their PL proven counterpart. Exampe from just current crop: KdB, Fernandinho, Bernardo Silva (actually almost all of City midfielders), Salah, Firmino, Fabinho, Ruben Dias, Alisson, Ederson, Bruno, Odegaard, Son, etc etc etc.
 
Caesar2290 said:
He meant that you do not need PL experience to win your first title. Of course after a full season any coach will have PL experience.

The narrative is that if you do not have PL experience you won't make it here. So first you need to take on a job at a smaller club, and work your way up which OP's example has show is not the case.
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All the PL winning managers so far, won major trophies in Europe before coming to the PL, SAF, Pep Klopp, Mourinho, Ancelotti & Conte were successful European managers before they arrived in the PL the exceptions were Pellegrini and Raneiri, but they arrived to PL as very experienced managers, and it's not a given that your success in Europe will mean you will succeed in the PL, LVG failed with us, despite winning leagues in Netherlands, Spain, and Germany, Benitez failed to win PL with Liverpool even though he won leagues in Spain prior to arriving to the PL.

i don't think there's a narrative that a manager with no PL experience won't make it here, for Poch & ETH, it seems the discussion centers around their ability, not their track record in the PL.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Yeah it does, it tells us it's meaningless. Football is football whichever country its played in, and a good manager is a good manager whichever league they're managing in. Lacking management experience would be a big problem, but lacking PL experience is irrelevant. You'd watch videos and compile analysis on every team just as you would in any other league. It's not like a foreign manager gets bamboozled when they come up against a PL team in the CL or EL.
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Agree 100%.
 
No PL experience normally means a longer bedding in time. There are exceptions to the rule of course but it happens an awful lot with players and managers that there is an adjustment period. Pep and Klopp both needed a season to adjust, Sancho this season for us only just finding his feet after struggling for 6 months.

In fairness it is only relevant if your making a choice between two players or managers and there is nothing to else to separate them, you pick the one with PL experience because you would expect them to be more likely to hit the ground running. Rather than needing some time to adjust.
 
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