The Third Sheep Draft - QF: Chesterlestreet vs Enigma/Red Tiger

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Great discussion so far!

 

[RedTiger]

Great discussion so far!

Wait till I've finished work

 

[Enigma_87]

Here's a piece on Blanchflower to underline my point for lack of speed and IMO Seedorf/Redondo getting the best of the midfield battle and controlling the midfield.

For all his excellence, Blanchflower was not a spectacular footballer, more a subtle, all-pervasive influence from his position of right- half (a 'midfielder' in modern parlance). In his prime, between 1957 and 1962, he was one of the most creative players in the game, capable of dictating the tempo of a match like few others.

Neither quick nor muscular, though endowed with a wiry strength, Blanchflower had an instinct for slipping into space at crucial moments.

And a little piece on defensive duties

However, despite being deprived of the captaincy, Blanchflower grew ever more influential and in 1957-58 completed what was arguably his most brilliant individual campaign, which he climaxed by leading Northern Ireland to the last eight of the World Cup. Deservedly, he was named Footballer of the Year (an accolade repeated in 1961).

Yet still Spurs were not winning trophies and their new manager, Bill Nicholson, dropped Blanchflower, whom he described as being invaluable in a good side but a luxury in a bad one because of his inadequate defensive input. By now Blanchflower was 33 and the end might have been imminent, but the astute Nicholson had none of it. He turned down a transfer request and reinstalled his elder statesman as captain - to fabulous effect.

I can see Chester asking Blanchflower to put a defensive shift. I'm not sure how that can pan out against Seedorf/Redondo who are known for their strength, stamina and physical presence.

For some that might claim that at 33 he's off his prime and too old in reality his career kicked in at 25:

At the age of 25, and maturing into a very fine player, he seemed ready-made for stardom. But before long he became disenchanted with the unimaginative, inflexible tactics employed at Villa Park and, in typically outspoken manner, made his feelings known.

I know that both Blanchflower and Mullery were from a different age and the tempo was quite slower than in the 90's, 00's when was Redondo/Seedorf peak, but purely coming from physical qualities we have a much more mobile, faster and stronger central midfield pair.

Now I think the biggest flaw in Chester's side is that he's set up for counter attacking formation and that will probably be his style, but IMO he doesn't have the players for it. Both Mendieta and Blanchflower are slow, Mullery is DM who most likely won't be able to get forward and either way I doubt he's faster than Seedorf.

Then you have Rensenbrink who will be tightly marked by Vogts. Sekularac whose main qualities are dribbling, passing vision, but not pace and acceleration and Larsson.

If Chester tries to find Larsson or Rensenbrink with long balls I don't think that will work either as he also has height disadvantage all over the field(I think only Fillol is above 180cm).

As for defensive duties if Mendieta is helping in the middle of the park he can't possibly attack Komano as we can't have it both ways.

Same goes for Junior if he's tucking in then he's leaving the right flank exposed for Stojkovic. Of course Stojkovic likes to tuck in, but if you just see the amount of quality crosses he put in that Argentina match in 1990, just in a single match you're asking for trouble.

In addition to that we have Franklin and Billy Wright - both with height and strength disadvantage in the box compared to Shearer who has a tremendous leap and power. I'm not sure leaving the flank open for a cross would be a good idea.

I think we have more strength, more height and more pace individually and as a team and I think the better ability on the ball(front 6 combined). Chester's side is solid overall with no weakness on paper, but IMO man by man our is a bit better.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Congrats, @Enigma_87 and @RedTiger!

I honestly think several of your assessments are somewhat off the mark. Wright, for instance, was extremely physical and was famous for his leap, similar to your Italian "midget" in that regard - I don't see him having any trouble handling Shearer at all.

Blanchflower wasn't fast, that's true, but he wasn't particularly slow either. And he isn't tasked with running up and down the pitch here - that falls on Mullery if it falls on either of them, and Mullery IS fast.

However, these are minor points, really, and I'm fine with losing this one. There isn't that much more I can get out of this particular team without sacrificing the initial idea: I've gone for players I genuinely admire for one reason or another throughout, with the one exception of Owen, who I simply had to take because he was pretty much the only viable option. The fact is that I'd have to strengthen either the middle of the park (Mullery out) or the wings to an extent which is hardly realistic in order to carry on with this set-up: Sekularac has to play - and he simply isn't lethal enough: He's a pure trickster, the very opposite of bread and butter. There's a lack of goals in the team which can't be ignored, I think, and I'm not willing to compromise in order to rectify that, so I'd have to land a right winger, say, who I both genuinely like and who is a tremendous goal threat - and I don't see that happening.

In short, the team has run its course, I reckon.

Good luck in the s-f, will be interesting to see what upgrades you can manage. The sheep has to go, obviously, you won't get away with sporting him any longer.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

On a general note one could add that the turnout isn't poor considering the circumstances, holiday season and a much debated United match. Also pleased to see that the great majority of the voters went for 2-1 (some also for 1-0), which I think is a fair reflection of the teams and the tactics.

Will be very interesting to see what everyone has to say about the new voting system after this draft is over.

 

[Gio]

I know that both Blanchflower and Mullery were from a different age and the tempo was quite slower than in the 90's, 00's when was Redondo/Seedorf peak, but purely coming from physical qualities we have a much more mobile, faster and stronger central midfield pair.

Now I think the biggest flaw in Chester's side is that he's set up for counter attacking formation and that will probably be his style, but IMO he doesn't have the players for it. Both Mendieta and Blanchflower are slow, Mullery is DM who most likely won't be able to get forward and either way I doubt he's faster than Seedorf.

I'm not really buying the pace argument. If there is one area of the park where pace is not a big concern, it's the centre of midfield. Especially with both teams sporting trios of sorts there, rather than just a straight 4-4-2 box-to-box battle where it might become relevant. And painting Redondo as some sort of exceptional physical specimen is stretching the truth. He was never a runner like Fletcher and nor was he a defensive colossus like Desailly, Makelele or Mauro Silva. He had a blend of other qualities which could mean he could well run the game here (although he's got less chance of doing that on the right hand side of midfield) and equally could get exposed by the trickiness of Sekularac. His partner Seedorf was very well built, but he too was never known for pace and, whenever deployed out wide, rarely got beyond the defensive line. On the other side Mullery was mobile with a tireless engine - it's likely he'll cover more ground than any of the four CMs.

In addition to that we have Franklin and Billy Wright - both with height and strength disadvantage in the box compared to Shearer who has a tremendous leap and power. I'm not sure leaving the flank open for a cross would be a good idea.

Come on, that's bollocks really. Shearer stands out in the modern era as a throwback to the type of centre-forwards that were common in the English game in Neil and Billy's time. That's the sort of centre-forward they faced every week and, while not many would have operated at Shearer's level (at least a couple did in fairness), they'll absolutely be in their element dealing with a man of his ilk. When you have a winger like Matthews praising Franklin to the hilt, a winger whose game was based on setting up playing strikers with "tremendous leap and power", then it's crystal clear he'll stand a strong chance of holding his own (and then some) here.

 

[Enigma_87]

Congrats, @Enigma_87 and @RedTiger!

Thanks mate. I noticed throghout the draft that you picked players you generally like and IMO you compiled a pretty formidable team. Some of them are not my cup of tea, but surely I rate each one of your players and I think all of them are nice fit, as I said on the previous page I don't think your team has clear weakness.

I honestly think several of your assessments are somewhat off the mark. Wright, for instance, was extremely physical and was famous for his leap, similar to your Italian "midget" in that regard - I don't see him having any trouble handling Shearer at all.

Well from my research and what I know about Wright he's a short and not that physical compared to defenders of later eras. I won't say he's a midget or something but he's a bit shorter for a CB and would have problems with physical, taller and stronger strikers. I was researching him because I wanted to go for him, but at the end his physical qualities and the fact that we already had one shorter CB put me back and IMO McNeill was the best fit.

Blanchflower wasn't fast, that's true, but he wasn't particularly slow either. And he isn't tasked with running up and down the pitch here - that falls on Mullery if it falls on either of them, and Mullery IS fast.

Well for Mullery I know he was quick, but I'm not sure if he's really quick I mean, I compared him to Seedorf, as Seedorf is faster than Redondo and I'd imagine that Mullery would be at the same pace, of course if you have better info I'd be curious to know of course

As for Blanchflower I think he is a bit of a deep playmaker Pirlo style if I can compare him, and I'm not sure how well he can contribute defensively, hence I think our midfield would have the upper hand.

However, these are minor points, really, and I'm fine with losing this one. There isn't that much more I can get out of this particular team without sacrificing the initial idea: I've gone for players I genuinely admire for one reason or another throughout, with the one exception of Owen, who I simply had to take because he was pretty much the only viable option. The fact is that I'd have to strengthen either the middle of the park (Mullery out) or the wings to an extent which is hardly realistic in order to carry on with this set-up: Sekularac has to play - and he simply isn't lethal enough: He's a pure trickster, the very opposite of bread and butter. There's a lack of goals in the team which can't be ignored, I think, and I'm not willing to compromise in order to rectify that, so I'd have to land a right winger, say, who I both genuinely like and who is a tremendous goal threat - and I don't see that happening.

I genuinely thought that you would use Owen instead of Sekularac with Larsson behind him. In this case you have the similar balance, but 2 proven goalscorers that have pace. To me I think they would've been essentially better choice especially as Sekularac is not very well known and not a genuine goalscorer.

I think if you could've had Matthews or Boniek instead of Mendieta and with Junior tucking in to help the midfield, which IMO was great point made by Joga you would have had even more formidable team, but again we didn't have a good reinforcement round ourselves only covering one position that needed to be covered so I can see where you come from.

In short, the team has run its course, I reckon.

Good luck in the s-f, will be interesting to see what upgrades you can manage. The sheep has to go, obviously, you won't get away with sporting him any longer.

Thanks, mate, appreciated.

I think Komano is a definite no go for the semi finals. We have to cover him but now at least we have much better options in doing so. It was a risk that we took, but either way I thought EAP would also go for Winterburn/Bennarivo in the last pick so essentially again we would've cancelled each other out and we wouldn't reinforce the keeper as well.

Apart from left back however I'm not sure what position to go for next to be fair. I don't want to break up Signori/Shearer partnership and IMO Stojkovic as an inside forward is probably his best position along with #10.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not really buying the pace argument. If there is one area of the park where pace is not a big concern, it's the centre of midfield. Especially with both teams sporting trios of sorts there, rather than just a straight 4-4-2 box-to-box battle where it might become relevant. And painting Redondo as some sort of exceptional physical specimen is stretching the truth. He was never a runner like Fletcher and nor was he a defensive colossus like Desailly, Makelele or Mauro Silva. He had a blend of other qualities which could mean he could well run the game here (although he's got less chance of doing that on the right hand side of midfield) and equally could get exposed by the trickiness of Sekularac. His partner Seedorf was very well built, but he too was never known for pace and, whenever deployed out wide, rarely got beyond the defensive line. On the other side Mullery was mobile with a tireless engine - it's likely he'll cover more ground than any of the four CMs.

For the physical side of the midfield Seedorf would be compared to Mullery and Redondo to Blanchflower. Surely Redondo is flaky but he's lean in the Blanchflower mould with added height of course. I'm not saying he's Desailly or something just compared the 4 of them. For Seedorf he's quick, not the most pacy of course but I think(from what I know at least about Mullery) about the same pace. I think for a counter attacking setup pacy players are pretty important, but again that's my vision of the setup. Also I'd prefer a player like Vieira/Toure for example who if not lightening fast has a big step and can carry the ball fast out of his own half.

Come on, that's bollocks really. Shearer stands out in the modern era as a throwback to the type of centre-forwards that were common in the English game in Neil and Billy's time. That's the sort of centre-forward they faced every week and, while not many would have operated at Shearer's level (at least a couple did in fairness), they'll absolutely be in their element dealing with a man of his ilk. When you have a winger like Matthews praising Franklin to the hilt, a winger whose game was based on setting up playing strikers with "tremendous leap and power", then it's crystal clear he'll stand a strong chance of holding his own (and then some) here.

From what I know of Billy Wright's era I'm not sure if there was a striker in the Shearer mold that he faced during his time. From my knowledge if it comes to prolific goalscorers only two names come up - Lofthouse and Greaves and none of them are like Shearer or are that well built like Shearer. It will be interesting to know if you have better examples but from that time I can't think of a striker of Shearer level that had similar structure as well.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Apart from left back however I'm not sure what position to go for next to be fair. I don't want to break up Signori/Shearer partnership and IMO Stojkovic as an inside forward is probably his best position along with #10.

Imo, I still think you'll do Stojkovic a big favour by not playing him as a Inside Right. I still think of him as a better #10 or a backup Inside Left. Move him centre, get a decent RW and you've got a grand team.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I won't say he's a midget or something but he's a bit shorter for a CB and would have problems with physical, taller and stronger strikers. I was researching him because I wanted to go for him, but at the end his physical qualities and the fact that we already had one shorter CB put me back and IMO McNeill was the best fit.

I don't think height is a prerequisite for aerial prowess. Granted, a bit of height wouldn't go amiss but some of the greatest headers of the ball weren't exactly giants, so to say. Passarella was almost midget-like (1.73 m) and he was nothing short of brilliant in the air, with Maradona claiming "He’s the best defender I’ve ever seen, and the best header of a ball too – in attack as well as defence". Likewise Seeler (1.70 m) easily had the beating of the defenders who towered above him, due to his monstrous leap - was always quite the sight to see him beat taller defenders to the ball with relative ease. You are also underrating Cannavaro in this respect, as he was pretty excellent in the air despite his height. Billy Wright was your archetypal stopper and someone who would probably relish his aerial and physical battle with Shearer. Can't see Shearer getting the better of him in those areas tbh.

Anyway, congrats on the win. Looking forward to see how your team shapes up. A real shame to see Chester go out though, really crafted a lovely team.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

A real shame to see Chester go out though, really crafted a lovely team.

Thanks for those kind words, mate. I did like the team, very much - and I'm pleased with how I managed to assemble it. Owen was the only odd man out from the initial drafting - and only one misfit in a sheep draft ain't bad. Plus, he actually worked well in that first round set-up.

My only regret is that I didn't get the chance to properly highlight Šekularac: My idea was to build a team around a true trouble maker, if you will - a trickster who had no other job than being a trickster, playing that disrupt-the-opposition-with-trickery part to perfection.

The problem with him was obvious from the beginning, however: He isn't a plausible goal threat. So, you need others to carry that burden - and I only had Larsson among my actual boys (Owen was never one of my boys as such) as an undoubted goal threat. Rensebrink - to an extent, yes, but he isn't someone you can highlight as an actual goal threat.

Looking at it in draft terms, there's also the question of Larsson's final worthy-ness, so to speak. In order to assemble a team with a realistic chance of success, I would have needed a heavier hitter to lead the line. Hence my attempt to secure Romario. One route would've been to go with Romario, and Larsson in the second striker role - keeping ol' Dragoslav in that faux wide man/free role from the first knockout match - and then, ideally, replace Mullery with an absolute world beater.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments on Wright: To me it's obvious that he of all people wouldn't struggle with a striker of Shearer's ilk. Obviously not. Shearer is exactly the sort of striker you want someone like Wright to deal with. Height? That's ludicrous. Wright was the original Passarella in that regard - a fairly short player who was immense in the air. This is well known, one could add, and as such a perfectly spurious argument (just saying). Similar to the odd attempt at discrediting Larsson in the first match, actually - a player who is positively famous for his aerial prowess being dismissed based on height.

 

[Enigma_87]

Imo, I still think you'll do Stojkovic a big favour by not playing him as a Inside Right. I still think of him as a better #10 or a backup Inside Left. Move him centre, get a decent RW and you've got a grand team.

Thanks mate.
For Stojkovic however inside right is his best position IMO tho. Inside right as well as #10, but yeah with Boniek and Matthews available that's certainly an option. But I'll see what wide options are available and of course to sort out the fecking LB issue.

Good luck with your game as well mate.

 

[RedTiger]

Shit, in sorry guys, I over slept Nice to see that my lack of input didn't affect the scoreline

Commiserations to @Chesterlestreet, you built a nice team with good British spine (as you always do) .

Mate. Hopefully I'll try to organize a draft myself, I hope you will be a part of it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Shit, in sorry guys, I over slept Nice to see that my lack of input didn't affect the scoreline

Commiserations to @Chesterlestreet, you built a nice team with good British spine (as you always do) .

Mate. Hopefully I'll try to organize a draft myself, I hope you will be a part of it.

Thank you - and congratulations! You've got a team I like very much on several levels - and I hope you'll be able to upgrade it with the right players.

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks for those kind words, mate. I did like the team, very much - and I'm pleased with how I managed to assemble it. Owen was the only odd man out from the initial drafting - and only one misfit in a sheep draft ain't bad. Plus, he actually worked well in that first round set-up.

My only regret is that I didn't get the chance to properly highlight Šekularac: My idea was to build a team around a true trouble maker, if you will - a trickster who had no other job than being a trickster, playing that disrupt-the-opposition-with-trickery part to perfection.

The problem with him was obvious from the beginning, however: He isn't a plausible goal threat. So, you need others to carry that burden - and I only had Larsson among my actual boys (Owen was never one of my boys as such) as an undoubted goal threat. Rensebrink - to an extent, yes, but he isn't someone you can highlight as an actual goal threat.

Looking at it in draft terms, there's also the question of Larsson's final worthy-ness, so to speak. In order to assemble a team with a realistic chance of success, I would have needed a heavier hitter to lead the line. Hence my attempt to secure Romario. One route would've been to go with Romario, and Larsson in the second striker role - keeping ol' Dragoslav in that faux wide man/free role from the first knockout match - and then, ideally, replace Mullery with an absolute world beater.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments on Wright: To me it's obvious that he of all people wouldn't struggle with a striker of Shearer's ilk. Obviously not. Shearer is exactly the sort of striker you want someone like Wright to deal with. Height? That's ludicrous. Wright was the original Passarella in that regard - a fairly short player who was immense in the air. This is well known, one could add, and as such a perfectly spurious argument (just saying). Similar to the odd attempt at discrediting Larsson in the first match, actually - a player who is positively famous for his aerial prowess being dismissed based on height.

I really liked how you assembled the team mate, I think you compiled a really good team with the right players on most positions. Of course there are some that could have been improved but same can be said for our team and the rest in the draft.

That was a good plan to set it up, maybe Boniek and Matthews also would've helped a lot as they were available for the all three rounds, but so was Breitner...

For Wright I think we have to agree to disagree on that point dealing with a striker of Shearer's ilk, while for Larsson I think it s a bit different being a forward and the way he can get into a position withouth bothering for the height.