The 'Stop Making Fecking Subs ETH' Thread

Lentwood

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What's with these arbitrary, random substitutions we keep seeing when we're ahead in games?

Why are we taking off players who are playing well and contributing and bringing on sub-standard players like Fred, Weghorst and Malacia? It makes no sense.
 
He has to make subs as the team has been run into the ground chasing a bunch of worthless cup competitions.
 
joedirt87 said:
He has to make subs as the team has been run into the ground chasing a bunch of worthless cup competitions.
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If that's the case he needs to be smarter with it. He blew the tie against Sevilla with his pointless substitutions and he blew the chance to lock down top four tonight.

When you introduce wildcards like Weghorst, Fred and Malacia who cant keep the ball, you're just inviting a tonne of pressure
 
I think we were heading for trouble for fifteen minutes before he made the first subs on the hour. They didn't work but that doesn't mean we didn't need changes. We're threadbare at moment and the boss knows it as much as anyone I'm sure.
 
Lentwood said:
If that's the case he needs to be smarter with it. He blew the tie against Sevilla with his pointless substitutions and he blew the chance to lock down top four tonight.

When you introduce wildcards like Weghorst, Fred and Malacia who cant keep the ball, you're just inviting a tonne of pressure
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And if he'd have kept Eriksen and Sancho on, they wouldn't have done anything to stem the tide that had already turned. A common theme with both this year has been legs going in the second half, let alone 3 days after extra time in a semi final (more on Eriksen than Sancho).

Fred on paper made sense. High energy, legs and physicality to try and nick the ball back and put pressure on them.
But maybe ten Hag told him to pass to spurs every chance he got and not track runners? I'm not sure.
 
Shifting Bruno cost us the game imo

We were the team pushing for the win and our best player to create something is sidelined to accommodate weghorst and martial, 2 creative non entities
 
Lentwood said:
If that's the case he needs to be smarter with it. He blew the tie against Sevilla with his pointless substitutions and he blew the chance to lock down top four tonight.

When you introduce wildcards like Weghorst, Fred and Malacia who cant keep the ball, you're just inviting a tonne of pressure
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Yep it's maddening. Sabitzer on the bench but brings on Weghorst.
 
Subs are a bit of a distraction, we just came out looking shite in the second half even before the subs. Some kind of mentality problem. Then yeah the subs didn't help.
 
We were losing control before the subs were made. If we had conceded goals and no subs had been made then people would moan about that, needing fresh players on the pitch etc.

Reality is a fair few of our squad still needs shifting in the summer
 
I don't think most of the subes weren't sensible. Fred for Eriksen is good one, we needed some energy in midfield. Malacia for AWB, same. You could argue Martial for Sancho wasn't needed but guess with Rashford's pace he'd be more dangerous on countres than Sancho at LW. One sub that I didn't get was Weghorst for Antony and good thing from it is Antony will have some energy for Villa game.

It's just that subs didn't work out tonight and we don't have much quality besides first 11.
 
Bubz27 said:
And if he'd have kept Eriksen and Sancho on, they wouldn't have done anything to stem the tide that had already turned. A common theme with both this year has been legs going in the second half, let alone 3 days after extra time in a semi final (more on Eriksen than Sancho).

Fred on paper made sense. High energy, legs and physicality to try and nick the ball back and put pressure on them.
But maybe ten Hag told him to pass to spurs every chance he got and not track runners? I'm not sure.
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So use Elanga for his pace in behind and bring Sabitzer on.

If you absolutely MUST bring Fred on, bring him on as a presser, higher up the pitch, away from our goal. Having a player in CM who constantly turns over possession is a huge problem when defending a lead

The other problem is he has this obsession with Weghorst. When Weghorst comes on, that gives teams license to push 10/15 yards up the pitch and press us higher because he is so slow.

Plus, lest we forget...it is actually allowed to change tactics in a game. If we're tired, instead of bringing on the same old substandard crap, why not sit in deeper and try to counter?
 
Tonight at least I raised my eyebrows a bit as Martial was brought on for Sancho, but it's hardly his fault Fred played a real stinker reminiscent of some of his worst performances for us.
 
Irwin99 said:
We were losing control before the subs were made. If we had conceded goals and no subs had been made then people would moan about that, needing fresh players on the pitch etc.

Reality is a fair few of our squad still needs shifting in the summer
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People are aware of this and I forgive anybody a mistake but he keeps making the same mistake. The obsession with giving Weghorst minutes is killing us.
 
He's got to work with what he has. And he has some real horrible players as subs. Maybe he has to take the plunge, be brave and replace a few of the senior players out there with some academy players.
 
I think the biggest problem is he throws in too much players at the same time.
I also don’t know if extra substitutes since corona are actually helpful, changing too much players has a negative effect on games, we see this each year in friendlies as well. Changing too much at once changes the dynamics and intensity too much especially when your opponent hasn’t done much substitutes yet
 
It wasn't long ago people were complaining he didn't rotate enough. There's a reason why he started a team filled with players that mostly played 120 minutes a few days ago. The bench players are just not good enough.
 
Lentwood said:
So use Elanga for his pace in behind and bring Sabitzer on.

If you absolutely MUST bring Fred on, bring him on as a presser, higher up the pitch, away from our goal. Having a player in CM who constantly turns over possession is a huge problem when defending a lead

The other problem is he has this obsession with Weghorst. When Weghorst comes on, that gives teams license to push 10/15 yards up the pitch and press us higher because he is so slow.

Plus, lest we forget...it is actually allowed to change tactics in a game. If we're tired, instead of bringing on the same old substandard crap, why not sit in deeper and try to counter?
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Do you seriously think Elanga makes a difference? I can refer you to his last substitute appearance when he did both Elanga and guess what, ten Hag got slated.

Weghorst I'll give you and it makes better sense in my opinion to get Sabitzer on there. But Spurs were winning a lot of near post headers from corners, so I can see some but of logic with getting Weghorst on. But still, I'd rather see Sabitzer in that instance. Also worth remembering, the only reason we have Weghorst is ten Hag had his hands tied to loans only in Jan.

And going deep and countering would be interesting. Personally this season, as long as we get top 4 and we have a trophy and the chance for another, I don't mind seeing ten Hag sticking to his principles. I've maintained all season, beyond the first XI, not only does the quality drop off, but the technical ability and fragile mentalities really drop off as well.

If we're doing the same in 6 months, I'd start to worry. But right now, I think we're in a good place with ten Hag with some clear improvements to make.
 
It’ll sure I’m forgetting some occasions but it seems like every time we push Bruno to the wing we lose any semblance of control and constant attacking threat, I don’t know why we keep on doing it.
 
Lentwood said:
So use Elanga for his pace in behind and bring Sabitzer on.

If you absolutely MUST bring Fred on, bring him on as a presser, higher up the pitch, away from our goal. Having a player in CM who constantly turns over possession is a huge problem when defending a lead

The other problem is he has this obsession with Weghorst. When Weghorst comes on, that gives teams license to push 10/15 yards up the pitch and press us higher because he is so slow.

Plus, lest we forget...it is actually allowed to change tactics in a game. If we're tired, instead of bringing on the same old substandard crap, why not sit in deeper and try to counter?
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Fair comments. Erik was just talking here that he wanted us to squeeze out after they'd played the balls into the danger zone but we didn't/couldn't, which obviously disappointed him. The changes of personnel were there to complement us staying solid and hitting them on the counter but it never happened, because we turned the ball over time and again.

I'm not saying Fred is Xavi but Erik has every right to expect him (and Casemiro) to provide better short range passing under pressure than that fecking shite tonight. He brought Elanga on against Sevilla and while he wasn't personally responsible for the collapse he's proven he's not a natural game changer by any stretch, so I can understand why he didn't turn to him today. Sab is on the bench because there's nobody else, I don't know if he's 100% fit to be honest. Weghorst and Malacia are lads he trusts to do 'a job', you could be forgiven for asking what the feck that job is meant to entail (in the case of the latter he's been glaringly bad recently) but I think it's a reflection of how bare the cupboard is at the moment that he's having to turn to these guys game after game.

Despite my best impression of Erik's PR man I don't think he's beyond criticism but I don't see clear and obvious alternatives to bringing on substandard players and crossing his fingers at present.
 
Kopral Jono said:
Tonight at least I raised my eyebrows a bit as Martial was brought on for Sancho, but it's hardly his fault Fred played a real stinker reminiscent of some of his worst performances for us.
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At the time i thought it was a smart sub. Tottenham had a lot of the ball and we just kept giving it away every time we got it. Martial usually is very good at keeping the ball in the team. Martial isnt the best goalscorer but pass him the ball when he has his back towards the goal and he will keep and pass the ball to someone who is wearing the same colour of shirt. Dont think the sub was bad but just like the Fred sub, the player coming on was having a really bad day.
 
The way the subs performed when they came on was impressively poor. I get the need to make changes, because we're knackered. But they came on and disrupted everything.
 
Subs/changes needed with the long hectic season including 120 minutes on Sunday has taken it's toll on the starters. Subs options are a joke for a club as big as United, teams down in the relegation zone get more of impact off their subs.
 
Judas said:
We'd be in even worse shape if this was the case, it's a miracle we've got the 5 sub rule. Sadly we don't have the squad to fully take advantage of it.
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Subbing player who can't run anymore is fine and logical.
But only Eriksen was subbed because of that today. I think.
 
Lentwood said:
What's with these arbitrary, random substitutions we keep seeing when we're ahead in games?

Why are we taking off players who are playing well and contributing and bringing on sub-standard players like Fred, Weghorst and Malacia? It makes no sense.
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Why people think they are random? Eriksen was tired and MF need some extra teeth, only problem was Fred, who was a big disappointment.

Threat was coming from both sides, hence fullback needs replacement. AAW was ball watching 1st goal and most of 2nd half, hence has to be sub as well.
 
RedOrange said:
We're supposed to believe you wouldn't be skewering ETH for bringing Elanga on?
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I dont think I have criticised ETH once all season, this is the first time.

I thoughts his subs vs Sevilla were bad. Weghorst changed the game in that match and handed them the initiative. Same again last night. He allows teams to squeeze us up the pitch and put us under pressure. At least Elanga keeps them honest
 
'we need more rotation, we are knackered '

Manager makes changes and rotates

'what the feck is EtH doing, shouldn't have made changes'

Also United fans: 'Elanga isn't even Championship standard , he shouldn't be playing for United'

He doesn't play

'Elanga should play, can't believe EtH didn't bring him on'.

The phrase damned if you do, damned if you don't springs to mind here.
 
Dear me, this place would suck the life out of you, from "Make a fecking Sub" thread to this?
 
Champ said:
'we need more rotation, we are knackered '

Manager makes changes and rotates

'what the feck is EtH doing, shouldn't have made changes'

Also United fans: 'Elanga isn't even Championship standard , he shouldn't be playing for United'

He doesn't play

'Elanga should play, can't believe EtH didn't bring him on'.

The phrase damned if you do, damned if you don't springs to mind here.
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Obviously, it's so easy to have a gameplan from the couch.

The reality is:
- We have injuries
- Our starters are obviously tired or coming back from injury
- Our subs are shit
- Eth needs to balance the fatigue with shiteness and come up with a mix of something good. Not easy.
 
Fred sub made sense and was logical. WW one wasnt. Subs needed to be the done.
 
Bizarre thread. We were getting smashed and the goal was coming. They scored. So he brought Fred and martial on - he wanted to bring them on before the goal. Then we continued to get smashed with our right side continually allowing crosses and overloads so he completely changed it with Dalot and Bruno. It didn’t work but to suggest we didn’t need to make changes is fecking baffling.

This was a combination of attitude issues yet again - players sauntering around not doing their work which was also there in the first half but Spurs were genuinely hopeless - alongside our huge weakness which is first phase possession and controlling games. You can’t control games when DDG goes long repeatedly when we’re under the slightest pressure and Casemiro repeatedly gives the ball away thinking he’s playing for the other team. We have huge build up issues anytime we play away from home and the opposition has a semblance of intensity. It happens regardless of who plays. That has sod all to do with subs. De Bruyne said in the week the thing they train most on is goal kicks - and how to work the ball the first 55 metres. It is the most important part of football - getting the ball to your attackers. First half Spurs didn’t press - we were fine playing the ball out. Second half until 2-2 they did and we crumbled. Again.

If DDG is our first choice keeper next year we may as well all go home.
 
People need to get themselves on the touchline and stop wasting their expertise on here.
 
Judas said:
The way the subs performed when they came on was impressively poor. I get the need to make changes, because we're knackered. But they came on and disrupted everything.
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I agree. Weird thread that. We lost control way before the subs. Casemiro was having a mare, Fred was even worse but that was a rational choice ("on paper"). You can argue Wout vs Sabitzer but there's not much between them if we don't even have the ball.
Strange that so many people think he made clear errors with the subs.

The fact we're knackered isn't even that important, Casemiro and Fred were pure shit simply.

Andycoleno9 said:
Subbing player who can't run anymore is fine and logical.
But only Eriksen was subbed because of that today. I think.
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Sancho and Antony almost always are subbed 60-70 minutes in, you think this is because ETH wants to give more minutes to Wout, Elanga and Sabitzer? I agree Eriksen is the one who "can't run" but Sancho and Antony were looking worse around 60 minute mark than at the beginning of the game and we were leaky on the wings.

There were games where ETH made clear mistakes with subs, this wasn't one IMO. He was on lost position anyway. Do people think if Erik went for Sabitzer/Elanga we don't concede xGA=2,2? It's that simple? Bare in mind we lost control way before the first sub.
 
The only questionable sub this game is Weghorst for Antony. Doesn't look like ETH tried to rest players, given he had Rashford played the full game here after going through the whole Brighton game. Bruno who had some sort of injury also played full game. Having Weghorst as no 10 and put Bruno om the right, creating a disconnection between Bruno and Rashford.

Other subs are understandable, but with hindsight, Sabitzer for Eriksen would have been better.
 
Just fill the team with better players so we don't have to be worried about 2nd string being a total shite where the drop in quality is night and day plus the always injured players that ruin rythm.
 
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