The relative strength of the Premier League

[Zehner]

It's founded on shaky grounds as you're painting the attitude of an entire country a certain way based on the fact that UK football's governing body refused to participate in world cups seventy or eighty years ago, along with some anecdotal evidence of Jamie Carragher calling La Liga a joke league (again, he's paid to have opinions that get people riled up, or at least talking). Surely you can see how nonsensical that is?

The history is interesting context but not the reason we're having this discussion. By now EPL fans have a reputation in other countries not because of what happened in the past but because of how they (and representatives of English football in whatever capacity) have conducted themselves. It's an internet meme already and most people who use it have no idea that the UK refused to take part in world cups because they thought it was below them. I didn't know it either but have to say, I wasn't surprised and had to chuckle a bit

 

[Rooney in Paris]

The history is interesting context but not the reason we're having this discussion. By now EPL fans have a reputation in other countries not because of what happened in the past but because of how they (and representatives of English football in whatever capacity) have conducted themselves. It's an internet meme already and most people who use it have no idea that the UK refused to take part in world cups because they thought it was below them. I didn't know it either but have to say, I wasn't surprised and had to chuckle a bit

Expand on this please.

 

[Zehner]

Expand on this please.

For years, EPL fans posted farmer's league comments in the comment sections of the social media presences of Bundesliga clubs, numerous pundits have displayed the same sentiment, there were reports that Southgate doesn't rate the Bundesliga and hence picks EPL players before them, etc. The football's coming home crowds during the last EC probably played a role in it as well. It's just common sentiment by now. Italiansmake that famous gesture when they discuss with the referee, the Dutch play beautiful football but don't win when it matters most, Brazilians are artists on the ball and English fans look down on other leagues/countries.

edit: Oh, I almost forgot the "but can he do it on a cold, rainy night in Stoke City?" That one is used over here quite frequently as well by now. The whole EPL proven idea, basically.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

For years, EPL fans posted farmer's league comments in the comment sections of the social media presences of Bundesliga clubs, numerous pundits have displayed the same sentiment, there were reports that Southgate doesn't rate the Bundesliga and hence picks EPL players before them, etc. The football's coming home crowds during the last EC probably played a role in it as well. It's just common sentiment by now. Italiansmake that famous gesture when they discuss with the referee, the Dutch play beautiful football but don't win when it matters most, Brazilians are artists on the ball and English fans look down on other leagues/countries.

Sounds like a summary of your feelings, rather than what I've heard when travelling and discussing football with locals. They don't particularly like the English because they're loud and obnoxious when they get drunk, but the above isn't a general sentiment as you're trying to make out.

Or maybe it is in Germany, if people are overly sensitive about online anonymous comments.

 

[Pickle85]

Sounds like a summary of your feelings, rather than what I've heard when travelling and discussing football with locals. They don't particularly like the English because they're loud and obnoxious when they get drunk, but the above isn't a general sentiment as you're trying to make out.

Or maybe it is in Germany, if people are overly sensitive about online anonymous comments.

Agreed. I think it's the echo chamber effect of football forums and football social media, it's not representative of English fans as a whole or how we're perceived 'offline' (as you say, the most common perception/misconception is that we're all drunk thugs, which is even worse!)

Also, it's hilarious that we're in 2024 and there's still discussion that 'football coming home' is anything other than a combination of tongue in cheek and a catchy tune.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Agreed. I think it's the echo chamber effect of football forums and football social media, it's not representative of English fans as a whole or how we're perceived 'offline' (as you say, the most common perception/misconception is that we're all drunk thugs, which is even worse!)

Also, it's hilarious that we're in 2024 and there's still discussion that 'football coming home' is anything other than a combination of tongue in cheek and a catchy tune.

Yeah, "annoying drunken louts" is the image the English have (not restricted to football fans in fact, but enhanced in that case), bar managers on the continent are glad when there is a game with travelling British fans cos they know they're gonna make a killing, and locals are annoyed.

As for the "it's coming home", exactly like you said, no one really takes it seriously.

 

[Zehner]

Sounds like a summary of your feelings, rather than what I've heard when travelling and discussing football with locals. They don't particularly like the English because they're loud and obnoxious when they get drunk, but the above isn't a general sentiment as you're trying to make out.

Or maybe it is in Germany, if people are overly sensitive about online anonymous comments.

I can guarantee you it isn't. Mats Hummels for instance tweeted "Good harvesting this week my fellow farmers" on Friday. As said, it has become a meme by now.

Edit: In an interview after the game against Arsenal, Bayern's new DoF Max Eberl was asked "Is the Bundesliga better than it's reputation? The English people always call it 'farmer's league'". As said, common knowledge.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I can guarantee you it isn't. Mats Hummels for instance tweeted "Good harvesting this week my fellow farmers" on Friday. As said, it has become a meme by now.

Edit: In an interview after the game against Arsenal, Bayern's new DoF Max Eberl was asked "Is the Bundesliga better than it's reputation? The English people always call it 'farmer's league'". As said, common knowledge.

So, you and a couple of other sensitive German people?

Not particularly surprising considering their lack of sense of humour that is "common knowledge"

 

[tomaldinho1]

I can guarantee you it isn't. Mats Hummels for instance tweeted "Good harvesting this week my fellow farmers" on Friday. As said, it has become a meme by now.

Edit: In an interview after the game against Arsenal, Bayern's new DoF Max Eberl was asked "Is the Bundesliga better than it's reputation? The English people always call it 'farmer's league'". As said, common knowledge.

The farmer's league thing was originally about Ligue 1 from memory, then it just became a joke about any league that wasn't the PL.

Just to check, you do realise the Farmer's league joke is about signing players not just a slur on the league itself? i.e. Ligue 1 (who the joke was about orignally not the Bundesliga ) was a farmer's league for the PL because the PL was signing so many players from Ligue 1 and not the other way? The BL does sell a lot of players to the PL, as do most leagues.

 

[JPRouve]

The farmer's league thing was originally about Ligue 1 from memory, then it just became a joke about any league that wasn't the PL.

Just to check, you do realise the Farmer's league joke is about signing players not just a slur on the league itself? i.e. Ligue 1 (who the joke was about orignally not the Bundesliga ) was a farmer's league for the PL because the PL was signing so many players from Ligue 1 and not the other way? The BL does sell a lot of players to the PL, as do most leagues.

It's not, that's what some have tried to pivot to after being called out. The reason it was used against Ligue 1 was a dig to PSG, their performances didn't matter because they were playing against farmers, in fact at the time Guingamp were one of the laughing examples due to the size of the city.

 

[Zehner]

The farmer's league thing was originally about Ligue 1 from memory, then it just became a joke about any league that wasn't the PL.

Just to check, you do realise the Farmer's league joke is about signing players not just a slur on the league itself? i.e. Ligue 1 (who the joke was about orignally not the Bundesliga ) was a farmer's league for the PL because the PL was signing so many players from Ligue 1 and not the other way? The BL does sell a lot of players to the PL, as do most leagues.

Yes, I'm aware But I think it is used in different contexts. Some used it to refer to the Bundesliga as a league consisting of farmer teams (for Bayern or the EPL), others simply to take a dig at the quality of the league (as in: "It's a farmer's league, the player would never reproduce these stats in the EPL"). Funnily, the German translation "Bauernliga" was used for as long as I can remember in a similar fashion but primarily regarding amateur football. Which probably had to do with the lower amateur leagues consisting of many clubs from small villages. I guess there exists no prerogative of interpretation, people apply it in different contexts.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

It's not, that's what some have tried to pivot to after being called out. The reason it was used against Ligue 1 was a dig to PSG, their performances didn't matter because they were playing against farmers, in fact at the time Guingamp were one of the laughing examples due to the size of the city.

I mean, I genuinely think it means a bit of both - it's one of those phrases that has become so commonplace (and so fun to use as it's ridiculously stupid and apparently riles people up) that it's impossible to know where it originated, what it really meant originally, or even if it did ever have an "original meaning".

 

[jadajos]

Yes, I'm aware But I think it is used in different contexts. Some used it to refer to the Bundesliga as a league consisting of farmer teams (for Bayern or the EPL), others simply to take a dig at the quality of the league (as in: "It's a farmer's league, the player would never reproduce these stats in the EPL"). Funnily, the German translation "Bauernliga" was used for as long as I can remember in a similar fashion but primarily regarding amateur football. Which probably had to do with the lower amateur leagues consisting of many clubs from small villages. I guess there exists no prerogative of interpretation, people apply it in different contexts.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this whole point tbh. Are you compaining about the term? Just because Dortmund had a bit of luck with the draw doesn't mean they are now better than the top EPL sides. I'm German, but I stopped watching Bundesliga many years ago, as it was just too boring watching Bayern win 23234 times in a row. To be fair, it's currently only barely better in EPL due to 115 charges FC teaming up with the best manager in the world.

 

[Zehner]

So, you and a couple of other sensitive German people?

Not particularly surprising considering their lack of sense of humour that is "common knowledge"

There are always exceptions to the rules I mean, reading you make the same joke for the hundredth time (and not even a particularly funny or inventive one), nobody would believe you stem from the same country as Monty Python either. Considering that you are seriously unfunny and seem to be quite sensitive of people having a bit of harmless fun on your costs, maybe you have German heritage yourself?

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this whole point tbh. Are you compaining about the term? Just because Dortmund had a bit of luck with the draw doesn't mean they are now better than the top EPL sides. I'm German, but I stopped watching Bundesliga many years ago, as it was just too boring watching Bayern win 23234 times in a row. To be fair, it's currently only barely better in EPL due to 115 charges FC teaming up with the best manager in the world.

Read the last posts before this discussion The discussion was about whether or not the English look down on other leagues, rightfully or not. I just wanted to show that they have that reputation not because of history but how they conduct themselves in social media, etc. Personally, I can understand everybody who turns his back to the Bundesliga over the Bayern dominance of the last decade.

 

[JPRouve]

I mean, I genuinely think it means a bit of both - it's one of those phrases that has become so commonplace (and so fun to use as it's ridiculously stupid and apparently riles people up) that it's impossible to know where it originated, what it really meant originally, or even if it did ever have an "original meaning".

Nope.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Nope.

What do you mean?

You know what the phrase means?

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's not, that's what some have tried to pivot to after being called out. The reason it was used against Ligue 1 was a dig to PSG, their performances didn't matter because they were playing against farmers, in fact at the time Guingamp were one of the laughing examples due to the size of the city.

Why would random football fans 'pivot' after being called out, they'd lap it up?

It also makes a lot more sense as a metaphor for them farming players (it's just replacing the idea of being a feeder club) than essentially saying 'you're league is shit because you're playing farmers' when anyone over the age of 5 knows about the bigger French teams like Marseille, Auxerre, Lyon, Monaco etc. Saying that, maybe I'm giving too much credit to internet trolls.

We had a thread on it a few years back from memory.

 

[stefan92]

Why would random football fans 'pivot' after being called out, they'd lap it up?

It also makes a lot more sense as a metaphor for them farming players (it's just replacing the idea of being a feeder club) than essentially saying 'you're league is shit because you're playing farmers' when anyone over the age of 5 knows about the bigger French teams like Marseille, Auxerre, Lyon, Monaco etc. Saying that, maybe I'm giving too much credit to internet trolls.

We had a thread on it a few years back from memory.

The average obnoxious noisy drunk Englishman doesn't give the impression that he ever heard about those clubs. Maybe I'm giving them to little credit, but that's how it appears.

 

[jadajos]

Nope.

Language is dynamic. The word "nice" comes from the Latin 'nescius,' meaning 'ignorant.' Over the centuries, 'nice' has transformed in meaning through stages like 'foolish' and 'delicate' to its current meaning of 'pleasant' or 'agreeable.'

The meaning of a word derives from its use not from its original intention.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The average obnoxious noisy drunk Englishman doesn't give the impression that he ever heard about those clubs. Maybe I'm giving them to little credit, but that's how it appears.

They aren't the ones posting online though, it's mostly teenagers and bots

 

[JPRouve]

Language is dynamic. The word "nice" comes from the Latin 'nescius,' meaning 'ignorant.' Over the centuries, 'nice' has transformed in meaning through stages like 'foolish' and 'delicate' to its current meaning of 'pleasant' or 'agreeable.'

The meaning of a word derives from its use not from its original intention.

The point wasn't about etymology but the context. But thanks for the lesson.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

The point wasn't about etymology but the context. But thanks for the lesson.

The context of what?

 

[Kwabs]

It's founded on shaky grounds as you're painting the attitude of an entire country a certain way based on the fact that UK football's governing body refused to participate in world cups seventy or eighty years ago, along with some anecdotal evidence of Jamie Carragher calling La Liga a joke league (again, he's paid to have opinions that get people riled up, or at least talking). Surely you can see how nonsensical that is?

I'm not 'painting the attitude of an entire country' I'm talking about football fans and football media in England. And not all, but a majority or at least a large proportion (of the fans - the media is pretty unanimous as far as I can tell). The fans largely follow the propaganda of the media. That's how propaganda works.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, what exactly is your position? Do you think that by and large the English football media and fans in fact have a healthy respect for the quality of the other top leagues (in the same way that the Germans, Spanish and Italians generally have for the Premier League)? If so, what is the 'evidence' of that? Because for all your talk of 'anecdotal' asides and 'shaky ground', you haven't actually provided any evidence at all to support your position, whatever it is.

 

[Theonas]

I'm not 'painting the attitude of an entire country' I'm talking about football fans and football media in England. And not all, but a majority or at least a large proportion (of the fans - the media is pretty unanimous as far as I can tell). The fans largely follow the propaganda of the media. That's how propaganda works.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, what exactly is your position? Do you think that by and large the English football media and fans in fact have a healthy respect for the quality of the other top leagues (in the same way that the Germans, Spanish and Italians generally have for the Premier League)? If so, what is the 'evidence' of that? Because for all your talk of 'anecdotal' asides and 'shaky ground', you haven't actually provided any evidence at all to support your position, whatever it is.

Any country that has cultural influence and financial superiority rarely displays much respect or acknowledgment of others. It's why Americans don't learn other languages as much as Europeans and why they play their own sport and call the winner world champions. It's the same for the English with other Europeans. Everybody speaks their language to accomodate them. Their players go abroad less often than Italians or Germans coming to theirs and more people in the world watch their league and talk about it. How can that not lead to feeling a bit superior and caring less about other leagues? Is it ignorant? Yes but it's also just human nature and everyone does it. Europeans will complain that Americans are ignorant who don't know the difference between Sweden and Switzerland but Europeans will display the exact same ignorance when it comes to Africa or Asia. Of course I am generalizing and speaking mainly about the mainstream.

 

[Pickle85]

I'm not 'painting the attitude of an entire country' I'm talking about football fans and football media in England. And not all, but a majority or at least a large proportion (of the fans - the media is pretty unanimous as far as I can tell). The fans largely follow the propaganda of the media. That's how propaganda works.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, what exactly is your position? Do you think that by and large the English football media and fans in fact have a healthy respect for the quality of the other top leagues (in the same way that the Germans, Spanish and Italians generally have for the Premier League)? If so, what is the 'evidence' of that? Because for all your talk of 'anecdotal' asides and 'shaky ground', you haven't actually provided any evidence at all to support your position, whatever it is.

In a previous post you called it 'a point of national pride', which goes beyond what you're now claiming (a majority of the football fans). My original points were that 1. this kind of generalisation is unhelpful and divisive and 2. that the fact that the league is comprised substantially of foreign imports should have absolutely no bearing on any sense of pride British people feel for the league. As the nationality of the players that make it up doesn't change the fact that the league's quality is high.

This is the last time I'm going to reply to you on this as we've been going round in circles for days now, so feel free to jump in and have the last word.

 

[Kwabs]

In a previous post you called it 'a point of national pride', which goes beyond what you're now claiming (a majority of the football fans). My original points were that 1. this kind of generalisation is unhelpful and divisive and 2. that the fact that the league is comprised substantially of foreign imports should have absolutely no bearing on any sense of pride British people feel for the league. As the nationality of the players that make it up doesn't change the fact that the league's quality is high.

This is the last time I'm going to reply to you on this as we've been going round in circles for days now, so feel free to jump in and have the last word.

Yes, a point of national pride amongst football fans, not a point of national pride like World War 2 or Winston Churchill FFS. You misunderstood what I was saying from the start, but hey-ho.

 

[Kwabs]

Any country that has cultural influence and financial superiority rarely displays much respect or acknowledgment of others. It's why Americans don't learn other languages as much as Europeans and why they play their own sport and call the winner world champions. It's the same for the English with other Europeans. Everybody speaks their language to accomodate them. Their players go abroad less often than Italians or Germans coming to theirs and more people in the world watch their league and talk about it. How can that not lead to feeling a bit superior and caring less about other leagues? Is it ignorant? Yes but it's also just human nature and everyone does it. Europeans will complain that Americans are ignorant who don't know the difference between Sweden and Switzerland but Europeans will display the exact same ignorance when it comes to Africa or Asia. Of course I am generalizing and speaking mainly about the mainstream.

I agree with much of what you've said here, but the other guy doesn't seem to think that this sentiment exists in English people at all.

Which is not to say that all English people are like that, or that there are not a lot of broadminded people in the UK, but history does shape attitudes to a large degree.

 

[Pickle85]

Yes, a point of national pride amongst football fans, not a point of national pride like World War 2 or Winston Churchill FFS. You misunderstood what I was saying from the start, but hey-ho.

You misarticulated it from the beginning, or you're shifting position. But hey-ho.

 

[Theonas]

I agree with much of what you've said here, but the other guy doesn't seem to think that this sentiment exists in English people at all.

Which is not to say that all English people are like that, or that there are not a lot of broadminded people in the UK, but history does shape attitudes to a large degree.

Fair enough. Oh it definitely exists!

I am not English but I definitely don't blame them for it. In fact I think they're still extremely humble considering how much the entire world works around them

 

[devaneios]

Fair enough. Oh it definitely exists! I am not English but I definitely don't blame them for it. In fact I think they're still extremely humble considering how much the entire world works around them

I didn't ask you before because I always try to be empathetic and thus I preferred to understand you were only referring to English football in your analogy, although those two first lines were very strange, but it seems that wasn't the case...So do you think it is understandable to English people to be arrogant because other country made their language the most important worldwide(as far as I know, French was the most important language in the West when England was the most powerful anglophone nation)? Which kind of cultural influence does England have over Europe? Does English culture include the American entertainment industry? Which kind of financial superiority does England have over France, Germany, Netherlands etc? How does Europe work around them?

 

[Kwabs]

You misarticulated it from the beginning, or you're shifting position. But hey-ho.

Nope and nope. I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying but of course, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

By the way, well done for sticking to your promise re your 'last response' (two responses ago). Maybe you'll be charitable enough to actually let me 'get the last word' this time round. We can but hope!

Good talk

 

[Theonas]

I didn't ask you before because I always try to be empathetic and thus I preferred to understand you were only referring to English football in your analogy, although those two first lines were very strange, but it seems that wasn't the case...So do you think it is understandable to English people to be arrogant because other country made their language the most important worldwide(as far as I know, French was the most important language in the West when England was the most powerful anglophone nation)? Which kind of cultural influence does England have over Europe? Does English culture include the American entertainment industry? Which kind of financial superiority does England have over France, Germany, Netherlands etc? How does Europe work around them?

I think language is a big one yes. If you want to be at the top of almost any modern field, being able to communicate in English is pretty much essential. If an alien came to Europe and asked which one language could I pick up that would help me get by the most almost anywhere, that would be English. Make that the world actually, not just Europe. Native English speakers are the people least likely in the world to ever need learn another language from a practical point of view. When it comes to culture also, you look at the dominant forces in terms of music and film for example and the reach of America worldwide and Britain in Europe is just massive. Football is a bit different as Spanish and Italian football is probably bigger or at least as big in South America and Africa but when it comes to resources in football, it's just no competition. La Liga don't even have goal line technology for goodness sake. The quality of the PL goes up and down like every other league but the way it's produced and organised, quality of stadiums and infrastracture is just miles ahead and it has been for a decades now. I don't think that leads to arrogance necessarily, it just leads to people caring less as they have less reason to be curious. Curiosity has to come from other sources for them as opposed to other people who have to adapt to the world more.

 

[Kwabs]

I can guarantee you it isn't. Mats Hummels for instance tweeted "Good harvesting this week my fellow farmers" on Friday. As said, it has become a meme by now.

Edit: In an interview after the game against Arsenal, Bayern's new DoF Max Eberl was asked "Is the Bundesliga better than it's reputation? The English people always call it 'farmer's league'". As said, common knowledge.

I also recall Mbappe making reference to the 'farmers' league' thing on social media. It is so disrespectful, to be quite honest.

 

[Zehner]

I also recall Mbappe making reference to the 'farmers' league' thing on social media. It is so disrespectful, to be quite honest.

I guess the French are just oversensitive and don't have humour either

 

[Kwabs]

I guess the French are just oversensitive and don't have humour either

Indeed. Fragile bunch

 

[Acrobat7]

How strong can a league actually be if a rubbish team like Everton doesn't get relegated even after a points deduction?

 

[SilentWitness]

How strong can a league actually be if a rubbish team like Everton doesn't get relegated even after a points deduction?

Maybe we aren't that bad. According to xG and xGA stats we would be around 10th which I think is a fair evaluation of our season.

 

[Acrobat7]

Maybe we aren't that bad. According to xG and xGA stats we would be around 10th which I think is a fair evaluation of our season.

Even worse! How strong is a league were Everton is expected to come in 10th?

 

[SilentWitness]

Even worse! How strong is a league were Everton is expected to come in 10th?

As always it is overstated and understated how good/bad teams are.