The Road Trip Draft QF - Enigma vs Pat/Skizzo

[Enigma_87]

I don't recall saying that at all actually . What I actually said:



That's very much a 3 vs 3, with Laudrup having a limited and manageable defensive brief vs your deepest midfielder, and the two heavyweights taking care of the proper heavy lifting behind him.

I meant Beckenbauer being at the heart of the defence, sorry for not making it clear.

As for Laudrup, I'm assuming you are using the Barca version of him? He was much more advanced at that time and usually the furthest man forward. He didn't really put a defensive shift in.

 

[Gio]

Enigma/TRV have a little more quality sheen going forward, but Skizzo/Pat have head-to-head advantages in key areas. In that sense Muller and Laudrup could be pivotal.

I like the Carlos upgrade for Marzolini. Ballsy because his impact on the game is usually undervalued in context of his defensive game, but it helps balance that defence as a constructive unit on the ball. Previously as defensively solid as it was, it looked pretty laboured with Marzolini and Andrade. Fair play for choosing Joya over Rivaldo as well. Might prefer's Rivaldo's pizzazz there, but Joya was the more natural play-stretcher who you can see relishing Laudrup's almost unique service.

You can't logically compare Vieira to the bold names because those are different types of players. For instance I'd never have Iniesta over Vieira in a 442 because they wouldn't be a good fit. I wouldn't have Vieira over him in a 433 though so it balances out.
Pirlo for extreme example would be an awful choice to sub in for Vieira here as his style would be all wrong. It would instantly ruin the entire balance of the tactic. Personally I rate Vieira well above Busquets and Kroos and I know this is a United forum so I'm a minority here but I don't rate Keane above Vieira either.

Agree with this assessment. Obviously Keane was the gold standard for influence, but speak to any of Vieira's colleagues over the years and many spoke highly of how compelling his presence and personality was both on the training ground and on the pitch.

Think Pat/Skizzo left side is getting exposed here, considering our right side and Joya not really helping him out. A more defensive full back would certainly be better if you are playing with orthodox winger.

I'm not sure Carlos Alberto was the constantly-overlapping type based on what I saw of him. Most of that admittedly from Mexico '70, but I think Joya could match his more infrequent forays going forward.

Tommy Gemmill in that 1967 EC final is actually one of the earliest examples I've personally seen of a full back constantly bombing forward in a basically modern way, with the likes of Breitner, Marinho etc then doing that in the following decade. I agree though that until recently full backs generally had a much greater requirement to actually be good defenders.

It's frustrating when you're facing a Facchetti or a Nilton (and conversely fecking awesome when you picked them yourself) when they seem to be given all the attacking prowess of a Marcelo while also being impregnable defensively.

Yep, Gemmell is one of the earliest examples of a proper modern full-back. His performance in Lisbon could have come straight out of the 2018 attacking full-back book. Agree on the final point that the attacking contribution of the great full-backs pre-1980s is overstated, and the likes of Marcelo and Gordillo have more craft and technical ability going forward, which doesn't always get recognised in the overall shape of the game.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I meant Beckenbauer being at the heart of the defence, sorry for not making it clear.

As for Laudrup, I'm assuming you are using the Barca version of him? He was much more advanced at that time and usually the furthest man forward. He didn't really put a defensive shift in.

Peak Laudrup. Barca and early Real Madrid, where he was pretty close to guaranteeing a league title for whoever he played for. I'm also not sure if any possible version of Ronaldinho or Fontaine will offer credible resistance to Beckenbauer moving upfield when we regain possession.

 

[Enigma_87]

Peak Laudrup. Barca and early Real Madrid, where he was pretty close to guaranteeing a league title for whoever he played for. I'm also not sure if any possible version of Ronaldinho or Fontaine will offer credible resistance to Beckenbauer moving upfield when we regain possession.

That Laudrup will most likely post as much resistance to our midfield as Ronaldinho and Fontaine to Beckenbauer.

 

[Enigma_87]

Enigma/TRV have a little more quality sheen going forward, but Skizzo/Pat have head-to-head advantages in key areas. In that sense Muller and Laudrup could be pivotal.

I like the Carlos upgrade for Marzolini. Ballsy because his impact on the game is usually undervalued in context of his defensive game, but it helps balance that defence as a constructive unit on the ball. Previously as defensively solid as it was, it looked pretty laboured with Marzolini and Andrade. Fair play for choosing Joya over Rivaldo as well. Might prefer's Rivaldo's pizzazz there, but Joya was the more natural play-stretcher who you can see relishing Laudrup's almost unique service.


Agree with this assessment. Obviously Keane was the gold standard for influence, but speak to any of Vieira's colleagues over the years and many spoke highly of how compelling his presence and personality was both on the training ground and on the pitch.

I'm not sure Carlos Alberto was the constantly-overlapping type based on what I saw of him. Most of that admittedly from Mexico '70, but I think Joya could match his more infrequent forays going forward.

Yep, Gemmell is one of the earliest examples of a proper modern full-back. His performance in Lisbon could have come straight out of the 2018 attacking full-back book. Agree on the final point that the attacking contribution of the great full-backs pre-1980s is overstated, and the likes of Marcelo and Gordillo have more craft and technical ability going forward, which doesn't always get recognised in the overall shape of the game.

Well we usually see things differently so I'm not surprised

To me you are underrating the difference in both attacks. Whilst Muller is the best CF on the pitch we have the best player on the park in Messi, the best full backs and best wingers on the pitch.

Defensively there isn't much between Moore and Beckenbauer and to be honest to me Moore is the better pure defender on the pitch hence we have more protection in the defensive phase compared to the opposition that would need Kaiser going in midfield to balance things out or Carlos isolated against Messi.

Carlos Alberto was an overlapping full back but you obviously have to take into consideration the era. It's not like you could expect the full backs of the 60-70s to produce the same attacking output like the ones 40 years later. Obviously the tactics improved and were quite bit different but I don't think anyone doubted our full back credentials going forward historically.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Enigma/TRV have a little more quality sheen going forward, but Skizzo/Pat have head-to-head advantages in key areas. In that sense Muller and Laudrup could be pivotal.

I like the Carlos upgrade for Marzolini. Ballsy because his impact on the game is usually undervalued in context of his defensive game, but it helps balance that defence as a constructive unit on the ball. Previously as defensively solid as it was, it looked pretty laboured with Marzolini and Andrade. Fair play for choosing Joya over Rivaldo as well. Might prefer's Rivaldo's pizzazz there, but Joya was the more natural play-stretcher who you can see relishing Laudrup's almost unique service.


Agree with this assessment. Obviously Keane was the gold standard for influence, but speak to any of Vieira's colleagues over the years and many spoke highly of how compelling his presence and personality was both on the training ground and on the pitch.

I'm not sure Carlos Alberto was the constantly-overlapping type based on what I saw of him. Most of that admittedly from Mexico '70, but I think Joya could match his more infrequent forays going forward.

Yep, Gemmell is one of the earliest examples of a proper modern full-back. His performance in Lisbon could have come straight out of the 2018 attacking full-back book. Agree on the final point that the attacking contribution of the great full-backs pre-1980s is overstated, and the likes of Marcelo and Gordillo have more craft and technical ability going forward, which doesn't always get recognised in the overall shape of the game.

Good post Gio. Agree with everything there, through gritted teeth in the case of Vieira being on similar-ish terrain to Keane.

Knowing that his direct opponent was likely to be Messi, it was very tempting to stick with Marzolini for this match, but this is closer to our original vision for the team and to a proper Beckenbauer setup IMO. It's almost self-defeating to select him only to cocoon him in a highly defensive formation. Don Alfredo made a good post recently on that note:

Why are two CBs a must when he was the best player in the world as a Libero in a back 4?

Many formations here have 2 CBs to make up for some gap he leaves behind and I guess this comes from the draft logic of having to build teams in anticipation of facing Ronaldo, Pele etc.

The beauty of Beckenbauer is that he gives the team so much from a libero position, he is the plus 1 all over the field. If you put a player into the side specifically to slot in as a CB again whenever he leaves his position, you actually don't gain any numerical advantage somewhere on the field.

I mean you can use him as a midfielder and he is simply fantastic there, but then skip the whole "5 man defence" thing or "Rikjaard dropping in".

Of course it is somewhat more adventurous with him as a libero in a back 4, but to win games you actually need to score goals and he is the man who will give you so much impact on that part of the equation that it is absolutely worth it, even when up against All-Time Greats like Cruyff.

 

[Skizzo]

Well we usually see things differently so I'm not surprised

To me you are underrating the difference in both attacks. Whilst Muller is the best CF on the pitch we have the best player on the park in Messi, the best full backs and best wingers on the pitch.

With some of the hyperbole coming out from your AM, there’s only one person really underrating anything Everyone else has offered relatively fair and balanced opinions, albeit differing on both sides, which is fair enough.

Defensively there isn't much between Moore and Beckenbauer and to be honest to me Moore is the better pure defender on the pitch hence we have more protection in the defensive phase compared to the opposition that would need Kaiser going in midfield to balance things out or Carlos isolated against Messi.

Muller already highlighted his credentials against Moore. Even when “shut out and losing duels all game” he still made a deciding difference. Beckenbauer is a greater player than Moore, and in his absolute element here with the setup and players around him.

Which leads me to my main point I wanted to make. Messi is the best player on the pitch, but you don’t really have the best setup for him to thrive.

Your midfield is way more direct a team than he’s ever excelled in. He’s good in almost all teams, he’s Messi, but in a game of fine margins, we have our GOATs in ideal systems to get them working, Messi is on the wing in a game that you set up to “control the midfield” but would fail to do so. And he’s only there because you admittedly got it wrong in the first game, and had to retreat back to this even though you argued against it the entire last match.

Having the critics decide your system would never be the best way to approach a game especially when Pat already highlighted the victories our players had against yours in key matches.

Carlos Alberto was an overlapping full back but you obviously have to take into consideration the era. It's not like you could expect the full backs of the 60-70s to produce the same attacking output like the ones 40 years later. Obviously the tactics improved and were quite bit different but I don't think anyone doubted our full back credentials going forward historically.

It’s the same argument both ways if you want to argue like that. Carlos Alberto overlaps, we win the ball back and send Joya on his way while Moore is helping cover Muller. Moore isn’t the quickest, as good a defender as he is, and with your overlapping full backs, and our wingers stretching the space they leave behind, I’d back Laudrup to find those runners. Or Neeskens, Goncalves, or the Kaiser himself.

Just my last thoughts before bed

 

[Enigma_87]

With some of the hyperbole coming out from your AM, there’s only one person really underrating anything Everyone else has offered relatively fair and balanced opinions, albeit differing on both sides, which is fair enough.



Muller already highlighted his credentials against Moore. Even when “shut out and losing duels all game” he still made a deciding difference. Beckenbauer is a greater player than Moore, and in his absolute element here with the setup and players around him.

Which leads me to my main point I wanted to make. Messi is the best player on the pitch, but you don’t really have the best setup for him to thrive.

Your midfield is way more direct a team than he’s ever excelled in. He’s good in almost all teams, he’s Messi, but in a game of fine margins, we have our GOATs in ideal systems to get them working, Messi is on the wing in a game that you set up to “control the midfield” but would fail to do so. And he’s only there because you admittedly got it wrong in the first game, and had to retreat back to this even though you argued against it the entire last match.

Having the critics decide your system would never be the best way to approach a game especially when Pat already highlighted the victories our players had against yours in key matches.



It’s the same argument both ways if you want to argue like that. Carlos Alberto overlaps, we win the ball back and send Joya on his way while Moore is helping cover Muller. Moore isn’t the quickest, as good a defender as he is, and with your overlapping full backs, and our wingers stretching the space they leave behind, I’d back Laudrup to find those runners. Or Neeskens, Goncalves, or the Kaiser himself.

Just my last thoughts before bed

You can't really argue the quality between both flanks tho. When considering both their presence in attack and defence our full backs are easily a tier above yours. Same goes for the wide attackers.

I've already posted that (bit of a myth) Moore/Muller duel and the former kept him shut in one of the three games they participated in. Hell he failed to score in regular time in 2 of the three games and Beckenbauer's effect on the game was much more prominent when Charlton was taken off the pitch to save the score as England was leading 2-1 and generally was controlling the proceedings.
Besides Muller had Seeler probing in that game and you don't have a player of his quality here. I like Jinky and Joya but they aren't on the level of the opposition wingers and if Ferrara is being questioned at this level so would they be too.

I still maintain that we will control the midfield. Laudrup is not someone who would give you the nod and as Pat already said you will have Beckenbauer only advancing there when you have the ball, so it's 3 vs 2 most of the time however you look at it.

Even without Vieira, Breitner and Redondo are more likely to battle it out with Neeskens and Tito and with the inclusion of the former we definitely have the nod there, especially considering Keiser will be only part time participating in it.

Not to mention you have two orthodox wingers who are mainly focused on the attacking play.

Overall we have more individual quality and better attack that could decide the game.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

You can't really argue the quality between both flanks tho. When considering both their presence in attack and defence our full backs are easily a tier above yours. Same goes for the wide attackers.

I've already posted that (bit of a myth) Moore/Muller duel and the former kept him shut in one of the three games they participated in. Hell he failed to score in regular time in 2 of the three games and Beckenbauer's effect on the game was much more prominent when Charlton was taken off the pitch to save the score as England was leading 2-1 and generally was controlling the proceedings.
Besides Muller had Seeler probing in that game and you don't have a player of his quality here. I like Jinky and Joya but they aren't on the level of the opposition wingers and if Ferrara is being questioned at this level so would they be too.

I still maintain that we will control the midfield. Laudrup is not someone who would give you the nod and as Pat already said you will have Beckenbauer only advancing there when you have the ball, so it's 3 vs one however you look at it.

Not to mention you have two orthodox wingers who are mainly focused on the attacking play.

Overall we have more individual quality and better attack that could decide the game.

I purposefully avoided touching the Ferrara discussion yesterday as I dislike this aspect of all-time drafts, where legitimately excellent players like Ciro end up being seen almost as sheep, but come on man. Johnstone and Joya figure highly in any reasonable list of the best right and left wingers of all time. I doubt Ferrara would crack anyone's top 20 centre backs list.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Also, the bald facts are that Muller scored twice in three matches against Moore's England to dump them out of two competitions. As great as Seeler was (and he was only two years away from retirement then), it's nonsense to suggest that Moore was surrounded by scrubs and that our team is somehow a downgrade on 1970 West Germany. Not only have we got Muller's main partner in crime here with him, but I doubt there'd be too many on here that would swap our Joya/Laudrup/Johnstone support act for Muller in favour of the German's Lohr/Seeler/Libuda.

I'm surprised at the Joya-bashing too, given that you picked him in the South America Draft (as one of your reinforcements for the final no less!) and touted his all-time credentials then.

 

[MJJ]

Also, the bald facts are that Muller scored twice in three matches against Moore's England to dump them out of two competitions. As great as Seeler was (and he was only two years away from retirement then), it's nonsense to suggest that Moore was surrounded by scrubs and that our team is somehow a downgrade on 1970 West Germany. Not only have we got Muller's main partner in crime here with him, but I doubt there'd be too many on here that would swap our Joya/Laudrup/Johnstone support act for Muller in favour of the German's Lohr/Seeler/Libuda.

I'm surprised at the Joya-bashing too, given that you picked him in the South America Draft (as one of your reinforcements for the final no less!) and touted his all-time credentials then.

ouch.

 

[Enigma_87]

I purposefully avoided touching the Ferrara discussion yesterday as I dislike this aspect of all-time drafts, where legitimately excellent players like Ciro end up being seen almost as sheep, but come on man. Johnstone and Joya figure highly in any reasonable list of the best right and left wingers of all time. I doubt Ferrara would crack anyone's top 20 centre backs list.

I'm certainly not depicting Joya and Jinky as sheep mate, but come on Ronaldinho and Messi are at least tier or two above them. Doubt anyone would see it differently to be honest.

 

[Skizzo]

You can't really argue the quality between both flanks tho. When considering both their presence in attack and defence our full backs are easily a tier above yours. Same goes for the wide attackers.

I've already posted that (bit of a myth) Moore/Muller duel and the former kept him shut in one of the three games they participated in. Hell he failed to score in regular time in 2 of the three games and Beckenbauer's effect on the game was much more prominent when Charlton was taken off the pitch to save the score as England was leading 2-1 and generally was controlling the proceedings.
Besides Muller had Seeler probing in that game and you don't have a player of his quality here. I like Jinky and Joya but they aren't on the level of the opposition wingers and if Ferrara is being questioned at this level so would they be too.

I still maintain that we will control the midfield. Laudrup is not someone who would give you the nod and as Pat already said you will have Beckenbauer only advancing there when you have the ball, so it's 3 vs 2 most of the time however you look at it.

Even without Vieira, Breitner and Redondo are more likely to battle it out with Neeskens and Tito and with the inclusion of the former we definitely have the nod there, especially considering Keiser will be only part time participating in it.

Not to mention you have two orthodox wingers who are mainly focused on the attacking play.

Overall we have more individual quality and better attack that could decide the game.

So Beckenbauer featured prominently in that game after Charlton left? And here you have no one to replicate that Charlton graft when it comes to following Beckenbauer, leaving him free to run the game.

He’s far more equipped to be the difference maker with the set up around him, and Muller/Laudrup attacking the goal.

Messi is moved wide right and not in a complementary style to get the best out of him.

Plus your assistant has already said Breitner/Vieira are doubling up on Laudrup with Redondo, and Moore is helping Ferrara with Muller, so that doesn’t lend itself to you having any numerical advantage anywhere. Unless you’re both arguing different sides, in which case that’s a little unfair

 

[Enigma_87]

Also, the bald facts are that Muller scored twice in three matches against Moore's England to dump them out of two competitions. As great as Seeler was (and he was only two years away from retirement then), it's nonsense to suggest that Moore was surrounded by scrubs and that our team is somehow a downgrade on 1970 West Germany. Not only have we got Muller's main partner in crime here with him, but I doubt there'd be too many on here that would swap our Joya/Laudrup/Johnstone support act for Muller in favour of the German's Lohr/Seeler/Libuda.

I'm surprised at the Joya-bashing too, given that you picked him in the South America Draft (as one of your reinforcements for the final no less!) and touted his all-time credentials then.

As I said I don't doubt their credentials as wingers, but if Ronaldinho was available to us I wouldn't put a second thought who I'd go for tbh

Also your supporting cast is better for Muller, but our supporting cast is much better for Moore as well. Ferrara is better than any partner Moore had whilst full backs were always a problem for England not only in the 60's and yet we have GOAT ones on show.

 

[Enigma_87]

So Beckenbauer featured prominently in that game after Charlton left? And here you have no one to replicate that Charlton graft when it comes to following Beckenbauer, leaving him free to run the game.

He’s far more equipped to be the difference maker with the set up around him, and Muller/Laudrup attacking the goal.

Messi is moved wide right and not in a complementary style to get the best out of him.

Plus your assistant has already said Breitner/Vieira are doubling up on Laudrup with Redondo, and Moore is helping Ferrara with Muller, so that doesn’t lend itself to you having any numerical advantage anywhere. Unless you’re both arguing different sides, in which case that’s a little unfair

We're defending zonally. Think we already mentioned that.

As for Messi you are leaving him with uber attacking left back in that zone. We're giving him space to do his thing. In the current matchup being on the right makes him a lot more dangerous and you don't really have an answer for that. Who will stop Messi decide the game?

As for the Germany/England game I'm sure you have watched it as well, am I wrong?

 

[Skizzo]

We're defending zonally. Think we already mentioned that.

As for Messi you are leaving him with uber attacking left back in that zone. We're giving him space to do his thing. In the current matchup being on the right makes him a lot more dangerous and you don't really have an answer for that. Who will stop Messi decide the game?

As for the Germany/England game I'm sure you have watched it as well, am I wrong?

1. Pick Messi
2. Let him do his thing somewhere
3. ????
4. Profit

Got it

We’ve been clear throughout how we plan to approach the game, pointed out actual battles and outcomes, and explained where our advantages lie.


We’ve asked about Messi in a different system, you’ve gone from marking players to zonal marking, and seem to suddenly not rate players you’ve picked yourself before and not giving them their dues.

It’s very similar to how @Arbitrium asked you direct questions and struggled to get an actual answer out of one of you. That’s all

 

[Skizzo]

@Enigma_87 @The Red Viper heading to bed though now (for real this time )

Good luck for the rest of the game

 

[Enigma_87]

1. Pick Messi
2. Let him do his thing somewhere
3. ????
4. Profit

Got it

We’ve been clear throughout how we plan to approach the game, pointed out actual battles and outcomes, and explained where our advantages lie.


We’ve asked about Messi in a different system, you’ve gone from marking players to zonal marking, and seem to suddenly not rate players you’ve picked yourself before and not giving them their dues.

It’s very similar to how @Arbitrium asked you direct questions and struggled to get an actual answer out of one of you. That’s all

Come on mate, that's a bit out of place.

How I am not rating your wingers calling ours better?

I'm not sure how you addressed how you are coping with Messi, the conversation has revolved on how we are coping with Muller and Beckenbauer so far but nothing on the battle on the flanks from your side? So how is Messi being stopped with Carlos not exactly the best fit for the job?

We moved Messi to exploit your weakest link in defence and I'm not sure how that's is a bad thing tactically - quite the opposite if you ask me

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 @The Red Viper heading to bed though now (for real this time )

Good luck for the rest of the game

Probably won't be online in the last hour myself so good luck you you guys as well!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

As for Messi you are leaving him with uber attacking left back in that zone

Carlos Alberto was an overlapping full back but you obviously have to take into consideration the era. It's not like you could expect the full backs of the 60-70s to produce the same attacking output like the ones 40 years later. Obviously the tactics improved and were quite bit different but I don't think anyone doubted our full back credentials going forward historically.

This really sums up the issue here with the most illustrious of the older full backs being a trump card in certain draft matches. You're asking for allowances to be made for Facchetti and Carlos Alberto, effectively imagining them as rampaging modern full backs whilst still maintaining their GOAT defensive capabilities. Yet no such allowances are made for Roberto Carlos defensively, who really did cover the entire length of the pitch, and of course left more gaps behind him as a result. He played his natural, attacking game against the best wingers of his time, so we don't have to surmise how we would perform with the tactical straitjacket removed like we do with Facchetti who seems to have been deployed almost exclusively defensively against elite wingers.

Roberto Carlos with Figo as a direct opponent:



As to who stops Messi deciding the match? Hopefully Carlos in tandem with our Beckenbauer-led defence and Goncalves/Neeskens midfield shield. Maybe no one, as it's Messi, he's surrounded by world class teammates, and he's quite clearly capable of deciding any match.

We could (and have) posed the same question as to who will stop Beckenbauer and Muller, and neither yours or our solutions are entirely convincing tbh.

 

[Enigma_87]

This really sums up the issue here with the most illustrious of the older full backs being a trump card in certain draft matches. You're asking for allowances to be made for Facchetti and Carlos Alberto, effectively imagining them as rampaging modern full backs whilst still maintaining their GOAT defensive capabilities. Yet no such allowances are made for Roberto Carlos defensively, who really did cover the entire length of the pitch, and of course left more gaps behind him as a result. He played his natural, attacking game against the best wingers of his time, so we don't have to surmise how we would perform with the tactical straitjacket removed like we do with Facchetti who seems to have been deployed almost exclusively defensively against elite wingers.

Roberto Carlos with Figo as a direct opponent:



As to who stops Messi deciding the match? Hopefully Carlos in tandem with our Beckenbauer-led defence and Goncalves/Neeskens midfield shield. Maybe no one, as it's Messi, he's surrounded by world class teammates, and he's quite clearly capable of deciding any match.

We could (and have) posed the same question as to who will stop Beckenbauer and Muller, and neither yours or our solutions are entirely convincing tbh.

Messi is another proposition compared to Figo tho. He's a great goalscorer and this is something what he can do from that side:



Carlos is better defensively than Marcelo but that doesn't mean he would stop Messi on his own. You have to double or even triple Messi to stop him and yet I'm not sure how convincing your game plan is here. Tito is not the player you'd expect to cover wide and you have Joya on the side who isn't a workhorse either and won't track back.

Even if we forget Carlos Alberto Messi isolated against Bobby Carlos is probably game over in my book.

On Beckenbauer I think we said multiple times - he is needed in your defensive line and when we are off the ball we have a great shield for our defence in Vieira, Redondo and Breitner. Plenty of enough cover to stop his forays.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Messi is another proposition compared to Figo tho. He's a great goalscorer and this is something what he can do from that side:



Carlos is better defensively than Marcelo but that doesn't mean he would stop Messi on his own. You have to double or even triple Messi to stop him and yet I'm not sure how convincing your game plan is here. Tito is not the player you'd expect to cover wide and you have Joya on the side who isn't a workhorse either and won't track back.

Even if we forget Carlos Alberto Messi isolated against Bobby Carlos is probably game over in my book.

On Beckenbauer I think we said multiple times - he is needed in your defensive line and when we are off the ball we have a great shield for our defence in Vieira, Redondo and Breitner. Plenty of enough cover to stop his forays.

You're missing my point regarding Roberto Carlos - he continued to play his natural, attacking game against pretty much any level of opponent. We don't have to imagine him playing with the handbrake off as you've asked the voters to do with Facchetti. Unless you've got counter-examples of him producing meaningful attacking displays against top wingers?

As regards Beckenbauer and Muller I know you've said it multiple times, I just don't find it convincing personally. Ideally with Beckenbauer you'd want an attacker with some impressive defensive workrate like Law, Seeler,Muller etc. Beckenbauer striding into midfield unopposed with your midfielders occupied with the likes of Laudrup and Neeskens is a danger, no two ways about it. As regards Muller we've both made our points, but I find Muller's two goals in three games against your best defender quite compelling.

We haven't actually touched on Fontaine, who Desailly seems to match up brilliantly to physically. Is there anything to suggest he's the sort of centre forward to bring the best out of Messi?

 

[Indnyc]

Yeah that's fair. I think that a Vieira/Keane is perfect for that role in their tactic whereas if they had a Pirlo or Iniesta I think that midfield would get dominated by Pat/Skizzo's. They need someone like Vieira to combo with Breitner and Redondo to tilt the advantage imo.

Viera is a great fit but with the opposition having Beckenbauer I don’t see too much midfield advantage

 

[crappycraperson]

This really sums up the issue here with the most illustrious of the older full backs being a trump card in certain draft matches. You're asking for allowances to be made for Facchetti and Carlos Alberto, effectively imagining them as rampaging modern full backs whilst still maintaining their GOAT defensive capabilities. Yet no such allowances are made for Roberto Carlos defensively, who really did cover the entire length of the pitch, and of course left more gaps behind him as a result. He played his natural, attacking game against the best wingers of his time, so we don't have to surmise how we would perform with the tactical straitjacket removed like we do with Facchetti who seems to have been deployed almost exclusively defensively against elite wingers.

Roberto Carlos with Figo as a direct opponent:



As to who stops Messi deciding the match? Hopefully Carlos in tandem with our Beckenbauer-led defence and Goncalves/Neeskens midfield shield. Maybe no one, as it's Messi, he's surrounded by world class teammates, and he's quite clearly capable of deciding any match.

We could (and have) posed the same question as to who will stop Beckenbauer and Muller, and neither yours or our solutions are entirely convincing tbh.

Carlos is not as good as Fachetti

 

[Gio]

Well we usually see things differently so I'm not surprised

To me you are underrating the difference in both attacks. Whilst Muller is the best CF on the pitch we have the best player on the park in Messi, the best full backs and best wingers on the pitch.

Defensively there isn't much between Moore and Beckenbauer and to be honest to me Moore is the better pure defender on the pitch hence we have more protection in the defensive phase compared to the opposition that would need Kaiser going in midfield to balance things out or Carlos isolated against Messi.

Carlos Alberto was an overlapping full back but you obviously have to take into consideration the era. It's not like you could expect the full backs of the 60-70s to produce the same attacking output like the ones 40 years later. Obviously the tactics improved and were quite bit different but I don't think anyone doubted our full back credentials going forward historically.

I'm not sure there's much you can dispute in my post. My basic points were you've got a better attack, Muller/Laudrup look like they could have good games here relative to what they face, Vieira is better than often portrayed on here, and the attacking games of olden days full-backs are overstated relative to modern full-backs.

With respect to the two attacks, they're not competing with each other and what matters is what they're up against. As much as I fully agree with you on Moore, SkizzoPat's defensive core looks a touch stronger in that regard relative to what it faces.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Carlos is not as good as Fachetti

We've not actually claimed that he was better than Facchetti. We're just challenging the perception that Facchetti will both keep Johnstone quiet and provide a meaningful attacking contribution.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not sure there's much you can dispute in my post. My basic points were you've got a better attack, Muller/Laudrup look like they could have good games here relative to what they face, Vieira is better than often portrayed on here, and the attacking games of olden days full-backs are overstated relative to modern full-backs.

With respect to the two attacks, they're not competing with each other and what matters is what they're up against. As much as I fully agree with you on Moore, SkizzoPat's defensive core looks a touch stronger in that regard relative to what it faces.

I don’t see how Skizzo/Pat defense is better equipped containing Messi and Ronaldinho but whatever. You usually always vote against me so no point really trying to change your mind

 

[The Red Viper]

We've not actually claimed that he was better than Facchetti. We're just challenging the perception that Facchetti will both keep Johnstone quiet and provide a meaningful attacking contribution.

Why can't he?

I mean, thats literally what he was known for. Thats why Herrera's Zona Mista worked so well.

Also, you can't just look at it like that.

You have to consider the entire wing.

Ronaldinho - Facchetti vs Johnstone - Andrade & Messi - Carlos Alberto vs Joya - Roberto Carlos.

We have a far far superior advantage down the flanks and its not even close.

 

[The Red Viper]

Viera is a great fit but with the opposition having Beckenbauer I don’t see too much midfield advantage

Agreed. I don't think either side would have too much of a midfield advantage.

However, the same can't be said about the wings.

We are much superior.

The combination of Messi with Carlos Alberto and Ronaldinho with Facchetti is as good as it can get and with Skizzo and Pat having a relatively weak flanks, we will completely dominate the flanks.

 

[crappycraperson]

We've not actually claimed that he was better than Facchetti. We're just challenging the perception that Facchetti will both keep Johnstone quiet and provide a meaningful attacking contribution.

Messi is likely to have upper hand over Carlos, Fachetti likely over Johnstone. I don't think that's a controversial take in anyway.

 

[The Red Viper]

Enigma/TRV have a little more quality sheen going forward, but Skizzo/Pat have head-to-head advantages in key areas. In that sense Muller and Laudrup could be pivotal.

Striker is the only area where Skizzo and Pat have a head to head advantage tbh.

Otherwise we have a much better defense and flanks. Midfields, both are more or less of the same level.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Why can't he?

I mean, thats literally what he was known for. Thats why Herrera's Zona Mista worked so well.

I'll refer you to my first post on the topic where I made my point at more length. If you have counter-examples then by all means share them, as this topic has came up before and it's interesting to get into the nitty-gritty of actual performances rather than just alluding to an older player's general reputation.

It's always an issue when you're facing Facchetti that your winger is liable to be seen as neutralised while Giacinto gallops up the wing at will when they're on the attack. I don't doubt that he was a fantastic defender, and I don't doubt that he was a brilliant attacker too, but I do question whether he fulfilled both roles against quality opposition as often as supposed.

He stuck to his thankless defensive task doggedly vs Jairzinho in the WC 70 final but barely got forward. Against Johnstone's Celtic in the 1967 European Cup Final he man-marked Lennox while Burgnich picked up Johnstone. They did a good job defensively of mostly containing the wingers, at the cost of their attacking contribution and also allowing Celtic to pulverise them through the overlapping Gemmill and through the centre of the pitch. Alfredo Di Stefano touched on this too, outlining a disagreement he had with Munoz about tactics for a match vs Facchetti's Inter. From Sid Lowe's book 'Fear and Loathing in La Liga'

"He drove us mad with Facchetti, giving him an incredible importance," Di Stefano remembered. "Anyone would think he was Gento. So what happened? In the end, Facchetti never attacked us once".

I'm more than happy to be corrected if anyone has compelling evidence to the contrary as he was obviously a truly brilliant player, but I'm not sure at all that he's likely to both contain Jinky and make a difference in the final third.

Roberto Carlos, on the other hand, is never going to be perceived as watertight defensively in an all-time draft, but we know he'll be a menace in our attacking phase.

 

[The Red Viper]

I'll refer you to my first post on the topic where I made my point at more length. If you have counter-examples then by all means share them, as this topic has came up before and it's interesting to get into the nitty-gritty of actual performances rather than just alluding to an older player's general reputation.

That is down to tactics though. Not ability.

Herrera's Zona Mista was a lot about man-marking and defending in numbers, ie 10 odd men behind the ball.

There were many games where Facchetti even had to play as a sweeper as well.

Here, he has been given the license. And he doesn't have to work the entire left flank single-handedly.

 

[The Red Viper]

Aaah well.

This is done.

Congrats @Skizzo & @Pat_Mustard .

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Hard luck @The Red Viper and @Enigma_87 .

 

[MJJ]

Another extremely close match. Was too hard to call for me personally.

 

[Physiocrat]

Another extremely close match. Was too hard to call for me personally.

Me too

 

[Theon]

Decided not to vote as it’s definitely close and didn’t have to read the thread - although looking at the teams (without assessing the arguments) I’d probably lean Enigma/TRV who imo have a bit more quality. There’s been a few instances now in which the team with the bigger names imo gets voted out.

@Pat_Mustard thought it was a mistake to drop Rivaldo personally. Think he’s awesome in the inside left position especially with an overlapping width provider in Carlos. I haven’t read the thread so you may have a reason for dropping him but imo would consider bringing him back next game.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Enigma_87 @The Red Viper you should have kept the faith in robben

 

[Gio]

I don’t see how Skizzo/Pat defense is better equipped containing Messi and Ronaldinho but whatever. You usually always vote against me so no point really trying to change your mind

Checked your last 10 games I voted in. Voted for you 6 times and against 4 times.