The relative strength of the Premier League

I don't think he improved as a player that much. Certainly not to an extent those records show. I believe he joined a team who would go on to dominate games more than United ever did
He played a huge part in making them dominant and so ruthless towards weaker teams. You cannot analyze Real Madrid without taking into account his big impact since he has been there.
 
Even in 2008 arguably our best ever season we only managed +58. Last year both Barcelona and Madrid broke 80, Barcelona almost 90. The relatively poor season before both were still in the 60s. The season before that, both in the 80s again.
Yeah but the PL was the best league in the world in 08, quite comfortably. I don't think Barca or Real would've run away with it back then. They certainly would now.
 
Regarding Twiggs point about La Liga teams running away with the league:

La Liga 14/15: Barcelona 94, Madrid 92, 2 point gap
La Liga 13/14: Atletico 90, Barcelona 87, 3 points gap
La Liga 12/13: Barcelona 100, Madrid 85, 15 point gap
La Liga 11/12: Madrid 100, Barcelona 91, 9 point gap

La Liga 10/11: Barcelona 96, Madrid 92, 4 point gap
La Liga 09/10: Barcelona 99, Madrid 96, 3 point gap
La Liga 08/09: Barcelona 87, Madrid 78, 9 point gap
La Liga 07/08: Madrid 85, Villarreal 77, 8 point gap

La Liga 06/07: Madrid 76, Barcelona 76, 0 point gap
La Liga 05/06: Barcelona 82, Madrid 70, 12 point gap

Premier 14/15: Chelsea 87, City 79, 9 point gap
Premier 13/14: City 86, Liverpool 84, 2 point gap
Premier 12/13: United 89, City 78, 11 point gap
Premier 11/12: City 89, United 89, 0 point gap
Premier 10/11: United 80, Chelsea 71, 9 point gap
Premier 09/10: Chelsea 86, United 85, 1 point gap
Premier 08/09: United 90, Liverpool 86, 4 point gap
Premier 07/08: United 87, Chelsea 85, 2 point gap
Premier 06/07: United 89, Chelsea 83, 6 point gap
Premier 05/06: Chelsea 91, United 83, 8 point gap

Bold is where a team won by more than 5 points.


Obviously in Spain there is a collection of two great teams. This shows here than the difference between first and second in the league is not that great.

However, IMO the difference between these clubs and
2nd
5th
10th would also provide an accurate look at the strength of the league?

Thanks for taking the time to do that though, it does show that indeed not one team in La Liga regularly runs away with it.
 
Yeah but the PL was the best league in the world in 08, quite comfortably. I don't think Barca or Real would've run away with it back then. They certainly would now.

So since 08 what has been the difference Cina?

Have we regressed or have they improved?

And is it down to player recruitment, manager expertise or the continued form of players already in the squad?
 
Even in 2008 arguably our best ever season we only managed +58. Last year both Barcelona and Madrid broke 80, Barcelona almost 90. The relatively poor season before both were still in the 60s. The season before that, both in the 80s again.
Tbh , there is a good discussion on the subject and stats like the ones you brought up are relevant. It is just that Twigg uses some weird arguments.
 
He played a huge part in making them dominant and so ruthless towards weaker teams. You cannot analyze Real Madrid without taking into account his big impact since he has been there.

I don't think in the Premier League he would have been capable of scoring that many goals.
 
Regarding Twigginator's point about La Liga teams running away with the league:

La Liga 14/15: Barcelona 94, Madrid 92, 2 point gap
La Liga 13/14: Atletico 90, Barcelona 87, 3 points gap
La Liga 12/13: Barcelona 100, Madrid 85, 15 point gap
La Liga 11/12: Madrid 100, Barcelona 91, 9 point gap

La Liga 10/11: Barcelona 96, Madrid 92, 4 point gap
La Liga 09/10: Barcelona 99, Madrid 96, 3 point gap
La Liga 08/09: Barcelona 87, Madrid 78, 9 point gap
La Liga 07/08: Madrid 85, Villarreal 77, 8 point gap

La Liga 06/07: Madrid 76, Barcelona 76, 0 point gap
La Liga 05/06: Barcelona 82, Madrid 70, 12 point gap

Premier 14/15: Chelsea 87, City 79, 9 point gap
Premier 13/14: City 86, Liverpool 84, 2 point gap
Premier 12/13: United 89, City 78, 11 point gap
Premier 11/12: City 89, United 89, 0 point gap
Premier 10/11: United 80, Chelsea 71, 9 point gap
Premier 09/10: Chelsea 86, United 85, 1 point gap
Premier 08/09: United 90, Liverpool 86, 4 point gap
Premier 07/08: United 87, Chelsea 85, 2 point gap
Premier 06/07: United 89, Chelsea 83, 6 point gap
Premier 05/06: Chelsea 91, United 83, 8 point gap

Bold is where a team won by more than 5 points.

Stop using facts.:nono:
 
Are you worried about the future state of your league getting left behind massively?
No. I personally think the tv deals in England are a big bubble that will eventually burst because foreign owners exploit the local fans in a crazy way and price the middle class out of the game, not only in the stadium but also on tv. It's proper mental and it'll play a role in the future of English football because it'll mean that less kids will play the game with the necessary love and determination than they do in other countries. They simply won't be able to follow it as closely as former generations did.

It's also plain obvious that the Bundesliga is clearly on the up. The football on show throughout the league is super entertaining and the bottom half teams play on a higher level than they arguably ever have. It's just lazy people who rarely watch games and think they can draw conclusions from the league table influenced by their prejudices who don't see how many small German clubs do a sensational job and play great football.

The Bundesliga has always worked on a smaller budget than all the other top leagues, mostly because our system doesn't allow investors to take control, so there's less (almost no) sugardaddy money in the game. You're obsession with money and comparing the few player names you've heard of over actually comparing the performances keeps you from realising the massive problems in the English game right now, which won't be fixed by throwing money around like crazy. It's even more obvious because the Premier League is more and more ruled by owners, who don't love or understand the game and it shows in the awful scouting and bad youth development throughout the league.

The fact that officials from some of the German or Spanish clubs speak publicly doesn't really change that. Someone like Rummenigge for example is more politician than anything else at the moment and uses whatever he can to up the pressure on the German Football League to get more money through tv deals. But it's a purely egoistic thing (which I actually dislike) and it doesn't mean much regarding the longterm future of the league. The Bundesliga has surpassed both the Serie A and La Liga on in terms of overall revenue and is in a stronger and healthier financial position than ever before. I won't panic just because there's still a big gap to the Premier League. We didn't stop playing football in Germany when all our elite players left for Italy in the 80's and 90's either. Back then, even Bayern couldn't keep any of their German top talents. The situation right now is fecking awesome in comparison.
 
I don't think in the Premier League he would have been capable of scoring that many goals.
Because of what exactly ? Ronaldo would have been by far the best player and most consistent goalscorer. He has done at a level harder than PL in the CL year in year out. What is so special about the PL ? There have been weaker players who have had no issue with scoring goals. Utd would have "just" needed to have better players with him attacking.
 
Strange in a time where La Liga teams consistently make European semi finals/finals that its considered a weak league by some.
 
Strange in a time where La Liga teams consistently make European semi finals/finals that its considered a weak league by some.
Annoying cliche. Spanish teams are just on another level technically and tactically.
 
Obviously in Spain there is a collection of two great teams. This shows here than the difference between first and second in the league is not that great.

However, IMO the difference between these clubs and
2nd
5th
10th would also provide an accurate look at the strength of the league?

Thanks for taking the time to do that though, it does show that indeed not one team in La Liga regularly runs away with it.

There was a claim made that teams running away with the league in Spain meant they could focus more on European competition. The past 10 years shows that La Liga is similar to the Premier League in terms of closeness in the title race by way of points gap. Doesn't that make that particular point void?
 
No. I personally think the tv deals in England are a big bubble that will eventually burst because foreign owners exploit the local fans in a crazy way and price the middle class out of the game, not only in the stadium but also on tv. It's proper mental and it'll play a role in the future of English football because it'll mean that less kids will play the game with the necessary love and determination than they do in other countries. They simply won't be able to follow it as closely as former generations did.

It's also plain obvious that the Bundesliga is clearly on the up. The football on show throughout the league is super entertaining and the bottom half teams play on a higher level than they arguably ever have. It's just lazy people who rarely watch games and think they can draw conclusions from the league table influenced by their prejudices who don't see how many small German clubs do a sensational job and play great football.

The Bundesliga has always worked on a smaller budget than all the other top leagues, mostly because our system doesn't allow investors to take control, so there's less (almost no) sugardaddy money in the game. You're obsession with money and comparing the few player names you've heard of over actually comparing the performances keeps you from realising the massive problems in the English game right now, which won't be fixed by throwing money around like crazy. It's even more obvious because the Premier League is more and more ruled by owners, who don't love or understand the game and it shows in the awful scouting and bad youth development throughout the league.

The fact that officials from some of the German or Spanish clubs speak publicly doesn't really change that. Someone like Rummenigge for example is more politician than anything else at the moment and uses whatever he can to up the pressure on the German Football League to get more money through tv deals. But it's a purely egoistic thing (which I actually dislike) and it doesn't mean much regarding the longterm future of the league. The Bundesliga has surpassed both the Serie A and La Liga on in terms of overall revenue and is in a stronger and healthier financial position than ever before. I won't panic just because there's still a big gap to the Premier League. We didn't stop playing football in Germany when all our elite players left for Italy in the 80's and 90's either. Back then, even Bayern couldn't keep any of their German top talents. The situation right now is fecking awesome in comparison.

Good answer. I agree with you that the pricing of the lower classes out of the game will eventually cause chaos
with English clubs.
 
It's quite funny when Twigg compares the quality of a Premier League team with Bundesliga team and La Liga team and you just know that he has zero clue about players who play for them because he he never watches these terrible dreadful leagues.
 
There was a claim made that teams running away with the league in Spain meant they could focus more on European competition. The past 10 years shows that La Liga is similar to the Premier League in terms of closeness in the title race by way of points gap. Doesn't that make that particular point void?

No, I think the point being that teams in Spain can win the majority of games relatively easier without getting out of third gear whereas the teams in England will have to give higher level of effort.
 
It's quite funny when Twigg compares the quality of a Premier League team with Bundesliga team and La Liga team and you just know that he has zero clue about players who play for them because he he never watches these terrible dreadful leagues.

Do you know anything about that Mains team?
 
So since 08 what has been the difference Cina?

Have we regressed or have they improved?

And is it down to player recruitment, manager expertise or the continued form of players already in the squad?
We have quite obviously regressed. Have the lower teams improved? Maybe, maybe not, it's very hard to say because there's no real way of judging.

Why don't you answer the last question, you seem to have it all figured out, despite constantly contradicting yourself and generally being completely wrong with every point you've made.
 
Another thread to self convince that Premier has some abstract title of best league :confused: .
In this case the debate is about the relative strength but ends up turning on how easy Madrid and Barcelona win.
We can also compare the first,ninth and 17th, why not ? . Leicester compared with this Barcelona of Messi , Neymar and company and we think what makes a competition more interesting, that combination of players, or Vardy and Mahrez(without bitterness), we can compare the 9th, the squad of Valencia against Southampton. Valencia is 9th because is playing bad or because the competition is hard and strong?, the 17th is Sunderland/Rayo. I don´t know any player of Sunderland but probably many of you know Paco Jémez and his football style.
When football was not so global, there was no such comparisons.
 
Another thread to self convince that Premier has some abstract title of best league :confused: .
In this case the debate is about the relative strength but ends up turning on how easy Madrid and Barcelona win.
We can also compare the first,ninth and 17th, why not ? . Leicester compared with this Barcelona of Messi , Neymar and company and we think what makes a competition more interesting, that combination of players, or Vardy and Mahrez(without bitterness), we can compare the 9th, the squad of Valencia against Southampton. Valencia is 9th because is playing bad or because the competition is hard and strong?, the 17th is Sunderland/Rayo. I don´t know any player of Sunderland but probably many of you know Paco Jémez and his football style.
When football was not so global, there was no such comparisons.

You don't know any Sunderland players?
 
Do you know anything about that Mains team?

Only watched them a couple of times this season. They just beat Bayern in Munich. I cannot say I am an expert on them, no. Neither can you which is why it's funny that you try to compare Bundesliga teams to PL teams when you have no clue about the ones that are not in Europe.

BTW United got knocked out from CL by a fecking shit terrible dreadful German team too, you know.
 
You don't know any Sunderland players?

Why would he? They are mostly dreadful. The only ones that will ring a bell for people outside England are the likes of M'Vila who failed elsewhere and ended up there.
 
Why would he? They are mostly dreadful. The only ones that will ring a bell for people outside England are the likes of M'Vila who failed elsewhere and ended up there.

I would have thought players like Wes Brown, John O'Shea, Borini, Kaboul and Kirhchoff were really well known.
 
Why would he? They are mostly dreadful. The only ones that will ring a bell for people outside England are the likes of M'Vila who failed elsewhere and ended up there.

That's what people don't understand, a lot of the big names are in fact failed continental players.
 
I would have thought players like Wes Brown, John O'Shea, Borini, Kaboul and Kirhchoff were really well known.

How the hell are three of them still playing :lol: (Brown, O'Shea and Kaboul).
 
No, I think the point being that teams in Spain can win the majority of games relatively easier without getting out of third gear whereas the teams in England will have to give higher level of effort.

You can see by watching as many games as possible the physical effort put in by the players from each side, but I'm not sure myself which set of statistics could show that the La Liga teams don't get out of third gear in the majority of games.
 
How the hell are three of them still playing :lol: (Brown, O'Shea and Kaboul).

O'Shea is only 34 and coming to the end of his career.

Sunderland have tried to replace these older players with some younger ones, they have a few on loan. Coates is currently starting for Sporting CP and Fletcher is on loan at Marseilles, they have a player I've never heard of who is a regular for Getafe!
 
Even in 2008 arguably our best ever season we only managed +58. Last year both Barcelona and Madrid broke 80, Barcelona almost 90. The relatively poor season before both were still in the 60s. The season before that, both in the 80s again.
Madrid with Ronaldo have been better going forward than United were from 2006-2009. It was not just in La Liga that they scored more goals in, but also in the CL.

United goals in the CL
06/07 23
07/08 20
08/09 18

Madrid goals in the CL
10/11 25
11/12 35
12/13 26
13/14 41
14/15 24

Going forward, Madrid over the years have had much more fire-power than that United team did. That should explain why this Madrid team hammers more teams than that United team, and also, why Ronaldo scores much more goals. It is not just in their domestic league that they scored more goals than that United team, but in the CL too. They have been a better team going forward.
 
O'Shea is only 34 and coming to the end of his career.

Sunderland have tried to replace these older players with some younger ones, they have a few on loan. Coates is currently starting for Sporting CP and Fletcher is on loan at Marseilles, they have a player I've never heard of who is a regular for Getafe!

Vergini (the one at Getafe) was a regular at Sunderland a couple seasons back. O'Shea and Brown have been past their sell by date for about 3 seasons. I can't believe Kaboul still plays football.
 
Nope the league was stronger 5-6 years ago. The mid table clubs are better now and with the top clubs being relatively weak it's more open but thats about it.

Any of of the top sides like United, Chelsea etc. from 2004-2010 would walk this league right now.
 
I would have thought players like Wes Brown, John O'Shea, Borini, Kaboul and Kirhchoff were really well known.
Kirchoff? Seriously? Brown and O'Shea are obviously well known. Kaboul and Borini I don't think so.

I imagine for Spanish fans Rayo players are better regognized than Sunderland players. Bottom line is you seem to think that if you don't know a player then he's crap (like your dismissal of Mainz or saying that Rayo are crap because you only know 3 players). Your lack of knowledge and ignorance towards continental football has nothing to do with quality.