The Road Trip Draft SF: Jim Beam vs Skizzo/Pat_Mustard

Who will win the match based on all the players at their peaks?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

Moby

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VS
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Jim Beam ----------------------VS----------------------------- Skizzo/Pat


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Jim Beam Tactics

Formation: 4-3-3


Playing style: fluid, high-tempo, attacking

We will stay true to our approach and playing style from the previous rounds and play the game that suits this team and it's set of players the most. Make the game as fast and open while going for the opponent throat and for the kill.

As before, we will stay true to the basic principles of total football giving not just Cruyff, but all the others around him the best possible platform to perform.


Attacking phase: make the pitch as big as you can while attacking and with the ball, stretch the opposition by providing numerous options each time our player is in possession.

Defensive phase: when we lose the ball, press the opposition, at times fanatically. Don't allow them time and space on the ball and constantly harass them. Make them into mistakes or into using long balls.


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To make everything above work you need fantastically technically-gifted players who are comfortable to play in multiple positions. In short, you need defenders who can attack and attackers who can defend. This team has exactly that in its personnel. Defending starts from the front by constantly pressing the back-line and the player who has the ball and attacking starts with building from the back with flying fullbacks who will stretch the opposition and be a valuable asset to the team, both offensively and defenssively.

"When you play a match, it is statistically proven that players actually have the ball 3 minutes on average … So, the most important thing is: what do you do during those 87 minutes when you do not have the ball."


Thoughts on the game

Brilliant team with GOAT presence in Gerd Muller and Beckenbauer with wonderful additions all around. We think, as fantastic Muller is, that he will have hard times dealing with not one, but two fantastic defenders and markers in Nesta and Kohler.
Opposition midfield is brilliant, but talking about work-rate, grit, technical ability think we just edge it as a unit and will run the game. Der Kaiser going into the midfield battle is negated by Cruyff on the other side and we feel this is not the perfect set-up and opposition for Beckenbauer to have his best game.

Overall, a game of fine margins which will go down to personal perferences. Think we have a bit more in our personnel to run/dictate the game, create more chances and win it in the end.


Skizzo/Pat Tactics

Formation: 4-3-3

We line up in a 4-3-3 formation featuring our new recruits, Dutch colossus Jaap Stam and evergreen dribbling legend Stanley Matthews. Franz Beckenbauer remains our star turn. Playing in a familiar setup and reunited with his greatest partner in crime Gerd Muller, we hope Beckenbauer will prove to be the decisive influence in this match.

Defence:

One of the very greatest goalkeepers ever in Peter Schmeichel is our last line of defence. Ahead of him, Beckenbauer marshals the defence, and the team as a whole, from his favoured RCB/libero position. Beckenbauer was simply the master of providing the ‘plus one’ in every area of the pitch as he strode forward, whilst maintaining a near sixth-sense in terms of fulfilling his defensive responsibilities. Jaap Stam slots in for Desailly as Der Kaiser's CB partner. Fast and supremely strong, Stam would figure highly in a list of ideal Beckenbauer foils, and he'll be invaluable in defending against Gullit's aerial threat. Flanking Beckenbauer at right back is one of the great defensive FBs in Victor Andrade. For anyone hoping to get a handle on Andrade Jr, this match vs Hungary is required viewing. He looks a player ahead of his time, both an athletic phenom and a wonderfully composed footballer. Tellingly, that superb Hungary team only edged past Andrade’s Uruguay after Andrade went off injured and the shackles were finally released from the great Zoltan Czibor. This is a familiar defensive structure for Beckenbauer, who once again finds himself flanked on the right by a defensive full back and partnered in central defence by an athletically-privileged and resolute stopper, with a buccaneering left back completing the defence. In this latter role Roberto Carlos provides a dynamic two-way flank presence, and he'll reprise his successful link-up for Brazil with Rivaldo and free up his countryman to wreak havoc in the inside channels.

Central Midfield:

The addition of Stam finally allows us to restore Marcel Desailly to his peak position. As great a CB as he was, he spent most of his monstrous peak at DM and is arguably the greatest ball-winner and pure defensive shield of all-time in that position. Partnering him is box to box hurricane Johan Neeskens. It’s the Beckenbauer/Neeskens link up that excites us most about our team, with their shared ability to defend to all-time great levels, before transitioning with dizzying technical ability and dynamism. After missing out on him during the initial drafting, we've finally landed Michael Laudrup, and with him the top-notch creativity and playmaking presence that we wanted to knit together our offence.

Attack:

The greatest big-match goalscorer of all-time spearheads our attack, and Muller will relish reuniting with his general Beckenbauer. He scarcely needed more than a half-chance to decide a match, but serviced by Rivaldo, Laudrup and Matthews he looks good value to score at least once. Rivaldo is restored to our lineup as a left-sided forward. He'll be in his element here playing off Muller, with Roberto Carlos providing the width in the outside left channel, and adds considerable reserves of flair, big match steel and goalscoring presence to the attack here. On the right wing, Stanley Matthews provides first-rate orthodox wing play. Capable of leaving even Nilton Santos with twisted blood when he was 41 years old, we're confident that he can get the better of Ashley Cole here, and provide us with a productive stream of crosses and cut-backs for the likes of Muller and Rivaldo.
 
Don't really get the Cole to Amoros upgrade, would have the former as the better left-back.
Think it was more just for the sake of it and the main upgrade is Nesta. Amoros was hitchhiked on the road.
 
Don't really get the Cole to Amoros upgrade, would have the former as the better left-back.
I would definitely have Amoros ahead of Cole in Cruyff's team. Although I'm not a big fan of Ashley. Amoros switched the flanks with ease (sometimes even throughout game), and I'd have him as a slightly weaker mirrored version of Brehme in terms of his versatility.
 
I would definitely have Amoros ahead of Cole in Cruyff's team. Although I'm not a big fan of Ashley. Amoros switched the flanks with ease (sometimes even throughout game), and I'd have him as a slightly weaker mirrored version of Brehme in terms of his versatility.
Yeah, agreed. Although Amoros was faster and more agile to Brehme.

Do you think Ashley was better defender than him tho? Can't make up my mind but would slightly prefer Cole here considering he's against Matthews.
 
Very interesting team by Skizzo/Pat. So many different players and playing styles. Ancient (and brilliant) right wing combo and a very modern Brazilian duo on the right; Laudrup and Neeskens paired with glamorous German spine and a no-nonsense duo of Desailly and Stam...


Yeah, agreed. Although Amoros was faster and more agile to Brehme.

Do you think Ashley was better defender than him tho? Can't make up my mind but would slightly prefer Cole here considering he's against Matthews.
He was such an astute tackler and a very physical player as well. Cole's games against young-ish Cristiano would be a good indication of him being up to the task though, but I'd still pick a more proactive and aggressive defender for Sjor's team.

(I love this, especially the second half, where he handles Careca and Socrates with such ease)

 
Very interesting team by Skizzo/Pat. So many different players and playing styles. Ancient (and brilliant) right wing combo and a very modern Brazilian duo on the right; Laudrup and Neeskens paired with glamorous German spine and a no-nonsense duo of Desailly and Stam...



He was such an astute tackler and a very physical player as well. Cole's games against young-ish Cristiano would be a good indication of him being up to the task though, but I'd still pick a more proactive and aggressive defender for Sjor's team.

(I love this, especially the second half, where he handles Careca and Socrates with such ease)


Was good against young-ish Messi as well, but I can see where you are coming from and I do agree that he's a better fit for Cruyff here, especially since he loved proactive left backs like Krol in his team.
 
Jim looking strong as feck as expected and I'd agree with what he said in his writeup about Nesta/Kohler providing stern resistance against Muller. The question mark with the Nesta upgrade is how well does that Nesta/Kohler duo mesh with the wider total football theme. Vasovic doesn't seem to be particularly loved here, but him stepping into midfield to launch attacks was a big feature of Ajax's game (later replicated by the likes of Blankenburg and Krol) and I don't think Nesta provides that to a similar degree.
 
Of course, I like both teams and both offensive strategies are brilliant.

I am potentially biased for having spent a lot of time to highlight 3 players part of one of the two teams.

But I think I have also voted for the team whose creative players can't be contained in this context & whose left side is a kind of magic.
 
Litmanen stands out like a sore thumb. With Gullit and Stoichkov there, he is more or less redundant. From what I recall, he was a very attacking player and a deep midfield roles is not really his niche.
Not really, he fits in quite nicely, and it's not a deep midfield role. If anything, Laudrup's position should raise more questions (although personally I think that both are okay here).
 
Not really, he fits in quite nicely, and it's not a deep midfield role. If anything, Laudrup's position should raise more questions (although personally I think that both are okay here).

He was at his best a AM/SS hybrid a very direct attacking player. With Gullit pretty much the same and far better and a cutting in Stoichkov on other flank, a pure playmaker would have been nice.

What's wrong with Laudrup? pretty much a perfect fit there.
 
Jim looking strong as feck as expected and I'd agree with what he said in his writeup about Nesta/Kohler providing stern resistance against Muller. The question mark with the Nesta upgrade is how well does that Nesta/Kohler duo mesh with the wider total football theme. Vasovic doesn't seem to be particularly loved here, but him stepping into midfield to launch attacks was a big feature of Ajax's game (later replicated by the likes of Blankenburg and Krol) and I don't think Nesta provides that to a similar degree.

I understand your rationale but it isn't a remake draft!

His back 4 provides sufficient talent and diversity in terms of offensive contribution.
 
At his best he was either a wide playmaker(on the left), false 9, or number 10 with a single striker.

Here he's more in the Iniesta role in Barca's 4-3-3.

Neeskens is not Xavi and Desailly is not Busquets so I think Laudrup has simply to be viewed as an advanced playmaker - rather inclined to play on the left - who will be benefit from the support of the pure defensive midfielder Desailly and the box-to-box Neeskens. If Laudrup acts a wide playmaker, you can be sure Rivaldo would move centrally.

The only challenge I see regarding the trio Rivaldo/Laudrup/RCarlos is to keep Dani Alves under control.
 
What team are you looking at? He's the most attacking player in a midfield 3.

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He was more of a SS than a #10. when he joined Ajax, he was disappointed because his favourite position was taken by Bergkamp.
Imo him and Gullit are overlap lot more than complement each other. I don't see Litmanen doing anything which Gullit won't already do in the team.

At his best he was either a wide playmaker(on the left), false 9, or number 10 with a single striker.

Here he's more in the Iniesta role in Barca's 4-3-3.

I always had Inside Left as his best fit. He doesn't have long speed to play truly out wide. Him and an Nesskens moving up will just be brilliant to watch.

Can understand why Joya got dropped for Rivaldo despite being a better fit therein.
 
Don't think Jim quite got the bang for his buck from the upgrades that he'd have liked. I'm counting 3 on full-backs alone without really improving a great deal on the starting pair of Junior/Bessonov. And where Jim is strong in attack, it's hard to envisage a better defence to negate those strengths man-for-man than that back four. Agree to some extent with Edgar on Litmanen standing out from a reputation perspective, but I'd be tempted to give him a pass given the obvious synergy with Cruyff, his overall work rate and having previous form against Desailly's Milan. Worth remembering how superior Ajax looked against Milan when Litmanen was buzzing around inbetween the lines.
 
You can question Litmanen quality considering who else is on the pitch but tactically he is spot on and he can play that role without blinking.
 
He was more of a SS than a #10. when he joined Ajax, he was disappointed because his favourite position was taken by Bergkamp.
Imo him and Gullit are overlap lot more than complement each other. I don't see Litmanen doing anything which Gullit won't already do in the team.
It's a bit like calling Platini an SS because he was Serie A top scorer 3 times. Obviously different players but you're letting his goalscoring influence your judgement too much. Take his goal against Desailly's Milan, for example — he isn't playing as a striker, he makes a run from the deep that leaves both center backs baffled, because they don't expect him there (although they should've).


He was a midfielder in Van Gaal's diamond and he participated in every phase of the game (his movement was outstanding — and not only in attack); it's a role that is perfect for him — especially because of Cruyff and the whole Beam's approach, I probably wouldn't play Litmanen there in general.
 
Litmanen is obviously a tier or two below the company he's in at this stage. Tbf he's gotten the hipster vote this time around and even with the favourable system I don't think he's gonna influence the game much. Skizzo-Pat have a much superior counterpart in Laudrup who would have a bigger impact on this game.
 
Don't think Jim quite got the bang for his buck from the upgrades that he'd have liked. I'm counting 3 on full-backs alone without really improving a great deal on the starting pair of Junior/Bessonov. And where Jim is strong in attack, it's hard to envisage a better defence to negate those strengths man-for-man than that back four. Agree to some extent with Edgar on Litmanen standing out from a reputation perspective, but I'd be tempted to give him a pass given the obvious synergy with Cruyff, his overall work rate and having previous form against Desailly's Milan. Worth remembering how superior Ajax looked against Milan when Litmanen was buzzing around inbetween the lines.

Just to touch on the Litmanen vs Desailly head to head record. Ajax did beat Milan in all three games they played that season, although Desailly didn't play in one of the group matches. I rewatched the CL final a few days ago to make a video of Desailly's performance:



Typically suffocating display from him, and Litmanen had very little impact on the match. Ajax circulated the ball very well as expected, but created very few chances until Kanu and then Kluivert came on. Milan were quite blunt as an attacking force (Massaro was shite and you wonder if the result would have been different if Savicevic had played) but still had the better chances, with Simone grafting away and managing some decent attempts at goal.

As Jim isn't around I'll make some attempt at balance and admit that Litmanen was brilliant in the group stage match that Ajax won 2-0, and overall I think he's a fine fit for the theme and that role. I was impressed with his graft in the final too - there was one great moment at 3:10 in the video where Desailly went upfield in open play into the Ajax penalty area to provide an aerial option for a Baresi long ball, and there was Litmanen tracking him all the way back there.
 
Litmanen is obviously a tier or two below the company he's in at this stage. Tbf he's gotten the hipster vote this time around and even with the favourable system I don't think he's gonna influence the game much. Skizzo-Pat have a much superior counterpart in Laudrup who would have a bigger impact on this game.

As Jim isn't around I'll make some attempt at balance and admit that Litmanen was brilliant in the group stage match that Ajax won 2-0, and overall I think he's a fine fit for the theme and that role. I was impressed with his graft in the final too - there was one great moment at 3:10 in the video where Desailly went upfield in open play into the Ajax penalty area to provide an aerial option for a Baresi long ball, and there was Litmanen tracking him all the way back there.

Yeah, nothing wrong with not seeing Litmanen as a match-winner here, considering the quality of players on the pitch (however good he was, he's one of the weakest ones), I just thought that Edgar's criticism of his role was unfair (and probably ill-informed).
 
Jim looking strong as feck as expected and I'd agree with what he said in his writeup about Nesta/Kohler providing stern resistance against Muller. The question mark with the Nesta upgrade is how well does that Nesta/Kohler duo mesh with the wider total football theme. Vasovic doesn't seem to be particularly loved here, but him stepping into midfield to launch attacks was a big feature of Ajax's game (later replicated by the likes of Blankenburg and Krol) and I don't think Nesta provides that to a similar degree.

I obviously wanted Scirea and after I couldn't get him tought for a second will I upgrade with Nesta (as crazy as that sound), but you can't really go with Vasovic into this stage no matter how good he was. The idea was what I lost with Vasovic and his style of play I will get with those 2 lightning FB-s while still having someone in defence who is great with the ball and upgrades my back 4 in defensive sense massively.

But, I do get what you mean, it crossed my mind also.

He was more of a SS than a #10. when he joined Ajax, he was disappointed because his favourite position was taken by Bergkamp.
Imo him and Gullit are overlap lot more than complement each other. I don't see Litmanen doing anything which Gullit won't already do in the team

Can you tell us was he also lonely leaving Finland so early? :D
It's not like I didn't spent last 2 games explaining why he is in the team, on that specific position.
That Ajax formation isn't much different from mine. Put Bastian and Voronin behind him and that's what you get.
I needed someone who has fantastic movement and is also great in harassing and pressing players. Most importantly, I needed someone who can play in midfield, but act like a striker when there is a gap upfront opened up for him by Cruyff. I understand it is not usual to see him in these stages, but imo I would only put Gullit (or Neeskens but I don't have him ) instead of him with Kalle in Gullit position as a significant upgrade no matter how strange it sounds.

Don't think Jim quite got the bang for his buck from the upgrades that he'd have liked. I'm counting 3 on full-backs alone without really improving a great deal on the starting pair of Junior/Bessonov. And where Jim is strong in attack, it's hard to envisage a better defence to negate those strengths man-for-man than that back four. Agree to some extent with Edgar on Litmanen standing out from a reputation perspective, but I'd be tempted to give him a pass given the obvious synergy with Cruyff, his overall work rate and having previous form against Desailly's Milan. Worth remembering how superior Ajax looked against Milan when Litmanen was buzzing around inbetween the lines.

Yeah Gio agree with that. It really doesn't look like much upgraded team since the first round which you can't really say for the opposition but tbf that front 6 was really hard to replace without losing some of the synergy that they give to the team. Yeah, even Litmanen. Especially, considering the restriction that were around and sticking with the theme from the start. Probably going 3-4-3 route or something would be a best idea looking at it now.

I think it is also a bit of a case where you can sell your trick only few times no matter how good that trick is... And after 3 rounds people do like to see something different than you banging on the same drum you were banging in the round 1. That's also fully understandable.
Especially, when the opposition is so damn good btw. :)
 
Did either team upgrade in reinforcements? I feel like both sides are basically the same as before quality wise and maybe even a little worse synergy wise
 
Did either team upgrade in reinforcements? I feel like both sides are basically the same as before quality wise and maybe even a little worse synergy wise

Think him putting Desailly on DM quality and synergy wise was pretty good move.

And I got Nesta, or from now in my book, a poor man's Vasovic..
 
Think Gullit in Litmanen's position and a suitable player like Jairzinho on the right would have been a nice change of pace.

Agree that the lineup did start to look stale no matter how good it was after 2 games.
 
Your defence is well rated by voters IMO

It was more of a joke tbf..

And an emotional connection with Vasovic while I was digging old articles about him and his heroic juorney through Yougoslavian league and early Ajax days. On that part every draft player can relate. :D
 
Think him putting Desailly on DM quality and synergy wise was pretty good move.

And I got Nesta, or from now in my book, a poor man's Vasovic..

Hah, I was hoping to see Vasovic here tbh but I understand the decision
 
It was more on him + Gullit than him alone. I had him in previous draft and believe he's quite underrated here. But then Gullit pretty much offers the same and is superior player. Don't really see a point in having both on team.

I think of Litmanen as the type of player that would work well in a Guardiola midfield 3. I'm not really sure about your point on Gullit and Litmanen not being a good fit, it depends on the tactics which I think Jimbo has done well with here. Look at City When Mahrez and Bernardo Silva play...both have a platform to perform well and make things happen despite occupying much of the same space for large periods of a game. For what it's worth, I think It works great here.
 
My turn to celebrate with you the only one Finnish who knows how to play football

 
Think Gullit in Litmanen's position and a suitable player like Jairzinho on the right would have been a nice change of pace.

Agree that the lineup did start to look stale no matter how good it was after 2 games.

Not sure about Jairzinho. Falcao on the other hand would be very good fit in this team imo.

And yeah, as been said it started to look a bit stale, definitely agree.
 
Dismissing litmanen as a hipster vote player seems dubious and not giving much respect to me. As i remember things he was already at the very top of the sport due to clearly being the best and most important player in those two Ajax CL campaigns and a controversial loser of the ballon d'or at the time, we're talking about someone who was now recognised widely as on track to greatness(at club level at least), the exact kind of player a "hipster" football fan at the time would be dismissive of in favour of someone else outwith big teams or leagues that looked good and played very well, but hadn't accomplished much or been given too much airtime ...an Ilya Tsymbalar or Rebrov\young Shevchenko or so would be a good example if you were from my way, or a young Zidane if you were French(who would need to be cast aside soon enough), a Le Tissier etc...

What Litmanen is in this kind of context decades later is someone we don't have as complete a picture of as most others due to bad injury problems. That can be every bit as much a benefit for a players reputation as it can be a drawback so i can understand someone not thinking he should be around at this stage of an all-time draft.
 
Not sure about Jairzinho. Falcao on the other hand would be very good fit in this team imo.

And yeah, as been said it started to look a bit stale, definitely agree.

Yea, falcao would have been great as well but if the all time teams build around GOAT’s threads have shown anything, using Gullit in the central all in one beast role wins you brownie points and unmatchable balance. Started being funny the number of times he featured.

Regarding Jairzinho, besides Kalle, i couldn’t think of many others better to play that role.