Theon VS Aldo - All time 3 yr peak - Auction draft

Who would win based on selected 3 yr peak?

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
So @Gio , who stops Ronaldo here?

P.S. I absolutely hate arguing in this game. You have some of my favourites, I worship Bestie and Zico makes me cream like few others. I have to do it as it is my job, but I won't say I am enjoying nitpicking your side.

@Physiocrat I myself rate Bestie higher than Garrincha but I wouldn't say he was head and shoulders above.
 
Theon said:
Need to go now Aldo but really quickly.

Sorry but you're describing Garrincha much more than Best or Ronaldinho. Best was a direct, high tempo player, not a ball hogger - Garrincha on the other hand was exactly as you describe. He was the ultimate ball hogger, preferring to try and beat a man twice than play direct and get the ball forward. It's abundantly clear from the footage available and probably why his goal scoring record is not that impressive.

Also as I've already mentioned, Ronaldo as well looked to get on the ball more than Romario and, as your best player, presumably you would want Pele in possession as much as possible.



What? No one is set to man mark Ronaldo.

Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck and Desailly will all have a big role to play on Ronaldo depending on where he is at the time.
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Desailly has to be around Pele, he cannot afford to be distracted by Ronaldo, and I would like to know how do you plan to stop Ronaldo with your CB duo, when he's running at full pelt with the ball or making a darting run playing at their shoulder and receive passes from Pele, Socrates, Garrincha and Bozsik.
 
Gio said:
I think it's not an issue. The players you're using to compare are completely irrelevant in this context. Best is far more of a team-player than Garrincha who is clearly the most individualistic on the park. Cruyff played a totally different role and had the entire system set up around his needs and abilities.
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Ok, let's forget about that example.

Do you disagree that it is impossible to bring the best out of Best and Ronaldinho on the same team, given we are talking about their peaks? I mean just look at Dinho at Barca, no one would come close to Best in thinking he should be having more of the ball. That team literally had no issue whatsoever with Dinho doing whatever the feck he wanted, they knew if they want to win big it has to be through him. Here, if he starts dwelling on the ball that much that would very obviously leave Bestie on the sidelines for a major part of the game. What made George Best one of the greatest players ever? Dribbling!
 
The main difference is how Berti Vogts will be able to tuck in and provide cover or pick up a man (as he so effectively did in the 1974 final). Whereas our attack keeps your defence strung wide right across the park, creating space and channels for Zico and Romario to do what they did best.
 
Aldo said:
Ok, let's forget about that example.

Do you disagree that it is impossible to bring the best out of Best and Ronaldinho on the same team, given we are talking about their peaks? I mean just look at Dinho at Barca, no one would come close to Best in thinking he should be having more of the ball. That team literally had no issue whatsoever with Dinho doing whatever the feck he wanted, they knew if they want to win big it has to be through him. Here, if he starts dwelling on the ball that much that would very obviously leave Bestie on the sidelines for a major part of the game. What made George Best one of the greatest players ever? Dribbling!
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Two points. First, all the greatest players had their teams built around them - that is not a set of circumstances unique to Ronaldinho. It applies to almost every player on the park. Second, I disagree with the premise that a team can only have one player who dribbles well a lot. The current Barcelona side have 3 of them in their attack! And it works because they cover the full width of the park and have distinct roles to enable them to do that.
 
Gio said:
The main difference is how Berti Vogts will be able to tuck in and provide cover or pick up a man (as he so effectively did in the 1974 final). Whereas our attack keeps your defence strung wide right across the park, creating space and channels for Zico and Romario to do what they did best.
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It's not like Ronaldinho provides traditional width either. Gentile would have no trouble in always being present precisely where Dinho operates. Both Vogts and Gentile are turbo destroyers who won World Cups stopping greater threats than Dinho, so I wouldn't say that gives you any sort of an advantage.

Dinho is taking away more from the team than he is providing, it has to be said. I'll say someone like Stoichkov would elevate that team way more than Dinho would, you need a bit of selflessness, there.
 
Gio said:
Two points. First, all the greatest players had their teams built around them - that is not a set of circumstances unique to Ronaldinho. It applies to almost every player on the park. Second, I disagree with the premise that a team can only have one player who dribbles well a lot. The current Barcelona side have 3 of them in their attack! And it works because they cover the full width of the park and have distinct roles to enable them to do that.
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Which is why having Pele at the heart of it changes everything. He is THE one man proven to make it work together beautifully. It is why having him in this draft where teams were bound to be star studded was imperative. He will link this team beautifully - specially with proven combination with Garrincha. He worked with other stars next to him the whole career and still managed to outshine them himself, while at the same time never having anyone out of the action. It really is a unique genius on the pitch that can make that happen.

The current Barca is well different - the memo is very clear - you only touch the ball if Messi is done with it, so they still have a clear standout main man. There's no way Suarez or Neymar would take the ball if Messi needs it, no chance whatsoever.
 
Aldo said:
Gentile would have no trouble in always being present precisely where Dinho operates. Both Vogts and Gentile are turbo destroyers who won World Cups stopping greater threats than Dinho, so I wouldn't say that gives you any sort of an advantage.
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I rate Gentile quite highly, but his 'man-marking' performances in 1982 are mythologised. If we look at his man-marking of Zico in that great game, he spends most of it clattering into the back of the Brazilian, gets tied up in knots for the first goal, should've given away 2 penalties before half time, and by any reasonable standard of refereeing would have been sent off two or three times over. Clearly he got away with it but someone like Ronaldinho, with his unique brand of close control and invention, would draw countless fouls IMO.

 
My point simply here is that yes in these games you won't have just one man doing all the attacking but the biggest point is what can a player provide when he's not the one doing all the attacking? Someone like Dinho is of very little use to the team when he's not on the ball with the freedom of whatever he wants to do, which will happen long as you are thinking of getting Best into the game. There are loads of other wide attacking players inferior to Dinho in terms of talent but who bring a lot more to the team and provide the required balance as well as being a constant figure in the action regardless of whether they are the ones carrying out the attack.
 
Gio said:
I rate Gentile quite highly, but his 'man-marking' performances in 1982 are mythologised. If we look at his man-marking of Zico in that great game, he spends most of it clattering into the back of the Brazilian, gets tied up in knots for the first goal, should've given away 2 penalties before half time, and by any reasonable standard of refereeing would have been sent off two or three times over. Clearly he got away with it but someone like Ronaldinho, with his unique brand of close control and invention, would draw countless fouls IMO.
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And Vogts was equally lucky to get away with similar cynical fouls on Cruyff, it was the name of the game around then, and it is unfair to hold it against one and not the other.

FYI Berti, you touch the ball, not the shirt. :)

cruyff1.jpg
 
Physiocrat said:
This is probably heresy but of all the GOATs I've watched in old games Garrincha has been massively disappointing. He did little in both the semi and final in 58. I've started watching England Brazil in 62- at the stage of the second dog pitch invasion.

At present then I rate Best as head and shoulders above Garrincha.

To Gio- how deep will Zico play? My concern is that with Suarez as a DLP alongside Desially there could be gaps linking the play. If Zico plays a bit deeper it will limit his goal threat. That said I could be misunderstanding Suarez's role at Inter
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Garrincha is a bit hard to understand as if you just watch a game or two he will seem like a very wasteful player who happens to decide the game in the end. He's an artist, one of the greatest individuals in the history of football in every sense. He's sort a god of chaos, he doesn't need complex tactics or great penetrative passes to be at his best - you just have to pass him the ball at his feet. It doesn't matter if he has four defenders in front of him and no teammates in front of him, it is an alright opportunity for him - one he'll take every time it appears. One notable thing was the fear it struck the defenders who knew that whenever Garrincha received the ball he'd go for the kill and the opponents often doubled up on him instantly which opened space for others too.

He'll inevitably fail over, over and over through-out a game but equally inevitably he will sooner or later create opportunities for his team anyhow. In this role, as the superstar of the team, who receives balls frequently and who is allowed to fail repeatedly he is a legend and one of the greatest.

Brazil and Botafoga had Zagallo, a defensive winger, who was perfect in terms of creating balance for a team with Garrincha in that lop-sided 4-4-2/4-2-4.

In most setups I would have a player like Best above Garrincha as well and a few others as well.
 
Any criticism you're making of Ronaldinho is amplified twice over for the problems Garrincha brings when not on the ball. The question is one of balance and we all know that both Zico and Best were proper team players.
 
Gio said:
Any criticism you're making of Ronaldinho is amplified twice over for the problems Garrincha brings when not on the ball. The question is one of balance and we all know that both Zico and Best were proper team players.
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But Garrincha will be on the ball most of the game. There's no one in my team anywhere close to as demanding of the ball and who's game goes down as much as Dinho's does when he's not doing his thing. Whereas you need Best to be on the ball a whole lot of time for him to find an opening against Facchetti. I am not questioning Bestie's teamwork, but his greatest quality by far is dribbling.
 
Aldo said:
Ah just saw the scoreline. Early strong blows usually kill the games when it's this close. :(
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I think you were 4-0 down very quickly before Theon/Gio made their first post. You're catching up since the discussion started.
 
Aldo said:
But Garrincha will be on the ball most of the game. There's no one in my team anywhere close to as demanding of the ball and who's game goes down as much as Dinho's does when he's not doing his thing. Whereas you need Best to be on the ball a whole lot of time for him to find an opening against Facchetti. I am not questioning Bestie's teamwork, but his greatest quality by far is dribbling.
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Ronaldo loves to get on the ball and run at players. You'll likely get as much dribbling out of Garrincha and Ronaldo as we will out of Best and Ronaldinho. It's a non-issue to be frank.
 
Gio said:
Ronaldo loves to get on the ball and run at players. You'll likely get as much dribbling out of Garrincha and Ronaldo as we will out of Best and Ronaldinho. It's a non-issue to be frank.
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I'll just have to disagree here. Come on, you seriously cannot compare the time Dinho and Ronaldo took on the ball. Talking of whom,

Aldo said:
Desailly has to be around Pele, he cannot afford to be distracted by Ronaldo, and I would like to know how do you plan to stop Ronaldo with your CB duo, when he's running at full pelt with the ball or making a darting run playing at their shoulder and receive passes from Pele, Socrates, Garrincha and Bozsik.
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What about this?
 
Physiocrat said:
This is probably heresy but of all the GOATs I've watched in old games Garrincha has been massively disappointing. He did little in both the semi and final in 58. I've started watching England Brazil in 62- at the stage of the second dog pitch invasion.

At present then I rate Best as head and shoulders above Garrincha.

To Gio- how deep will Zico play? My concern is that with Suarez as a DLP alongside Desially there could be gaps linking the play. If Zico plays a bit deeper it will limit his goal threat. That said I could be misunderstanding Suarez's role at Inter
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Zico will play slightly deeper than the first round tie. We probably lose 10% of his very significant goal threat, but are compensated with a better link between midfield and attack and a clearer complementarity between Zico and the front three.
 
Aldo said:
What about this?
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The beauty of our defence is we have a proven trio. Beckenbauer and Schwarzenbeck won it all together for Bayern Munich and West Germany. Vogts was part of that with West Germany as well. Their dominance of the early-to-mid-1970s was ridiculous: Bundesliga: 1968–69, 1971–72, 1972–73, 1973–74; DFB-Pokal: 1966–67, 1968–69, 1970–71; European Cup: 1973–74, 1974–75, 1975–76; Intercontinental Cup: 1976; FIFA World Cup: 1974; UEFA European Football Championship: 1972.

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The big advantage with a proven defence, which is far more important at the back than elsewhere on the park, is that a gelled defence is absolutely crucial to its success. Aldo's defence is individually strong - no arguments there - but ours is completely proven together at the highest level. And it's all led by and designed around big Franz.
 
Yes Gio, but I would like to know the specific plan to deal with a player such as Ronaldo, given his unique style of play.

Do they have the athleticism to keep up with Ronaldo be it on the ball or him making a run on the counter? Remember your favourite Davids moment from 98? Who is capable of doing that here?

Ronaldo when running is a bad thing for any defense, given how complete a number 9 he is.

Second page of the thread, what is the greatest player of all time doing on the pitch? Who is stopping him and how?
 
Gio said:
The big advantage with a proven defence, which is far more important at the back than elsewhere on the park, is that a gelled defence is absolutely crucial to its success. Aldo's defence is individually strong - no arguments there - but ours is completely proven together at the highest level. And it's all led by and designed around big Franz.
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I don't disagree with that at all my friend, but that is not enough of an explanation on how to deal with Ronaldo.
 
Key points so far :

- Garrincha - with the freedom to be the star in the team and getting most of the ball, constantly running at Bobby Carlos who is also doing a 2v1 up front.

- My defense being much better equipped to deal with his threat than his is mine, stylistically there isn't any argument to this.

- Dinho's impact, on his own team's balance and teamwork, and how him and Best would not co-exist long as they wish to be at their absolute best.

- Pele being the genius head and shoulders above anyone else on the pitch, having an attack that is well balanced and has his favourite partner in Garrincha and how he will love to take this attack to the pitch, lead it, marshall it, and make it work beautifully.
 
Aldo said:
Yes Gio, but I would like to know the specific plan to deal with a player such as Ronaldo, given his unique style of play.

Do they have the athleticism to keep up with Ronaldo be it on the ball or him making a run on the counter? Remember your favourite Davids moment from 98? Who is capable of doing that here?

Ronaldo when running is a bad thing for any defense, given how complete a number 9 he is.

Second page of the thread, what is the greatest player of all time doing on the pitch? Who is stopping him and how?
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Is Ronaldo running with the ball or is that just Garrincha? :)

The great Davids recovery in the 1998 semi-final. :drool: I'm not sure that would be needed frankly because we don't have Frank de Boer and an underwhleming Jaap Stam shoring up our back line I'm afraid.

It's an interesting point though. Would Monti have the athleticism required to stop Zico from adding to his 500+ career goal tally? Would Monti or Bozsik be able to drop into sweep the defence and catch up with Romario for instance?
 
Aldo said:
Pele being the genius head and shoulders above anyone else on the pitch, having an attack that is well balanced and has his favourite partner in Garrincha and how he will love to take this attack to the pitch, lead it, marshall it, and make it work beautifully.
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Aldo said:
Based on nothing but talent and ability, I don't think Zico was hardly behind these two. Maradona was superior mentally and in leadership but I honestly can't separate Zico from Pele and Maradona from what they could do with the ball (based on my limited resources, of course).
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Gio said:
Is Ronaldo running with the ball or is that just Garrincha? :)

The great Davids recovery in the 1998 semi-final. :drool: I'm not sure that would be needed frankly because we don't have Frank de Boer and an underwhleming Jaap Stam shoring our back line I'm afraid.

It's an interesting point though. Would Monti have the athleticism required to stop Zico from adding to his 500+ career goal tally? Would Monti or Bozsik be able to drop into sweep the defence and catch up with Romario for instance?
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From what I have read Monti was pretty athletic, in terms of pace and stamina and wasn't easily bullied by anyone. His tales against Sindelar, who I believe wasn't far from Zico both style and quality was are there for us to see.

There's a reason there's not much to talk about the midfields and that is because they are dead even. Monti and Desailly can do their best but Pele and Zico won't have any of it most times. And similarly Bozsik and Suarez proved sort of defensive support but their key jobs lie in controlling the game from deep and launching attacks.

Who is the better deep lying playmaker between those two, in your opinion?
 
Aye which is why I have highlighted Pele's mental attributes there.

Stop taking advantage of my Zico love, I am very close to jumping ship. :D
 
Aldo said:
I don't disagree with that at all my friend, but that is not enough of an explanation on how to deal with Ronaldo.
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Sorry mate, following this on my phone but this is getting silly now because you've offered zilch in the way of explanation for how you defend - despite having the weaker back line and weaker protection from midfield.

The biggest question marks on the park - How do you plan to defend against a Ronaldinho/R Carlos 2 vs 1 against an outmatched Gentile?

How will Facchetti defend against Best whilst also being your sole source of width on the left flank?

How will Monti deal with Zico, an agile, mobile dribbling #10 who was scoring a goal a game at his peak?

How are do you stop the Kaiser dictating this game from defence - Beckenbauer was a sublime passer who marshalled the team from back to front, how are you going to curb his influence given the only ball winner in your team is an overstretched Monti?
 
I'll be back in a while, and I think I have put across most arguments anyway. With such popular names people have enough to go with to decide they winner at this point, may the best team win. :)
 
Won't lie, I did think I had a decent shot this time around after the first auction, and I am sure so did Gion as well, but this draw just sucks. I honestly don't want either team to lose in this match. :(
 
Aldo said:
Aye which is why I have highlighted Pele's mental attributes there.

Stop taking advantage of my Zico love, I am very close to jumping ship. :D
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The more I've watched of Zico, the closer I put him into that top tier.
Aldo said:
Won't lie, I did think I had a decent shot this time around after the first auction, and I am sure so did Gion as well, but this draw just sucks. I honestly don't want either team to lose in this match. :(
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A few teams strengthened well, but this was the draw we wanted to avoid as well.
 
Balu said:
Seriously? Who fixed the draw so that those two teams face each other so early in the draft? It's fecking ridiculous.
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That was one upside from group stages. Boring like watching paint dry, but you then followed a typical key with 1st vs. 2nd etc.

Awesome teams, will let it ride and read up later.

From what I gather, everyone is discussing the peripheral greats and the best player on the pitch is being taken for granted. A familiar feeling that... a lot of arguing over nothing while the white elephants dance right in front of your noses.
 
Aldo said:
From what I have read Monti was pretty athletic, in terms of pace and stamina and wasn't easily bullied by anyone. His tales against Sindelar, who I believe wasn't far from Zico both style and quality was are there for us to see.

There's a reason there's not much to talk about the midfields and that is because they are dead even. Monti and Desailly can do their best but Pele and Zico won't have any of it most times. And similarly Bozsik and Suarez proved sort of defensive support but their key jobs lie in controlling the game from deep and launching attacks.

Who is the better deep lying playmaker between those two, in your opinion?
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Very good point about Sindelar. He was a great dribbler and would do a brilliant job on Zico like he did against Sindelar who is one of the greats too.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Garrincha is a bit hard to understand as if you just watch a game or two he will seem like a very wasteful player who happens to decide the game in the end. He's an artist, one of the greatest individuals in the history of football in every sense. He's sort a god of chaos, he doesn't need complex tactics or great penetrative passes to be at his best - you just have to pass him the ball at his feet. It doesn't matter if he has four defenders in front of him and no teammates in front of him, it is an alright opportunity for him - one he'll take every time it appears. One notable thing was the fear it struck the defenders who knew that whenever Garrincha received the ball he'd go for the kill and the opponents often doubled up on him instantly which opened space for others too.

He'll inevitably fail over, over and over through-out a game but equally inevitably he will sooner or later create opportunities for his team anyhow. In this role, as the superstar of the team, who receives balls frequently and who is allowed to fail repeatedly he is a legend and one of the greatest.

Brazil and Botafoga had Zagallo, a defensive winger, who was perfect in terms of creating balance for a team with Garrincha in that lop-sided 4-4-2/4-2-4.

In most setups I would have a player like Best above Garrincha as well and a few others as well.
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Do you have any recommendations to see Garrincha at his best?
 
I'm leaning towards Aldo's team. A Zico, Suarez and Desailly midfield lacks balance. First things first Zico was as classic a classic 10 gets. So essentially that team isn't playing a 4-3-3 instead they are playing a 4-2-3-1 and for me the team that's playing a proper 4-3-3 will win the match as they'll dominate the ball in midfield and give the ridiculously gifted attackers to have more opportunities to have a go at the opposition defence. While Zico was a better player than Socrates he wasn't a better midfielder and the lanky, elegant player played deeper setting the tone and setting him(Zico) up to make the match winning plays. Dinho, Zico, Best and Law aren't getting the better of a Pele, Ronaldo, and Garrincha team if they have less of the ball.
 
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