The Trump Presidency - Part 2

langster said:
Meanwhile the damage to people's lives is continuing to mount up. How on earth can this be allowed to continue to happen? Of course now he's accused of being a member of MS-13 and of course the report is fake news and the reporter was making it up. Honestly, I can't see how the US can ever get back from this.


Click to expand...


Christ why did I read the replies.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Single issue voters.

The single issue being a geopolitical tragedy that doesn't actually impact most Americans. It's kind of sad - but what's really sad is people genuinely thought Trump would somehow be better for Palestinians.
Click to expand...
Gaza didn't decide the US elections.
 
Liberals will blame everyone else before looking at their own shortcomings, Dems didn't lose the elections because of Gaza, they lost the hearts and minds of the majority of the country, instead of any introspection they just lash out blame those who abhor the killing of women and children and blame minorities and leftists who don't know better, and it's why they will keep losing elections. Malcolm's summary of them is relevant to this day.

Instead of campaigning on 'oh the other guy will be a lot worse' they actually need to come up with ideas that will make people want to vote for them.
 
Fenômeno said:
Liberals will blame everyone else before looking at their own shortcomings, Dems didn't lose the elections because of Gaza, they lost the hearts and minds of the majority of the country, instead of any introspection they just lash out blame those who abhor the killing of women and children and blame minorities and leftists who don't know better, and it's why they will keep losing elections. Malcolm's summary of them is relevant to this day.

Instead of campaigning on 'oh the other guy will be a lot worse' they actually need to come up with ideas that will make people want to vote for them.
Click to expand...
Why do people throw that word around like its something dirty?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
To make that analogy work, one of them would have to continue to rape children and spend their weekends queer-bashing and lynching black people. Assuming both parties rape the exact same number of children then you’d be morally bankrupt to not vote for the other candidate.

It’s a shitty analogy, obviously, but the right thing to do was so fecking obvious whichever way you spin it.
Click to expand...
This is so dumb.
 
Fenômeno said:
Liberals will blame everyone else before looking at their own shortcomings, Dems didn't lose the elections because of Gaza, they lost the hearts and minds of the majority of the country, instead of any introspection they just lash out blame those who abhor the killing of women and children and blame minorities and leftists who don't know better, and it's why they will keep losing elections. Malcolm's summary of them is relevant to this day.

Instead of campaigning on 'oh the other guy will be a lot worse' they actually need to come up with ideas that will make people want to vote for them.
Click to expand...
Well, both things can be true. The Democrats need better messaging and to address the needs of the common American. But in this case the other guy was in fact so much worse that history will judge the people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Harris out of a sense of moral superiority.
 
golden_blunder said:
Again agreed, but a small number may have made a difference. But yeah they need to go back to the drawing board. Donald has proven that narrative was complete BS now anyway
Click to expand...
It wouldn't have though. Donald thrashed the Dems, the small amount wouldn't have made any difference in the last election. You are asking the wrong questions, you need to figure out why they couldn't win the vote of the majority of average Americans who mostly don't care about Gaza.
 
When the problem was folk opting not to vote for a corporate shill because the only viable alternative was a fascist then your democracy was very little more than a veneer anyway. Vote for the leg loppers, at least they're not the head choppers!
 
Jev said:
Well, both things can be true. The Democrats need better messaging and to address the needs of the common American. But in this case the other guy was in fact so much worse that history will judge the people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Harris out of a sense of moral superiority.
Click to expand...
On the other hand, you have to think how bad the Democrats are to lose against such a terrible candidate. Again, this circles back to blaming everyone else but themselves.
 
Fenômeno said:
It wouldn't have though. Donald thrashed the Dems, the small amount wouldn't have made any difference in the last election. You are asking the wrong questions, you need to figure out why they couldn't win the vote of the majority of average Americans who mostly don't care about Gaza.
Click to expand...
Look I do agree with the gist of what you’re saying.

For me the R are comfortable with what Trump is doing because it’s ticking a lot of stuff on their wishlists.

Which includes changing rules so it’s easier for corps to exploit mining, oil, different resources, the crypto world, everywhere were money can be made.

But none of that makes any significant change to the little people. Big money is wagging the dog.

It’s time a party did what they are actually there for, to work on behalf of the people, everyone no matter what colour a state may be
 
moses said:
Yeah, but I'd argue being shit across the board was a bigger factor.
Click to expand...
That was the major issue, yeah.

A lot of posters on Redcafe CE are left/liberal. So for us it makes sense to frame the choice as 'candidate A is much much better than candidate B on everything except on X issue.' But lots of voters don't think this way, and many felt candidate A was worse on practical matters like the economy, day-to-day life, etc. In that context, 'also bad on moral matters' is not where you want to be. But the interplay of these things can be tricky and hard to predict.
 
golden_blunder said:
Again agreed, but a small number may have made a difference. But yeah they need to go back to the drawing board. Donald has proven that narrative was complete BS now anyway
Click to expand...
Aye, I think a lot of Americans, and people in general, won't be swayed that much by outside factors unless it's an active war with boots on the ground. The Gaza factor is bigger on the caf than anywhere else it seems. And if it was what convinced people to abstain then it was most likely a tipping point rather than a reason to tun their backs on a fully functioning party.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
When the problem was folk opting not to vote for a corporate shill because the only viable alternative was a fascist then your democracy was very little more than a veneer anyway. Vote for the leg loppers, at least they're not the head choppers!
Click to expand...

This is also true, if there were real ideological differences and not just theatre and cant, people wouldn't be as easily swayed by one issue, if that's what happened.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
That was the major issue, yeah.

A lot of posters on Redcafe CE are left/liberal. So for us it makes sense to frame the choice as 'candidate A is much much better than candidate B on everything except on X issue.' But lots of voters don't think this way, and many felt candidate A was worse on practical matters like the economy, day-to-day life, etc. In that context, 'also bad on moral matters' is not where you want to be. But the interplay of these things can be tricky and hard to predict.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
moses said:
This is also true, if there were real ideological differences and not just theatre and cant, people wouldn't be as easily swayed by one issue, if that's what happened.
Click to expand...
Are you arguing there’s no real ideological differences between what Trump is doing and what Harris would have been doing?
 
Jev said:
Are you arguing there’s no real ideological differences between what Trump is doing and what Harris would have been doing?
Click to expand...

No.

There is a huge material difference to what is happening. On the other hand there was no real ideological difference until Trumpism/Project 25. Just versions of rampant centre right neoliberal capitalism.
 
moses said:
No.

There is a huge material difference to what is happening. On the other hand there was no real ideological difference until Trumpism/Project 25. Just versions of rampant centre right neoliberal capitalism.
Click to expand...
Yep. The dems are ideologically behind by a few years compared to the GOP. That’s about it.
 
Jev said:
Well, both things can be true. The Democrats need better messaging and to address the needs of the common American. But in this case the other guy was in fact so much worse that history will judge the people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Harris out of a sense of moral superiority.
Click to expand...
Agreed
 
Jev said:
But in this case the other guy was in fact so much worse that history will judge the people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Harris out of a sense of moral superiority.
Click to expand...
If it's re: Israel then I doubt it.

History mostly judges the politicians who engage in terrible acts and to a lesser extent the voters who actively supported it. The complaints about who 'could have prevented it' don't get much attention outside seriously partisan circles.
 
Last edited:
golden_blunder said:
Why do people throw that word around like its something dirty?
Click to expand...
If leftist/anarchist, it usually is a dirty word. Means the liberal class that will go along with the fascists rather than veer left. Basically what happened in the US and UK from 2015 on imo. Didn't take the chances they had. Now, neither Sanders nor Corbyn were perfect but the media did a job on both and their "own-side" media was by far the worst because you expect it from the right (each had problems from within the party, the DNC controversies and then the Labour militantcy against Corbyn period). These were liberals for the most part.

The history is one of liberals doing what is stated. Being the first to throw away their liberalism when a leftist movement comes along. See what liberals are doing on college campuses in the US (this was under Biden before Trump, so you cannot even blame Trump for things like Columbia).

Liberal Democracy is fine but liberalism is bankrupt without an economic agenda which, if progressive, has to come from "the left". That hasn't happened really.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Single issue voters.

The single issue being a geopolitical tragedy that doesn't actually impact most Americans. It's kind of sad - but what's really sad is people genuinely thought Trump would somehow be better for Palestinians.
Click to expand...
I think we've discussed this before. But many of Trump's more egregious acts don't impact most Americans, as he's going after minorities. So that's always a risky road to travel. I believe your position was that there is a difference between solidarity to your countrymen and to people who aren't. But not everyone agrees, plus the issue does affect Americans, Israel has even killed relatives of a former U.S. congressman.

There's a lot of talk in this thread about how Trump is "normalized". The most insane thing that is normalized in U.S. politics is this completely demented relationship to Israel, which grows more psychotic with each passing day. The harm mitigation arguments never offer any plausible way out of it, so they amount to treating pneumonia with Tylenol. The argument to let it go amounts to saying you should just get used to chronic pneumonia.
 
Can't the whole "not voting is the same as voting Trump" shtick just get it's own thread?

I come here to be outraged about the latest Donald Trump soundbites. Not to read through a moral debate about abstinance of voting.
 
Jev said:
Well, both things can be true. The Democrats need better messaging and to address the needs of the common American. But in this case the other guy was in fact so much worse that history will judge the people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Harris out of a sense of moral superiority.
Click to expand...
100%. And it's not only history that will judge those people, but also they will feel the effects of their naiveté probably more than anyone else.

All those condescending stuff and treating voters like idiots 'oh but they didn't know what they voted for, they had every right to think the economy will bloom under Trump', 'oh but they couldn't know it would be their family members that are deported', 'oh but it was a protest vote and sheer desperation' is very tiring and in fact so dismissive. These are adult people, not clueless children, living in the richest country in the world who voted for their future, they had access to all the information, made calculated decision and now rightly face the consequences. Treating those people like idiots who can't tell right from wrong and blaming it all on Democrats is quite embarrassing. Sure, Democrats needed better messaging (evergreen statement tbh), but it's not the weak Democrats messaging that made people vote against their own economic interest or vote for deportation of their neighbors and friends.

It's like if you fall for a scammer who offers you 100% return on investment in one year, you give him all his savings, he disappears with the money and then someone says "ok, but it's not your fault for being a naive idiot, if the real banks had better messaging it would all be different"
 
golden_blunder said:
Look I do agree with the gist of what you’re saying.

For me the R are comfortable with what Trump is doing because it’s ticking a lot of stuff on their wishlists.

Which includes changing rules so it’s easier for corps to exploit mining, oil, different resources, the crypto world, everywhere were money can be made.

But none of that makes any significant change to the little people. Big money is wagging the dog.

It’s time a party did what they are actually there for, to work on behalf of the people, everyone no matter what colour a state may be
Click to expand...
That's been happening for decades and not just in the US
 
moses said:
Aye, I think a lot of Americans, and people in general, won't be swayed that much by outside factors unless it's an active war with boots on the ground. The Gaza factor is bigger on the caf than anywhere else it seems. And if it was what convinced people to abstain then it was most likely a tipping point rather than a reason to tun their backs on a fully functioning party.
Click to expand...
This is true - most Americans have no idea where Gaza/Israel are

The main reason the Dems lost is not because of people voting for Trump but because they couldn't get people to vote for them, in 2020 Dems got over 51% of the total vote, in 2024 Trump got less than 50% of the total vote
 
Red in STL said:
This is true - most Americans have no idea where Gaza/Israel are

The main reason the Dems lost is not because of people voting for Trump but because they couldn't get people to vote for them, in 2020 Dems got over 51% of the total vote, in 2024 Trump got less than 50% of the total vote
Click to expand...

Hence the “I would never vote for Trump, I just couldn’t bring myself to vote for Harris” gang are on the hook for what’s happening right now.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hence the “I would never vote for Trump, I just couldn’t bring myself to vote for Harris” gang are on the hook for what’s happening right now.
Click to expand...

Yep, anyone who abstained from voting against Trump on 'principle' is a fecking idiot, and idiots like that are one of the biggest issues with democracy.

(For the record I fully believe in democracy, we just need to do it better)
 
moses said:
Yep, anyone who abstained from voting against Trump on 'principle' is a fecking idiot, and idiots like that are one of the biggest issues with democracy.

(For the record I fully believe in democracy, we just need to do it better)
Click to expand...
We have compulsory voting and it works really well. And you can always spoil (or not return) your ballot if you really are a conscientious abstainer. The only argument against is "I'm to lazy to vote" as it doesn't force you to actually vote, just turn up.
 
moses said:
Yep, anyone who abstained from voting against Trump on 'principle' is a fecking idiot, and idiots like that are one of the biggest issues with democracy.

(For the record I fully believe in democracy, we just need to do it better)
Click to expand...

Yup. And I do have sympathy for anyone trapped in a system where they’re forced to make a binary choice between two bad options. But you really have to be an adult about it and do your bit to make sure that the least bad option prevails. Failing to do that when one of those choices is so obviously terrible is pretty inexcusable.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yup. And I do have sympathy for anyone trapped in a system where they’re forced to make a binary choice between two bad options. But you really have to be an adult about it and do your bit to make sure that the least bad option prevails. Failing to do that when one of those choices is so obviously terrible is pretty inexcusable.
Click to expand...


Especially when an obvious fecknut enters the fray. I can forgive them for apathy previously. We had a more benign version of it here for years where your vote primarily decided which party sat on which side of the house wages and nothing of real consequence.
 
moses said:
Yep, anyone who abstained from voting against Trump on 'principle' is a fecking idiot, and idiots like that are one of the biggest issues with democracy.

(For the record I fully believe in democracy, we just need to do it better)
Click to expand...
People that are engaged politically otherwise, but refuse to vote out of whatever principle are a tiny subset of another tiny subset.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.