The Three Leagues Draft - 2nd SF

[Ecstatic]

Positioning of your trios : OK

UEFA CUP1993 FINAL- 2 legs - Moller played behind Vialli and Roberto Baggio
ECL 2005 FINAL - Dortmund 1-3 Juve - Kaka played behind Crespo and Schevchenko
ECL2014 FINAL - David Villa played with Diego Costa
EURO 1992 FINAL - Hassler played behind Klinsmann and Voller
WC 2006 FINAL: Totti as a support striker (Luca Toni)

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not disputing that he's got a serious defensive assignment in Modric, although that's made somewhat easier due to you tasking Modric with carrying out Pirlo-esque deep playmaking duties, reducing the ground Enrique has to cover. He's quite clearly still a serious goal threat from midfield though, and we've provided plenty of evidence of that.

I don't think Modric having playmaking duties makes his job easier, you'll need him back hence that will restrict his moving forward.

I find it real odd that Enrique, Baraja is supposed to work in this formation against Modric/Davids midfield and not look light. You have Enrique who is as Aldo would say bond to rush forward every time and Baraja who on other hand I don't think is mobile enough to cover that ground left by him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Positioning of your trios : OK

UEFA CUP1993 FINAL- 2 legs - Moller played behind Vialli and Roberto Baggio
ECL 2005 FINAL - Dortmund 1-3 Juve - Kaka played behind Crespo and Schevchenko
ECL2014 FINAL - David Villa played with Diego Costa
EURO 1992 FINAL - Hassler played behind Klinsmann and Voller
WC 2006 FINAL: Totti as a support striker (Luca Toni)

I don't recall Totti playing as a support striker role at Roma which is the definition of the draft. When VdS is taken into consideration I think it's fair to assume that Totti never played in that role for Roma and has to be singled out.

I find it real odd that people think Totti will work in that formation next to Moller of all people. But each to his opinion I guess..

 

[Ecstatic]

I don't recall Totti playing as a support striker role at Roma which is the definition of the draft. When VdS is taken into consideration I think it's fair to assume that Totti never played in that role for Roma and has to be singled out.

I find it real odd that people think Totti will work in that formation next to Moller of all people. But each to his opinion I guess..

Indeed, potential conflict of interests between Moller & Totti.

I don't know if Totti has sometimes played with the support of a pure #10 on the pitch.

 

[Enigma_87]

Indeed, potential conflict of interests between Moller & Totti.

I don't know if Totti has sometimes played with the support of a pure #10 on the pitch.

The closest you are looking at is what Gio mentioned with Fiore, but Fiore is not a classic #10 more of a winger(I agree he's kinda crap at it but played there a lot) or #8.

Even from the gifs that Skizzo posted you can see Totti's positioning and that he'd occupy that #10 or false 9 role at his best. Here he'll clash with Moller.

 

[Stobzilla]

Totti at his best (back in the 00/01 period of Roma imo) he played behind two main strikers, usually one of either Delvecchio/Montella partnering Batistuta so he played as an advanced midfielder if anything.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

A little bit on Moller and his compatibility with Totti:

Moller was a wonderful passer blessed with a great burst of acceleration and superb finishing off either foot. A pure attacking midfielder, his historical standing is probably hurt by the manner in which he remained skewed towards the 'impact player' side of the attacking midfield spectrum, rather than developing into a tempo-setting metronome who consistently controlled matches. The upside of this is that in contrast to other attacking midfielders in the Riquelme mould, he could still play a decisive role without the match having to flow through him. Throughout his career he has demonstrated the ability to thrive alongside other playmaking creative midfielders and attackers as diverse in style as Hassler, Roberto Baggio and Uwe Bein, and his appetite to break ahead of the play to get into goalscoring positions has remained a constant:

With Bein:

With Hassler:

With Baggio, against a Milan side containing Baresi, Maldini and Rijkaard:

taking advantage of the space left by Baggio who has dropped deep:

and returning the favour for this famous goal by Baggio:

This is not a static playmaker who will be demanding the ball to feet and competing with Totti, but rather a dynamic attacking midfielder who will share the creative burden but who is just as happy and effective breaking beyond the play to get on the end of chances. Totti will be in his element here with the brilliant movement of Luis Enrique, Klinsmann and Moller to pick out.

 

[Enigma_87]

This is not a static playmaker who will be demanding the ball to feet and competing with Totti, but rather a dynamic attacking midfielder who will share the creative burden but who is just as happy and effective breaking beyond the play to get on the end of chances. Totti will be in his element here with the brilliant movement of Luis Enrique, Klinsmann and Moller to pick out.

Nothing to take away from both of them but in a way you are describing Totti here as well.

I don't think it's even arguable that Totti ever played in that role as a supporting striker next to #10 at Roma which is the base on the discussion in the draft.

And for one in that SS role next to Klinsmann and Moller you are restricting him from time on the ball and space, which was one of his best qualities and the ability to drop into that zone you have put Moller in.

For me this is the key issue and lack of balance here in midfield and attack - you have Totti in a role he never played for Roma, added to IMO a new role next to Moller which I don't think fits him very well(of course you'll feel the opposite) and also Enrique as LCM where you are as well sacrificing his best attacking qualities making him work hard most of the time.

Baraja is not explosive enough to keep Davids on the counter and if Enrique loses the ball in his forward runs you'll be a lot vulnerable on the break.

 

[Enigma_87]

Totti at his best (back in the 00/01 period of Roma imo) he played behind two main strikers, usually one of either Delvecchio/Montella partnering Batistuta so he played as an advanced midfielder if anything.

exactly, or a false 9 5-6 years later with 2 wide options with the ability to drop in the #10 zone.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I don't think it's even arguable that Totti ever played in that role as a supporting striker next to #10 at Roma which is the base on the discussion in the draft.

He started his Roma career doing just that, partnering the likes of Delvecchio and Balbo with the great Giuseppe Giannini at No. 10. Examples of line ups include:

ROMA - BRESCIA 3-0
Roma, Stadio Olimpico
sabato 15 aprile
ore: 16:00

Tabellino partita:
ROMA: Cervone, Aldair (37'st Annoni), Lanna, Statuto, Petruzzi, Piacentini, Moriero, Cappioli (27'st Carboni), Balbo, Giannini, Totti.
In Panchina: Lorieri, Colonnese, Maini.
Allenatore: Mazzone.

BRESCIA: Gamberini, Adani, Mezzanotti, Piovanelli, Baronchelli, Bonometti, Schenardi (20'st Bernardini), Marangon (14'st Corini), Neri, Giunta, Gallo.
In Panchina: Ballotta, Baronio, Baldini.
Allenatore: Moro.

ROMA - INTERNAZIONALE 3-1
Roma, Stadio Olimpico
12 febbraio 1995
ore: 15:00

ROMA: Cervone, Annoni, Lanna, Statuto (41'st Piacentini), Aldair, Carboni, Cappioli, Thern, Balbo, Giannini, Totti.
In Panchina: Lorieri, Benedetti, Colonnese, Maini.
Allenatore: Mazzone.

INTER: Pagliuca, Bergomi, A. Paganin (4' Orlandini), Berti, Festa, M. Paganin, Seno, Jonk, Delvecchio (18'st Pancev), Bergkamp, Fontolan.
In Panchina: Mondini, Conte, Bianchi.
Allenatore: Bianchi.

He was man of the match in the Euro 2000 final in a similar set up as he was beginning to enter his prime:

and here he's playing with Moller who is better than Fiore and has a proven record of thriving alongside other playmaking attackers and midfielders.

 

[Enigma_87]

He started his Roma career doing just that, partnering the likes of Delvecchio and Balbo with the great Giuseppe Giannini at No. 10. Examples of line ups include:

ROMA - BRESCIA 3-0
Roma, Stadio Olimpico
sabato 15 aprile
ore: 16:00

Tabellino partita:
ROMA: Cervone, Aldair (37'st Annoni), Lanna, Statuto, Petruzzi, Piacentini, Moriero, Cappioli (27'st Carboni), Balbo, Giannini, Totti.
In Panchina: Lorieri, Colonnese, Maini.
Allenatore: Mazzone.

BRESCIA: Gamberini, Adani, Mezzanotti, Piovanelli, Baronchelli, Bonometti, Schenardi (20'st Bernardini), Marangon (14'st Corini), Neri, Giunta, Gallo.
In Panchina: Ballotta, Baronio, Baldini.
Allenatore: Moro.

ROMA - INTERNAZIONALE 3-1
Roma, Stadio Olimpico
12 febbraio 1995
ore: 15:00

ROMA: Cervone, Annoni, Lanna, Statuto (41'st Piacentini), Aldair, Carboni, Cappioli, Thern, Balbo, Giannini, Totti.
In Panchina: Lorieri, Benedetti, Colonnese, Maini.
Allenatore: Mazzone.

INTER: Pagliuca, Bergomi, A. Paganin (4' Orlandini), Berti, Festa, M. Paganin, Seno, Jonk, Delvecchio (18'st Pancev), Bergkamp, Fontolan.
In Panchina: Mondini, Conte, Bianchi.
Allenatore: Bianchi.

He was man of the match in the Euro 2000 final in a similar set up as he was beginning to enter his prime:

and here he's playing with Moller who is better than Fiore and has a proven record of thriving alongside other playmaking attackers and midfielders.

Cmoon mate. 95? He was 19 back then and 3 years away from his first cap for Italy. He had like handful of games during that time and was still getting into the first team.

Fiore is far from what Moller is and he's not the #10 you are looking here in Moller. As well I don't think the Italy set up in that 2000 EURO is relevant in this draft.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong if you can dig up some examples of peak Totti playing in that role next to a #10 for Roma in relevance to the draft, but I don't recall any of those.

If you want to use 19 years old Totti then it's another matter

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cmoon mate. 95? He was 19 back then and 3 years away from his first cap for Italy. He had like handful of games during that time and was still getting into the first team.

Fiore is far from what Moller is and he's not the #10 you are looking here in Moller. As well I don't think the Italy set up in that 2000 EURO is relevant in this draft.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong if you can dig up some examples of peak Totti playing in that role next to a #10 for Roma in relevance to the draft, but I don't recall any of those.

If you want to use 19 years old Totti then it's another matter

This is what you said initially

I don't think it's even arguable that Totti ever played in that role as a supporting striker next to #10 at Roma which is the base on the discussion in the draft.

so I'd venture to say you've already been proven wrong . In the 1994-95 and 95-96 seasons Totti made 49 league appearances and Giannini made 48 league appearances, so its hardly a 'handful of games'. Totti's Euro 2000 role is relelvant insofar as it shows he can play in the set up required of him here. It would be irrelevant if he wasn't a Serie A player at that stage of his career, or if he was clearly better at international level than at club level for some reason, none of which applies in his case. He's quite clearly the same player IMO. And Moller is simply better than Fiore, and a better foil for Totti.

 

[harms]

It was a hard choice, but I decided to go with Enigma in the end.
I don't think that Chiellini (also a question of his quality), Ruggeri and Hierro are ideally suited to face incredibly pacey and mobile trio of Shevchenco, Villa and Kaka, plus, despite all the arguing from Skizzo/Pat, I don't think that you're getting the best out of Totti with Moeller here. I also prefer Enigma's midfield. Those points outweighed my questions to Enigma's team - the most noticeable flaw was his goalkeeper's credentials

 

[Enigma_87]

This is what you said initially



so I'd venture to say you've already been proven wrong . In the 1994-95 and 95-96 seasons Totti made 49 league appearances and Giannini made 48 league appearances, so its hardly a 'handful of games'. Totti's Euro 2000 role is relelvant insofar as it shows he can play in the set up required of him here. It would be irrelevant if he wasn't a Serie A player at that stage of his career, or if he was clearly better at international level than at club level for some reason, none of which applies in his case. He's quite clearly the same player IMO. And Moller is simply better than Fiore, and a better foil for Totti.

So you guys are lining up 19 years old Totti in this game? If that's the case I'm ok with that. Not sure whether that would work better as in that time he was playing in that position he had how many games for Roma? 20-30 in total?

Moller and Fiore are really not even close to each other in terms of playing style and where they usually played. I don't think that and the EURO point is relevant in a 20 or so Seria A career for Totti.(and to be honest I don't see that working either if Moller was Italian)

I'm sure both of you won't believe after the game that this partnership will work well, it's just due to the BuLi restriction and Basler generally will lower the quality in your midfield. Both operate in so strikingly similar zones that it's hard to imagine it will work.

Just look at the gifs even Skizzo provided to see especially in the last three that 10-15m around Totti who is central, there are no players in that zone and his options are wide.

#10 behind 2 strikers or 4-3-3 centrally with 2 wide forwards each side - that's the best roles Totti can play in - here we have neither.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Wow, that France side. Replace Dugarry with a better striker and Barthez with a better keeper and that's a brilliant side for any all time draft.

 

[Enigma_87]

Most likely I won't be available in the next couple of hours so I'll just summarize along with the discussion why I think we should win this one(as well with points that were concerned in the last rounds):

• Advantage in the central midfield area - Modric/Davids is an excellent partnership that compliments very well. They are up against Enrique and Baraja and have an edge both at playmaking ability(Modric > Enrique/Baraja) and in engine/covering/tenacity and grit (Davids > Baraja/Enrique)
• Cafu/Marcelo vs Lizarazu/Zanetti - while I think Cafu is on par with Zanetti or thereabouts, he's better getting forward and regaining position, providing us with more width and better attacking options at the right flank. On the other side Marcelo is much better going forward than Lizarazu, while the latter is better defensively, but having in mind neither are facing a winger in this game I'd say providing better attacking option is the bigger priority here. Having Cafu linking up Kaka and finding Sheva in the box is also a nice bonus in tha area.
  
• Our front three - as harms stated we have Villa and Sheva who will press S/P center back duo and neither is that well rounded in terms of technique or in other words(they are not what you call ball playing defenders). Besides that highly mobile, fast, and excellent finishers, that IMO compliment very well(Sheva/Kaka proven one).
• Moller/Totti pairing - just to reiterate - I don't see that working well - they operate in the same zone and with that formation S/P best player is somehow restricted in a role that he didn't play at his peak at Roma.
• Luis Enrique in midfield - sure he's versatile but will go forward and leave spaces which IMO Baraja won't be able to cover by himself with Kaka occupying Hierro.
• Marcelo defensive acumen - without a proper winger and diminished wide danger I can't see that being a liability or being exploited, while in the same time we get the best out of him going forward.
• VdS - topic beaten to death - but to reiterate we're not after the best possible version of VDS but the solid one despite all the flack he got at Juve - conceding less goals in 2 seasons than any other keeper in the league. Sure we're not getting the best out of him, but quick hands and excellent saves is something you could see in those days.

Good luck all and may the best team win.

 

[Skizzo]

Well we felt we've shown Totti and Moller can function without stepping on each other, but clearly that hasn't gained much traction. So we're going to mix things up a little for the end. Moller coming off, and the enigmatic (see what i did there?) Super Mario Basler coming on.

Hierro and Baraja sitting deep in midfield, in front of a compact back line. Limiting the space in behind for Shevchenko and Villa to run in, and limiting space in the hole for Kaka.

Luis Enrique moving wide left, with Basler wide right. Both will look to stretch the defense, exploit the space left by the attacking Cafu and Marcelo, and get balls into the box for Klinsmann.

Totti back in his best position, both to create, and to score goals. Playing behind a powerful runner, with two mobile goal scoring wingers, Totti will have options galore.

As for the midfield, yes, we now have a number light, but with condensing the space for the front 3, and Davids and Modric not having a huge goal scoring threat, it a risk we'll take to sit deeper and cut off that space. Hierro and Baraja are two physical, tough tackling players who have played in that deeper midfield role to shield.



@Aldo if you could update please

 

[Skizzo]

Ill be on and off, but to address the main points that I've encountered so far.

• VDS is still the worst player on the field, in what remains a key position. It may not hold much weight in the draft, but the top of page 2 shows why VDS is more of a liability than anyone else on the field.
• Totti in his best position, with runners around him, and a mobile, powerful striker ahead of him to pick out, and create space with his movement.
• Luis Enrique and Basler, up against two attacking full backs. Both will look to exploit the space left behind, causing that defense to stretch themselves out to cover. Lucio to Marcelo especially.
• To avoid that, they can choose to attack less. Without the full backs able to attack as much, the opposition threat is corralled centrally, and much less of a threat.
• Hierro's passing from deep will be able to pick out the runs of the front 3, or find Totti's feet, setting us back on the front foot before Modric/Davids/Marcelo/Cafu get back to set up in formation.
• Every video we highlighted of Enrique, Totti, and Klinsmann has already shown their movement and ways to find space in between defenders.
• VDS is still the worst player on the field with this criteria in mind.

 

[harms]

I think you should've also mentioned that VDS is still the worst player on the field.

 

[Skizzo]

I think you should've also mentioned that VDS is still the worst player on the field.

Damn, I thought I covered that already

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Odd what people consider significant here, or more precisely what they consider most significant.

For me the Totti/Möller combo is left-field but plausible based on what the managers' plan actually was: Totti and Möller were supposed to play off each other, interchanging positions, etc. If that works, there's no danger of them stepping on each other's toes. It seemed perfectly clear that Möller wasn't supposed to operate as a generic No10. The latter would've been awkward, but since it wasn't actually the case – well, there you are.

Oh well, all moot now.

 

[Skizzo]

Odd what people consider significant here, or more precisely what they consider most significant.

For me the Totti/Möller combo is left-field but plausible based on what the managers' plan actually was: Totti and Möller were supposed to play off each other, interchanging positions, etc. If that works, there's no danger of them stepping on each other's toes. It seemed perfectly clear that Möller wasn't supposed to operate as a generic No10. The latter would've been awkward, but since it wasn't actually the case – well, there you are.

Oh well, all moot now.

I understand Enigma being purposely obtuse to the points made, as its in his best interest to question it. Although how you question that with VDS there, I'll never know, but I digress.

We explained countless times, on every page, how they would work, why they would work, and shown videos from various phases of play, from various games, to show such. Nothing to show in counter to show why it WOULDN'T work, makes it an exercise in futility.

It's the draft version of the opposition manager putting his fingers in his ears and closing his eyes.

 

[Skizzo]

and just to try and get some traction, its about that time again. Previous managers/voters, come say hi and note the change and notes above.

@Donaldo @Annahnomoss @Downcast @The Stain @Šjor Bepo @MJJ @Mani @Invictus @crappycraperson @mazhar13

Off to get some breakfast now, ill be back.

 

[harms]

For me the Totti/Möller combo is left-field but plausible based on what the managers' plan actually was: Totti and Möller were supposed to play off each other, interchanging positions, etc. If that works, there's no danger of them stepping on each other's toes. It seemed perfectly clear that Möller wasn't supposed to operate as a generic No10.

That's the point - if that works. You have to somehow convince everybody that probably the least objective parameter in football - chemistry between the two players - is here. I don't think it is, so I remain unconvinced. Even though I have no idea how to convince myself, or others - it's exactly like the chemistry itself - it's either there or it's not, I either believe in it or I don't and hardly any argument will convince me otherwise.

 

[Skizzo]

That's the point - if that works. You have to somehow convince everybody that probably the least objective parameter in football - chemistry between the two players - is here. I don't think it is, so I remain unconvinced. Even though I have no idea how to convince myself, or others - it's exactly like the chemistry itself - it's either there or it's not, I either believe in it or I don't and hardly any argument will convince me otherwise.

Well its gone now. Totti is back running the show, even though he still was before Enrique is off to maraud on the wing. And VDS is still in goal

 

[harms]

Well its gone now. Totti is back running the show, even though he still was before Enrique is off to maraud on the wing. And VDS is still in goal

Yeah, I saw it. Interesting change - and probably for the best, but it's too late in the game and the difference in quality of your team's performance is too marginal for me to change my vote, sorry! There are still a lot of undecided voters here though.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I understand Enigma being purposely obtuse to the points made, as its in his best interest to question it. Although how you question that with VDS there, I'll never know, but I digress.

We explained countless times, on every page, how they would work, why they would work, and shown videos from various phases of play, from various games, to show such. Nothing to show in counter to show why it WOULDN'T work, makes it an exercise in futility.

It's the draft version of the opposition manager putting his fingers in his ears and closing his eyes.

A typical job for my proposed moderator, that: Demand an answer to that very question: Why exactly would it not work, or not work to a sufficient extent? Forget about proven combos and generic roles – look at the actual argument offered, and at the particular traits/skill sets of the players in question, and then undermine the thing.

For me the “proven” thing has always been a matter of personal preference, almost, when it comes to these drafts: You can choose to put a lot of emphasis on it – or you can choose to ignore it altogether (the latter being my natural inclination). Both are legitimate, as far as I'm concerned. But one thing should not be in doubt: It says nowhere that you have to field proven combos, or that you have to field players in roles they played in historically (to whatever degree).

The focus should be on what the manager claims will work/happen, based on his particular game plan. What is generically and/or historically true may be looked at to help undermine the arguments, but it can't be cited as some sort of irrefutable proof that a hypothetical/fantasy scenario would not unfold. The latter makes no sense whatsoever, and all it undermines is the very spirit of these little games: Use the evidence to demonstrate what sort of player X was, not to demonstrate what roles he played: The latter is irrelevant if the manager goes for an experimental set-up.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

That's the point - if that works. You have to somehow convince everybody that probably the least objective parameter in football - chemistry between the two players - is here. I don't think it is, so I remain unconvinced. Even though I have no idea how to convince myself, or others - it's exactly like the chemistry itself - it's either there or it's not, I either believe in it or I don't and hardly any argument will convince me otherwise.

Yes, obviously – but that's as fair as it gets: The manager proposes something, an unproven combination, and argues that it would work based on what sort of players he's fielding, and people like you and me then consider this. Would it work?

It's not solely about intangibles and chemistry, though. We know a lot about how these players liked to move, what spaces they occupied, how skilled they were at interchanging with other players, what sort of particular abilities they had on and off the ball – and all of that is tangible enough. Partly about chemistry, yes, as any partnership or combo will be – but there are plenty of tangibles that can be considered too.

 

[Skizzo]

@Chesterlestreet exactly. Even more so since last game Aldo's claims about Lucio playing a certain way was completely ignored by just saying "he's instructed not to do this".

The other question of "how do you actually plan to stop Moller and Totti linking up?" Was completely ignored too...in favor of just saying it won't work over and over again.

We did research on VDS and why he didn't deserve to get off without criticism.

We did research and showed Totti and Moller in various matches to show their game styles and movement and why they would work.

The opposition showed a few pictures of Milan, and a picture of Real Madrid and said SEE?! Even though it showed his main player in Kaka in a different set up than Davids and Modric played in, highlighted by his other picture, with no mention of how Villa was planned to work with Kaka and a deep playmaker in Modric.

But anyway, moderator questions sound the bees knees

 

[harms]

By the way, I found the Modric - Pirlo and Kaka comparability debate quite pointless and very similar to Totti - Moeller in a way that one side didn't put out any valuable claims on why it wouldn't work.

And yet, after all, as far as manager arguing goes, I'd give the win to Skizzo/Pat - too bad that we choose what side we feel will win and do not award managers for doing a great job - maybe it will change in the upcoming drafts?

 

[Ecstatic]

I was asked to vote so I want penalties

 

[Skizzo]

By the way, I found the Modric - Pirlo and Kaka comparability debate quite pointless and very similar to Totti - Moeller in a way that one side didn't put out any valuable claims on why it wouldn't work.

And yet, after all, as far as manager arguing goes, I'd give the win to Skizzo/Pat - too bad that we choose what side we feel will win and do not award managers for doing a great job - maybe it will change in the upcoming drafts?

Managers input should have some weight in the votes. Not saying you should change it (even though you should ) but on one hand here, we had a manager prepare for the wrong line up initially and sub straight away, and then make arguments against the opposition that undermines his own team. Plus with VDS in goal

The other has done lots of research and shown how their players would work, with no proof on how it wouldn't.

The work put in previous drafts and matches by people like Sjor, Joga, Aldo, Balu, yourself, etc should all count for something because a manager putting more work into knowing, understanding and prepping his team should count for something after all.

Don't know how that would translate into votes or draft mechanics though.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

By the way, I found the Modric - Pirlo and Kaka comparability debate quite pointless and very similar to Totti - Moeller in a way that one side didn't put out any valuable claims on why it wouldn't work.

And yet, after all, as far as manager arguing goes, I'd give the win to Skizzo/Pat - too bad that we choose what side we feel will win and do not award managers for doing a great job - maybe it will change in the upcoming drafts?

It was pointless enough, I agree. But it was also a legitimate enough point to debate, given that the managers themselves suggested some sort of Milan blueprint for their own setup. That was the issue for me, at least, the combo itself was less of an issue.

As for the part in bold, I've been thinking along those lines for a long time. It's tricky, though. How do you reward a manager for arguing his case well – and who decides what is good and bad?

One way to go would be to simply instruct the voters to take the quality of the arguments into consideration - but, of course, there'd be no way of ensuring that actually happens. Still, it's an easy thing to implement, and it might work for the more involved voters.

 

[Enigma_87]

Wow a lot going on here. I see Skizzo made a change I'd like to address personally.

Managers input should have some weight in the votes. Not saying you should change it (even though you should ) but on one hand here, we had a manager prepare for the wrong line up initially and sub straight away, and then make arguments against the opposition that undermines his own team. Plus with VDS in goal

So you should have more weight because I made a sub straight away seeing your line up? Yet making a change to whole another formation with 2 of the players in the initial formation having completely different roles should be neglected? How does that work?

The other has done lots of research and shown how their players would work, with no proof on how it wouldn't.

Then why make the change? If you believe Totti and Moller will excel there why changing the formation and have 2 of the players in the roles they should have been from the beginning in the last 5 minutes of the game? You provided so many proofs(namely 2 squads from 1995 when Totti was 19 years old and couple of gif examples where there is no #10 around him and even operating in the zone what I always said from page 1) yet you make the change in the end? I simply don't buy that. You were losing at that point and that made you shuffle the formation accomodating two of your players in their best positions, yet you spent 85 mins or so in the game arguing otherwise.

The work put in previous drafts and matches by people like Sjor, Joga, Aldo, Balu, yourself, etc should all count for something because a manager putting more work into knowing, understanding and prepping his team should count for something after all.

Don't know how that would translate into votes or draft mechanics though.

Well let's see how that works - in the beginning you made a surprise outing putting Moller, Basler and Enrique - 3 attacking players in the same team, almost right away I made the change, yet in the dying minutes of the game you reverted to Totti in #10 - the reason why I put Davids at DM in the first place - Basler out wide - the reason why I had Alaba there helping out Marcelo. So at the end after all the discussion went on at the end you put the exact formation I had in mind and preparing the team for, yet you take all the credit for both. Ok mate if you think that is fair

 

[Enigma_87]

crappycrapersonc KM Sparky Rhiwabon PedroMendez Boycott Mciahel Goodman

Let's decide this one guys I can see no point in penalties.

 

[Gio]

Basler off the bench in the 82nd minute to haul his team from 9-10 down to 11-10 ahead. Sensational stuff.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Sigma @Stobzilla @Šjor Bepo and and other regular voters as well.

 

[Sigma]

@Sigma @Stobzilla @Šjor Bepo and and other regular voters as well.

I think I have voted once in this whole series

 

[Enigma_87]

I think I have voted once in this whole series

Took it from one random thread Just saw that sjor was tagged already by Skizzo as well. Anyways thanks for the input

 

[Gio]

Feck me it's 12-11. Basler's gone and got sent off and started fighting with Moller on the sidelines.