The U18 general thread

[mav_9me]

 

[lysglimt]

Adam Lawrence who is under 18 coach and head of development for Man United 13-16 year old bracket has really done a great job and he’s now pushing players in the correct path to the Under 21’s, United have not won or been competitive at U21 development level since Warren Joyce was coach, what United need now is to elevate our under talent in stages, first stage U21 and we need a coach at this level that instals the same wining mentality from under 18 level, I thought RVN would be perfect for this but he’s too far along in his coaching career for this job, however RVP, another huge Dutch hero for United would be perfect for this development role.


We have so many talented under 18’s
At the very worst they should bring in some much needed revenue, however if we develop Chido, Amir, Shea, Harry Amass, James Scallion, F Macalister, Musa, Biancheri, Jack and Tyler Fletcher, at the right pace not throw them into the full men’s team asap, we’ll be more successful in the long term.

There are a few really good players among those you mention - but there are also a few that are not at that level

 

[lysglimt]

Imo - Kamason is a much better alternative as a wing-back. I have seen nothing in Mantato's defensive abiltiies to suggest he is a good wing-back.

 

[top1whoisman]

Imo - Kamason is a much better alternative as a wing-back. I have seen nothing in Mantato's defensive abiltiies to suggest he is a good wing-back.

The England manager doesn’t seem to have any doubts playing him as a full-back. Neither has Lawrence. It’s not a bad shout, he could definitely develop into a winger who could play as a WB too.

 

[Woziak]

There are a few really good players among those you mention - but there are also a few that are not at that level

There’s a few more I didn’t mention, my point is City are getting £20m for a youth GK and we can’t get sensible money for our young players who will not feature in the full team, we need to do more at U21 level and stop finishing mid table at U21 Level in PL development league, we need to start impr
Icing here first for the two reasons, generate more incoming revenues and supply more young players who are used to and more importantly expect to win?

We are currently 14th out of 26 teams, last year we were 12th out of 26 and in 22/23 season they were 9th from 14th. We are supposed to know for our wonderful youth teams how has this mediocrity been allowed when the under 18’s are developed in a wining culture only to be let down when they jump up to the under 21’s, we must also find a Warren Joyce type young coach.

 

[lysglimt]

There’s a few more I didn’t mention, my point is City are getting £20m for a youth GK and we can’t get sensible money for our young players who will not feature in the full team, we need to do more at U21 level and stop finishing mid table at U21 Level in PL development league, we need to start impr
Icing here first for the two reasons, generate more incoming revenues and supply more young players who are used to and more importantly expect to win?

We are currently 14th out of 26 teams, last year we were 12th out of 26 and in 22/23 season they were 9th from 14th. We are supposed to know for our wonderful youth teams how has this mediocrity been allowed when the under 18’s are developed in a wining culture only to be let down when they jump up to the under 21’s, we must also find a Warren Joyce type young coach.

It has nothing to do with mediocrity - it has to do with how we set up the team. Which players are available etc. Results doesn't really matter that much but look at this...the match against Sunderland.

Sunderland: Cameron 20, Jones 18, Crompton 20 (21 next month), Anderson 23, Lavery 18 (19 next month), Middlemass 20, Benette 20, Ba 21, Aouchiche 22, Ogunsuyi 17, Tutierov 19 - now that is an average age of almost exactly 20 years

United: Graczyk 21, Kamason 17 (18 next month), Kingdon 18 (19 this month), Ogunneye 18 (19 this month), Amass 17, Baumann 17, McAllister 18, Fletcher 17, Sharpe 18 (19 this month), Mather 18, Biancheri 20 - that is an average age of just above 18. Those 2 years make a huge difference at this level.

 

[Gungerz]

It has nothing to do with mediocrity - it has to do with how we set up the team. Which players are available etc. Results doesn't really matter that much but look at this...the match against Sunderland.

Sunderland: Cameron 20, Jones 18, Crompton 20 (21 next month), Anderson 23, Lavery 18 (19 next month), Middlemass 20, Benette 20, Ba 21, Aouchiche 22, Ogunsuyi 17, Tutierov 19 - now that is an average age of almost exactly 20 years

United: Graczyk 21, Kamason 17 (18 next month), Kingdon 18 (19 this month), Ogunneye 18 (19 this month), Amass 17, Baumann 17, McAllister 18, Fletcher 17, Sharpe 18 (19 this month), Mather 18, Biancheri 20 - that is an average age of just above 18. Those 2 years make a huge difference at this level.

That's also without mentioning that Bennette, Ba & Aouchiche all have significant senior experience. Combine that with the fact that Fletcher, Amass & Wheatley were all having their minutes managed because of first-team involvement and it was always going to be a difficult game.

 

[Woziak]

It has nothing to do with mediocrity - it has to do with how we set up the team. Which players are available etc. Results doesn't really matter that much but look at this...the match against Sunderland.

Sunderland: Cameron 20, Jones 18, Crompton 20 (21 next month), Anderson 23, Lavery 18 (19 next month), Middlemass 20, Benette 20, Ba 21, Aouchiche 22, Ogunsuyi 17, Tutierov 19 - now that is an average age of almost exactly 20 years

United: Graczyk 21, Kamason 17 (18 next month), Kingdon 18 (19 this month), Ogunneye 18 (19 this month), Amass 17, Baumann 17, McAllister 18, Fletcher 17, Sharpe 18 (19 this month), Mather 18, Biancheri 20 - that is an average age of just above 18. Those 2 years make a huge difference at this level.

I agree on this in principle that we are playing 18 year olds, potentially 1/2 years earlier than expected however I don’t have the same confidence in Travis Binion as I do in Adam Lawrence, where are the youngsters 1/2 years older, they should be playing on loan in lower league teams after having a year or two from 18-20 the under 21’s, wining week after week is a good habit to get into but I completely agree playing 18 year olds against 20/21 year olds can be a huge physical challenge.

 

[top1whoisman]

Everton 3-2 Liverpool

Everton scored on the 91st and 93rd minute to win the Merseyside derby.

 

[lysglimt]

It's quite obvious that this current split between the north and south is bad for the development of the players - there simply arent enough good teams to support 26 teams at the highest level.

United and City (and to a certain degree even Derby) should not be playing the likes of Stoke and Leeds (and this season even Liverpool) - City have now won 8 straight games, United 10 and with a total goal difference of +75 in those 18 games.

Would be much better to have 10 teams in north and south - and the 6 best teams play each other in a play-off home / away at the end of the season. Same in relegation - the 2 worst teams from each division and the 2 best from division 2 have a play-off. The 2 best teams in a round robin division get promoted/keep their place.

Higher quality, more to play for.

 

[Mickson]

It's quite obvious that this current split between the north and south is bad for the development of the players - there simply arent enough good teams to support 26 teams at the highest level.

United and City (and to a certain degree even Derby) should not be playing the likes of Stoke and Leeds (and this season even Liverpool) - City have now won 8 straight games, United 10 and with a total goal difference of +75 in those 18 games.

Would be much better to have 10 teams in north and south - and the 6 best teams play each other in a play-off home / away at the end of the season. Same in relegation - the 2 worst teams from each division and the 2 best from division 2 have a play-off. The 2 best teams in a round robin division get promoted/keep their place.

Higher quality, more to play for.

I agree. Or just a "Premier League" with the best teams in the country, and then a Championship with the likes of Leeds and Stoke. I can't see any reason why not.

 

[Gungerz]

I agree. Or just a "Premier League" with the best teams in the country, and then a Championship with the likes of Leeds and Stoke. I can't see any reason why not.

Wouldn't really work that because every age group is different in strength. This Leeds U18 team are terrible but their U16s are among the best in the country and comfortably beat ours twice recently.

 

[midou]

It has nothing to do with mediocrity - it has to do with how we set up the team. Which players are available etc. Results doesn't really matter that much but look at this...the match against Sunderland.

Sunderland: Cameron 20, Jones 18, Crompton 20 (21 next month), Anderson 23, Lavery 18 (19 next month), Middlemass 20, Benette 20, Ba 21, Aouchiche 22, Ogunsuyi 17, Tutierov 19 - now that is an average age of almost exactly 20 years

United: Graczyk 21, Kamason 17 (18 next month), Kingdon 18 (19 this month), Ogunneye 18 (19 this month), Amass 17, Baumann 17, McAllister 18, Fletcher 17, Sharpe 18 (19 this month), Mather 18, Biancheri 20 - that is an average age of just above 18. Those 2 years make a huge difference at this level.

I am sure Biancheri is 18, he was even playing for the U18s earlier in the season and is still one of our top scorers there.

 

[khoazany]

I am sure Biancheri is 18, he was even playing for the U18s earlier in the season and is still one of our top scorers there.

He mixed up the age of Mather and Biancheri that's it

 

[TwoSheds]

It's quite obvious that this current split between the north and south is bad for the development of the players - there simply arent enough good teams to support 26 teams at the highest level.

United and City (and to a certain degree even Derby) should not be playing the likes of Stoke and Leeds (and this season even Liverpool) - City have now won 8 straight games, United 10 and with a total goal difference of +75 in those 18 games.

Would be much better to have 10 teams in north and south - and the 6 best teams play each other in a play-off home / away at the end of the season. Same in relegation - the 2 worst teams from each division and the 2 best from division 2 have a play-off. The 2 best teams in a round robin division get promoted/keep their place.

Higher quality, more to play for.

It feels to me like there are finally enough games to go round with the 18s, 19s, 21s, cup competitions etc. I don't think it will hinder our lads' development too much to be playing some shite teams every now and again as long as they are getting challenged in other games. Can't imagine Real and Barca's youngsters get challenged every game and they don't generally turn out so bad.

 

[lysglimt]

It feels to me like there are finally enough games to go round with the 18s, 19s, 21s, cup competitions etc. I don't think it will hinder our lads' development too much to be playing some shite teams every now and again as long as they are getting challenged in other games. Can't imagine Real and Barca's youngsters get challenged every game and they don't generally turn out so bad.

You do know that Spanish teams have B-teams playing in Segunda B right ? They play against proper teams week in week out

 

[TwoSheds]

You do know that Spanish teams have B-teams playing in Segunda B right ? They play against proper teams week in week out

Not at U18 level they don't.

 

[Ace of Spades]

You do know that Spanish teams have B-teams playing in Segunda B right ? They play against proper teams week in week out

Well, that is not happening here, so we have to do the next best.

 

[lysglimt]

Not at U18 level they don't.

First of all - yes they do if they are good enough- especially at Barcelona where quite a few of them are good enough. But that is besides the point - my point is, to use todays United-team as an example.

We probably have 8-10 players at U18 level who shouldn't play for the U18s. Some have already moved up the U21 - but there are still quite a few left who are too good to play the majority of the U18 teams in the league (Obi Martin, Scanlon, Ibragimov, Munro, Kukonki, Mantato to name some)

It's impossible to move all of them up because we have a lot of decent players at U21-level who are older, better, more mentally mature or more physical (or a mix of those). And unless they either bypass those players, or those players join the first-team, get loaned out or are sold - they will stay at U18 as long as it's possible.

But as long as they have only player 10-12 matches a year against decent opposition, it will hinder their development. When our U21s play League 1 or League 2 first-teams - they probably learn more in 1 game against experienced opposition than they do in 5 games against U21-opposition.

And I see the point that some teams are good one season and crap the next - I do recall that awful Sunderland-team from 4-5 years ago which lost basically every game - but now they are among the best in div North. But they still need to find a way to solve this issue because its pointless to play plays you beat by 7-8-9 goals.

 

[TwoSheds]

First of all - yes they do if they are good enough- especially at Barcelona where quite a few of them are good enough. But that is besides the point - my point is, to use todays United-team as an example.

We probably have 8-10 players at U18 level who shouldn't play for the U18s. Some have already moved up the U21 - but there are still quite a few left who are too good to play the majority of the U18 teams in the league (Obi Martin, Scanlon, Ibragimov, Munro, Kukonki, Mantato to name some)

It's impossible to move all of them up because we have a lot of decent players at U21-level who are older, better, more mentally mature or more physical (or a mix of those). And unless they either bypass those players, or those players join the first-team, get loaned out or are sold - they will stay at U18 as long as it's possible.

But as long as they have only player 10-12 matches a year against decent opposition, it will hinder their development. When our U21s play League 1 or League 2 first-teams - they probably learn more in 1 game against experienced opposition than they do in 5 games against U21-opposition.

And I see the point that some teams are good one season and crap the next - I do recall that awful Sunderland-team from 4-5 years ago which lost basically every game - but now they are among the best in div North. But they still need to find a way to solve this issue because its pointless to play plays you beat by 7-8-9 goals.

It's definitely not pointless, you don't only learn when you lose. You learn about yourself and others in every type of situation, and getting used to winning is never a bad habit.

 

[lysglimt]

It's definitely not pointless, you don't only learn when you lose. You learn about yourself and others in every type of situation, and getting used to winning is never a bad habit.

I want us to win of course - but you learn a lot more from scoring the winner in the 90th minute than you do from beating teams 9-0

 

[top1whoisman]

FA Youth Cup results:

Preston 4-1 Liverpool
Hertford Town 3-4 Arsenal
Man City 1-0 Crystal Palace
Aston Villa 6-0 Accrington Stanley
Watford 2-1 Oxford United
Notts County 0-4 Fulham
Millwall 2(5)-2(4) Hull

 

[lysglimt]

FA Youth Cup results:

Preston 4-1 Liverpool
Hertford Town 3-4 Arsenal
Man City 1-0 Crystal Palace
Aston Villa 6-0 Accrington Stanley
Watford 2-1 Oxford United
Notts County 0-4 Fulham
Millwall 2(5)-2(4) Hull

Liverpool continuing their great start to the season at U18 level

 

[top1whoisman]

FA Youth Cup fourth round draw:


1 AFC Fylde v Portsmouth or Leeds United
2 AFC Bournemouth v Norwich City
3 Sheffield United v Derby County or Sunderland or Blackburn Rovers
4 Grimsby Town v Tottenham Hotspur
5 Leicester City or Chelsea v Merstham or Burgess Hill Town
6 Stoke City v West Bromwich Albion
7 Cardiff City v Bristol City
8 Manchester United or Coventry City v Preston North End
9 Fleetwood Town v Southampton
10 Arsenal v Queens Park Rangers
11 Watford v Luton Town or Crewe Alexandra
12 Newcastle United v Aston Villa
13 Plymouth Argyle v Lincoln City
14 Stevenage or Exeter City v Fulham
15 Everton v Wolverhampton Wanderers
16 Manchester City v Millwall

 

[Ekeke]

Imo - Kamason is a much better alternative as a wing-back. I have seen nothing in Mantato's defensive abiltiies to suggest he is a good wing-back.

Seen him play for England and he was fine, not a particularly good defender for a leftback but adequate for a wingback

 

[top1whoisman]

Seen him play for England and he was fine, not a particularly good defender for a leftback but adequate for a wingback

Agree. The fact that he’s been played as a full-back from a young age makes him a good prospect for a wing-back in Amorim’s system. It’s not like Amad is a great defender either.

 

[Ekeke]

Agree. The fact that he’s been played as a full-back from a young age makes him a good prospect for a wing-back in Amorim’s system. It’s not like Amad is a great defender either.

Yeah I think Mantato is our most perfect fit for a wingback from the youth and has a chance of being a bit like Quenda if we give him the chance early.

Plenty of experience playing on the right and I think linking up with Amad in the 10, if thats where he's staying, would cause a lot of trouble down that side

 

[top1whoisman]

A crazy stat. We've played 10 games in the league so far and we've conceded in only 2 of those. 8 clean sheets in 10 matches is mad.

Goals scored per game: 4.6
Goals conceded per game: 0.4

 

[khoazany]

A crazy stat. We've played 10 games in the league so far and we've conceded in only 2 of those. 8 clean sheets in 10 matches is mad.

Goals scored per game: 4.6
Goals conceded per game: 0.4

Sunderland is the only team so far that have really managed to threaten us defensively. Even against City whilst having a lot of possession, they didn't really create much clear cut chances against us if I remember correctly (I do expect them to be much more dangerous on the second leg though, with the new signings like McAidoo and Gorman have settled in).

Us being so well-drilled is the largest factor behind this. The likes of Armer has been really solid defensively too. To be fair with Liverpool being crap this year and we haven't played Derby yet, City and Sunderland are the only two decent/good teams that we have played.

 

[lysglimt]

Btw - think this is quite funny (even if they probably played a different side)

Rotherham - Preston 6-2 (League)
Preston - Liverpool 4-1 (FA Youth Cup)
Preston - Morecambe 1-5 (League)

 

[khoazany]

Btw - think this is quite funny (even if they probably played a different side)

Rotherham - Preston 6-2 (League)
Preston - Liverpool 4-1 (FA Youth Cup)
Preston - Morecambe 1-5 (League)

Liverpool looks like invested all their stocks on Ngumoha and Nyoni for this group and the rest's average quality is not there.

That's why I'm on our youth coaches side and not Wilcox on whatever argument they are having because at the end of the day the academy is a business with two roles: supplying players for the first team squad, and developing the rest so they can be sold with good profit and having a good career relative to their talent. As a spectator it's always good to watch the team winning and playing great football, dominating teams etc but it always a mean not an end. If Liverpool can get those two to be future first team players then I think their current group is already serving its role regardless of where the rest will end up.

 

[top1whoisman]

 

[inflikted]

First of all - yes they do if they are good enough- especially at Barcelona where quite a few of them are good enough. But that is besides the point - my point is, to use todays United-team as an example.

We probably have 8-10 players at U18 level who shouldn't play for the U18s. Some have already moved up the U21 - but there are still quite a few left who are too good to play the majority of the U18 teams in the league (Obi Martin, Scanlon, Ibragimov, Munro, Kukonki, Mantato to name some)

It's impossible to move all of them up because we have a lot of decent players at U21-level who are older, better, more mentally mature or more physical (or a mix of those). And unless they either bypass those players, or those players join the first-team, get loaned out or are sold - they will stay at U18 as long as it's possible.

But as long as they have only player 10-12 matches a year against decent opposition, it will hinder their development. When our U21s play League 1 or League 2 first-teams - they probably learn more in 1 game against experienced opposition than they do in 5 games against U21-opposition.

And I see the point that some teams are good one season and crap the next - I do recall that awful Sunderland-team from 4-5 years ago which lost basically every game - but now they are among the best in div North. But they still need to find a way to solve this issue because its pointless to play plays you beat by 7-8-9 goals.

Officially speaking, the top youth division in Spain is the Division Honor, which is regionally split and is essentially an U19 league - interestingly some of James Scanlon's international teammates currently play in the Division Honor including two at Cadiz. But many of the bigger teams in La Liga and the Segunda Division will operate B or even C teams which play lower down the pyramid - and as Spanish leagues are regionalised from the 3rd tier down, that's where you start to see semi-pro teams appear. So Real Madrid and Barcelona B players are up against a mixture of pro and semi-pro players, kind of like playing in the National League. The C teams play even lower down and essentially play at amateur level.

So in terms of physically adapting it helps, but as for standard of play that's debatable. Case in point, a young defender called Joachim Ostheider currently plays for Cadiz Juvenil (U19). In that team he faces the youth teams of Real Betis, Sevilla etc in the Andalusian group of the Division Honor, but earlier this month he also made his debut for Cadiz C, a senior team playing in the 6th tier of Spanish football, against Isla Cristina, an amateur side. The next week he returned to the Juvenil side to play Granada. Which opponent would you say he benefits more against?

 

[klayton88]

Do they play most home games outside of Carrington at Leigh sports village or is it quite rare? My 80 year old father has got more joy watching the u18s this year and we last went to a match together for the u18s youth cup final a few years back at OT. Is it pay on the door at Leigh sports village or tickets in advance? Would be easier for us to get to and less chaotic than OT, and likely more entertaining for a night at the football.

EDIT - I may be mistaken here as it's the 21s at Leigh isn't it and the 18s home games always at Carrington?

 

[limerickcitykid]

Do they play most home games outside of Carrington at Leigh sports village or is it quite rare? My 80 year old father has got more joy watching the u18s this year and we last went to a match together for the u18s youth cup final a few years back at OT. Is it pay on the door at Leigh sports village or tickets in advance? Would be easier for us to get to and less chaotic than OT, and likely more entertaining for a night at the football.

EDIT - I may be mistaken here as it's the 21s at Leigh isn't it and the 18s home games always at Carrington?

Yes most u18s are at Carrington and not open to fans. The FA Youth Cup matches will be played at Leigh or possibly elsewhere and open to fans.

U21s typically play at Leigh but have the occasional match behind closed doors at Carrington too

I believe it is only tickets in advance but you can buy online up to kick off so can just buy on your phone on the way there if you’re worried about last minute changes. Tickets are now £3, £1.50 for concessions.

 

[lysglimt]

Officially speaking, the top youth division in Spain is the Division Honor, which is regionally split and is essentially an U19 league - interestingly some of James Scanlon's international teammates currently play in the Division Honor including two at Cadiz. But many of the bigger teams in La Liga and the Segunda Division will operate B or even C teams which play lower down the pyramid - and as Spanish leagues are regionalised from the 3rd tier down, that's where you start to see semi-pro teams appear. So Real Madrid and Barcelona B players are up against a mixture of pro and semi-pro players, kind of like playing in the National League. The C teams play even lower down and essentially play at amateur level.

So in terms of physically adapting it helps, but as for standard of play that's debatable. Case in point, a young defender called Joachim Ostheider currently plays for Cadiz Juvenil (U19). In that team he faces the youth teams of Real Betis, Sevilla etc in the Andalusian group of the Division Honor, but earlier this month he also made his debut for Cadiz C, a senior team playing in the 6th tier of Spanish football, against Isla Cristina, an amateur side. The next week he returned to the Juvenil side to play Granada. Which opponent would you say he benefits more against?

We can debate a lot about this - but if you are 19-20 years old and play regularly for a reserve-side, then you won't develop at all.

 

[klayton88]

Yes most u18s are at Carrington and not open to fans. The FA Youth Cup matches will be played at Leigh or possibly elsewhere and open to fans.

U21s typically play at Leigh but have the occasional match behind closed doors at Carrington too

I believe it is only tickets in advance but you can buy online up to kick off so can just buy on your phone on the way there if you’re worried about last minute changes. Tickets are now £3, £1.50 for concessions.

Thanks so much for the info!

 

[Ekeke]

Officially speaking, the top youth division in Spain is the Division Honor, which is regionally split and is essentially an U19 league - interestingly some of James Scanlon's international teammates currently play in the Division Honor including two at Cadiz. But many of the bigger teams in La Liga and the Segunda Division will operate B or even C teams which play lower down the pyramid - and as Spanish leagues are regionalised from the 3rd tier down, that's where you start to see semi-pro teams appear. So Real Madrid and Barcelona B players are up against a mixture of pro and semi-pro players, kind of like playing in the National League. The C teams play even lower down and essentially play at amateur level.

So in terms of physically adapting it helps, but as for standard of play that's debatable. Case in point, a young defender called Joachim Ostheider currently plays for Cadiz Juvenil (U19). In that team he faces the youth teams of Real Betis, Sevilla etc in the Andalusian group of the Division Honor, but earlier this month he also made his debut for Cadiz C, a senior team playing in the 6th tier of Spanish football, against Isla Cristina, an amateur side. The next week he returned to the Juvenil side to play Granada. Which opponent would you say he benefits more against?

The answer is he will get experience from different things. In u19s football he is probably not going to face many seasoned physical strikers up front. Playing against adult bodies who know how to use them will help him adapt to first team football. Its why a loan to a championship or lower league team is good.

 

[TwoSheds]

The answer is he will get experience from different things. In u19s football he is probably not going to face many seasoned physical strikers up front. Playing against adult bodies who know how to use them will help him adapt to first team football. Its why a loan to a championship or lower league team is good.

Except that the Championship is also a very high standard of football whereas the amateur leagues in Spain may or may not be. I think a mix of experiences certainly doesn't do any harm but then these lads should be getting a bit of that experience of playing adults either in the cups or on loan at a certain point. I'm not sure one system is clearly leagues ahead of the other.

I've been quite critical of the way the youth leagues have worked in the past in the UK with not enough games and not enough variety of opposition, but I actually think the addition of the cup games against lower league sides and youth Champions League for example have definitely added something to the mix that really helps. Sometimes I think people forget that teenagers with studies to finish shouldn't actually be regularly traipsing down to Southampton or Plymouth and back every week as they are humans, and half formed ones at that.

 

[Big Andy]

This may have been asked elsewhere, but are the U18/U21 teams now playing the same formation as the first team?