The relative strength of the Premier League

Sarni said:
I think you are underestimating Serie A here. While I think Chelsea, United and City would comfortably be top 3 there, I don't think Arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham would find it tough. Juventus are clearly better than them while Roma, Napoli, Milan and Inter are all good teams this season. The strength of Serie A is having basically six or seven teams capable of taking positions right behind Juve.

I think all of top 6 would be top 3 in Germany and France though.
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If you look at the UEFA coefficient points for the traditional top leagues so far this season England are comfortably top whilst Italy are currently second. The early stages give us some indication of the depth of leagues and it appears that Italy are on an upward curve as you say.

The Spanish sides below Barca and Real are struggling this year, the French League has become a one team concern and the BL is absolutely tanking this season.

Changes seem to be afoot.
 
Cnaiür urs Skiötha said:
Tottenham against Dortmund and Chelseas game in Madrid suggest that English teams are competitive on the highest level again.
This CL campaign is one of the most interesting ones for some years.
The big guns like Bayern and Real are struggling a bit, Barca having highs and lows, Paris still a bit of a dark horse and PL teams better than they have been over the past 5 years.
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Sarni said:
Yes, it's the first time since Chelsea win in 2012 that English teams actually look close to the best European sides. There are about 10 teams that could win it this year rather than just the big 3 from Spain, Juve and Bayern.
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lets hold our horses until the knock outs. Arsenal won their group last seasons ahead of PSG, PSG were able to beat Barca 4-0 while Arsenal shipped 10.
 
Theafonis said:
I'm just afraid English teams and fans of English football might be left with egg on their face
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Havak said:
I think the 'top 6' is a pretty unanimous thing amongst most fans. I will be amazed if for this season and even the foreseeable future if United, City, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal don't fill the top six places come the end of the season.
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See you here again and so sooooooon... is it a top 2 already by Sep 30 then? :D
 
In Russia 2018, I guarantee that there will be at least 50-100% more Premier League players than any other league.

It's been like that for the last three or four major tournaments. Even Copa America the PL had more than any other league bar Mexico.

That is certainly one indicator of relative strength.
 
KingMinger22 said:
In Russia 2018, I guarantee that there will be at least 50-100% more Premier League players than any other league.

It's been like that for the last three or four major tournaments. Even Copa America the PL had more than any other league bar Mexico.

That is certainly one indicator of relative strength.
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Don't bother with facts mate, it doesn't mean much with some people.
 
Bepi said:
See you here again and so sooooooon... is it a top 2 already by Sep 30 then? :D
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'Top Anything' is a relative term, as in the six best teams in our League in this instance. The table will even out and the six teams in question will spend the majority of the season there. I don't get why people are finding this so outlandish? The other teams are nowhere near in terms of quality.
 
Wumminator said:
Don't bother with facts mate, it doesn't mean much with some people.
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Wasn't your main argument that the strength of the league is holding the top teams back, but in your opinion the top teams were already elite just couldn't show it in Europe because of the demanding games in England? I'm fairly certain that we even had discussions with a few users on here 2 seasons ago when Leicester won it, that future Premier League winners will struggle to get past 80 points from now on because the small teams are so strong.

The counterargument that English top teams were simply underwhelming and that they'll walk over the smaller teams in the Premier League easily once they get their act together and reach the level of elite teams from other countries was constantly dismissed by you and a few others. Now, we're pretty much there. English top teams are finally starting to look like elite teams again and who would have thought, the bottom half of the Premier League looks like cannonfodder again. Just like it was when English top clubs were dominant in Europe in the second half of the 00's.
 
Clearly this means La Liga is the most competitive league in the world now :wenger:
 
The English teams are uniformly better this year. Spurs seem to have got over their awkwardness in Europe. City are genuinely a strong team. Liverpool are ok, tough to say. Chelsea have a very good strarting XI. And we have a strong XI and bench.
This simply wasn't the case for the last ~6 years, and it'll be really interesting to see how Bayern and Juve in particular respond to this + PSG.

Edit: At the same time, Barca have their weakest XI and squad in years, Madrid have stagnated and lost a bit of depth, Bayern's cycle is clearly ending, and also Sevilla/Dortmund aren't that good. All this isn't just in Europe, except for Barca all these teams also have problems in their own leagues.
 
Wumminator said:
Yes but obviously they’d win the league without breaking a sweat over here....
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You made this shitshow of a thread a year and a half ago when English teams were still dire in Europe. Now you're bumping it when we finally seem to have our act together (in the group stages at least) as if you were right back then :lol:

You're a great WUM but it's just too obvious these days.
 
Massive Spanner said:
You made this shitshow of a thread a year and a half ago when English teams were still dire in Europe. Now you're bumping it when we finally seem to have our act together (in the group stages at least) as if you were right back then :lol:

You're a great WUM but it's just too obvious these days.
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You’re right, this thread can’t possibly be read as everyone taking the piss out of me and then me being ultimately proven right.
 
Wumminator said:
You’re right, this thread can’t possibly be read as everyone taking the piss out of me and then me being ultimately proven right.
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No it wouldn't because you were wrong. Very wrong.

If I said now that English teams are shit in Europe and 18 months from now they go to shit again, am I right?
 
Cycles.

Outside of PSG the rival clubs (Bayern, Madrid, Juve, Atletico, Barca) have all got worse.
 
Wumminator said:
You’re right, this thread can’t possibly be read as everyone taking the piss out of me and then me being ultimately proven right.
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No, because of when it was made, it cannot.

For example if in 1857 you said that China was a world power, you'd be laughed at. If you then lived 150 years and said that history proved you right, you'd simply be laughed at again.
 
Certainly much higher this season. Spurs have improved. City have improved. We are back and with a strong team. Not sure about Liverpool and Chelsea, but they are decent at least.

The top teams have stepped up a lot in the premier league. Mourinho and Pep key in that and also Pochettino having build up a strong Spurs team and Conte done a good job as well.
 
Wumminator said:
You’re right, this thread can’t possibly be read as everyone taking the piss out of me and then me being ultimately proven right.
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Not really, though. The Premier League top teams are much stronger now than they were a year or two. Pretty much every one of the top six aside from Arsenal has improved immeasurably from when you made the thread.
 
I think Spurs and City are absolutely brilliant sides, easily capable of getting to the final stages of the Champions League.
 
Spurs' last two results at Wembley have been a stonking of Liverpool and Madrid. Turning into a fortress.
 
ThierryHenry said:
I think Spurs and City are absolutely brilliant sides, easily capable of getting to the final stages of the Champions League.
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I think Spurs squad will struggle to challenge in both Europe and the latter stages of the CL, and they're over reliant on some individuals. City definitely can though.
 
berbatrick said:
No, because of when it was made, it cannot.

For example if in 1857 you said that China was a world power, you'd be laughed at. If you then lived 150 years and said that history proved you right, you'd simply be laughed at again.
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You’re right it must have happened that in 18 months every single English club has got stronger whereas every single foreign club has got worse.

Come. On.
 
I think English teams are strong this season but let's get down to discussion. The Champions League starts really in February when the knock-out stages start, that when's the big boys start to get themselves together and are strong. You won't see this Madrid, Juventus, Barcelona sides playing poorly when it comes to the crunch.

But I think us and City will have a big chance this season. Spurs were fantastic tonight but it's a different ball-game doing it over two legs in the latter stages
 
Wumminator said:
You’re right it must have happened that in 18 months every single English club has got stronger whereas every single foreign club has got worse.

Come. On.
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Well...five of the six current top English clubs have all improved significantly in the past 18 months. While a couple of the top European clubs have clearly regressed. So yes...I don't see what's so strange about the fortunes of big clubs changing massively over what's effectively two seasons?
 
Wumminator said:
You’re right it must have happened that in 18 months every single English club has got stronger whereas every single foreign club has got worse.

Come. On.
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You're right, it has been exactly the case, apart from Chelsea and PSG though.
 
City look comfortable, we look comfortable, Spurs are vastly exceeding expectations. The only English team that's looking unconvincing is Chelsea. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the aforementioned three can go on to win it. It's just down to how those managers manage their squads and luck with injuries, form etc.

Madrid don't look as good as they have been, Barca are a threat with the form Messi is in, but can he continue carrying them over a whole season? PSG look strong but still look like they'll need time to fully gel. Bayern have been shaky this season.

It's doable.
 
harms said:
You're right, it has been exactly the case, apart from Chelsea and PSG though.
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The thread was originally made back when Chelsea were lingering around mid-table so they've improved massively since then as well. Arsenal are the only ones who I'd say have regressed as opposed to progressed. And even then you could argue they're about a similar level but have just suffered from the sides around them getting better.
 
Cheesy said:
The thread was originally made back when Chelsea were lingering around mid-table so they've improved massively since then as well. Arsenal are the only ones who I'd say have regressed as opposed to progressed. And even then you could argue they're about a similar level but have just suffered from the sides around them getting better.
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No we did better than the previous season. It's just those around us improved by a bigger margin than we did. In fact i think i remember reading somewhere that we average the same number of points every year for the last decade, so we don't improve/regress at all and just keep it consistent.

Another reason for wanting wenger out the club.
 
Wumminator said:
You’re right it must have happened that in 18 months every single English club has got stronger whereas every single foreign club has got worse.

Come. On.
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Yes it has.

Since 2015/16:

Spurs have gelled, in particular their defence and attack, and have added numbers to their midfield. They have improved under Poch every season and are quite good now.

Chelsea have been oscillating, but they showed a definite improvement after the Jose/Hiddink season. They added Kante, Hazard/Costa stopped sulking, and the switch to a 3-4-3 took them to a title. Now they've lost Matic and Kante and seem to have gone down a few levels.

We have added Lukaku, Zlatan, Pogba, Bailly, Matic and Mkhi and have gelled very well defensively under Jose.

City have added Ederson, Stones, Danilo, Walker, Mendy, Gundogan, Sane, Bernardo Silva, and Jesus, and have a very exciting attack under Pep.

Real have their star player, one of the historical top 10 players, 1.5 years older and in the middle of a decline, a series of injuries to Bale, Benzema has dropped off form for about a year now, they've lost Pepe, IMO their best natural defender, they've sold James Rodriguez and finally Morata.

Barca's star, probably the best player ever, has also aged a bit, their main striker has aged a lot more and has been mostly off form, and they've lost the most expensive player in history, a future BPITW (Neymar). Iniesta (and notice the theme!) has aged, Dani Alves left, and Busuqets no longer looks as good without their old playing style.

Bayern is almost uniformly about ageing - Ribery, Robben, and Lahm were three of their best players.

Juve have lost their midfield star and their central defender (Bonucci), the rest of that 3-man CB combination is declining rapidly too (Chiellini and Barzagli), and Buffon is about 40 now.
 
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Certainly has been a huge improvement following incredible investment.

Won’t matter a shite unless pl clubs start winning the thing though.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Certainly has been a huge improvement following incredible investment.

Won’t matter a shite unless pl clubs start winning the thing though.
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Suppose it depends on the wider context. During the PL "golden era" of 04-09 there were only actually two PL wins, one of which involved a team who'd finished 5th somehow winning it against the odds. Generally that's looked upon as a period where the PL was the strongest league in the world but the reality was that it was more just a case of the big four managing to stack themselves in the semi-finals, as opposed to a PL club always winning it. Being generous you could extend that era till Chelsea's win in 2012, but that's still just three out of eight...which is the exact same as Barca managed over the same period, and only one more than Italy...in spite of the fact it was far from the greatest era for Italian football.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Certainly has been a huge improvement following incredible investment.

Won’t matter a shite unless pl clubs start winning the thing though.
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More so than investment - I also think it has to do with our European competitors declining. A lot of Spain's dominance is beginning to dwindle due to age, so too is Juve and Bayern etc. These top, top players that we use to yearn for are starting to come to the end of their careers.

Whereas the English teams have some young, upcoming squads. The Madrid's, Bayern's, Barca's, Juve's etc. are going to have to rebuild their squads over the next few years. Buffon, Cheillini etc. can't play forever.
 
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