Weghorst might be poor at a lot of things but keeping possession is not one of them .
The 'Stop Making Fecking Subs ETH' Thread
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Ironically we controlled the game from 2-2 think the fact that Fred and co were pretty poor was more the problem last night
He uses preplanned subs with the input of the medical department presumably monitoring fatigue and injury probability. Understandable but he needs to manage the game situation better. Too many times we have gone up and his subs have negatively impacted our general play. Having said that our weaknesses at striker and CM are further mitigating circumstances. When your striker options are Martial and Wout it's gonna be a rough season and our season has been tragic in goal scoring terms.
He's shockingly bad in the air considering his height. He has other strengths but heading is certainly not one of them.
This. Why leave a superior player on the bench to play Weg worst. At 2-0 we could and should shored up midfield, we didnt need a 'cf' who doesnt contribute anything like a goal scoring threat. I wonder if TH plays him to try to justify buying him in the summer, god knows why though.
Isnt it? I havent seen much possession keeping from him.
I think Weghorst's a pretty poor player, and I agree that Sabizter is a better player than he is, but it's not exactly difficult to understand the rationale as to why Weghorst was subbed on.
1./ Weghorst presses all the time. It's ok to argue that the pressing's ineffective, but towards the end of a game when everyone's tiring (esp. our players), having someone who can run and press all the time to induce mistakes is not a bad idea. And his constant pressing also help take the strain off other players (e.g. Bruno) so they don't need to press as much/often.
2./ His height. As we're losing control of a game, we (esp. De Gea) tends to go long more often. Weghorst, for all that he's not great at heading, still has a better chance of getting to the first ball than others (Martial, Rashford, Sabizter, Bruno), and even if he can't get a clean header, he has a higher chance of getting to the 2nd ball or create enough pressure so that others can get to the 2nd ball.
3./ His height - 2. As we lose control, we also tend to concede more corners and freekicks, so it's advantagous to have someone taller when defending set pieces as well.
4./ Pushing Bruno to the right. Most wingers tend to be a bit lacking defensively, not just in terms of skills, but also awareness & willingness to track back. While Bruno isn't great at this himself, he's still more willing to track back more than most wingers. Also, by moving Bruno to the right, it probably allows us to keep him on the pitch for the whole game as opposed to having to take him off, since his style of play is incredibly taxing when playing through the middle, but is probably a bit less physically demanding on the wings.
5./ Pushing Bruno to the right - 2. Since we're pushing Bruno on the right, the middle of the pitch lacks someone who will press with any intensity. Sabizter is not bad at pressing, and is ok with holding a position defensively, but he's definitely not an intense presser like Bruno or Weghorst.
As I said, you can disagree with the above rationale, you can decide that it's better going with Sabizter for his other strengths, or other players/set ups because those advantages outweigh what's listed above. But to say "it's incomprehensible that Ten Hag prefers Weghorst" ....... well, I'd argue it's actually pretty easy to understand, even if I don't always agree with him. And sometimes he does help (e.g. Brighton after he's subbed on, when he first arrived), even if I think it's getting rarer and rarer.
1./ Weghorst presses all the time. It's ok to argue that the pressing's ineffective, but towards the end of a game when everyone's tiring (esp. our players), having someone who can run and press all the time to induce mistakes is not a bad idea. And his constant pressing also help take the strain off other players (e.g. Bruno) so they don't need to press as much/often.
2./ His height. As we're losing control of a game, we (esp. De Gea) tends to go long more often. Weghorst, for all that he's not great at heading, still has a better chance of getting to the first ball than others (Martial, Rashford, Sabizter, Bruno), and even if he can't get a clean header, he has a higher chance of getting to the 2nd ball or create enough pressure so that others can get to the 2nd ball.
3./ His height - 2. As we lose control, we also tend to concede more corners and freekicks, so it's advantagous to have someone taller when defending set pieces as well.
4./ Pushing Bruno to the right. Most wingers tend to be a bit lacking defensively, not just in terms of skills, but also awareness & willingness to track back. While Bruno isn't great at this himself, he's still more willing to track back more than most wingers. Also, by moving Bruno to the right, it probably allows us to keep him on the pitch for the whole game as opposed to having to take him off, since his style of play is incredibly taxing when playing through the middle, but is probably a bit less physically demanding on the wings.
5./ Pushing Bruno to the right - 2. Since we're pushing Bruno on the right, the middle of the pitch lacks someone who will press with any intensity. Sabizter is not bad at pressing, and is ok with holding a position defensively, but he's definitely not an intense presser like Bruno or Weghorst.
As I said, you can disagree with the above rationale, you can decide that it's better going with Sabizter for his other strengths, or other players/set ups because those advantages outweigh what's listed above. But to say "it's incomprehensible that Ten Hag prefers Weghorst" ....... well, I'd argue it's actually pretty easy to understand, even if I don't always agree with him. And sometimes he does help (e.g. Brighton after he's subbed on, when he first arrived), even if I think it's getting rarer and rarer.
All this thread highlights is that we need a better squad. If better players than Fred, Martial and Weghorst came on last night, we'd be celebrating a win probably. This summer is so key to the Ten Hag project.
We’re missing Garnacho badly. A lot of these games potentially end differently if it’s him coming on and not Weggy/Martial.
The subs in this match were mostly fine. We'd already lost control and were struggling, so it made complete sense to make some subs to try to regain that control. Unfortunately it largely got worse instead, but he had to try something.
Fred on for Eriksen was the right change, and is something that ETH not doing was widely considered a mistake in other matches. Eriksen tends to struggle after 60 minutes or so. Unfortunately Fred ended up having one of his shit matches where he forgets how to pass a ball, which tends to happen a couple of times a season. You can't really plan for that. Sancho on for Martial made sense since we do have to protect Martial, and it's not like he was playing particularly well at that point. The other two changes are more debatable and personally I would have pushed Bruno deeper instead of out to the right but I could understand the change.
Fred on for Eriksen was the right change, and is something that ETH not doing was widely considered a mistake in other matches. Eriksen tends to struggle after 60 minutes or so. Unfortunately Fred ended up having one of his shit matches where he forgets how to pass a ball, which tends to happen a couple of times a season. You can't really plan for that. Sancho on for Martial made sense since we do have to protect Martial, and it's not like he was playing particularly well at that point. The other two changes are more debatable and personally I would have pushed Bruno deeper instead of out to the right but I could understand the change.
I think it's obvious that Weghorst wouldn't have been on United's scouting radar. So it was probably Ten hags idea to get him on loan, maybe he actively pushed for him over other options. Could be trying to justify that.
Well I hope that's what it is anyway as opposed to anything to do with him coming here permanently.
I agree. But he'll cause disruption at the least. And he's seemingly better in his own box than attacking with his head.
Trophies are never "worthless" - assuming we remain in the top 4 until the end of the season, we'll have had a better season than the "mighty" Arsenal, because we've actually won something.
I’d break the bank now to get Johnny Hindsight from 2055. That’ll definitely fix this problem.
In some way, our subs show something about how big genius Pep is. 
Manager of Man Utd picks between Elanga, Wout, Malacia and Pellistri.
Pep brings in Foden, Mahrez, Walker, Silva, Laporte....pure instinct by him.
Damn, i hate that fraud.
Manager of Man Utd picks between Elanga, Wout, Malacia and Pellistri.
Pep brings in Foden, Mahrez, Walker, Silva, Laporte....pure instinct by him.
Damn, i hate that fraud.
And me. We would be scraping the barrel
Yes. We need you as our manager.
We are making normal subs to keep players fresh during fixture congestion so we can deal with a hectic schedule despite a meh squad.
Ten Hag has also had the most goals in the league from subs this season and has changed multiple games positively because of his subs. Sometimes doesn't work out, it's normal.
Ten Hag has also had the most goals in the league from subs this season and has changed multiple games positively because of his subs. Sometimes doesn't work out, it's normal.
He didn’t buy him. And I think ten Hag has more integrity - and sense - than to do that. Let’s give the manager another season at least before he’s inevitably found to be less able than the CAF.
Against, Weghorst had 8 touches, 6 passes with pass completion of 66.7% against Spurs. Second lowest. Only better than DDG whose spammed 25 long ball.
Against Brighton, Weghorst had 11 touches, 7 passes with pass completion of 14.3%. Lowest.
Against Nottingham Forest, Weghorst had 12 touches, 8 passes with pass completion of 62.5%. Second lowest. Better than Fred at 55.6%.
Then tbf, against Everton, Weghorst had 4 touches, 4 passes with pass completion of 100%.
I don't have access to the stats against Newcastle in League Cup final, but I recall reading that his pas completion for the at game was lowest too. That's supposed his good game.
His stats fluctuates similar to Fred's. Not a sign of safe passer.
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this place
Fred coming on for Erikson made sense. We had a 2-0 lead that got trimmed to 2-1 and we were looking vulnerable. It only made sense to take off Erikson and bring on someone who is a little better defensively and has more energy. Hindsight is an amazing thing though, as people are now saying that was a poor sub. Had Erikson been left on and Tottenham tied it up, the same people would probably be saying "why didn't ETH bring on Fred?" That's where it all ends though. I'd understand bringing Malacia on and moving Dalot to the right if it happened earlier. Richarlson was finding space behind AWB with some of his runs, so it would make sense to move Dalot over as he's better at defending "off the ball" runners than AWB is. But Richarlson was already subbed out, so that never should have happened. He also shouldn't have taken Antony off as he works hard in both ends of the field. And what was even worse was to bring Wout on and move Bruno to the right. Are we seriously moving Bruno out of his best position in favour of Wout? WTF? It also changed our entire right side of the field. It's one thing to bring on subs to change a game up. But ETH's subs made no sense and made us weaker. And the Wout experiment has to stop. At this point I'd rather just see Elanga if he insists on bringing on a striker
In some way, our subs show something about how big genius Pep is.
Manager of Man Utd picks between Elanga, Wout, Malacia and Pellistri.
Pep brings in Foden, Mahrez, Walker, Silva, Laporte....pure instinct by him.
Damn, i hate that fraud.
I hate Pep too, but let's be honest, he's there for so long and had time to build the squad he wanted. Also none of the players you mentioned could of been unattainable by us, if any of our past managers really wanted them, excluding Foden obviously.
Clearly you haven't grasped the concept of a 'forum'...probably why you're stuck in the newbies....
In some way, our subs show something about how big genius Pep is.
Manager of Man Utd picks between Elanga, Wout, Malacia and Pellistri.
Pep brings in Foden, Mahrez, Walker, Silva, Laporte....pure instinct by him.
Damn, i hate that fraud.
I think by only focusing on City you miss the point which is being made.
You can be of the opinion that our squad needs major surgery whilst also believing that ETHs subs could have been better lately.
Constantly bringing on Weghorst is killing us. He offers no threat in behind and allows teams to push 10/15 yards higher. Elanga, for example, might be a limited player but he would keep the opposition honest with his pace - or enable us to keep Rashford/Martial through the middle and Bruno central.
Likewise we all know Fred is terrible on the ball, so if you bring him into a game where you're already struggling to retain possession, how is that going to help? We had Sabitzer sat on the bench, so there was another option.
I am a huge advocate of ETH but what I want to see from any manager is them learning from experience and past mistakes.
I was annoyed after Sevilla at home because I thought ETHs had tossed the game away, but I didnt make a thread because I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Now I see exactly the same mistake made again in another important game and it worries me. What's his end-game with Weghorst? Is he now just so invested in him personally that he wants to justify his decision constantly?
Wegorst is doing his best, but he's atrocious and a poor fit to play the style of football which suits his teammates. ETH consistently using him is baffling to me, I cant comprehend what he thinks he is bringing?
Fred shouldnt be near a United side either. The evidence is there time and time again. Aside from the very occasional good performance or good moment, he's been seriously poor and a bad fit for a team with aspirations to control football matches. Yet here he is, still being used. Freeze him out. Send a message to the Board - "this player is not even suitable for 20 minutes off the bench, we must invest".
I am not happy with his in game decisions too. That is his biggest flaw imo. Based on what we saw this year. I don't know how he was in Ajax regarding that.
Are people forgetting earlier on in the season where his subs helped us see through multiple games/won us points? I'm sure there was a thread here earlier in the season about how his tactical substitutions were genius. Understandable as we go through a season and we lose players to injury, the substitution options become more limited, and its more difficult to get right. We started to look real tired against Spurs so he had to change something and he got it wrong this time, but he did not have a lot of choice off of the bench. Sabitzer instead of Fred was maybe the only other choice he could have made, with Pellistri an option he didn't use either.
If we had more players available in centre back for example he may have had more full backs to bring on to freshen it up, Shaw would have been at left back, and Dalot/Wan Bissaka could have come off the bench for one another instead. And for all the criticism, McTominay's strength on the ball and ability to drive up the pitch with the ball would have been a really big option to have on the bench in that game. And at the same time, we have seen how great Garnacho has been coming off the bench and scaring tired defences, so that is arguably another big miss.
Injuries are part and parcel and you have to get on with it, but I think its important to remember where we are, and ordinarily we would have comfortably seen the Spurs game out imo, but a mix of injuries and the extra time at the weekend just stretched us a little too thin this time. Seems silly to get hung up on his 'subs being bad' to me.
If we had more players available in centre back for example he may have had more full backs to bring on to freshen it up, Shaw would have been at left back, and Dalot/Wan Bissaka could have come off the bench for one another instead. And for all the criticism, McTominay's strength on the ball and ability to drive up the pitch with the ball would have been a really big option to have on the bench in that game. And at the same time, we have seen how great Garnacho has been coming off the bench and scaring tired defences, so that is arguably another big miss.
Injuries are part and parcel and you have to get on with it, but I think its important to remember where we are, and ordinarily we would have comfortably seen the Spurs game out imo, but a mix of injuries and the extra time at the weekend just stretched us a little too thin this time. Seems silly to get hung up on his 'subs being bad' to me.
Yeah so a mate of mine made the point recently that ETHs subs when we are chasing a game are usually good but when we're controlling a game and/or trying to wrestle back control, they have largely been poor.
Now, I totally get the argument about depth. 100% on board with that. However, a) he bought Malacia and Weghorst in and b) the lads he is bringing off the bench are still international footballers. Weaker clubs with weaker squads manage to effect games from the bench, so I'm not sure he should get a free pass.
Part of the issue is he NEVER changes the formation. So when lads come in who are weaker players, they're massively exposed. If you bought Weghorst, Malacia and Fred on, dropped into a 4-5-1 and went long, you might get away with grinding out a game. We dont do that though. We bring the weaker lads on and still demand we play the same way. I wouldnt mind a bit of pragmatism from time to time when needs must
It makes sense if you understand basic levels of sports science.
The Sevilla game granted was really frustrating and his subs in that game arguably made it worse. We were really poor full stop, but Sevilla just have some sort of weird hoodoo in the Europa League. And besides the poor performance, I'm still extremely bitter that Bruno was unavailable for the second leg because of that 'handball'.
But for me the Spurs game wasn't anywhere near as bad, I don't feel like the subs were all that important in the result, Spurs were making a comeback in the second half with or without the subs. They had to give a reaction to the Newcastle, and at the same time I always expected us to fade as that game went on, due to the extra time at the weekend. Subs had to be made at some point due to that, now granted it's unfortunate it went a little wrong, but we are still in a very strong position for the rest of the season. Also, another key moment to dwell on was Bruno's effort that hit the bar immediately after they got their first goal back, had that gone in and made it 3-1 at that moment in time, we would all be having a very different conversation about the result and the substitutions.
That's an interesting take, I have said in conversation during a game before that I don't like how, quite often he goes defensive, there have been occasions of taking off the striker with a 1 goal lead and then we seem to almost immediately concede. So he may be onto something. Without going back through it on a game by game basis though, I have no idea if this holds completely through the season. Maybe it is recency bias that leads me to agree with your mates thoughts, and there have been games where the opposite is true, but it's certainly an interesting topic to think about.
That is true and you are right they are international footballers. Most players have patches of good form and patches of bad form. I think Malacia has been very good at times this season, but he certainly isn't good at the moment. Whether It's just unfortunate timing coinciding with our injuries or, should instead be telling that his bad patch has come arguably when we need to rely on him most I am not sure. I am hoping it is coincidental and maybe more linked to fixture congestion, lack of training time and other factors like that. On paper again it wasn't a bad substitution and I guess Ten Hag was wary of Tottenham rolling around all the time trying to buy free kicks, maybe he was guessing they would be trying to get AWB sent off, so he felt he had to make a decision.
Weghorst I completely understand the question marks, he seems to be a bit marmite to the fanbase, due to the lack of quality, but phenomenal effort he puts in. He was pretty much an emergency signing, so I think that gives him a bit of pass too, it's not like we had any money to bring someone better in, and the Ronaldo issue needed sorting, so as a short term option I think he was a good signing.
I thought that while there were problems with him that people are highlighting in the Spurs game, like the passing stats up the page, to me he did most of his job well while on the pitch, was important when defending corners, and I felt he was rushing the Spurs defenders at times, generally making them uncomfortable, and didn't strike me as a standout poor performer?
I'm not sure I would agree on the lack of formation change as such, there have been times this season when he's brought another CB on and gone to a back 3, or left us without a striker on the pitch. I wouldn't say he has been that successful when he has done this however, or that he has even done so all that frequently, so you may still have a point. So it's probably fair to say he needs to come up with a better plan when trying to see games out.
But for me the Spurs game wasn't anywhere near as bad, I don't feel like the subs were all that important in the result, Spurs were making a comeback in the second half with or without the subs. They had to give a reaction to the Newcastle, and at the same time I always expected us to fade as that game went on, due to the extra time at the weekend. Subs had to be made at some point due to that, now granted it's unfortunate it went a little wrong, but we are still in a very strong position for the rest of the season. Also, another key moment to dwell on was Bruno's effort that hit the bar immediately after they got their first goal back, had that gone in and made it 3-1 at that moment in time, we would all be having a very different conversation about the result and the substitutions.
That's an interesting take, I have said in conversation during a game before that I don't like how, quite often he goes defensive, there have been occasions of taking off the striker with a 1 goal lead and then we seem to almost immediately concede. So he may be onto something. Without going back through it on a game by game basis though, I have no idea if this holds completely through the season. Maybe it is recency bias that leads me to agree with your mates thoughts, and there have been games where the opposite is true, but it's certainly an interesting topic to think about.
That is true and you are right they are international footballers. Most players have patches of good form and patches of bad form. I think Malacia has been very good at times this season, but he certainly isn't good at the moment. Whether It's just unfortunate timing coinciding with our injuries or, should instead be telling that his bad patch has come arguably when we need to rely on him most I am not sure. I am hoping it is coincidental and maybe more linked to fixture congestion, lack of training time and other factors like that. On paper again it wasn't a bad substitution and I guess Ten Hag was wary of Tottenham rolling around all the time trying to buy free kicks, maybe he was guessing they would be trying to get AWB sent off, so he felt he had to make a decision.
Weghorst I completely understand the question marks, he seems to be a bit marmite to the fanbase, due to the lack of quality, but phenomenal effort he puts in. He was pretty much an emergency signing, so I think that gives him a bit of pass too, it's not like we had any money to bring someone better in, and the Ronaldo issue needed sorting, so as a short term option I think he was a good signing.
I thought that while there were problems with him that people are highlighting in the Spurs game, like the passing stats up the page, to me he did most of his job well while on the pitch, was important when defending corners, and I felt he was rushing the Spurs defenders at times, generally making them uncomfortable, and didn't strike me as a standout poor performer?
I'm not sure I would agree on the lack of formation change as such, there have been times this season when he's brought another CB on and gone to a back 3, or left us without a striker on the pitch. I wouldn't say he has been that successful when he has done this however, or that he has even done so all that frequently, so you may still have a point. So it's probably fair to say he needs to come up with a better plan when trying to see games out.
Yep. Lets never make substitutions again in case they don't work
Ooh you’re so mean.
Tottenham scored their first goal before any subs were made and were pressing for a second one. The subs did't change anything.
He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He has to make subs to keep the team fresh on the pitch and for the remaining games. The problem is the quality of the squad is so poor, which is beyond his control at the moment.
I would criticise his using all the subs at home v Sevilla, that was silly. Why not keep one in reserve just in case someone got injured, which of course inevitably happened.
I agree, Weghorst is killing us. I don't know what he offers the team. Some people here have said his possession play is good, I don't know which player they've been watching the last 5 months. And his "pressing"? Sure, he runs around a lot but he's too slow to be an effective presser. Defenders just knock the ball around him like a dad playing in the garden with his kids.
And for a fella that's 7 foot 2 or whatever the f**k height he is, has he got within an ass's roar of winning a header from a corner for us? I can't remember any!
It kills me seeing him come on, and it must be a huge boost to the opposition.
I would criticise his using all the subs at home v Sevilla, that was silly. Why not keep one in reserve just in case someone got injured, which of course inevitably happened.
I agree, Weghorst is killing us. I don't know what he offers the team. Some people here have said his possession play is good, I don't know which player they've been watching the last 5 months. And his "pressing"? Sure, he runs around a lot but he's too slow to be an effective presser. Defenders just knock the ball around him like a dad playing in the garden with his kids.
And for a fella that's 7 foot 2 or whatever the f**k height he is, has he got within an ass's roar of winning a header from a corner for us? I can't remember any!
It kills me seeing him come on, and it must be a huge boost to the opposition.
A bench with Sabitzer, Garnacho, Sancho and Martial. Where the feck are the changes?
He's admiring Bruno on the left wing.
Get Antony off. Offers nothing and is a walking red card
Make a fecking sub!
fecking who tho? McTominay or Martial? That sounds hopeful….
At martial would mean rashford doesn't play no9