The uncomfortable truth - United’s current finances.

I doubt the board will continue to allow dividends in the middle of splashing cash on a new stadium. INEOS is now the single largest shareholder if you count the Glazers individually.

But it is not majority shareholder. I doubt the board would allow the situation we have now, but here we are.

When the Glazers are gone is when I will believe anything might actually change, and even then, Ratcliffe is a penny pincher. It's how he's always operated. He isnt going to suddenly turn over a new leaf.

I do think if you took the Glazers out of the club it would be better, as Ratcliffe gets enough money elsewhere not to use the club as a cash cow, but while they're still involved, there is only one reason why
 
But it is not majority shareholder. I doubt the board would allow the situation we have now, but here we are.

When the Glazers are gone is when I will believe anything might actually change, and even then, Ratcliffe is a penny pincher. It's how he's always operated. He isnt going to suddenly turn over a new leaf.

I do think if you took the Glazers out of the club it would be better, as Ratcliffe gets enough money elsewhere not to use the club as a cash cow, but while they're still involved, there is only one reason why
I generally agree with you. The Glazer children did nothing but live off of Malcolm’s wealth. All they care about is the valuation of United and therefore the cash out.

Ratcliffe is a pragmatist and he built a very large company. He bought a stake in United because that’s what they were offering. I think he has every intention to continue to build the asset, and part of that is by winning trophies again. He will eventually make money from his stake in United, but he’s not naive enough to think that he won’t be investing major amounts of money to return United to at least some semblance of what it was during SAF’s reign.
 
The alternative to SJR wasn't Qatar running things, it was the Glazers running things. Nobody wants to pump billions into United. That's why we have INEOS. There is no magic wand. So we are going to have to earn our way out of it. And we can, but it's going to be a rough couple of years while we do that.
The Glazers administration was at its last legs. Its evident now more then ever with the club struggling even though Ineos bought a stake. If SJR didn't bailed them out then they would have sold sooner rather then later. Jim gave them a lifeline. He bought a minority stake so he can play fm and then he shifted 20 years of mistakes on the fans who are made to pay for the glazers and Ineos mistakes. The Bringing Manchester United back to Manchester sounds more like squeezing Manchester United out of the Manchester fans pockets

Meanwhile we are still paying interests on the SJR partners debt. But hey there's no magic wand
 
These debt issues are the reason why the Qatari bid more sense for now. They wanted to pay lesser value to the Glazers and would then have invested in the club. The INEOS offer basically helped the Glazers walk away with a lot of cash while retaining a majority stake (so they can double dip if the club is sold by Ineos), Ineos, instead, should have put more money into the club directly vs buying out Glazer. Even $500m of the billion they gave to the Glazers would have deleveraged us reducing the interest payments. Then we need to stop those dividends.
 
So businesman can't buy a healthy profitable club?

It's a football club. Not a race horse
I mean the interest payments. It should not be allowed that a club could use yearly income to pay for the owners interest payments.

Sure, you should be allowed to take dividends, but if you don’t have to money to buy a club, stay the f-word away.

It’s because of this we have all the leaching owners everywhere.
 
Is there an way the debt gets paid off in the future. Aren't the interest payments going up soon
I think if they go up and the figure is too high for comfort then something will be done through Ineos to pay it off in exchange for equity.

The bigger problems at United are the player wages to players who can't contribute to revenue and paying off transfer fees for the said players whilst needing further investment to replace them.

To strike a balance we are going to need to readjust our spending from £50m plus £200k/wk per major signing to around £30m plus £80k/wk per signing for about 3 seasons whilst kicking out the toxic contracts (Casemiro, Rashford, Mount and Shaw). A couple of academy graduates will be helpful right about now.
 
Forests top five earners are at 115,100,80,80,80. Their whole squad combined earns less then our top five.

It’s not about the salaries, it’s about finding the right players. Just let all the high earners leave and build a resonable wage structure.

Let’s hope that Ineos could pay of the whole billion in the years to come. But I guess a new stadium will just pile on that debt.

Remember that we were debt free before the Glazers. They have ruined this whole club, from the inside out. They should all be punished in some way.
 
The Glazers administration was at its last legs. Its evident now more then ever with the club struggling even though Ineos bought a stake. If SJR didn't bailed them out then they would have sold sooner rather then later. Jim gave them a lifeline. He bought a minority stake so he can play fm and then he shifted 20 years of mistakes on the fans who are made to pay for the glazers and Ineos mistakes. The Bringing Manchester United back to Manchester sounds more like squeezing Manchester United out of the Manchester fans pockets

Meanwhile we are still paying interests on the SJR partners debt. But hey there's no magic wand
All of this ^.

We can appreciate that Ineos has a tough hand to play while at the same time recognising that if it’s not willing or able to clear more debts and ease liquidity then it’s fair game to criticise them for trying to play the game in the first place.

It’s perfectly justifiable to acknowledge the Glazers as the cause of most problems while also highlighting Ineos for being, frankly, mean, petty, ineffective and thus far, ill-equipped.

As others here have said, they saw the financials and were fully informed before getting involved so I struggle with sympathy.

Coupled with the typical middle management punching down mindset of cost cutting to staff on low level salaries (plus many more of their measures) is shameful.

My optimistic side hopes this is being factored in to a longer term strategy for them to achieve full control and be able to finally, significantly, ease the financial situation.

That said… the early signs from Ineos are very poor and they’ve quickly eroded any goodwill.

Appreciate the info in this thread and intentions from the original posters.
 
I think if they go up and the figure is too high for comfort then something will be done through Ineos to pay it off in exchange for equity.

The bigger problems at United are the player wages to players who can't contribute to revenue and paying off transfer fees for the said players whilst needing further investment to replace them.

To strike a balance we are going to need to readjust our spending from £50m plus £200k/wk per major signing to around £30m plus £80k/wk per signing for about 3 seasons whilst kicking out the toxic contracts (Casemiro, Rashford, Mount and Shaw). A couple of academy graduates will be helpful right about now.
We haven't heard anything on the debt from Rat have we. And yes we're wasting millions on completely useless players, and we can't get rid of any of them.
 
The reality is that we are owned by billionaires who don't want to invest. Let's not pretend that there are no solutions.

The Glazers could clear the debt if they wanted to. It'd improve our PSR situation instantly and increase the value of the club. But they won't because they couldn't give a shit.

I still don't know what Ratcliff is doing here. He adds no value and has no plans to invest long term.

And no, we don't need a sugar daddy. United is a massive brand, if someone walks in, clears the debt, and injects money for a new stadium, it'd instantly increase the value of the club, and allow it to better compete. It'd be a great investment long term with great ROI.
 
The club can clear 50m per year in loan interest and if they simply remove the debt. The Glazers need to accept some responsibility for mismanagement and shift the loan to somewhere else in their portfolio. This can't be that difficult.
 
Only way to get out is the garnacho way. Play some youngsters and in the shit team they hopefully shine better. Sell them and rebuild...

If you think , what use are we getting from playing current set of players ? Their value only diminishes the more they play
 
The "uncomfortable truth" is that so long as the Glazers take money out of the club and we don't have an owner who will put money in, we're never going to compete.

The other "uncomfortable truth" is that the Glazers should be grateful for PSR, if not for that all other clubs would be significantly outspending us, we'd struggle to maintain even being a top-10 club and that would shine a bigger light on the Glazers.
 
The club can clear 50m per year in loan interest and if they simply remove the debt. The Glazers need to accept some responsibility for mismanagement and shift the loan to somewhere else in their portfolio. This can't be that difficult.
The problem is that they don't care if they've horribly mismanaged the club. All they care about is their own pockets and nothing else.

Fecking disgusting that the way they purchased the club is now barred. Should have been done from the get go and we wouldn't be in this shit show.
 
The "uncomfortable truth" is that so long as the Glazers take money out of the club and we don't have an owner who will put money in, we're never going to compete.

The other "uncomfortable truth" is that the Glazers should be grateful for PSR, if not for that all other clubs would be significantly outspending us, we'd struggle to maintain even being a top-10 club and that would shine a bigger light on the Glazers.
Good points. We are a shambles. Glazers have made us a shambles.
 
Other clubs have found ways to wriggle round it, I’m hoping we can. If we have a poor window this Jan and in the summer we’re truly in the shit.
 
Frankly we need another 10 threads like it. It really can’t be overstated.

There are too many knee jerking about INEOS, transfers, the manager, job cuts and cutbacks etc and not actually knowing or understanding why the club are doing what they are, which leads to conspiracies like Ratcliffe is only in it for the money, INEOS are worse than the Glazers (I mean, really?!!) or they just want to frack OT/Carrington and it is absurd and unhelpful in the extreme. You can’t have a rational conversation on those terms. People need to educate themselves, I’m just trying to help.
People are sick of experts, we don't want your 'facts', we want to react in a wildly emotional way based on things we like / do not like and we demand scapegoats NOW
 
Get rid of overpaid deadwood and introduce a salary cap of 150K.

Shaw, Casemiro, Rashford, Lindelöf, Eriksen, Antony all need to go. That would save our finances.
A salary cap would be ridiculous. Let’s hypothetically say that Mainoo becomes Iniesta 2.0 getting 50 assists a season and is dictating every game. Because of him we’ve won three CL’s and four PL titles in a row. He’s now valued at £300 million and his contract is expiring.

Every top club is offering him £400k+ a week yet we are only offering £150k. We then lose him because of this cap.

Rather than a cap, we need to just be far better at negotiating contracts. Handing out £200k+ contracts to players like Mount and Antony needs to stop.
 
Yes, the club is practically broke. Our financial situation is shit.

It's very difficult to drill that into people's heads. Even now you still hear posters go on about a squad rebuild this summer or "sell so and so for 50m to unlock 250m in PSR funds for new players".
I am sure we probably 'could' still do that...whether it's a good idea or not is another matter.

Clearly all it does is kick the can down the line...but at this point we're like some desperate Vegas degenerate punting borrowed money on the roulette wheel.
 
I guess what I dont get is... these news only became big once Ineos is here... wtf happened before that then? And even in last window we still spent loads.
 
Other clubs have found ways to wriggle round it, I’m hoping we can. If we have a poor window this Jan and in the summer we’re truly in the shit.
They don't want to wriggle round it, it's a convenient excuse to limit expenditure.
 
I guess what I dont get is... these news only became big once Ineos is here... wtf happened before that then? And even in last window we still spent loads.
The press don't care about Glazer bashing but it's a good stick with which the beat "evil capitalist and oil & gas baron Brexit Jim".
 
We haven't heard anything on the debt from Rat have we. And yes we're wasting millions on completely useless players, and we can't get rid of any of them.
This is the most damaging issue at United right now. If we were competitive at CL level nevermind winning the thing we would be grossing around a billion pounds, at that level the interest on the debt becomes immaterial as it would be less than 5% of turnover. Get the recruitment and the football right and the finances will automatically take care of themselves.
 
Probably for the best we're broke. It actually forces the club to behave responsibly rather than recklessly.

We'll see the back of the highest earners, aside from Bruno, and incomings will be offered more reasonable wages, hopefully heavily performance based. We'll not see anymore Antony type signings. We're less likely to be stuck with lazy wasters who are only here to ride the United gravy train.
 
Whilst the Glazers have absolutely fecked us up...Jim has made the situation 10 times worse.

Now, the Glazers will never leave, Jim won't put any more money in, our repayments are massive, interest will kill us, and we can't sell the players we don't want, so therefore we can't sign the players we need, so we'll stay shit.
 
A salary cap would be ridiculous. Let’s hypothetically say that Mainoo becomes Iniesta 2.0 getting 50 assists a season and is dictating every game. Because of him we’ve won three CL’s and four PL titles in a row. He’s now valued at £300 million and his contract is expiring.

Every top club is offering him £400k+ a week yet we are only offering £150k. We then lose him because of this cap.

Rather than a cap, we need to just be far better at negotiating contracts. Handing out £200k+ contracts to players like Mount and Antony needs to stop.
A cap of 150 given current circumstances. Obviously that cap would be raised if we win title after title.
 
Get rid of overpaid deadwood and introduce a salary cap of 150K.

Shaw, Casemiro, Rashford, Lindelöf, Eriksen, Antony all need to go. That would save our finances.

de Ligt would also need to go for the £150k cap.

I think it makes sense but means we'll miss out on most targets as the good players will get higher offers - not an excuse to continue making poor signings as other clubs do it on smaller budgets than ours. But given how poorly we work in the transfer market whilst being able to offer high wages as one of the main incentives to join the club, I can imagine us having more summers like Moyes' first in charge where we missed all our targets and then signed Fellaini as our marquee signing, after a clause to make him cheaper had just expired.

And a lot of our current players, if they progress and deserve a new contract will go elsewhere. One saving grace about this is that we've just sealed Amad at £120k so we wouldnt have to renegotiate for a couple of years. But some of the other young players if they really progress would likely leave
 
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Thought these two graphs from The Athletic's piece were illustrative of our issues.
 
Just clear the whole fecking stable already, they aint Thoroughbreds, they are bunch of donkeys. Like someone said Forest achieving something with portion of our wage bill. People pissed that we cant sell players due their wages while saying deserved when someone extends their contract with 3-5x increased wage, i mean...
 
Forests top five earners are at 115,100,80,80,80. Their whole squad combined earns less then our top five.

It’s not about the salaries, it’s about finding the right players. Just let all the high earners leave and build a resonable wage structure.

Let’s hope that Ineos could pay of the whole billion in the years to come. But I guess a new stadium will just pile on that debt.

Remember that we were debt free before the Glazers. They have ruined this whole club, from the inside out. They should all be punished in some way.

You think this fanbase would accept someone like Chris Wood starting for us?

We’re stuck in a situation similar to Barcelona. The money is not there yet the pressure of acting like a big club and showing up as one, and the fan expectations are still the same.

All options are terrible. We can do what you’re suggesting, build slowly and responsibly, and have many mediocre seasons along the way. That in itself is risky because revenues will go on a downward trend and there is no guarantee of how quickly they pick up when we’re good again. Our fanbase also has no appetite for that. I got slaughtered at some point for suggesting we should aim to be in the UCL consistently (haven’t been for 3 years in a row since the SAF days) and forget about league aspirations for a long time.

Or we can do some version of what Barcelona is doing. The average fan would like that more, but it’s incredibly risky and shortsighted.
 
JQR4869fT.jpg

bKEx7120CKo.jpg


Thought these two graphs from The Athletic's piece were illustrative of our issues.
The Glazers continuously taking dividends really screwed our cashflow. This is just horrible though, we really needed the Qatari bid not Ratcliffe to save us.
 
The Glazers continuously taking dividends really screwed our cashflow. This is just horrible though, we really needed the Qatari bid not Ratcliffe to save us.

Other than people’s daydreams, there was no evidence that the Qatari bid was serious, let alone that their plan was to wipe out the debt or invest heavily if they did buy the club.

It’s a moot point and we look pathetic regurgitating it, beyond the ethics of it, it was just a lot of talk and nothing serious.

The fix is to manage the club better and for fans to be honest with themselves about where we are, not to wait for a bailout.
 
I generally agree with you. The Glazer children did nothing but live off of Malcolm’s wealth. All they care about is the valuation of United and therefore the cash out.

Ratcliffe is a pragmatist and he built a very large company. He bought a stake in United because that’s what they were offering. I think he has every intention to continue to build the asset, and part of that is by winning trophies again. He will eventually make money from his stake in United, but he’s not naive enough to think that he won’t be investing major amounts of money to return United to at least some semblance of what it was during SAF’s reign.

I don't disagree with that, but there are caveats with it. Namely:

1) Ratcliffe being a pragmatist and knowing how to make a business profitable/successful is one thing, but it doesn't justify treating employees like gabage (which is another Ratcliffe trademark), ripping off pensioners and children, etc. These things are not going to be the difference between whether United become a succesful football team or not. They are just Ratcliffe applying his values as a human being to the latest scenario he has chosen to involve himself into. He has lost vastly more money on the mistakes he/INEOS have made sense taking the reigns at United, than he will ever gain back through actions like this. He just doesn't like giving money to people with less money than him.

2) While I don't disagree the intention would be to increase the stake in the club and eventually own it outright, there is in no way a guarantee that this will happen. Most people who I was debating Ratcliffe with at the time and since have sighted the fact he will eventually buy the club from the Glazers as to why he was the right option, but it isn't a fact that this will happen and there isn't really any logical reason why the Glazers would want to let him do this...an the process of doing it if it did happen could do an awful lot of damage...and then at the end we are still left with a man who's primary intention will always be that he cannot lose money. Yes he will invest as he has already proven, but investment will be with the intention of getting the money back, which brings me to the third point

3) There is nothing to indicate that Ineos/Ratcliffe actually know how to build a succesful football club, or know all the ins nd outs of how it even works. I have absolutely zero doubt that the intention from them is to make the club succesful, because even points 1 and 2 above require it to be, but Ratcliffe's success in his other business ventures don't really transfer over to running a football club...and the people he has brought in with him who supposedly do now how to do that, haven't done an especially great job of showing it. The Ineos reign so far has been a series of very big mistakes, some of which were clearly mistakes long before Ineos seemed to realise it. I also don't think relentlessly demoralising your staff is helpful when you are a competitive sports team. It might work in your factory, but that's because you just need people to turn up and do the minimum for the minimum in return, not perform at their peak ability constantly. I don't take much comfort/confidence from instances like Ratcliffe throwing his tos out of the pram because he didn't realise the rules don't let him "buy" playes from his own clubs. Or did but is just used to getting his own way anyway. Plenty of people have bought football clubs with the intention of making them succesul and effectively ruined them in the process.

I think what we needed ideally was a clean break from the Glazers so someone could come in, and even if they did make mistakes or didn't really know what they were doing, weren't then operating with one hand tied behind their back while trying to rectify things.

I also would have preferred someone who didn't see the fans/their own staff as something they can just bully and take the club's management issues out on. I don't see where that is going to stop and it really winds me up more than anything when people on here are dismissive about it. To me it is as important that I like the football club I support as it is where they are in the table. The Glazers already did a fair bit to alienate the club from the fans and community. We don't need someone else taking it 3 steps further..
 
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Other than people’s daydreams, there was no evidence that the Qatari bid was serious, let alone that their plan was to wipe out the debt or invest heavily if they did buy the club.

It’s a moot point and we look pathetic regurgitating it, beyond the ethics of it, it was just a lot of talk and nothing serious.

The fix is to manage the club better and for fans to be honest with themselves about where we are, not to wait for a bailout.
There was a lawsuit from Qatar showing that their bid was backed by Qatar National Bank which has $300B. Given how much money the state was spending to try to get Messi, WC, you think they wouldn't froth at the opportunity? The funds were never the issue. If anyone thinks Glazers were ACTUALLY going to sell the whole thing you're deluded. Yes some of the Glazers wanted to sell but the two cancer pricks didn't. They did what they always do, milk the club, if fans are pissed they cycle managers or insert new minority owners to placate the hate and keep it going and then spin whatever PR you want.

Real Facts:
1. If an owner cared even a little about their investment they wouldn't let their business be mismanaged this badly.

2. They hired and fired two experts in Ralf and Dan and spun random stories about why they suck which don't even make sense...

3. Great managers like LVG and Mourinho have called out the cancerous leadership mindset and culture. When a world class manager says their greatest success was getting your team 2nd that should be a damning statement.

4. Glazers/INEOS are quick to insert unqualified people leadership into roles and then complain that hey it's not our fault we did the right thing they fecked up. Like who in their right mind would bring on Moyes to replace SAF. Who would fire LVG after winning FA cup when he was rebuilding a squad full of kids. Why would you give a caretaker manager the job when the team statistically wasn't playing well but just got lucky. Why would you give a guy like Ten Hag control over transfers when he has had no qualifications to ever have build a squad.