This doesn't mean a league is less quality but I suppose it does tell what you value as quality which I think this thread is indicating.
This is the worst quality PL season since?
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This doesn't mean a league is less quality but I suppose it does tell what you value as quality which I think this thread is indicating.
Midtable football is the best it's been for a while. There's also a decent bit of tactical diversity among teams in the middle pack and lower end which adds to the interest.
Also the only side still undefeated in European competition this season is Man United. And we're 14th.
Also the only side still undefeated in European competition this season is Man United. And we're 14th.
It’s not how I feel watching the game.
Not really. Why can't we consider them as mutually exclusive? There has been plenty of seasons where all PL teams farely poorly in Europe but had fascinating title races.
Its not relative.
So you're determining quality of the league to a title race then?
I always wonder about these things, because you've -absolutely- got a point. Manchester United being atrocious tarnishes our opinion, and there are some good teams and good players about.The top sides are slightly weaker and going through transition, the mid-pack is much stronger and the Championship to PL gulf is growing.
Pretty much every side in the PL now has huge resources and backing behind them so the competition is growing each season.
I feel like these arguments though are always propelled by people who support traditionally bigger clubs because they struggle to admit that they're now shite and other people are good. As a comfort blanket it must mean everyone is shite.
...but my mind wanders back a bit to the 36 year old Cristiano Ronaldo rejoining Man Utd only 3 seasons ago and scoring 18 goals for us that year against largely the same quality of player around the league.
I do think it's fair to say the quality has dropped a little since the late 2000's-2019. There does seem to be a lack of star quality. Comparing any footballer (excepting Mo Salah) to Messi, Ronaldo, Robben and Rooney might not seem fair, but it does feel like those players would -absolutely- still destroy the current best in the Premier League.
I think there's an exaggeration of how much better the middle teams are, there has always been quality in that part of the table. I don't feel a team like Nottingham Forest with that style would stand out much or perform anywhere close to what they've done this season in the 2005-2010 period. Brighton are good, but they're not better than Leicester when they won the FA Cup and were close to getting in the top 4 for a couple of seasons.
What ? Don't know how you came to that argument . The whole point is, this years league run in has been very poor and it has been wrapped up before March. Literally what OP said.
so yes, it has been a poor PL season for pretty much all top teams and that's reflected in the league table.
That's classic hindsight, though. You look back at those players entire career. I for one could certainly see someone between Mbappé, Haaland, Yamal, Vinicius, Saka, Wirtz etc. being talked about in a similar way in hindsight 10+ years from now. Sure, Messi and Ronaldo might seem out of reach as they literally both have a claim for the GOAT but even then, Yamal might just make it.
I saw the thread as speaking generally about the quality of the PL. I disagree that because the run in is decided in terms of the title and relegation that it means the quality of the PL is poor.
Yamal maybe, Mbappe definitely. Haaland has the numbers for sure. But Saka? What the actual Fcuk? Wirtz???! Comparable to Robben or Tevez or Rooney or Iniesta or any one of a hundred players in their era?
I don't think it's hindsight. The reason I chose Ronaldo for my example was that a 36 year old Ronaldo came in and still banged 18 goals in in the -current- era of the Premier League. That he himself said how badly our standards had slipped - he was a prick, but he was correct. I think standards -have- slipped. Maybe that's more a coaching of system vs ability but it feels like the genius-level football players are notably absent.
To steelman your argument, I feel I am saying this from a very Man-United centric POV I guess, and football could be improving overall technically and physically behind the scenes. But those Cristiano numbers bely that myth. Zlatan came in to us in his 30's, Cavani too, and both excelled in what felt like a similar quality of league - another two players who had their prime in the mid 2000's. How good they were before is legend, but again - a prime Haaland vs a prime Zlatan, who do you think is the better player overall? And Zlatan wasn't even the best 9 in the world at that time, in HIS absolute prime.
Manchester City as a unit were probably the best team of all time when they won their treble, so you could argue that maybe footballing systems have got better overall as well, I think. It's not a hill I'll die on completely regarding how good players are now vs then - but it does feel like the ability isn't quite at the same level now. Perhaps because they aren't allowed to be.
absolutely did not label them a failure. but are they convincingly better than teams who have come 6th at any point in the last decade? not particularly and in many cases i would argue other 6ths would beat the current brighton. Same for 7th, 8th and so on. This is a not criticism of these teams, they are doing well and getting deserved plaudits, but while they are achieving very well as clubs, there is no way they represent an overall improved standard of the league. The fact is the top teams are weaker than ever, the bottom ones are terrible, and the middle teams are doing well, as have done plenty of well run teams through the years. For example, i picked the last time we won it - which wasnt a very strong year either, and the 6th place team then was Moyes' Everton. They had come 7th, 7th, 6th, 8th and 5th. Harry Redknapps Porstmouth was a fantastic strong team and came 14th. There are countless examples of mid section teams that were very good like the current ones, but the top teams were stronger. Overall the league is weaker IMO.
Some more context, the random choice of 1997. 6th place a chelsea of di Matteo, Vialli, Lebeouf, Petrescu, Zola. There is often a complete revisionism that back in the 90s it was United or Arsenal and a couple of others but its absolutely not the case. Chelsea of 1997 would probably beat current Chelsea 9 times out of 10. Another random year of 2003. 6th place was Blackburn under Souness who also got a league cup semi final. Friedel, Tugay, Duff, Yorke and Cole (who got 26 goals between them), Lucas Neill, David Dunn. This was another really solid side that would comfortably compete in todays top half.
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I think you misunderstood what I meant. I can see their career developing in a way over the next 10 years that they might be talked about in the same way later. Not that they have shown this level now. That's exactly what I meant by hindsight. You look at Robben, Rooney, Tevez' and you see their full career - of course players like Saka and Wirtz can't live up to that now. They're young enough though to still make a big impact over the next 10 years.
The other points in your post are absolutely valid, of course. Systems do constrain players more nowadays and even flair players have to track back, shadow mark and press, for the most part. I will say, there seems to be a lack of proper no9 superstars. But again, we don't know if the next Lewandowski or Mbappé is already out there somewhere but will only be recognized as a great in 15 years. We only ever see that in hindsight.
Sure, with a player like Yamal you already know, injury forbid, he'll be one of the greats. But that's not how it always goes. Had you looked at Robben at Sakas age, scoring 8 goals in 50 games for Chelsea you wouldn't laugh at comparing him to Saka, who scored double the amount, 16 goals in 35 games in just one season last year. Theres no guarantee Saka will go on to have a career like Robben, but at this point he certainly still might. And Wirtz is even younger, wait until you've seen him play for Real Madrid or Bayern for 8+ years.
I take your point regarding other good mid table teams in the past but again, you're also doing what the other poster I exchanged posts with did and are looking at star players from the past with hindsight. Not that I don't think you've got a point, but I believe you big up teams from the past a bit too much due to looking at the full careers of the players you mentioned. It's only natural and hard to prevent because we can't compare the current Joao Pedro to the full career of Cole, as a random example. Pedro is on course to have a similar output to Cole's 2003 season. Depending on how Pedro develops you might look at the player very differently in 10-15 years. Same as some other young Brighton players.
Depending on how their careers go from here on you might be able to talk about Newcastle sitting in 9th with players like Isak, Gordon, Guimares and Tonali. Some of those names or those at other sids in the middle of the table could have a very different ring to them in a decade from now. Not all of them of course, but some will for sure.
18/19 and 21/22 were incredible
I think the league is more competitive than its ever been.
The biggest factor for Liverpool has been injuries. They've had no really bad ones and no groups of injuries where they've had loads missing at the same time. Interestingly Slot was apparently picked because of his fitness record at Feyenoord.
The biggest factor for Liverpool has been injuries. They've had no really bad ones and no groups of injuries where they've had loads missing at the same time. Interestingly Slot was apparently picked because of his fitness record at Feyenoord.
Probably the most boring in a long time, the title is already wrapped up, relegation almost nailed on. Even the majority of games are just plain boring, honestly if I grew up in this era watching football i doubt i'd even find it interesting
We arent challenging so to make themselves feel better our fans are trying to claim its a poor quality epl.....
Probably since when Liverpool last won it
Title race done and relegation done. And we still have 3 months left.
Title race done and relegation done. And we still have 3 months left.
This season is hardly the worst. It would have been a very competitive season, at both ends of the table, bar Liverpool, who have been very good.
I don't think im doing that. I chose random seasons and have highlighted solid players such as friedel, dunn, duff, petrescu and so on. That these teams also had some quality players is a coincidence, but a relevant one.
It's been an absolutely horrendous season, quality wise.
Since the last time the dippers won it.