Fair play to you if you're optimistic in that scenario.
The Summer of *Massive Change
- Thread starter crossy1686
- Start date
Fair play to you if you're optimistic in that scenario.
This isn’t a normal summer and there is an abnormal number of players leaving the club.
The briefings from the club are worrying, truth be told. We need at least six players otherwise we’re setting Ten Hag up to fail.
I think anyone expecting a summer of massive incomings was bound to be disappointed. For the last 5 years, we’ve had a bloated and overpaid squad. Much of the players who’ve left were stuck on the bench. What we need is a leaner and more efficient squad, so that ten Hag can hammer in his philosophy and tactics to players who want to listen. You aren’t going to achieve that with a huge squad full of misfits on massive wages. Players such as VDB, Amad, Garner, Elanga, Hannibal and Mengi will likely replace some of the outgoing players and 3 to 4 will come in to help elevate the squad further.
Changes in structure so far:
Old
New
Whoever came up with the old hierarchy has probably never really worked in a commercial company before. The first team manager may be the most prominent role we notice but in reality, it is not the most powerful role in the club's administration.
For starters, the football director is in charge of everything football related, including the first team manager, academy, football negotiations and football operations. A director is always higher than a manager. Previously Ole reported directly to Woodward, but this has changed since Murtough got promoted to football director. The academy head is also a very big role and is independent of first team management. So Nicky Butt certainly did not report to Solskjaer, but they do work closely since the first team manager makes the final decision on academy talents who can come into the first team. Simon Wells might have been a scout recommended by Ole, but job designations/structures have to tie into the club's administrative structure so it makes no sense for Simon Wells to report to Ole. Simon Wells was and is always working under the recruitment team.
The new hierarchy is slightly wrong on Ten Hag's role (he should be reporting to Murtough) but otherwise it is correct. The good thing is that Manchester United have a proper footballing structure now (thanks to Ole's off the field work) and this will prove dividends in the seasons to come.
I want to believe this but Neville said the dressing room at United is broken, he also followed it up with he’s not privy to what’s actually going on but that’s what he’s deducted. I’m hoping a few more leave, like Martial and Bailly, and the rest of the gang just accept Ronaldo is the top dog and don’t let their egos get bruised by his presence around the place.
Actually the manager is never in charge of recruitment. Basically the first team manager and scouts are similar to a project manager and HR in a commercial company. The first team manager will tell the football director or recruitment head (if football director is not there) to look for players of certain attributes based on his assessment of the current squad and the recruitment head will ask the scouts to look for such players. Its similar to a project manager telling the HR that he needs a software engineer of a certain skillset and the HR's job is to look for suitable candidates. For some reason or another, the recruitment team's selected players have not been very good and this is where the new structure hopes to address this better.
Since there has been a major upheaval of the scouting structure, ETH has probably suggested some targets for the critical areas while the scouts look for the other areas.
What part scares you?
It's worth remembering we haven't really had a decent hands on coach for many years. Who knows which player may suddenly blossom.
My thinking too. We will sign 4 maybe 1 more if the money and opportunity is there. The other squad places are there for young ones to step up. I think it’s properly exciting
Good point
People overestimate how many players need replacing. 3-4 good signings can makeup like 35% of your starting eleven. Then you can expect some improvements from existing players stuck in a wrong system or lacking confidence.
We might get them to settle for a smaller one-off lump sum. It happens quite often.
Say they are on £100k per week and have a year left. That’s £5.2m. If we offered them say £4.6m to clear off immediately it would save us money and hassle in the long run in exchange for a relatively minor hit to cash flow, and they’d be free to start a new career.
True.
But:
- Last time we had one (LvG) virtually everyone on the CAF hated him
- That was six years ago. Players like Shaw and Rashford have got so used to having to make it up as they go along that they may now be unable to cope with having to “go back to school”
This assumes a) they would agree to such a reduction in money and b) that they would see out their entire contract sat in the reserves and wouldn't leave if told they had no hope of being in the first team. We don't know either of these things.
It’s really quite boring on here at this time of year. Hopefully the club spring into action soon with more news of outgoings and the crucial incoming talent and news how these structural changes are going to improve our outlook. Unfortunately It’s all still PR at this point but I have faith things are slowly moving in the right direction.
A) true, but it’s worth a try.
B) I doubt they’d be “left to rot in the reserves”; this is something that fans wish on players they don’t like but clubs are generally run on practical lines, not emotional ones. If a player demands to see out their contract some sort of fringe role will be found for them, as has happened with Jones. If they’re on some sort of appearance bonus they might not appear very often.
We supposedly had a proper structure 15 months ago, now goalposts have been moved and we actually have one now (and I’d say it have virtually nothing to do with anything Ole).
The structure will be irrelevant if people keep making bad decisions and the club is still full of people who have been involved in nothing but failure. Most concerning of all is the ultimate decision makers were and still are the Glazers.
I just hope if we aren’t successful we will at least see more accountability and an end to the goalposts being moved constantly to gloss over failure because we can’t see repeat of only the manager being held accountable.
Last time we had one (LvG) virtually everyone on the CAF hated him
- That was six years ago. Players like Shaw and Rashford have got so used to having to make it up as they go along that they may now be unable to cope with having to “go back to school”
From what I've heard ETH is the best coach we've had since before SAF left. And you are spot on - it will be the uncoachables that have to go. Some because they can't change. Some because they won't.
The reason why you don't see often players in the reserves is because they typically leave when they know they won't get a chance. Very few players are such mercenaries that they'll sit out a 12 to 36 month contract with no chance of playing at all. So there's no need to pay out their entire contract once you make it clear they won't play. If someone on a 2 year contract leaves with a year to go, you save far more than a negotiated exit where you pay them up front almost all they're owed.
There are cases where a player can't leave, due to injury for example. The reason you then have to find a role for them is because clubs can't afford to have an endless number of players on the books, so they often can't add a replacement to the wage bill until the last player leaves. But of course, if you paid up their entire contract up front then you've essentially made no space in the wage bill. Even if you "only" pay them 90% of their wages, the difference is nowhere near enough to replace them. So you don't save much money and you don't have a player either. Lose-lose.
Our problem has been this awful policy of giving contracts to players who we should be getting rid of in the hope that we can get some transfer fee down the line, in order to protect their value. Losing those players for nothing is a necessary hit if it means saving salary. But paying their entire salary up front gains us nothing. We can't replace them, we obviously can't use them when they're gone, and
I believe Matic and Pogba were the most skilled midfielders we had and the two best with the ball.
We're currently left with Fred and McTominay which when compared to good or great midfields that we've had is scary unless they're both midfield squad players behind two new signings.
When the two best attackers are 37 years old and pending possible prison time, that's a worry. We definitely need a top striker that can come in and hit the ground running until McNeill and Garnacho become first team players.
The feeling at the moment is that Dalot is our best full back. That's scary too.
I think we need atleast 5 starter level players to compete for top 4 next season. City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs are going to invest again and are already ahead of us. We're genuinely competing for players with Arsenal and Newcastle. The calibre of player we need are looking at Bayern, Madrid, PSG, and our local rivals.
Big change is needed simply to not fall further behind and not make the top 6 next season nevermind 4th.
Going off your post, OP:
Pogba
Lingard
Henderson (likely) -> Less than 50% chance. I'm sure he will be pushing to move, but he is one of the highest paid GK's in the league (his wages are not that far off from Alison's, which then is less than half of DDG's), so he will have to drastically lower his wage to get his move. There were Newcastle rumors, but the more recent rumors are now saying they're not interested.
Martial (likely) -> Nope. I can't see him willing to a paycut and nobody is going to take him on anywhere close those wages, especially after his failed loan season. He may go on another loan, but we will probably be subsidizing his salary.
Matic
Mata
Pereria -> He's not confirmed to be leaving? Has there been an update? Flamengo didn't want to sign him and nobody seems interested.
Jones (maybe) -> Major doubt. He doesn't seem to have any motivation to leave.
Greenwood (likely) -> Okay that's fair. He's done here.
Bailly (likely) -> Probably the most likely one out of this bunch to leave
Wan-Bissaka (maybe) -> Doubt unless we agree to sell him for peanuts
Cavani
Tuanzebe (likely) -> I would say maybe
Van De Beek (was likely, now a maybe) -> Not sure what's happening here with Ten Hag now in charge. Maybe sounds right
Rashford (not likely but strong rumours the club and him are willing to part ways this summer for the best of all parties) -> 99% staying IMO
Pogba
Lingard
Henderson (likely) -> Less than 50% chance. I'm sure he will be pushing to move, but he is one of the highest paid GK's in the league (his wages are not that far off from Alison's, which then is less than half of DDG's), so he will have to drastically lower his wage to get his move. There were Newcastle rumors, but the more recent rumors are now saying they're not interested.
Martial (likely) -> Nope. I can't see him willing to a paycut and nobody is going to take him on anywhere close those wages, especially after his failed loan season. He may go on another loan, but we will probably be subsidizing his salary.
Matic
Mata
Pereria -> He's not confirmed to be leaving? Has there been an update? Flamengo didn't want to sign him and nobody seems interested.
Jones (maybe) -> Major doubt. He doesn't seem to have any motivation to leave.
Greenwood (likely) -> Okay that's fair. He's done here.
Bailly (likely) -> Probably the most likely one out of this bunch to leave
Wan-Bissaka (maybe) -> Doubt unless we agree to sell him for peanuts
Cavani
Tuanzebe (likely) -> I would say maybe
Van De Beek (was likely, now a maybe) -> Not sure what's happening here with Ten Hag now in charge. Maybe sounds right
Rashford (not likely but strong rumours the club and him are willing to part ways this summer for the best of all parties) -> 99% staying IMO
Midfield: FDJ, Neves and Erickson!! Total outlay 100m!
A forward: no clue who it can and should be but 70m
Defence: 50m (only one)…
Outlay is not the problem but we simply can’t seem to recoup any money from sales!! We have really really bad people in charge who can’t sell anyone!!
A forward: no clue who it can and should be but 70m
Defence: 50m (only one)…
Outlay is not the problem but we simply can’t seem to recoup any money from sales!! We have really really bad people in charge who can’t sell anyone!!
Maybe it makes sense to focus on the players where there seems to be some chance they will be in ten Hag's plans this following season. Ie, the players that aren't known to be deemed surplus to requirements, and who aren't actively trying to leave the club, and who aren't loan players who might or might not fit into things. If so, that leaves this:
GK: Dea Gea, Heaton
LB: Shaw, Telles
RB: Dalot
CB: Maguire, Varane, Lindelof
CM: Fred, McTominay
No 10: Bruno, van de Beek
Forward 3: Rashford, Sancho, Ronaldo, Elanga
That's a lot of holes to fill - at the very least, a RB, a CB, 2 CMs and 2 forwards. There are 3 ways to fill them: Acquire new players, bring in loan-returnees or academy players, or keep players you ideally want to sell (or who ideally want to be sold).
GK: Whatever happens to Henderson, we're set. For now. But sooner or later there's a question if you can really continue with a GK who is so little involved outside his own line as de Gea is.
LB: Probably not a priority area.
RB: AWB evidently to be sold. Williams and Laird are options, but the trouble is we really lack a credible starter. I don't see how this could not be a significant problem area if we don't bring someone in.
CB: Holdovers: Bailly is centre of discontent and must be ditched, Jones wants out and is right to want so. Returning loanees: Tuanzebe, who did little to indicate he's got a United future. If they all leave, then we need another body in central defence, we can't just have 3. There is also a case for upgrade (ie, a starting XI level player), but I'm not sure if there's a compelling case that should trump several other needs.
CM: Here we're already two bodies short. DvdB can play there, but presumably EtH wants to use him further forward. Garner and/or Mejbri may make the cut, but are hardly the go-to options. Perhaps there's enough that we could make do with one new player, if so, that needs to be the most defensive holding midfielder, where we have no one credible. If there's not two new acquisitions, then Fred is essentially a regular starter.
No 10. All set. Not only do we have Bruno and Donny, also Mejbri may be in the mix?
Forward 3: This looks to me like the area where we have maybe the biggest holes. Two players short. Martial is the holdover who could fill one of those two slots, but given how clear he's been about wanting to leave (not to mention how bad he's been the past two seasons), it seems like a stretch to imagine another dawn for him at United. Diallo and Pellistri returning loanees, but neither seem plausible options for regular playing time. Then there's Garnacho, who may or may not fill such a spot.
You see why Timber is an attractive option - he'd solve issues at both CB and RB.
It looks to me like making this work reasonably well would require at least 3 new signings (CM, Forward, RB), and preferably 5 (another forward and another central midfielder). The RB and both CMs should be starting XI quality, the forwards don't necessarily have to be. While upgrading at CB and in goal (and replacing Ronaldo) would have to wait for next summer, at the earliest.
GK: Dea Gea, Heaton
LB: Shaw, Telles
RB: Dalot
CB: Maguire, Varane, Lindelof
CM: Fred, McTominay
No 10: Bruno, van de Beek
Forward 3: Rashford, Sancho, Ronaldo, Elanga
That's a lot of holes to fill - at the very least, a RB, a CB, 2 CMs and 2 forwards. There are 3 ways to fill them: Acquire new players, bring in loan-returnees or academy players, or keep players you ideally want to sell (or who ideally want to be sold).
GK: Whatever happens to Henderson, we're set. For now. But sooner or later there's a question if you can really continue with a GK who is so little involved outside his own line as de Gea is.
LB: Probably not a priority area.
RB: AWB evidently to be sold. Williams and Laird are options, but the trouble is we really lack a credible starter. I don't see how this could not be a significant problem area if we don't bring someone in.
CB: Holdovers: Bailly is centre of discontent and must be ditched, Jones wants out and is right to want so. Returning loanees: Tuanzebe, who did little to indicate he's got a United future. If they all leave, then we need another body in central defence, we can't just have 3. There is also a case for upgrade (ie, a starting XI level player), but I'm not sure if there's a compelling case that should trump several other needs.
CM: Here we're already two bodies short. DvdB can play there, but presumably EtH wants to use him further forward. Garner and/or Mejbri may make the cut, but are hardly the go-to options. Perhaps there's enough that we could make do with one new player, if so, that needs to be the most defensive holding midfielder, where we have no one credible. If there's not two new acquisitions, then Fred is essentially a regular starter.
No 10. All set. Not only do we have Bruno and Donny, also Mejbri may be in the mix?
Forward 3: This looks to me like the area where we have maybe the biggest holes. Two players short. Martial is the holdover who could fill one of those two slots, but given how clear he's been about wanting to leave (not to mention how bad he's been the past two seasons), it seems like a stretch to imagine another dawn for him at United. Diallo and Pellistri returning loanees, but neither seem plausible options for regular playing time. Then there's Garnacho, who may or may not fill such a spot.
You see why Timber is an attractive option - he'd solve issues at both CB and RB.
It looks to me like making this work reasonably well would require at least 3 new signings (CM, Forward, RB), and preferably 5 (another forward and another central midfielder). The RB and both CMs should be starting XI quality, the forwards don't necessarily have to be. While upgrading at CB and in goal (and replacing Ronaldo) would have to wait for next summer, at the earliest.
I would expect the incomings and outgoings to start only when the players are back to training.
Bailly needs to leave given how many leaks he has been linked with.
if AWB is shifted that would be a bonus, even if it’s on loan.
Will still need a full back, a central mid and a striker at a minimum. Minimum is what I’m expecting here, there are bad apples but I do think that some tweaks here and there will get certain players up and running again.
We should get more out of sancho and varane next year. Elanga has some good experience now and perhaps Donny will actually show something (though am sceptical myself). A few quality signings should help drive things forward. Pressing from the front is something that needs to be fixed and Rashford has not shown willingness to learn that -we really do need him to step up because we won’t get anywhere with a front three where two contribute nothing defensively
if AWB is shifted that would be a bonus, even if it’s on loan.
Will still need a full back, a central mid and a striker at a minimum. Minimum is what I’m expecting here, there are bad apples but I do think that some tweaks here and there will get certain players up and running again.
We should get more out of sancho and varane next year. Elanga has some good experience now and perhaps Donny will actually show something (though am sceptical myself). A few quality signings should help drive things forward. Pressing from the front is something that needs to be fixed and Rashford has not shown willingness to learn that -we really do need him to step up because we won’t get anywhere with a front three where two contribute nothing defensively
I don't want to be a grumpy fan with a negative outlook, but we know United are a PR machine when they want to get a message out - although we can all agree that it's almost always a shit message and poorly timed.
So far that machine has essentially said we're working on the big money marquee poster boy - Frenkie De Jong. When that's done we'll take it from there.
If that is the way the club is working on this summer's recruitment, because that genuinely appears to be the case, then absolutely nothing has changed and nothing has been reviewed or refined.
I sit here in hope that it's all gas and air and they are genuinely working around the clock to get the squad into shape as soon as possible, but it's not looking good and it's looking no different to most summers over the last 10 years.
Ten Hag is definitely going into 22/23 with a tried and failed CB pairing of Maguire and Varane, a disastrous CM pairing of Fred and McTominay and a nearly 38 year old Cristiano Ronaldo. Then Edwin feels sorry for us and sells us Timber for £60m on deadline day.
So far that machine has essentially said we're working on the big money marquee poster boy - Frenkie De Jong. When that's done we'll take it from there.
If that is the way the club is working on this summer's recruitment, because that genuinely appears to be the case, then absolutely nothing has changed and nothing has been reviewed or refined.
I sit here in hope that it's all gas and air and they are genuinely working around the clock to get the squad into shape as soon as possible, but it's not looking good and it's looking no different to most summers over the last 10 years.
Ten Hag is definitely going into 22/23 with a tried and failed CB pairing of Maguire and Varane, a disastrous CM pairing of Fred and McTominay and a nearly 38 year old Cristiano Ronaldo. Then Edwin feels sorry for us and sells us Timber for £60m on deadline day.
Some of those need loans to push them on more.
Garner did well at Forest so in ideal world you loan him out to them one more time (like Chelsea have done with Conor Gallagher and then integrate him into squad for 23-24 but Ten Haag will probably want a look first).
Based on how he's played at international level Pellestri could be one to have Elanga type impact at some stage of the season, Diallo just warmed the bench constantly at Rangers so he isn't ready yet.
If thats the case then next summer we move them on and bring in players who are used to being coached. TH needs a my way or the highway approach, to put some respect off the players back intobthe teamTrue.
But:
- Last time we had one (LvG) virtually everyone on the CAF hated him
- That was six years ago. Players like Shaw and Rashford have got so used to having to make it up as they go along that they may now be unable to cope with having to “go back to school”
Well I very much hope you’re right. Given that Woodward is no longer in charge, Arnold looks determined to do things differently and the Glazers appear not to be standing in his way, I’m pretty confident that he will be allowed to do that.
Fans of players who continue to be crap (and there are bound to be some) will no doubt blame ETH though.
Small day today
Well there's been some change for sure.
5 new incoming and all seem nailed on to be starters for the rest of the season, gotta say not bad.
Especially with Malacia couldn't fathom he'd become our preferred left back so fast.
Especially with Malacia couldn't fathom he'd become our preferred left back so fast.
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My bad, brain malfunction.That is a very big surprise, considering he's been playing on the left
Out
Pogba
Lingard
Matic
Mata
Cavani
Telles
Bailly
Henderson
In
Malacia
Eriksen
Martinez
Casamiro
Anthony
So bad eggs gone there it's untrue. ETH has also a quickly realised the players he needs gone as well.
Benched, they need moving as well.
Pogba
Lingard
Matic
Mata
Cavani
Telles
Bailly
Henderson
In
Malacia
Eriksen
Martinez
Casamiro
Anthony
So bad eggs gone there it's untrue. ETH has also a quickly realised the players he needs gone as well.
Benched, they need moving as well.
Looks great, and we're not done yet.
Well Matic, Cavani, Pogba and Greenwood gone. Those played rather regularly when fit. Then there are others like Mata, Bailly, Hendo, Lingard who hardly played.
So we were always going to sign some new players.
So we were always going to sign some new players.