You don't always need a GOAT defender. Sanchis will tackle whoever has the ball and Picchi will cover running in strikers. Neuer is a master of handling crosses too. And having a sweeper keeper has it's advantages.
The Road Trip Draft R1: Don Alfredo vs Edgar Allan Pillow
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I have said multiple times that there is no chance Vogts can tuck in there. Zebec is a world class LW when attacking and he forces him to stay out wide. While Edwards has to watch Kubala, this leaves only Picchi, Sanchis and Ocwirk to defend against the central threat of Romario, Bergkamp, Robson and Pirlo. The quality mismatch is huge and there is no one with enough quality to stop Romario.
Also when you mention your great attackers, you can't leave out who they are up against. Krol, Cannavaro, Varela etc, those are among the best ever in their roles and have a good chance to put up a fight.
You act like you have the numbers in defence, while you don't. It's basically 5 vs 4 (Romario, Bergkamp, Kubala and Robson), which is a very risky proportion. 6 vs 5 if you add Neuer and Zebec.Sanchis against Romario now? He's like a one man defensive line, damn
It'll be Picchi and squeezing in Vogts, Romario is likely to face. Again with no defence stretching, he'll face a compact and organized wall.
He's not playing LW here, right?
Matthews will destroy the space behind on the counter. You also have Moreno there to add on my favour.
Difference is all 9 are central. Without flanks, he needs to get past a crowded and compact wall with no gaps.
What about my attack then? Matthews will exploit space behind Zebec, Gento will pull Bossis wide. Zico, Di Stefano will score. Lots of gaps to exploit.
My wingers are definitely superior to his fullbacks.
I have said he is a world class LW when attacking, that means his attacking impact is huge and I have clearly stated that he will run the flank all game. He has the right physical attributes and he played the role of attacking LWB on a very high level before, which makes it a great fit for him.
I am not saying that Zebec is destroying Vogts or something, but just the mere presence of him staying on the outside prevents Vogts from tucking in. You can't leave the fastest player on the pitch completely unmarked, I have great passers to pick him out in that case.
You also always fail to mention my players, so here is how they match up against your players
Matthews - Zebec + Krol
Moreno - Robson
Di Stefano and Zico - Cannavaro and Varela
Gento - Bossis
Plus Pirlo can add to the numbers as well. This means I have atleast 6 players ready to defend all game and 7 when Zebec has come back quickly.
There is zero space behind Zebec to exploit because Krol is a really good fit to cover for him.
Your back 5 can't sit back and cover every space at the back effectively. If you would've had Abidal/Picchi/Vogts at the back and Edwards with Ocwirk covering the inside channels, it would've been a bit more plausible. And you don't even have all-time great defenders that would've compensated for the tactical naivety with their sheer quality.
While Don's set up, on the other hand, is well-suited to sitting back and hitting you on the counter — back 4 + Varela and Robson covering them. It's not foolproof, and you will definitely score, but it's a strategy, which is more that I can say about your backline, frankly. It will be a high-scoring game in which Don will outscore you — that's my take, at least.
Can you please stop saying I have no flanks when Zebec is clearly instructed to stretch play on the left flank when I have the ball?
You talk about having a crowded and compact wall and you talk like you have Baresi, Maldini and Rikjaard, but the reality is your only central defensive players are Picchi, Sanchis and Ocwirk. My players like Romario, Bergkamp and Pirlo are also among the best ever of creating chances in tight spaces. Not that it matters that much because you only have 5 players who defend, that is never enough to build a compact wall with no gaps.
This is my take on the game.
Kubala will operate where Edwards is and move into middle where Sanchis is. With no width, it'll come down to a congested area and that works in my favour. That attack has no balance or variety in it.
I don't see my half backs venturing too far ahead to leave space behind. Once ball is handed over to Moreno and Zico to distribute, I have enough players upfront to not relay on my defenders.
On the other hand, he really needs Zebec to venture forward....and that opens Matthews on the counter. When he has he ball, I have strength concentrated in right areas to defend.
@Edgar Allan Pillow Ocwirk is highly rated, but is one of the players I'm less up to speed with from that era and area. Is there any footage or non-embellished info on his strengths and weaknesses?
One, I don't really buy that. If so, Matthews will win this game for me. No way Zebec is providing width and still handling Matthews in a 5 man attack.
I have said a hundred times before that Krol is the one taking care of Matthews if Zebec is going forward. Just because you like to ignore Krol and don't like my strategy of having Zebec as attacking LB doesn't mean you can leave him out from the argument completely. When you post a formation graphic of me attacking vs you defending, you have to add Zebec on the left, which means that Vogts can't come inside. This leaves Ocwirk in a horrible position to defend vs Bergkamp and Robson.
If I say Zebec is attacking, you can't say "no he is not" just because you want to
I am the one deciding what my players do and clearly Zebec is well suited to that role AND he has great cover provided by Krol.Also nice how Pirlo is nowhere to be seen in that pic, you can expect him to be around the centre circle,spraying passes to my attackers.
Not much footage available. At 1:25-1:35 he delivers a peach of a pass for a goal. He's like Monti but will less box-to-box but better passing. Adept at starting attacks from deep with good range of passing.
Here is what I have on him:
One of Austria's most skilful players of the post-war era, Ernst Ocwirk was at the heart of the team which reached the semi-final of the World Cup in 1954. One of the last old-fashioned attacking centre-halves, he spent much of career with Austria Vienna but was also one of the first Austrians to make an impact in Serie A. His style of play later helped to define the position of a holding defensive midfielder.
During his youth career with FC Stadlau, he most frequently appeared at centre-forward and he remained at that position after joining Floridsdorfer AC in 1942. It was while with Floridsdorfer that he encountered Josef Smistik, a member of Austria's 'Wunderteam' of the 1930s, who encouraged him to convert to centre-half. Ocwirk quickly displayed great talent at his new position and in 1945 he made his first appearance for Austria in his country's first post-war international against Hungary. With Austria's leading clubs chasing his signature, Smistik wanted him to move to Rapid Vienna, where he had spent much of his own career. However, Austria Vienna made a move for him in 1947, offering to help find the renovation of Florisdorfer's home ground in return for Ocwirk's signature.
Ocwirk would spend the next nine years at Austria Vienna, developing a reputation as one of the most stylish and technically gifted centre-halves in the game. Such was his consistency on the pitch, the British media nicknamed him 'clockwork' in a play on his surname. He was particularly known for his aerial ability and range of passing, especially over longer distances. In his first season with Austria Vienna he helped the club to win the Austrian Cup, before being named in the national squad for the 1948 Olympic Games in London.
Glanville "Tall and muscular, the possessor of a wonderfully strong and impeccable technique"
That's a fair point. Kubala will peel right but not stretch the flank as a typical winger.
If Edwards is coping with Kubala, how do you plan to cope with Robbo rushing in and Bergkamp in the hole?
You have enough firepower up front to win the game, my concern is how do you contain the opposition at the back.
Haven't seen him post in a while, but perhaps he'll share something if he has time?
I'm not saying no...just arguing how suicidal that is. If Krol drifts wide, you'll get killed down the middle. Zico and Moreno will have a time and Si Stefano will score for fun.
He has way too many people to operate in same area. Kubala is a player who will drift in to organize the battle...which is not really needed when he has Bergkamp and Pirlo. It has more overlaps and not really a complimentary attack.
And on top looks like Zebec is playing wingback with Krol covering Matthews out wide. I think it's a suicidal tactic. With Krol drifting wide, leaves way too mnay spaces in middle for me to not lead the game.
I have said a hundred times before that Krol is the one taking care of Matthews if Zebec is going forward. Just because you like to ignore Krol and don't like my strategy of having Zebec as attacking LB doesn't mean you can leave him out from the argument completely. When you post a formation graphic of me attacking vs you defending, you have to add Zebec on the left, which means that Vogts can't come inside. This leaves Ocwirk in a horrible position to defend vs Bergkamp and Robson.
If I say Zebec is attacking, you can't say "no he is not" just because you want to
Also nice how Pirlo is nowhere to be seen in that pic, you can expect him to be around the centre circle,spraying passes to my attackers.
To be fair, Krol covering for Zebec will shift your defending from right to left leaving space for Gento to exploit.
I am still having a hard time to decide.. Don’t really like Pirlo in that role.. Imo his best games came from the position Varela is in..
Here's idmanager's profile on Ocwirk:
And hence, I present the Captain of the team - Ernst Ocwirk - in more detail.
System he played in back then:
In the older days, players who took the field had on the jersey numbers from one to eleven.
Even if the "method" as it was referred to back in the day when Ocwirk was playing is long gone , it is easier to explain how it was played in the early post-war period using these numbers.
The so-called "method" consisted of the two medians (nos. 4 and 6), who marked the opposing wings, placed wide and higher than the backs (nos. 2 and 3), who were more narrow and backward.
It is easy to deduce that moving back the two medians on the line of the full-backs came the four-man defense in the years that came afterwards.
The number five, "centromediano metodista", term used by the old chroniclers, had the task of organizing the game both in defense and in attack.
In other words, he was the one who would then be called "director".
Ernst Ocwirk was perhaps the greatest "Central Methodist"
The great Austrian team of 50's was one of the few teams still playing in what was effectively still a pre war style. Two full backs (centre backs), a defensively minded centre-half, flanked by two half backs and five forwards
Positional and functional flexibility of Ocwirk:
Ocwirk played in his career in 2-3-5 and 3-2-5 formations, where both the distribution from the back, as well as containing the opposing storm had to be organized by one player, even though they were two very different roles, played by the same central anchor.
At the World Cup in 1954 Ocwirk was the central anchor in the 2-3-5, ahead of Hanappi and Happel as two very strong center-backs and alongside half-runners Koller on the left and Barschandt on the right.
Ocwirk intelligently secured the advances of his teammates, mostly occupying the center in front of the two defenders with the off-ball half-runners out wide on the same axis. He occasionally moved forward himself.
Interestingly, Ocwirk not only built and secured the game from the back, but was also a box-to-box player. Again and again there were long-range advances, with which he generated presence in the last third.
However, it is important to note that there were no solo runs, but more nudging moves from the depths when open spaces for rebounds, long range shots and the need for extra attackers when the opposition fell off presented themselves.
Ocwirk was considered not only a highly intelligent game designer, but also as an extremely strong header and strong-shooting midfielder.
Ocwirk's great strength was the recognition of various situation and acting upon them as needed.
In numerous combinations of the then Austrian team, it was especially Koller on the left, who advanced on the wide side, while Ocwirk gallantly moved into the resulting rooms left behind, secured the area and offered a route to fall back if the attackers were pressed off the ball.
This was followed by distance shots, individual dribbles with subsequent vertical passes and beautiful diagonal balls against the opposing defense line.
If Koller successfully made his runs and beat his man, for example, Ocwirk moved from the back with force in the direction of the penalty area.
He was not only able to open rooms for the strikers ahead, but profited from the enormous amount of attackers who already occupied the area and needed to be marked leaving him free.
In addition, when working against the ball it was common for Ocwirk to form a tight, flat triangle with the two defenders. Hanappi and Happel.
The triangle turned and blocked the opponent's options on the ball centrally. The two half-runners were allowed to act significantly more free due to this rigidness.
Hanappi especially had a great partnership with Ocwirk. Hanappi always had the option to bring the ball out out flexibly. Ocwirk blocked the middle and the ball-playing center-back was able to move forward.
I don't buy this talk that Kubala always comes inside. He is very versatile and can play any position on the front line to great success.
This is not his best game, but it shows plenty of times how Kubala is near to the right sideline and stretches the play. It always shows a bit the defensive amount of work he put in, which was unusual for a player of his time.
This is not his best game, but it shows plenty of times how Kubala is near to the right sideline and stretches the play. It always shows a bit the defensive amount of work he put in, which was unusual for a player of his time.
It is. Neither Pirlo not Kubala are geared to have a peak games and they'll overlap and take away part of Bergkamp's game too. His whole right flank is non existent. He needs Zebec and as you say that opens up his left flank for my counter. Not really optimal or balanced.
Beg to disagree. When I say, he'll cut in...I was just describing his peak position as Inside Right. Ofc, you can't really say a player will never venture to a particular area of pitch...but shunting him wide without a fullback will not give you a peak Kubala. I don't see him taking on Manolo and beating him wide. Edwards is more than sufficient to handle him when he drifts wide.
Anyway have to get to work...be back in a couple of hours.
How can you argue I will get killed down the middle when I have players like Varela, Robson, Cannavaro there and you have Ocwirk, Sanchis and Picchi? That is a massive gulf in quality and I concede that you have the better attackers, but the gulf in class between Romario, Bergkamp and Robson vs Sanchis, Picchi, Ocwirk is so much bigger, it is not even funny anymore. Fecking Franco Baresi needed to put in a career-great performance to have a chance against peak Romario and you have Manolo Sanchis? No chance he will survive that battle.
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I disagree with me having overlaps in my side. I build the side specifically with the intent of not having overlaps between my players, but to have excellent specialists instead. Pirlo is my DLP, no overlap with Kubala and Bergkamp there. Bergkamp is the only one doing playmaking from the number 10 position, no overlap with Pirlo because he is deeper and no overlap with Kubala because he is not a playmaker. Kubala gives me the 1v1 quality I need, he was known as the greatest dribbler in Europe in the 50s and this differentiates him big time from someone like Bergkamp, who used 1v1 dribbles less frequently.
Cheers. Ocwirk and Hanappi together
That's fairly standard though. Krol picks up Matthews, Cannavaro goes to ADS, Robson on Moreno, Varela on Zico, Bossis on Gento, Pirlo spare keeping an eye on Ocwirk and Edwards.
I like it though. He is not known for shielding the back four, say if he were at base of midfield
With Varela doing the dirty-work instead, and Robson's tireless play, Pirlo has now more freedom to dictate play from deep
Can't believe people are still doing these, they typically display how you want the oppo to play (like fools).
Redraw with Kubala past Edwards and his arrow pointing behind Sanchis, Bergkamp not blocking the Robbo steam train, and adding Zebec out left.
Suddenly you are knee-deep, and we've ignored Pirlo deep helping manage the tempo and recycle if needs be.
All the best way forward @Don Alfredo
Thanks mate, good game
I still keep an eye on the Caf but I’m not in a good place right now. Finding life tough.
Happy to talk about Ockwirk for a bit though. Good memories. Anything in particular anyone wants to know?
What kind of player is he, strengths, weakness, playing style?
I’m a bit biased because of my grandfather but I’ll be as impartial as possible.
Ockwirk was an exceptional player with a unique skillset. His strongest skills were undoubtedly his passing range and reading of the game. He always knew where to be and where to play the ball. The closest comparison I can think of is Pirlo so I guess you could call him a deep playmaker. That would be doing him a bit of a disservice though as he offered more than that. He loved to do a bit of everything. He wasn’t a world class tackler but his positioning and timing allowed him to win possession and control the line in front of the defence. He contributed in attack as well. He used to power forward à la Roy Keane and was a surprisingly good finisher. I think he was a striker as a kid. I remember him as elegant as well. He made every touch of the ball count.
In regards to this draft I would feel uncomfortable having him as my only central DM against Romario, Bergkamp, Kubala and Robson. Vogts and Edwards would need to drift inside and provide tackling cover.
I understand that it hardly helps but I hope that everything will sort itself out.
Take care of yourself. Hopefully everything will work out soon
Cheers, appreciated.
Another story here.
A lot of overlapping on both sides.
It seems EAP has been sanctioned for being overly offensive or/and battle midfield considerations
A lot of overlapping on both sides.
It seems EAP has been sanctioned for being overly offensive or/and battle midfield considerations