The Road Trip Draft R1: Skizzo/Pat vs Himannv

[antohan]

Hopefully @antohan cam help shed some light on Joya and Goncalves.

I know the former went through an underrated spell on here (as some do from time to time) but that incredible link up he has with Spencer that helped lead them to so much success shows he can be a big part of a bigger picture. He’s a goal threat himself, and would be a great source of creativity for Muller/Rivaldo to get on the end of.

I see you already got some links. I can see Müller and Rivaldo having a sensational game with Joya and Johnstone stretching the play and defence. That back three won't know what hit them.

Re: Tito (and somewhat Joya, but he wasn't the "Captain of Captains") I did a writeup on all the twists and turns of the 1966 Libertadores three legged final against River Plate. Tito went on to make the Batty World XI for 1966 (quite a feat, the only non-Brazilian South America based player in the entire decade).

The first two legs
The final
Caf Obituary

 

[Skizzo]

I see you already got some links. I can see Müller and Rivaldo having a sensational game with Joya and Johnstone stretching the play and defence. That back three won't know what hit them.

Re: Tito (and somewhat Joya, but he wasn't the "Captain of Captains") I did a writeup on all the twists and turns of the 1966 Libertadores three legged final against River Plate. Tito went on to make the Batty World XI for 1966 (quite a feat, the only non-Brazilian South America based player in the entire decade).

The first two legs
The final
Caf Obituary

Much appreciated for the extra input. I know you’ve championed their cause in your own teams on more than one occasion, and didn’t want to not do them justice when you could wrap it up more succinctly.

As for rivaldo - Muller, we think they’d fancy their chances here as well.

 

[harms]

Here is how Bican measures up against the greatest goalscorers (stats from 2017).

Those stats are wrong. Cristiano just scored his 400th league goal (he is on 405 now, I think), Messi is not far behind (390 or something). They did not score more than 100 goals each last year alone.

As for Bican, him finishing Laudrup's through-balls should be a sight!

 

[harms]

Hopefully @antohan cam help shed some light on Joya and Goncalves.

There's also this — I feel like @Joga Bonito's personal promoter

Spoiler

 

[Gio]

Finally got a bit of time on my hands today. Want to highlight one of my players who seems to have gone under the radar quite a bit.

JOSEF BICAN

A player who was somewhat hidden behind the iron curtain from the view of the public, Pepi Bican is the striker in my setup. His football skills were not honed with a leather ball, but with an improvised version made from rags. Considering these humble upbringings, it's a fantastic story of how he turned out becoming one of the greatest footballers of his generation. He said in an interview that had he played in later periods, he might have been as big a name as Pele or Maradona. As legend goes, and one of the most popular ones about Bican, he would prop empty bottles on the crossbar in training and whack them down one-by-one from 20 yards out. And on an average, he would miss just around 1 of 10. That's how good he was.

• RSSSF estimates that he scored at least 805 goals in all competitive matches (530), which would make him the most prolific scorer of all time.
• IFFHS have awarded him the Golden Ball: naming him the greatest goalscorer of the last century.
• He was able to run 100m in 10.8 seconds, which is comparable to sprinters of that time.
• He's known to be two footed.
• He was the season's highest scorer in the whole of Europe on five separate occasions.
• He had superb ball control – thanks to his growing up years when he had to master the skill of playing barefoot.

People devalue his contribution to the game due to the era he played in and this is reply:



Here is how Bican measures up against the greatest goalscorers (stats from 2017).



If we include friendlies and reserve matches, Bican has scored an astounding 1468 goals in 918 matches at an unbelievable strike rate.

IFFHS has a different statistical calculation that places him second on the list of goal scorers, with 518 goals behind his teammate here: Pele who has 541 goals to his name.

That Messi figure doesn't look right. A lot of the 30s goal stats are so ridiculous they're hard to contextualise, but cannot argue with the basic premise.

Always hard to say with the pre-war player, but I reckon Bican might translate well in any era. He'd likely be the quickest player on the park with that speed and clearly he can finish. At the very minimum you'd expect him to be very effective in 1v1 situations with the keeper.

 

[Himannv]

Yeah, looks like those stats were from further back than 2017. I got it from the article update date, but looks like they didn't update the stats with that update.

 

[Indnyc]

@Himannv is Tresor expected to join in the midfield battle? The key for your team is how much he steps out and helps out against Rivaldo and co.

3 man defense against a lone striker is an overkill if your libero doesn't come out much

 

[Himannv]

@Himannv is Tresor expected to join in the midfield battle? The key for your team is how much he steps out and helps out against Rivaldo and co.

3 man defense against a lone striker is an overkill if your libero doesn't come out much

He steps out when it makes sense.

As the libero he pretty much sweeps behind in case defensive lines are breached but he also starts attacks. He's the one who would marshall this defense, so on some occasions that means he might just step out to snuff out a potential danger. He's pretty much integral to my system.

 

[Indnyc]

He steps out when it makes sense.

As the libero he pretty much sweeps behind in case defensive lines are breached but he also starts attacks. He's the one who would marshall this defense, so on some occasions that means he might just step out to snuff out a potential danger. He's pretty much integral to my system.

I think you need him to step out more to manage Rivaldo..

Both Tardelli and Alonso have had their best performances with a more defensive player behind them

 

[Himannv]

I think you need him to step out more to manage Rivaldo..

Both Tardelli and Alonso have had their best performances with a more defensive player behind them

Yeah, it's possible that will be how the game plays out since Beckenbauer stepping out gives them the numbers in midfield. So he'd probably step out if it means they're getting overrun.

 

[Himannv]

Congratz @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard. Well played and good luck in the upcoming rounds.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Congratz @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard. Well played and good luck in the upcoming rounds.

Cheers mate. You were really unlucky here - I said to Skizzo when the draw was made that I thought we'd lose this as you had a great team and it was a shite draw for us in a few ways:

- We had a pair of great wingers but Cafu/Brehme are probably my favourite pairing of GOAT wing backs and one of the last pairs we'd want to come up against.
- Pele at a stroke removes both the 'best player on the pitch' and 'best goalscorer on the pitch' we'd expect to clearly enjoy in the majority of cases with Beckenbauer and Muller in our team. Obviously you can still argue the case for our pair in those respective categories but it's not remotely clear cut.
- You having Laudrup gave your team a sexiness we lack a bit without a pure playmaker in our CM/AM zone.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Not sure where I stand on this one. You needed Laudrup more and Himannv needs Rivaldo. Both attacks and defenses are really good, but I don‘t like the midfields that much. Not even in terms of player quality, but in terms of fit.

Himannv‘s double pivot is tailor made for counter attacking smash and grab, but Laudrup is much more of a possession player I feel.

Your midfield has some serious quality, but I don‘t think Kaizer and Neeskens is that great. Certainly a far call from Kaizer-Netzer or Kaizer-Breitner. I would have liked a more creative passer in your midfield to give the whole team are more sophisticated look. Someone like Platini, Laudrup, Iniesta for Kaizer to play with. Neeskens isn‘t that player, still he gives you much defensive quality. Where it is starting to look a bit worse for you is the flanks. Joya and Johnstone are fine players, but they are up against Cafu and Brehme, the best players ever in their respective roles.

I don‘t see either side scoring much here tbh and both rely on a moment of magic from either Pele or Kaizer.

Appreciate you getting the discussion going here mate but I realised after you posted that I'd used my third and final post as an AM on that fecking tumbleweed GIF so I've delayed responding until the match was over .

I love our Beckenbauer/Neeskens pairing as it gives us so much defensive quality and pure dynamism in transitions. Those two bursting forward are gong to be so hard for the opposition to track. Beckenbauer/Muller alone were a nightmare, let alone Neeskens getting involved either on the ball or making third man runs off it. Found this glorious near-goal a few days ago:



I do agree that in its current configuration the Beckenbauer/Neeskens/Rivaldo/Muller spine does come at the cost of having a properly elite level passer/conductor in our CM/AM zone. Neeskens was about as well-rounded as it gets as a midfielder but creative passing was probably his relatively weakest area. As it stands we've still got a lot of avenues for chance creation, and in general I don't think a designated No. 10 is a necessity at all, but we do need to think about whether to reconfigure things or stick with a more direct style.

 

[Skizzo]

Congratz @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard. Well played and good luck in the upcoming rounds.

Cheers mate. Hard luck. Pat covered most of our thoughts there. Great team you had.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Kaiser is the GOAT.

 

[Don Alfredo]

@Pat_Mustard Will have to think about Neeskens/Beckenbauer combo a bit more. Still don't know if total voetbal style and der Kaiser's libero style are in sync. Would you play Kaiser and Cruyff in the same team? Difficult question.

Kaiser is the GOAT.

In this match he certainly was. He recovered from a nutmeg video like no one ever has, stopped Pele single-handedly and created the magic at the other end.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard Will have to think about Neeskens/Beckenbauer combo a bit more. Still don't know if total voetbal style and der Kaiser's libero style are in sync. Would you play Kaiser and Cruyff in the same team? Difficult question.

Good question about Kaiser and Cruyff in the same team. I don't necessarily think the more expansive German teams of that era (I'm thinking West Germany 72 and at club level possibly more Monchengladbach than Beckenbauer's Bayern) were miles apart from the great Cruyff teams in terms of footballing philosophy; with the pace of their attacking game; quick, seemingly random interchanges of position; and adventurous defenders coming out of defence and popping up everywhere.

The Cruyff/Beckenbauer dynamic specifically is quite hard to call but I'd edge towards saying they'd work together. I'm not sure it's totally relevant to assessing Neeskens/Beckenbauer though, with Neeskens being a hard-running, freakishly dynamic lieutenant rather than a rival general. In fact, I'd generally place Neeskens in a similar category stylistically as some of the best German midfield workhorses of that era like Bonhof, Wimmer and Roth.

In this match he certainly was. He recovered from a nutmeg video like no one ever has, stopped Pele single-handedly and created the magic at the other end.

When I saw the draw my first thought was that Kaiser/Desailly stack up well to Pele, than I remembered that fecking nutmeg .

 

[Isotope]

I think getting that Andrade as RB is a stroke of genius, allowing Kaiser to have more freedom moving forward in a back four system.

On the Kaiser - Neeskens debate, Kaiser worked well with Netzer before. I'm not sure what's the issue here?

 

[Himannv]

Cheers mate. You were really unlucky here - I said to Skizzo when the draw was made that I thought we'd lose this as you had a great team and it was a shite draw for us in a few ways:

- We had a pair of great wingers but Cafu/Brehme are probably my favourite pairing of GOAT wing backs and one of the last pairs we'd want to come up against.
- Pele at a stroke removes both the 'best player on the pitch' and 'best goalscorer on the pitch' we'd expect to clearly enjoy in the majority of cases with Beckenbauer and Muller in our team. Obviously you can still argue the case for our pair in those respective categories but it's not remotely clear cut.
- You having Laudrup gave your team a sexiness we lack a bit without a pure playmaker in our CM/AM zone.

Yeah, I did a piss poor job of marketing my side in this.

I had the best player on the pitch + two of the best wingbacks + two of the best goal scorers statistically + Laudrup + a good back 3 and failed to highlight any of those things.

I have a few things I need to improve for the next draft:

- Tactics: I didn't give this enough thought and just picked a tactic that I felt would work. I need to do a bit more research on this and see what better tactics I can employ considering the players and setup I have.
- My debating skills: At times I simply didn't address some points raised very well and was more reactive than proactive in my approach. Also, I took some things for granted and did not put them into actual words.
- Player knowledge: I didn't know how Marzolini played well enough, although I actually considered picking him up at some point since I started off in South America. The point raised about Laudrup not being suitable for a counter attacking setup also threw me. I mean I've watched him play, but not enough to consider what sort of tactics might not work for him.
- I need to rethink my approach and mentality towards match threads in general. I mostly didn't have time, but there was some part of me that didn't like arguing with people that also made me more aloof here.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Yeah, I did a piss poor job of marketing my side in this.

I had the best player on the pitch

With regards to Pele, I did think this same thing at some point during the match.
I thought the formation picture could have been tinkered a bit to not shove out Pele to a corner.
It did give the impression that Laudrup is running the game and Pele is playing his 1958 version (just by scanning).

I cant post pictures but I meant something like this.

---------------Bican----------------
----------------Pele-----------------
------Laudrup--------Tardelli-------
Brehme-------Alonso----------Cafu
---Chumpitaz--Tresor--Gentile-----

 

[harms]

- Player knowledge: I didn't know how Marzolini played well enough, although I actually considered picking him up at some point since I started off in South America. The point raised about Laudrup not being suitable for a counter attacking setup also threw me. I mean I've watched him play, but not enough to consider what sort of tactics might not work for him.

Don't think that there's any problem with Laudrup in direct systems personally.

With regards to Pele, I did think this same thing at some point during the match.
I thought the formation picture could have been tinkered a bit to not shove out Pele to a corner.
It did give the impression that Laudrup is running the game and Pele is playing his 1958 version (just by scanning).

I cant post pictures but I meant something like this.

---------------Bican----------------
----------------Pele-----------------
------Laudrup--------Tardelli-------
Brehme-------Alonso----------Cafu
---Chumpitaz--Tresor--Gentile-----

Looks worse to me.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Looks worse to me.

Fair enough, I cant make it look better without a picture, but its difficult to sell both Laudrup and Pele at their peaks in one lineup.

 

[harms]

Fair enough, I cant make it look better without a picture, but its difficult to sell both Laudrup and Pele at their peaks in one lineup.

Pelé at his peak wasn’t a number 10 or a classic number 9, his best role was a free-roaming striker in a front 2. Hence why it’s a bit tough to fit him in modern formations like 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. I think that it’s the best formation for this personnel.

 

[Gio]

Pelé at his peak wasn’t a number 10 or a classic number 9, his best role was a free-roaming striker in a front 2. Hence why it’s a bit tough to fit him in modern formations like 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. I think that it’s the best formation for this personnel.

Yeah if you look at early 60s peak Pele, he was typically an inside-left free roaming striker, so @Himannv pretty much nailed the front three IMO.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Good team as usual from Skizzo/Pat, but that's outstanding from Himanv. Very surprising loss!

I don't see Rivaldo fitting the team at all, esp with Beckenbauer and Neeskens. They should bench him and pick up Laudrup in reinforcement. Andrade too looks out of position.

 

[Skizzo]

Good team as usual from Skizzo/Pat, but that's outstanding from Himanv. Very surprising loss!

I don't see Rivaldo fitting the team at all, esp with Beckenbauer and Neeskens. They should bench him and pick up Laudrup in reinforcement. Andrade too looks out of position.

Rivaldo was a late adjustment after other options went, and we needed a bit of a secondary goal threat behind Muller. The criticism of not having playmakers was bamboozling though since Neeskens is there, Goncalves was a good passer from deep, and Beckenbauer would be doing his thing. We did have discussions about the midfield balance and somewhat expected that type of feedback though.

Why do you think Andrade is out of position?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Rivaldo was a late adjustment after other options went, and we needed a bit of a secondary goal threat behind Muller. The criticism of not having playmakers was bamboozling though since Neeskens is there, Goncalves was a good passer from deep, and Beckenbauer would be doing his thing. We did have discussions about the midfield balance and somewhat expected that type of feedback though.

Why do you think Andrade is out of position?

I think a player less individualistic than Rivaldo should fit you. Laudrup can operate in left midfield and can fit in with Neeskens moving up. I see Andrade as a LCB/RCB at best. I don't see him providing the width as a fullback in a back 4. As a Vogts replacement to cover for Beckenbauer he'll be OK, but a more dynamic modern fullback would serve you better.

 

[Skizzo]

I think a player less individualistic than Rivaldo should fit you. Laudrup can operate in left midfield and can fit in with Neeskens moving up. I see Andrade as a LCB/RCB at best. I don't see him providing the width as a fullback in a back 4. As a Vogts replacement to cover for Beckenbauer he'll be OK, but a more dynamic modern fullback would serve you better.

He’s there for that reason alone. We wanted to have it built around Beckenbauer at the back, so a solid CB partner and a defensive FB who can tuck and cover were needed.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I think a player less individualistic than Rivaldo should fit you. Laudrup can operate in left midfield and can fit in with Neeskens moving up. I see Andrade as a LCB/RCB at best. I don't see him providing the width as a fullback in a back 4. As a Vogts replacement to cover for Beckenbauer he'll be OK, but a more dynamic modern fullback would serve you better.

Laudrup was our planned pick after Neeskens in the initial drafting but Himannv got there first and we took Schmiechel from Denmark instead. Better late than never though as we've caught him in the reinforcement round. Andrade is one of the last players we'd consider replacing though. With an offensive libero as our best player beside him, and one of the best dribblers ever in front of him, Andrade is perfect as a defensive RB.

 

[Synco]

@Pat_Mustard Will have to think about Neeskens/Beckenbauer combo a bit more. Still don't know if total voetbal style and der Kaiser's libero style are in sync. Would you play Kaiser and Cruyff in the same team? Difficult question.

I'd say it could have worked. From what I've seen, Beckenbauer was multi-faceted and adaptable in his approach to playmaking. While he is best known for his ball-carrying runs, I feel this aspect is a bit overstated today. Very often he just chose a simple pass or long ball, playing teammates in favourable positions on as a DLP while staying back. He wasn't just a great dominator, but also a great balance player.

He worked together very well with both Overath (as a libero and DM) and Netzer, so having another dominant conductor in the team was never a problem. They just shared duties and supported each other when one gave it a go. He even took a step back for Schwarzenbeck surprisingly often (compared to their images as players), playing him on when he moved forward and covering for him.

All speculation of course, but I'd like to think these two exceptionally intelligent and flexible players would have found a way to balance their styles. My guess is Beckenbauer would have been able to react properly to Cruyff's initiative (who'd be the main man in the oppo's half), since he did that with lesser players too.