The Road Trip Draft SF: Jim Beam vs Skizzo/Pat_Mustard

Who will win the match based on all the players at their peaks?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Yea, falcao would have been great as well but if the all time teams build around GOAT’s threads have shown anything, using Gullit in the central all in one beast role wins you brownie points and unmatchable balance. Started being funny the number of times he featured.

Regarding Jairzinho, besides Kalle, i couldn’t think of many others better to play that role.

Fair point, I struggled really to find a replacement for that RW outside Kalle. Not a bad suggesstion when you take into consideration you're giving Gullit that central role and more spotlight.

Edit: tbh I would still probably leave Jari there even with Jairzinho choice if we are talking about this specific system...
Off to bed, will see (and congratulate) in the morning as the result can still pretty much go either way. ;)
 
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I obviously wanted Scirea and after I couldn't get him tought for a second will I upgrade with Nesta (as crazy as that sound), but you can't really go with Vasovic into this stage no matter how good he was. The idea was what I lost with Vasovic and his style of play I will get with those 2 lightning FB-s while still having someone in defence who is great with the ball and upgrades my back 4 in defensive sense massively.

But, I do get what you mean, it crossed my mind also.

Nesta/Kohler is very close to as good as it gets in defensive terms and as you say it's not like you lack either quality in possession or attacking output in that back four, so I think it was a good reinforcement. It's just so tough to upgrade in terms of individual quality within that total football theme without sacrificng something of the theme along the way.
 
Rivaldo back in the team seems like a reinforcement on its own.

Like the balance between Stam and Beckenbauer, moving Desailly to midfield also creates a solid core and protects the back four when Beckenbauer runs up the pitch.

Jim Beam has also a great homage here, but feel Skizzo/Pat have more quality across the park and will edge this one.
 
Neeskens is playing for the wrong side here, stick him in Beam's team at RCM and the team is almost perfect.

Also add Krol at LB and it makes one of my favourite Cruyff setups created.
 
Neeskens is playing for the wrong side here, stick him in Beam's team at RCM and the team is almost perfect.

Also add Krol at LB and it makes one of my favourite Cruyff setups created.

Thought Jim Beam would take Krol as a reinforcement but he already had 2 Dutch players.. It’s a great build already to be fair
 
Did either team upgrade in reinforcements? I feel like both sides are basically the same as before quality wise and maybe even a little worse synergy wise

Finally getting Desailly into that DM position was huge for us IMO. He was a great CB but as a DM he's close to peerless. When we picked Johnstone I assumed we could take him all the way to the final but he wasn't getting much love in our previous matches and Matthews seems to be seen as a tier above.
 
Finally getting Desailly into that DM position was huge for us IMO. He was a great CB but as a DM he's close to peerless. When we picked Johnstone I assumed we could take him all the way to the final but he wasn't getting much love in our previous matches and Matthews seems to be seen as a tier above.

Yeah, Desailly seems to be rated a lot higher on here as a DM than I initially thought he'd be. I always felt he was a CB who occasionally played as a DM but it looks like people really prefer to see him as a DM.
 
Yeah, Desailly seems to be rated a lot higher on here as a DM than I initially thought he'd be. I always felt he was a CB who occasionally played as a DM but it looks like people really prefer to see him as a DM.

He played at DM throughout his whole Milan career as far as I know, which was his physical peak. I'd assume he filled in at CB there occasionally but I don't remember seeing him do that at the time and I haven't subsequently stumbled across any Milan matches with him at CB either. There's similarities to Rijkaard I suppose in that they were both clearly capable of playing at CB during their athletic peaks even though both played more often in midfield. Rijkaard had Euro 88 as a CB in that prime period, and Desailly had Euro 96 then WC 98 and Euro 2000 towards the end of his peak.
 
Finally getting Desailly into that DM position was huge for us IMO. He was a great CB but as a DM he's close to peerless. When we picked Johnstone I assumed we could take him all the way to the final but he wasn't getting much love in our previous matches and Matthews seems to be seen as a tier above.

I actually thought you had Desailly last round :nervous:
 
He played at DM throughout his whole Milan career as far as I know, which was his physical peak. I'd assume he filled in at CB there occasionally but I don't remember seeing him do that at the time and I haven't subsequently stumbled across any Milan matches with him at CB either. There's similarities to Rijkaard I suppose in that they were both clearly capable of playing at CB during their athletic peaks even though both played more often in midfield. Rijkaard had Euro 88 as a CB in that prime period, and Desailly had Euro 96 then WC 98 and Euro 2000 towards the end of his peak.
I think Desailly himself preferred center back position (although he obviously was amazing at both).
 
Ah yes I think I'm sleepposting

:lol: It's been a pain in the arse waiting for a good Beckenbauer foil to become available so we could move Desailly to DM.

I think Desailly himself preferred center back position (although he obviously was amazing at both).

Yeah, he did say that.

At Stamford Bridge, you went from defensive midfielder to central defender. Why? Which position did you prefer?
Tom Penney, Manchester
The game is much more tactical in Italy and I was in a different phase, too. I managed to get by in midfield. In England I was in a period when I needed to get back to my original position, my real position, at centre-back. The game is so much quicker in England, there’s no time to turn and you are fouled much more. I was heading towards the final years at the top level and I needed to be playing in the position where I was most comfortable.
Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/marcel-desailly-one-one#WQGDWehArhhkMRrw.99

It's mad as feck that he considers what he did in midfield as merely 'getting by' :lol:
 
Hard luck @Jim Beam . Brutal scoreline in the end that doesn't reflect how close the match would have been. Said to Skizzo in PM beforehand that I just hoped that we were playing you at the right time as the reinforcements were tough for you and maybe that proved to be the case. Also, hope the missus is doing better and everything's getting back to normal for you.
 
Probably would've voted for Skizzo if I was forced to choose. Lovely team @Jim Beam, my favourite one from the first round, but, as @Gio said, it had peaked a bit early — the reinforcements hadn't strengthen it as much as they should've.
 
Scoreline is much less tight than I thought it would be. I didn't vote as it was so close
 
Good luck in the final fellas! As for the result I was also on the other side in round 1 when the score went heavily for me and the sides were much closer, so it is all part of the game..

Anyway, great team and well deserved!


One final, emotional farewell to my bunch and their captain. GOAT (after Cantona of course)

 
Also, hope the missus is doing better and everything's getting back to normal for you.

Sorry, just seen this. Yea she's better, even managed to yell a bit this morning, meaning she's back on track very soon.

Thanks for understanding and waiting also.
 
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Sorry, just seen this. Yea she's better, even managed to yell a bit this morning, meaning she's back on track very soon.

Thanks for understanding and waiting also.

Is she yelling because you lost? If so good girl
 
Was discussing this with @2mufc0 the other day (he has attempted to build around the scheme twice and hit a snag in the final stages after fielding very competent teams in the initial rounds)...Totaalvoetbal just doesn't seem to be a reliable draft-winning formula, unless you're incredibly lucky with reinforcements. Has a high floor but a relatively lower ceiling for the most part, especially in partially restricted pools. Time and time again manager are quick out the gate with keenly balanced teams that are lauded by the draft enthusiasts and purists, but the inherent need for very precise fits tends to throw a spanner in the works because there's a constant internal tug of war between quality (usually in defensive positions...which inevitably renders the attack stale) and overall synergy (a diminishing asset towards the SF and Final stages).



You could argue that the progression of Jim's team is quite similar to 2mufc0's — strong start but tricky upgrades, and the attack isn't sufficiently reinforced — which undermines the entire operation. Anyhow, back to this match — well played @Jim Beam and @Skizzo/@Pat_Mustard! :)
 
@Invictus

Disagree re the auction trade draft - we could have won that I think had I not been sidetracked by the 3-3-3-1 idea (though I still believe that’s a purer version of total football). We had a lot of debate and in hindsight 4-3-3 would have been the simpler approach.

Krol instead of Davids would have given this which is about a clean a Dutch total football theme as you’ll realistically get:

Also remember the auction draft was more restrictive than the current one, so you wouldn’t face a team like Skizzo/Pat now (Beckenbauer, Muller, Neeskens, Carlos, Desailly - teams were nothing like that stacked, which is where players like Haan and Jansen far exceed their value).

Of course that’s not to say we would have won it, the team didn’t have the same positive support from certain regulars that Jim Beam’s remake has received in this draft.

 
Was discussing this with @2mufc0 the other day (he has attempted to build around the scheme twice and hit a snag in the final stages after fielding very competent teams in the initial rounds)...Totaalvoetbal just doesn't seem to be a reliable draft-winning formula, unless you're incredibly lucky with reinforcements. Has a high floor but a relatively lower ceiling for the most part, especially in partially restricted pools. Time and time again manager are quick out the gate with keenly balanced teams that are lauded by the draft enthusiasts and purists, but the inherent need for very precise fits tends to throw a spanner in the works because there's a constant internal tug of war between quality (usually in defensive positions...which inevitably renders the attack stale) and overall synergy (a diminishing asset towards the SF and Final stages).

Pretty much. I already said I'm having more of a headache with reinforcements than it should be the case. It is not so hard to get the first 11 which are in tune with the system, but to upgrade them significantly is a bigger problem. Replacing one part and adding the other is really challenging without losing some of the synergies because (probably more than any other) the team is looked through the eyes like a sum of its parts and not just through the individual quality. Which is, considering the whole philosophy, understandable and the way it probably should be.
Still, it certainly can be done and for example, just the addition of Neeskens would give this team a very realistic chance imho.

On the side note, looking and going through total football principles in which every single player must be comfortable not just with the ball, but in a different position, a man can't help to think that this United is trying to do the opposite of it to the fullest extent. Bring on Palace!
 
That's fair, @Theon — I wasn't arguing that you guys couldn't have won that particular draft with more astute reinforcements in a 4-3-3, just using it as an example to highlight that a totaalvoetbal approach places a significant handicap on the manager (in contrast with a laissez faire 4-2-3-1 or a generic 5-2-1-2 where you have a greater pool of options and things aren't scrutinized as closely because you're targeting more generalized fits). It's definitely harder to incorporate even proven players like Koeman because they aren't rated particularly highly in Caf drafts, and someone like Burgnich also leaves something to be desired in that setup. The primary appeal of totaalvoetbal (i.e. pristine synergy to make the XI function at a level that surpasses the sum of individual components) tends to lose its value with qualitative upgrades that deviate even slightly from the pre-established norm...which remains a significant stumbling block. You tend to run into similar issues with something like Zona Mista as well, but they aren't as harsh as totaalvoetbal in relative terms, IMO, because the success and appeal is not as predicated on a seamless collective approach and you can get by with borderline systemic upgrades as long as they're of the requisite quality.
 
Was discussing this with @2mufc0 the other day (he has attempted to build around the scheme twice and hit a snag in the final stages after fielding very competent teams in the initial rounds)...Totaalvoetbal just doesn't seem to be a reliable draft-winning formula, unless you're incredibly lucky with reinforcements. Has a high floor but a relatively lower ceiling for the most part, especially in partially restricted pools. Time and time again manager are quick out the gate with keenly balanced teams that are lauded by the draft enthusiasts and purists, but the inherent need for very precise fits tends to throw a spanner in the works because there's a constant internal tug of war between quality (usually in defensive positions...which inevitably renders the attack stale) and overall synergy (a diminishing asset towards the SF and Final stages).



You could argue that the progression of Jim's team is quite similar to 2mufc0's — strong start but tricky upgrades, and the attack isn't sufficiently reinforced — which undermines the entire operation. Anyhow, back to this match — well played @Jim Beam and @Skizzo/@Pat_Mustard! :)
Yeah I'd agree with some of that. Thematic upgrades are harder because your pool is much thinner, probably compounded here because of the peculiarities around a Cruyff system. Same challenge faces Indnyc's United theme. That said, I think the major challenge for this theme was the nationality restriction, as otherwise I'm sure Jim would have loved to nab Neeskens and Gullit at p2-3, then Krol or even still Schweiny later on.
 
That's fair, @Theon — I wasn't arguing that you guys couldn't have won that particular draft with more astute reinforcements in a 4-3-3, just using it as an example to highlight that a totaalvoetbal approach places a significant handicap on the manager (in contrast with a laissez faire 4-2-3-1 or a generic 5-2-1-2 where you have a greater pool of options and things aren't scrutinized as closely because you're targeting more generalized fits). It's definitely harder to incorporate even proven players like Koeman because they aren't rated particularly highly in Caf drafts, and someone like Burgnich also leaves something to be desired in that setup. The primary appeal of totaalvoetbal (i.e. pristine synergy to make the XI function at a level that surpasses the sum of individual components) tends to lose its value with qualitative upgrades that deviate even slightly from the pre-established norm...which remains a significant stumbling block. You tend to run into similar issues with something like Zona Mista as well, but they aren't as harsh as totaalvoetbal in relative terms, IMO, because the success and appeal is not as predicated on a seamless collective approach and you can get by with borderline systemic upgrades as long as they're of the requisite quality.
To be fair not all of the players in a total football set up were really great fits to it historically. In drafts however it's always looked upon creating the best possible option which leaves little room for error and even one position could prove crucial to make or brake it in the eyes of voters.
 
How do people rate a team with Cruyff as a number 10 in a 4-2-3-1 or similar? Does it really have to be a totaalvoetbal approach for him to destroy teams? Just give him a free role and let him do whatever he wants, he'll boss it anyway IMO.

Totaalvoetbal just doesn't cut it in the business end of drafts as we see here. I mean, this is a fantastic team set up with a cool theme but it hasn't resulted in a win and that's a shame.
 
How do people rate a team with Cruyff as a number 10 in a 4-2-3-1 or similar? Does it really have to be a totaalvoetbal approach for him to destroy teams? Just give him a free role and let him do whatever he wants, he'll boss it anyway IMO.

Totaalvoetbal just doesn't cut it in the business end of drafts as we see here. I mean, this is a fantastic team set up with a cool theme but it hasn't resulted in a win and that's a shame.

Definitely wouldn't hurt if someone tries. This just seems like more of a challenge, especially taking into account Cruyff way of thinking. After all, it is the way he always looked at football, so it is natural to put him in such surroundings.

Personally, I would rate him as a number 10, but then again I would rate him as a GK also.
 
Would like to play him in a 4-4-2. I think @oneniltothearsenal did something like that, but it was a very sophisticated set up. No problems with him as a #10 behind a striker though.