The Road Trip Draft R1: Skizzo/Pat vs Himannv

[harms]

Skizzo/Pat ------------------VS---------------Himannv​

Skizzo/Pat tactics

Formation: 4-2-3-1

We line up in a 4-2-3-1 formation based around maximising the formidable gifts of the all-time greatest libero Franz Beckenbauer. Positioned alongside a trio of exceptional, safety-first defenders, Der Kaiser will have considerable freedom in the attacking phase to orchestrate our game and provide overloads in the manner that he perfected over the course of his illustrious career. Reunited with his greatest partner in crime Gerd Muller and a gifted supporting cast including fellow all-rounder kingpin Johan Neeskens, we hope Beckenbauer will prove to be the decisive influence in this match.

Defence:

One of the very greatest goalkeepers ever in Peter Schmeichel is our last line of defence. Ahead of him, Beckenbauer marshals the defence, and the team as a whole, from his favoured RCB/libero position. Beside him, Marcel Desailly is his complementary CB partner –a supreme athlete and natural defender who has starred in similar set ups for France. Flanking them are two of the great defensive FBs in Victor Andrade and Silvio Marzolini. For anyone hoping to get a handle on Andrade Jr, this match vs Hungary is required viewing. He looks a player ahead of his time, both an athletic phenom and a wonderfully composed footballer. Tellingly, that superb Hungary team only edged past Andrade’s Uruguay after Andrade went off injured and the shackles were finally released from the great Zoltan Czibor. Beckenbauer was simply the master of providing the ‘plus one’ in every area of the pitch as he strode forward, whilst maintaining a near sixth-sense in terms of fulfilling his defensive responsibilities. In the context of an all-time draft that balancing act becomes more difficult, but he has ample security here in terms of a highly credible de facto back three of Andrade/Desailly/Marzolini when the opposition regain possession.

Central Midfield:

Spiritual successor of Obdulio Varela and the midfield lynchpin of Penarol’s hugely successful 1960s vintage, Nestor Goncalves anchors the midfield. Partnering him is box to box hurricane Johan Neeskens. It’s the Beckenbauer/Neeskens link up that excites us most about our team, with their shared ability to defend to all-time great levels, before transitioning with dizzying technical ability and dynamism.

Attack:

The greatest big-match goalscorer of all-time spearheads our attack, and Muller will relish reuniting with his general Beckenbauer. He scarcely needed more than a half-chance to decide a match, but serviced by Joya, Rivaldo and Johnstone he’s a near certainty to score at least once. Rivaldo’s peak around the turn of the millennium was scintillating, and he’ll relish his central berth behind a dominant centre forward. On the wings, Johnstone’s adroit dribbling and ability to beat multiple defenders is complemented nicely by Joya’s well-rounded wingmanship – there’s elements of that superb Johnstone/Bobby Lennox partnership in terms of Joya’s direct style, scintillating pace and off the ball movement complementing Johnstone’s more intricate style.

Why We’ll Win:

Annoyingly, if we had to sum up Himannv’s team in three words it’d probably be ‘just fecking brilliant’. Superb drafting from him. That said, we see ourselves winning this for a few reasons:


- Proven Partnerships: There can’t be many more successful duos than Beckenbauer/Muller and Goncalves/Joya. They’re not just randoms who happened to share a pitch together either, but lynchpins of their respective teams who interacted brilliantly in terms of transitions to scoring goals.

- All Bases Covered: With two defensive full backs, the supremely athletic Desailly at CB, and Goncalves anchoring, our attackers have a lot freedom positionally. We can hurt the opposition from every channel: Joya (outside left), Rivaldo (inside left), Muller (centre), Neeskens (inside right), Johnstone (outside right), with all manner of interchanging and overloads possible. Muller’s movement might just be the greatest of any centre forward ever, and with Joya/Rivaldo and Neeskens/Johnstone offering huge potential to overload their respective flanks gaps are sure to emerge in the opposition defence.

- Central Overloads: As happy as we are with our threat from from wide areas, it’s our ability to overload the centre that defines this team. Beckenbauer and Neeskens might just be the greatest one-two punch imaginable in this regard, and it coincides nicely with the biggest chink in the armour of the opposition team. Pele/Bican is a menace of a strike partnership, but we’re doubtful that either has a particularly compelling track record of defending from the front against a unique threat like Beckenbauer. The danger is exponentially increased by the presence of Neeskens, and it’s easy to imagine those two surging through that Bican/Pele/Laudrup/Xabi centre, with only an overworked Tardelli providing credible resistance before we’re bearing down on an exposed defence.

- Tactical Versatility: We’re fielding a supremely strong spine in general, but the beauty of that Beckenbauer/Neeskens combination is the ease with which we can switch from ‘soak and counter’ to dominating possession. We expect that the opposition will start with a 3-5-2 that will enable us to take the initiative, but we’re more than happy to adopt a more counter-attacking gameplan should Himannv go with the 4-2-2-2 or diamond instead.

Himannv tactics

Formation: 3-4-1-2

Style: Mostly this is a counter-attacking team with attacking players moving into spaces vacated so that they are available for passes and attacking when their numbers are less.

Tactics:

• Defense: We see a possibility of lots of attacks coming in on our right flank, with Rivaldo, Neymar/Joya, and Marzolini all players who prefer to operate on their left. If this is the case, we'd see Cafu playing deeper to compensate. The wingbacks are the best in the business and they'll work the flank to the best of their ability and rely on the setup for support. Tresor has two really tough tackling players alongside him and his presence makes this defense what it is. He's a key player here and he will marshal and control the backline, dominating with his physique and technique. he'd sweep up behind the other two, but also step out and influence the game if it's needed.

• Midfield: Tardelli brings energy, workrate, and tackling to my midfield, while Alonso acts as the midfield playmaker. They both hold their position for most part and driving forward is not part of the game plan. They are both technically gifted players and they will look to feed the front three whenever possible, while being defensively responsible.

• Attack: One of the key tactics we will use is try to use the space between the opponent's defense and midfield. Laudrup will mostly be operating here but also Pele will drop deep on occasion into this hole so that we have more presence in this area of the pitch. There might be some space available on the right flank if Marzolini drifts too far forward so Laudrup or Pele might drift that way if there is space. Pele's role is to exchange quick passes with Laudrup and Bican and also take the defense on with his dribbling. Bican uses his pace up front and plays on the shoulder of the last man. His job is to get on the end of passes, interact with Pele, and mostly do what he does best, i.e., score.

Good luck @Pat_Mustard @Skizzo @Himannv

 

[Himannv]

Same coloured shirts! We'd be passing it to each other out there throughout the game.

Good luck @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard, fantastic drafting from you two.

Not much to criticize at this level really. I reckon this'll be a cagey affair and a wonder goal from someone (Pele perhaps) will settle this one.

 

[Himannv]

Off to bed now as it's getting late over here and I've got an early meeting tomorrow. Will post in more detail when I'm back online.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Same coloured shirts! We'd be passing it to each other out there throughout the game.

Good luck @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard, fantastic drafting from you two.

Not much to criticize at this level really. I reckon this'll be a cagey affair and a wonder goal from someone (Pele perhaps) will settle this one.

Well whoever loses can always pull a Sir Alex vs Southampton and blame it on the kits . Good luck mate - as you say, not much to criticise here but we'll have to do some nitpicking to get a discussion rolling

 

[Pat_Mustard]

One of the key tactics we will use is try to use the space between the opponent's defense and midfield. Laudrup will mostly be operating here but also Pele will drop deep on occasion into this hole so that we have more presence in this area of the pitch. There might be some space available on the right flank if Marzolini drifts too far forward so Laudrup or Pele might drift that way if there is space. Pele's role is to exchange quick passes with Laudrup and Bican and also take the defense on with his dribbling. Bican uses his pace up front and plays on the shoulder of the last man. His job is to get on the end of passes, interact with Pele, and mostly do what he does best, i.e., score.

Just to get the ball rolling, Marzolini is really unlikely to get caught out defensively after charging upfield - it just doesn't seem to have been a regular part of his game to attack the final third. Just finished making an all touches video for him that'll emphasis how conservative he was as a full back. He'll generally be holding the fort alongside Desailly and Andrade when we're attacking, with Tito Goncalves anchoring in front of them. Beckenbauer will invariably be the one striding forward, and he was masterful at being the difference-maker in the attacking phase while still fulfilling his defensive responsibilities.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

 

[Don Alfredo]

Not sure where I stand on this one. You needed Laudrup more and Himannv needs Rivaldo. Both attacks and defenses are really good, but I don‘t like the midfields that much. Not even in terms of player quality, but in terms of fit.

Himannv‘s double pivot is tailor made for counter attacking smash and grab, but Laudrup is much more of a possession player I feel.

Your midfield has some serious quality, but I don‘t think Kaizer and Neeskens is that great. Certainly a far call from Kaizer-Netzer or Kaizer-Breitner. I would have liked a more creative passer in your midfield to give the whole team are more sophisticated look. Someone like Platini, Laudrup, Iniesta for Kaizer to play with. Neeskens isn‘t that player, still he gives you much defensive quality. Where it is starting to look a bit worse for you is the flanks. Joya and Johnstone are fine players, but they are up against Cafu and Brehme, the best players ever in their respective roles.

I don‘t see either side scoring much here tbh and both rely on a moment of magic from either Pele or Kaizer.

 

[Himannv]

Just to get the ball rolling, Marzolini is really unlikely to get caught out defensively after charging upfield - it just doesn't seem to have been a regular part of his game to attack the final third. Just finished making an all touches video for him that'll emphasis how conservative he was as a full back. He'll generally be holding the fort alongside Desailly and Andrade when we're attacking, with Tito Goncalves anchoring in front of them. Beckenbauer will invariably be the one striding forward, and he was masterful at being the difference-maker in the attacking phase while still fulfilling his defensive responsibilities.

I think Cafu and Brehme play a bigger role here as your team is set up to play more through the middle. I prioritized these two when drafting and hope it pays off. I couldn't think of two better players for the formation I had in mind.

 

[Skizzo]

Not sure where I stand on this one. You needed Laudrup more and Himannv needs Rivaldo. Both attacks and defenses are really good, but I don‘t like the midfields that much. Not even in terms of player quality, but in terms of fit.

Himannv‘s double pivot is tailor made for counter attacking smash and grab, but Laudrup is much more of a possession player I feel.

Your midfield has some serious quality, but I don‘t think Kaizer and Neeskens is that great. Certainly a far call from Kaizer-Netzer or Kaizer-Breitner. I would have liked a more creative passer in your midfield to give the whole team are more sophisticated look. Someone like Platini, Laudrup, Iniesta for Kaizer to play with. Neeskens isn‘t that player, still he gives you much defensive quality. Where it is starting to look a bit worse for you is the flanks. Joya and Johnstone are fine players, but they are up against Cafu and Brehme, the best players ever in their respective roles.

We did plan on getting someone of that creative ilk, notably Laudrup until Himman himself snatched him but with creative outlets in Neeskens and Beckenbauer centrally, and Johnson and Joya our wide, in the end we decided someone of Rivaldo’s ability would settle nicely into that pocket behind Muller and look to crack some shots off from outside the area and create havoc. As we said in the OP, around the turn of the century he was a genuine menace and one of the best in the World. There’s creative outlets around our “front two” and it keeps the opposition on their toes without just being able to try and shut down Muller. Speaking of...

I don‘t see either side scoring much here tbh and both rely on a moment of magic from either Pele or Kaizer.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/feb/06/best-big-game-goalscorer-football-history

With Beckenbauer patrolling areas of Pelé, it’s actially more likely to be the games biggest big game goal scorer (say that five times fast) who can make the difference in a tight affair.

 

[Skizzo]

I think Cafu and Brehme play a bigger role here as your team is set up to play more through the middle. I prioritized these two when drafting and hope it pays off. I couldn't think of two better players for the formation I had in mind.

You won’t find any arguments from us in terms of their quality. The point Pat was making is that we don’t have full backs who will bomb on and get caught out of position. With Joya and Johnstone, it also means both of your wing backs need to keep one eye on defense or else the coverage of the other center backs means Muller will find those pockets of space in the box.

And centrally we feel we have an advantage as Neeskens, Beckenbauer, Goncalves, Rivaldo will all look to dominate that area, and there’s only really Tardelli who can get stuck in to try and nullify that. There’s a lack of resistance from Xabi and Laudrup in terms of that defensive work centrally.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I had an amazing video of Tresor playing the libero role in mid 70s. fecking lost it and couldn't find it ever since

 

[Himannv]

Himannv‘s double pivot is tailor made for counter attacking smash and grab, but Laudrup is much more of a possession player I feel.

I wanted someone who could create once we get the ball and feed the frontline. In addition, I wanted someone who can exchange passes with Pele for that role. I felt he sort of fit the bill in that regard.

 

[Himannv]

I had an amazing video of Tresor playing the libero role in mid 70s. fecking lost it and couldn't find it ever since

Would love to see that tbh. I've been looking all over for footage of him, particularly an all touch compilation type video.

 

[Himannv]

And centrally we feel we have an advantage as Neeskens, Beckenbauer, Goncalves, Rivaldo will all look to dominate that area, and there’s only really Tardelli who can get stuck in to try and nullify that. There’s a lack of resistance from Xabi and Laudrup in terms of that defensive work centrally.

Our game is very much about sitting back and counter attacking so our game plan is really to get all those players to come on to us and hit back when they're out of position. We have the defense and the midfield for the tactic I believe.

 

[Skizzo]

Our game is very much about sitting back and counter attacking so our game plan is really to get all those players to come on to us and hit back when they're out of position. We have the defense and the midfield for the tactic I believe.

Sitting back and counter attacking doesn’t really suit your midfield defensively, as only Tardelli would put in the required defensive shift to harass our players. It doesn’t really get the best out of your two attacking players in Laudrup and Pelé either.

Plus with your lack of work rate defensively from the front to back through the spine, it allows Beckenbauer to take control of more of the game as it goes on. He was the master of influencing the game and knowing when to burst forward and overload certain areas, and with the coverage we have, and the lack of defensive work rate through the middle of the pitch, he could help sway fine margins towards letting Muller/Rivaldo settle a close game.

 

[Himannv]

I don‘t see either side scoring much here tbh and both rely on a moment of magic from either Pele or Kaizer.

I don't think it gets bigger than World Cup finals, and Pele has done brilliantly in those. His assist to Carlos Alberto in the final was icing on the cake if you will for his player of the tournament award. In the 1958 World Cup, Pele scored six goals in four matches -- including two on the way to defeating Sweden 5-2 in the final. Needless to say, he turns up when it counts.

 

[Himannv]

Sitting back and counter attacking doesn’t really suit your midfield defensively, as only Tardelli would put in the required defensive shift to harass our players. It doesn’t really get the best out of your two attacking players in Laudrup and Pelé either.

Plus with your lack of work rate defensively from the front to back through the spine, it allows Beckenbauer to take control of more of the game as it goes on. He was the master of influencing the game and knowing when to burst forward and overload certain areas, and with the coverage we have, and the lack of defensive work rate through the middle of the pitch, he could help sway fine margins towards letting Muller/Rivaldo settle a close game.

Defending is more than harassing opposing players though. It's also about maintaining your positioning, owning your zone, strategically intercepting. My team is fairly adept in this aspect. Also, once we do get the ball, we have the players to counter quickly and make our possession count. It also means Laudrup and Pele have much more space to work with.

What's your plan to deal with both Pele and Laudrup?

 

[Skizzo]

Defending is more than harassing opposing players though. It's also about maintaining your positioning, owning your zone, strategically intercepting. My team is fairly adept in this aspect. Also, once we do get the ball, we have the players to counter quickly and make our possession count. It also means Laudrup and Pele have much more space to work with.

What's your plan to deal with both Pele and Laudrup?

Well your game plan is to keep Cafu deeper to worry about the threat of Joya/Rivaldo out there, so Marzolini can tuck in centrally and help close space at the back. Laudrup and Pele would still need to contend with Goncalves, as well as Marzolini, Desailly and Andrade contesting the space. The wild card in all that is also Beckenbauer, who Pelé has listed as the toughest defender he faced (along with Moore). Without wingers, you can still go forward quickly, but your attack is much more centralized and you rely on your wingbacks to stretch it for you.

If your plan is to sit back and try and counter quickly, that means both Cafu and Brehme start much deeper and would need to push up rapidly when you get the ball. With Neeskens able to cover that side also, there’s no clear route for them to run through. Hoping to rely on the positioning of Xabi to stop Rivaldo breaking through, or Laudrup stopping an advancing Kaiser, or even Neeskens/Goncalves with their outstanding passing from deeper positions.

You’re trying to sit deep and soak pressure when we have Muller, the games best big game goal scorer with his ridiculous goal scoring record.

Not to mention with both Rivaldo and Joya having a great eye for goal, and the ability of both Neeskens and even Beckenbauer able to find the net, we have a better chance of swinging a tight game in our favour if your plan is to sit back and try and soak it up and hit the counter, especially as the two players you listed in Pele and Laudrup wouldn’t excel in a sit back/counter attack set up since they’d rather be on the front foot and constantly involved.

 

[Skizzo]

Nestor "Tito" Gonçalves

Spoiler

In 1957, four years before Juan Joya joined Peñarol´s ranks, another club legend started his career. Gonçalves played 574 matches for the "Aurinegros" and never left the club until he retired in 1970. He was an exceptional defensive midfielder who was brilliant in breaking up the play and shielding the defence with a passing range rarely found in Southamerican anchor men. In total he won 9 league titles, 3 copa libertadores and 2 intercontinental Cups, which makes him the most successful footballer in the history of the uruguayan league.

During the reign of Guttmann he captained Peñarol in one of the most controversial and scandalous finals in the history of the copa libertadores. In 1962 after beating the local rival "Nacional", they faced Santos FC in the final round with the chance to win the competition for a 3rd time in a row.

Santos won the first match 2:1 in Montevideo, so Peñarol had to win the return leg to force a decider. Peñarol was leading 3:2, when the brazilian crowd got disgruntled. At the 52nd minute the referee was knocked out after being hit by a bottle. When Carlos Robles (ref) woke up, he decided to abandon the match, but due to very serious menaces of Santos delegates, fans and politics, he was forced to continue the match after a 50 minute delay. The rest of the match was played "unofficially", as the referee himself communicated to the CSF board in the match report.

During this abnormal period, Santos equalised in the 66th minute, when the linesman was knocked unconscious by a bottle, delaying the match again. When Peñarol got a pen, Robles was forced by Santos players and supporters to rectify his decision. Peñarol players including their captain protested, so the ref tells him "Tito, I think we all want to get out of here alive, don't we?" The chaotic and violent match ended 3:3, but the CSF ruled the match 3:2 in favour of Panerol.

Some more info for our South American legend that was nicely written up by Baloo

 

[Himannv]

Well your game plan is to keep Cafu deeper to worry about the threat of Joya/Rivaldo out there, so Marzolini can tuck in centrally and help close space at the back. Laudrup and Pele would still need to contend with Goncalves, as well as Marzolini, Desailly and Andrade contesting the space. The wild card in all that is also Beckenbauer, who Pelé has listed as the toughest defender he faced (along with Moore). Without wingers, you can still go forward quickly, but your attack is much more centralized and you rely on your wingbacks to stretch it for you.

If your plan is to sit back and try and counter quickly, that means both Cafu and Brehme start much deeper and would need to push up rapidly when you get the ball. With Neeskens able to cover that side also, there’s no clear route for them to run through. Hoping to rely on the positioning of Xabi to stop Rivaldo breaking through, or Laudrup stopping an advancing Kaiser, or even Neeskens/Goncalves with their outstanding passing from deeper positions.

You’re trying to sit deep and soak pressure when we have Muller, the games best big game goal scorer with his ridiculous goal scoring record.

Not to mention with both Rivaldo and Joya having a great eye for goal, and the ability of both Neeskens and even Beckenbauer able to find the net, we have a better chance of swinging a tight game in our favour if your plan is to sit back and try and soak it up and hit the counter, especially as the two players you listed in Pele and Laudrup wouldn’t excel in a sit back/counter attack set up since they’d rather be on the front foot and constantly involved.

I reckon Cafu has more freedom than I initially thought because I thought Marzolini was a more attacking sort of fullback but your video seems to indicate he isn't quite as attacking as I assumed. So I feel the wingbacks would have a few more opportunities to get forward than I expected.

Desailly will probably have to take Bican, but with both Laudrup and Pele potentially filling up the space in the hole, you don't have quite as many answers if your fullbacks have to deal with Brehme and Cafu.

If Goncalves is dropping a lot deeper, it means your midfield will not have as much dominance as you envision.

 

[Skizzo]

I reckon Cafu has more freedom than I initially thought because I thought Marzolini was a more attacking sort of fullback but your video seems to indicate he isn't quite as attacking as I assumed. So I feel the wingbacks would have a few more opportunities to get forward than I expected.

Desailly will probably have to take Bican, but with both Laudrup and Pele potentially filling up the space in the hole, you don't have quite as many answers if your fullbacks have to deal with Brehme and Cafu.

If Goncalves is dropping a lot deeper, it means your midfield will not have as much dominance as you envision.

Yeah Marzolini is more a defense first type of full back. He can go forward, but especially here we want a solid base for Beckenbauer to be able to press on as he sees fit.

Cafu and Brehme still can’t push on as much as you’d like, especially as leaving Joya and Jinky to get picked up by your center backs moving wide means Muller would have the freedom in the box to break free and finish off the chances.

Joya was a tremendous outlet for Alberto Spencer, and his chance creation from out wide would be a fantastic outlet for Muller to get on the end of.

Goncalves doesn’t have to drop “a lot deeper” to have a defensive impact. He had a monstrous presence, and took over the mantle of Obdulio Varela, linking up with Joya to have an era of dominance.

With the wingers we have, you either need to blunt Cafu and Brehme’s attacking output to have them deal with their presence since you want to sit back, or you let your center backs move wide to pick them up. Which is it?

Also, who has the responsibility to stop Rivaldo? And who would pick up Beckenbauer if he moved upfield?

We have a lot of moving parts that can influence the game from all over the pitch. We explained a clear plan from the offset in how we would try and effect the game on both ends. It seems so far that you didn’t have much of a handle on a few of our players, how they would/do play, and how you’d set up to stop them.

 

[harms]

Really tough one.

I think Cafu and Brehme play a bigger role here as your team is set up to play more through the middle. I prioritized these two when drafting and hope it pays off. I couldn't think of two better players for the formation I had in mind.

Yeah, those 2 would be my choice for an all-time 5-3-2

 

[harms]

The wild card in all that is also Beckenbauer, who Pelé has listed as the toughest defender he faced (along with Moore).

It's not an indication of how this duel would go, but I've always loved this moment:

 

[Himannv]

Yeah Marzolini is more a defense first type of full back. He can go forward, but especially here we want a solid base for Beckenbauer to be able to press on as he sees fit.

Cafu and Brehme still can’t push on as much as you’d like, especially as leaving Joya and Jinky to get picked up by your center backs moving wide means Muller would have the freedom in the box to break free and finish off the chances.

Joya was a tremendous outlet for Alberto Spencer, and his chance creation from out wide would be a fantastic outlet for Muller to get on the end of.

Goncalves doesn’t have to drop “a lot deeper” to have a defensive impact. He had a monstrous presence, and took over the mantle of Obdulio Varela, linking up with Joya to have an era of dominance.

With the wingers we have, you either need to blunt Cafu and Brehme’s attacking output to have them deal with their presence since you want to sit back, or you let your center backs move wide to pick them up. Which is it?

The way I see it, the job of the wingback is quite simple: take part in both attack and defense. The back three gives them license to get forward, but they also drop back to help out. This is what I see Cafu and Brehme doing in this matchup, and I think they're both perfectly suited to the job.

Also, who has the responsibility to stop Rivaldo? And who would pick up Beckenbauer if he moved upfield?

I originally picked Gentile to actually have him man mark someone out of the game, but I don't think he needs to do this here. It would be zonal, with the back three marshalled by Tresor.

 

[Skizzo]

It's not an indication of how this duel would go, but I've always loved this moment:

Haha I came across that and thought it might pop up here. Just shows how crap his finishing was in the end jokes

 

[harms]

Haha I came across that and thought it might pop up here. Just shows how crap his finishing was in the end jokes

I love how he dismisses Willy Schulz before Beckenbauer like he isn't even here.

 

[Skizzo]

The way I see it, the job of the wingback is quite simple: take part in both attack and defense. The back three gives them license to get forward, but they also drop back to help out. This is what I see Cafu and Brehme doing in this matchup, and I think they're both perfectly suited to the job.

But you have to have clear instructions on how you expect them to play. You start off saying you’re playing deep and on the counter, with Cafu sitting back more. Then realize you want to change tactics when you find out more about the opposition. Doesn’t bode well when the manager doesn’t know what he’s up against.

I originally picked Gentile to actually have him man mark someone out of the game, but I don't think he needs to do this here. It would be zonal, with the back three marshalled by Tresor.

Zonal would be suicidal. Having players like Neeskens and Beckenbauer who are fluid and impact/overload different areas of the pitch would run wild if that’s the case. Leaving Muller and Rivaldo to move freely in and about different zones and defenders also sounds like trouble when Muller made a career out of quick explosive runs around the box to finish chances.

 

[Skizzo]

I love how he dismisses Willy Schulz before Beckenbauer like he isn't even here.

Poor Willy never stood a chance. Looks like he was on skates

 

[Skizzo]

Hopefully @antohan cam help shed some light on Joya and Goncalves.

I know the former went through an underrated spell on here (as some do from time to time) but that incredible link up he has with Spencer that helped lead them to so much success shows he can be a big part of a bigger picture. He’s a goal threat himself, and would be a great source of creativity for Muller/Rivaldo to get on the end of.

 

[harms]

Hopefully @antohan cam help shed some light on Joya and Goncalves.

Joya
The Redcafe Decades Draft Tournament

Info on Gonsalves should be in this thread
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/

 

[Skizzo]

Joya
The Redcafe Decades Draft Tournament

Info on Gonsalves should be in this thread
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/

What a sweetheart you are although he’s good for some anecdotes too, didn’t want to just copy and paste too much (since I already stole @Balu’s wrote up on Tito )

 

[Skizzo]

This is a great watch too if anyone has the time. Such a pillar of United’s success, and a player/position which was a struggle to fill for so long.



Gives a little shoutout to Sepp Maier too @Himannv

 

[Himannv]

This is a great watch too if anyone has the time. Such a pillar of United’s success, and a player/position which was a struggle to fill for so long.



Gives a little shoutout to Sepp Maier too @Himannv

Will give this a watch once I get home. I'm running from meeting to meeting today.

Two great keepers in both teams, although that probably doesn't count quite as much as the quality of players in other positions.

 

[Himannv]

Zonal would be suicidal. Having players like Neeskens and Beckenbauer who are fluid and impact/overload different areas of the pitch would run wild if that’s the case. Leaving Muller and Rivaldo to move freely in and about different zones and defenders also sounds like trouble when Muller made a career out of quick explosive runs around the box to finish chances.

Personally I think zonal will work best due to the formation and personnel in question.

Though he's a good player, I'm not a big fan of Rivaldo in your setup. I do think he's the sort of player who wouldn't really get along with the likes Muller and Beckenbauer. I always felt that he can be a bit moody at times, particularly when he isn't the main man. He's the sort of player who would perform at his best in a team with no other stars and where everything goes through him.

 

[Skizzo]

Will give this a watch once I get home. I'm running from meeting to meeting today.

Two great keepers in both teams, although that probably doesn't count quite as much as the quality of players in other positions.

Keepers often get overlooked for the flashy names elsewhere. I usually try and make it a point to grab a good one, because sometimes they help with fine margins. You picked a top of the line one yourself though so I couldn’t hammer that point

Off to bed now, and then have a training day in the morning so might not be around much more before the end. @Pat_Mustard might be around later to carry on discussions with you if you’re ok with that.

 

[Skizzo]

Personally I think zonal will work best due to the formation and personnel in question.

Though he's a good player, I'm not a big fan of Rivaldo in your setup. I do think he's the sort of player who wouldn't really get along with the likes Muller and Beckenbauer. I always felt that he can be a bit moody at times, particularly when he isn't the main man. He's the sort of player who would perform at his best in a team with no other stars and where everything goes through him.

He seemed to do quite well with Ronaldo and Ronaldinho at the 2002 WC. Second highest scorer with 5 goals, including gems like this



Zonal marking lets him and Muller float between defenders to find space, and neither need much to do some serious damage.

 

[Gio]

Personally I think zonal will work best due to the formation and personnel in question.

Though he's a good player, I'm not a big fan of Rivaldo in your setup. I do think he's the sort of player who wouldn't really get along with the likes Muller and Beckenbauer. I always felt that he can be a bit moody at times, particularly when he isn't the main man. He's the sort of player who would perform at his best in a team with no other stars and where everything goes through him.

Dunno, he played well alongside an even greater star in Ronaldo, across from Figo at Barcelona, then with Ronaldinho in '02.

With the wingers we have, you either need to blunt Cafu and Brehme’s attacking output to have them deal with their presence since you want to sit back, or you let your center backs move wide to pick them up. Which is it?

To be fair this argument gets used a lot about wingers and wing-backs or full-backs. Teams tend to tilt on their axis and everyone slides across. So if Cafu had the ball in the opposition half, and Joya was high up the park, Gentile would be in a zone to cover him (not picking him up because he needs to be an option for the pass), and everyone shuttles across covering the space. And if the ball was switched, it's likely that Brehme would advance, while either Cafu would hold back or a CM would drop in behind the play. I can see both sides - it's disingenuous to paint them both charging forward at the same time without some sort of cover tactic, and equally it's not right to say that a winger or striker is left in lots of space as a result of a full-back moving up the park.

 

[Skizzo]

Dunno, he played well alongside an even greater star in Ronaldo, across from Figo at Barcelona, then with Ronaldinho in '02.

Like you read my mind from above.

To be fair this argument gets used a lot about wingers and wing-backs or full-backs. Teams tend to tilt on their axis and everyone slides across. So if Cafu had the ball in the opposition half, and Joya was high up the park, Gentile would be in a zone to cover him (not picking him up because he needs to be an option for the pass), and everyone shuttles across covering the space. And if the ball was switched, it's likely that Brehme would advance, while either Cafu would hold back or a CM would drop in behind the play. I can see both sides - it's disingenuous to paint them both charging forward at the same time without some sort of cover tactic, and equally it's not right to say that a winger or striker is left in lots of space as a result of a full-back moving up the park.

My point was more to ask what their plan is. Originally he said they’re playing deep and trying to soak up and counter, with Cafu holding back defensively. Then they’re both gonna be bombing on at times. He also was unsure of our personnel and how they play, as to how to best tell his lads to play their game.

I get the usual debate with this that crops up, but when the gameplan is unclear, the wingbacks are the only source of width for the opposition, and we have a strong advantage down the spine, it’s something that needs some clarifying how they ACTUALLY plan to set up/play.

I felt it deserved clarification, especially after asking how we plan to stop Laudrup/Pele, when we’ve been clearly set up from the start. I still don’t think a counter set up benefits Laudrup or Pele, and those are the two attacking players the team should really be built around to get the best out of. Don’t want to turn this into another Messi/Ronaldinho/Robben turnstile, but I think it’s worth highlighting and asking for explanation on

 

[harms]

He seemed to do quite well with Ronaldo and Ronaldinho at the 2002 WC. Second highest scorer with 5 goals, including gems like this

For what it's worth, I think that he was the main man in this attack — Ronaldo wasn't playing like his previous all-action version and young Ronaldinho had to play second fiddle.

That's a different argument though — and as for his role alongside Müller and Beckenbauer, there shouldn't be any problem. Müller was much closer to 02' Ronaldo than he was to 98' one in style and I don't think that anyone ever complained about playing with Beckenbauer. Even someone like Günter Netzer, with his huge ego and problematic personality, understood that Beckenbauer wasn't stealing his limelight but rather allowed him and everyone else to shine even brighter.

 

[Himannv]

Finally got a bit of time on my hands today. Want to highlight one of my players who seems to have gone under the radar quite a bit.

JOSEF BICAN

A player who was somewhat hidden behind the iron curtain from the view of the public, Pepi Bican is the striker in my setup. His football skills were not honed with a leather ball, but with an improvised version made from rags. Considering these humble upbringings, it's a fantastic story of how he turned out becoming one of the greatest footballers of his generation. He said in an interview that had he played in later periods, he might have been as big a name as Pele or Maradona. As legend goes, and one of the most popular ones about Bican, he would prop empty bottles on the crossbar in training and whack them down one-by-one from 20 yards out. And on an average, he would miss just around 1 of 10. That's how good he was.

• RSSSF estimates that he scored at least 805 goals in all competitive matches (530), which would make him the most prolific scorer of all time.
• IFFHS have awarded him the Golden Ball: naming him the greatest goalscorer of the last century.
• He was able to run 100m in 10.8 seconds, which is comparable to sprinters of that time.
• He's known to be two footed.
• He was the season's highest scorer in the whole of Europe on five separate occasions.
• He had superb ball control – thanks to his growing up years when he had to master the skill of playing barefoot.

People devalue his contribution to the game due to the era he played in and this is reply:

I heard so many times that it was easier to score in my day. But the chances were the same a hundred years ago and will be the same a hundred years from now.

Here is how Bican measures up against the greatest goalscorers (stats from 2017).

BICAN v THE GREATS

Josep Bican, 600 league goals

Romario, 546 league goals

Pele, 538 league goals

Ferenc Puskas, 517 league goals

Lionel Messi, 289 league goals

Cristiano Ronaldo, 231 league goals

If we include friendlies and reserve matches, Bican has scored an astounding 1468 goals in 918 matches at an unbelievable strike rate.

IFFHS has a different statistical calculation that places him second on the list of goal scorers, with 518 goals behind his teammate here: Pele who has 541 goals to his name.