We made a series of big mistakes in an environment that has little to no margin for error, that we still have a chance to compete is testament to the strength of the United brand otherwise we'd be like Arsenal or worse do a Leeds. The tragedy at United is that an incompetent board gave the same guy who fecked us over the time to do more damage and even allowed him the space to make crucial appointments like his successor and DOF thereby limiting the extent to which we can repair the damage he has done.
The reasons for Manchester United's continuing on-pitch decline?
- Thread starter LawCharltonBest
- Start date
I was talking about the abysmal lowering of standards that some people have supported in the last few years. Dunno what you are on about.
There are many reasons but poor coaching and recruitment are the two glaring ones. David Gill being replaced by Woodward was also a disaster as others have said.
I agree but Gill obviously knew the Glazers were absent owners and had neglected any kind of succession plan. Fergie was the one who kept the whole club together. He did multiple peoples jobs, he was the DOF and manager.
As you said, I don’t think they could have done anything to stop him. Gill just thought screw this, I am at retirement age and I’m not about to put myself through loads of stress for the Glazers who don’t even care about the club.
First thing I noticed after SAF retired. Was that defeats ,even draws,became acceptable in the post match interview, that’s were it all began. Under SAF in the post match after a defeat or draw (other then possibly vs rival) you could tell he’d be annoyed, he’d be angry, he blame something, say the team wasn’t good etc. Under Moyes that went away and draws/defeats just became acceptable and then the narrative shifted to rebuild, we’ve been rebuilding ever seen.
In that that time man city have had 2-3 rebuilds but you’ve never actually heard them say “ohhh it’s ok we’re rebuilding so we can lose”
Liverpool rebuilt under Klopp, never heard that word used. Chelsea have had 4-5 rebuilds, again never heard them use the word “rebuild”. Rebuilding, or reboot under Ole, has just become an excuse that the managers and players have used.
Basically our club has lost the mentality to win and compete.
Many things. The Glazers appointing an incompetent person to lead the club. But to be fair you have to say that they have spent the money. Wrongly spent by Woodward. Then SAF and other ex players going on the offensive and saying that United is not a sacking club. Hiring ex players into important positions. Not hiring the competent managers.
with the ex players it is like they think this is still 1999. No, this is 2022 and new ways and new style of playing football. Just because Fergie did it in 2000 they think the same is going to work now.
In hindsight hiring Jose was the biggest mistake we did. If they did not want LVG, push him upstairs and as DOF and give him the job of structuring the club. Or should have got someone like Ralf then as a DOF.
with the ex players it is like they think this is still 1999. No, this is 2022 and new ways and new style of playing football. Just because Fergie did it in 2000 they think the same is going to work now.
In hindsight hiring Jose was the biggest mistake we did. If they did not want LVG, push him upstairs and as DOF and give him the job of structuring the club. Or should have got someone like Ralf then as a DOF.
Honestly, it's this 'Manc born and bred' and 'united way' protection that makes our squad very complacent.
We give contracts to people out of form and barely playing.
We don't sell people when we should, instead hang onto them for new managers to make the same judgement.
It's no coincidence we are a bunch of guys who turn up, give it a half assed attempt then post on social media later.
Only once we change that attitude and it starts from the boardroom will we turn it around.
We give contracts to people out of form and barely playing.
We don't sell people when we should, instead hang onto them for new managers to make the same judgement.
It's no coincidence we are a bunch of guys who turn up, give it a half assed attempt then post on social media later.
Only once we change that attitude and it starts from the boardroom will we turn it around.
It’s much more nuanced than many of the responses so far.
The owners bought a club that functioned so so smoothly due to Gill and obviously most importantly of all, Ferguson and the stability that brought.
For the first seven years of their ownership, a hands off approach was exactly what was needed. The problem came when Ferguson was due to retire and the owners placed all their trust in Fergie and Gill regarding the succession planning.
In hindsight they should’ve been employing someone like Ragnick as DoF even whilst SAF was still here, to help assemble a squad for the new manager, but that simply wouldn’t have been accepted. So instead, they trusted Gill and Fergie (which was completely understandable, it was footballing people making a footballing decision) with the absolutely astonishingly poor appointment of Moyes.
They then made two, if we’re honest, rather panic appointments with LVG and Mourinho, thinking that a World renowned coach and some big money players would “sort it” but by that point our squad had fallen too far behind other clubs with bigger or similar budgets and what may have worked as a simple solution/quick fix in 2004 (top coach, buy Pogba, Zlatan, Mikhi) was not going to work now, and it took them a shed load of money and two coaches to realise that. Mourinho was such a winner until that point, ao again, I get why they thought it was the right appointment, I did too, as did a hell of a lot of our fans.
Then came biggest feck up of all for me, they clearly shit the bed again when Mourinho lost his head and went back to Fergie and Gill for advice. This resulted in the Ole/Phelan appointment, which may have worked fine as an interim role before changing the structure upstairs and bringing in a new manager through that. Sadly though, we got that incredibly unfortunate “bounce” which convinced everyone at the club (and let’s be honest, a large portion of our fanbase) to embark on an outrageously expensive and naive as feck project that an ex-Fergie assistant and Fergie student would be enough to challenge Pep and Klopp. We wasted 3 and a half fecking years on that naivety.
I personally can excuse some of the above, I can understand why these decisions were made. I thought Moyes and Ole were idiotic decisions from the off, but it was clear they came from the advice of the greatest manager ever who had earned the trust of the owners. The idea that Woodward has been the sole problem is a daft one due to this, we can and have let footballing people help make 50% of our post SAF appointments and fecked them up too so it’s not simply a case of “footballing people making decisions = good decisions”. LVG and Mourinho I was completely behind as appointments.
This appointment feels very very different though, they know there’s no quick fix, and they know better than to lean on the advice of the advisory board. It’s now on the club to realise from their past mistake, and poor succession planning and instead put a structure in place. Bringing in RR, if used properly feels like they may have learned something, but the proof will of course be in the pudding. Will they use RR as hoped and have him upstairs helping the new manager to implement his vision? Or will they fall back on another Mou/LVG mistake.
The owners bought a club that functioned so so smoothly due to Gill and obviously most importantly of all, Ferguson and the stability that brought.
For the first seven years of their ownership, a hands off approach was exactly what was needed. The problem came when Ferguson was due to retire and the owners placed all their trust in Fergie and Gill regarding the succession planning.
In hindsight they should’ve been employing someone like Ragnick as DoF even whilst SAF was still here, to help assemble a squad for the new manager, but that simply wouldn’t have been accepted. So instead, they trusted Gill and Fergie (which was completely understandable, it was footballing people making a footballing decision) with the absolutely astonishingly poor appointment of Moyes.
They then made two, if we’re honest, rather panic appointments with LVG and Mourinho, thinking that a World renowned coach and some big money players would “sort it” but by that point our squad had fallen too far behind other clubs with bigger or similar budgets and what may have worked as a simple solution/quick fix in 2004 (top coach, buy Pogba, Zlatan, Mikhi) was not going to work now, and it took them a shed load of money and two coaches to realise that. Mourinho was such a winner until that point, ao again, I get why they thought it was the right appointment, I did too, as did a hell of a lot of our fans.
Then came biggest feck up of all for me, they clearly shit the bed again when Mourinho lost his head and went back to Fergie and Gill for advice. This resulted in the Ole/Phelan appointment, which may have worked fine as an interim role before changing the structure upstairs and bringing in a new manager through that. Sadly though, we got that incredibly unfortunate “bounce” which convinced everyone at the club (and let’s be honest, a large portion of our fanbase) to embark on an outrageously expensive and naive as feck project that an ex-Fergie assistant and Fergie student would be enough to challenge Pep and Klopp. We wasted 3 and a half fecking years on that naivety.
I personally can excuse some of the above, I can understand why these decisions were made. I thought Moyes and Ole were idiotic decisions from the off, but it was clear they came from the advice of the greatest manager ever who had earned the trust of the owners. The idea that Woodward has been the sole problem is a daft one due to this, we can and have let footballing people help make 50% of our post SAF appointments and fecked them up too so it’s not simply a case of “footballing people making decisions = good decisions”. LVG and Mourinho I was completely behind as appointments.
This appointment feels very very different though, they know there’s no quick fix, and they know better than to lean on the advice of the advisory board. It’s now on the club to realise from their past mistake, and poor succession planning and instead put a structure in place. Bringing in RR, if used properly feels like they may have learned something, but the proof will of course be in the pudding. Will they use RR as hoped and have him upstairs helping the new manager to implement his vision? Or will they fall back on another Mou/LVG mistake.
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He's giving Gill a serious get out of jail free card here. He and Fergie were the succession plan, and they came up with Moyes. The best both could come up with wasn't a new restructure or binging in a Ralf Ragnick to succession plan, it was to try replicating Fergie. Both still sit on our advisory board to this date, both clearly had a large part to play in the Phelan/Ole debacle.
Moving away from Gill/Fergie and the Fergie era is step one for our board to move on, step two is employing people like Ragnick to instead make these decisions going forward. Even that is no guarantee, but all of Woodward, Fergie and Gill have failed so far to find a solution, so it's time other people are tried out.
I see SAF mentioned a lot in these types of discussions. Is he guilty in anything other than underestimating his own greatness and overestimating the ability of another person to carry on doing what he did in the same structure and way?
A cumulation of terrible mistakes on all levels, starting from Fergies last year
Yes, I think this thread has it pretty much covered. Appalling lack of coherence and strategy from a club dominated by finance rather than football.
Everything from the owners down stinks.
He’s “guilty” of getting it wrong on Moyes, and shares some of the blame for Ole/Phelan.
Guilty is an odd word though, we could’ve had Ragnick there suggesting managers and solutions and still got it wrong. I don’t really think we should “blame” him, and yes, I certainly think he has underestimated his own greatness when recommending new managers to the board.
It’s the same with Woodward and co. for me also. I can’t blame them for listening to SAF and Gill who’d never let the club down, they could easily have picked a great manager and strategy that worked out great. Likewise I don’t blame them for trying to bring in big managers like LVG and Mourinho and to spend big.
With hindsight it’s easy to say they should never have listened to SAF/Gill and that they never should have employed the likes of Mourinho.
I think all should share the blame for Ole/Phelan, and I think they have now arrived at a point when no-one in charge of the club or sitting on the advisory board can hide behind excuses. It’s crystal clear now that a new structure and new vision is required that takes us away from the Fergie era and that also isn’t just about, big name manager, big name players.
This next appointment and the structure above that man really will tell us if they have learned their lessons.
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Easy to explain. Shit for brains football management since Sir Alex retired.
I couldn’t agree more. Gill must have given a terrible handover to Ed Woodward. As you say, Gill himself only ever knew how to operate with Fergie. He was old fashioned and probably totally unequipped to advise Ed Woodward on how to implement a modern structure.
It will be interesting if we appoint Ten Hag, I would take that to mean that we are clearly listening to the new guard (Ralf, Murtough etc). If we go for Poch then it’s clear that the old guard are still being listened too (Fergie, Charlton etc).
I agree with you that Fergie has had his chance, he has advised some bad decisions that weren’t in the best interests of the club. There’s much more but appointing Ole, filling the whole coaching staff and backroom staff with ex Fergie players. Even bringing in an ex Fergie player in Ronaldo. We desperately need to cut the cord and move on from Fergie.
In the past 10 years, how many PL clubs did better than us? It is only three: City, Liverpool and Chelsea.
From the rest, Spurs had a few good years but won absolutely nothing, Arsenal has been doing worse than us, Leicester won a championship but on the average they are doing worse. Everyone else is further below.
So, the question is: why did those three clubs do better than us? Well, Liverpool has a better manager. City has a better manager and more money. Chelsea has (had) more money. It's either a manager or a lot of money.
This simplified analysis shows that our main problem is to find a manager who is better than those three. It is easy to say that, but it is really hard to find someone better than both Pep and Klopp.
From the rest, Spurs had a few good years but won absolutely nothing, Arsenal has been doing worse than us, Leicester won a championship but on the average they are doing worse. Everyone else is further below.
So, the question is: why did those three clubs do better than us? Well, Liverpool has a better manager. City has a better manager and more money. Chelsea has (had) more money. It's either a manager or a lot of money.
This simplified analysis shows that our main problem is to find a manager who is better than those three. It is easy to say that, but it is really hard to find someone better than both Pep and Klopp.
The problem with Fergie is he had became outdated and perhaps too sentimental after retirement.
Only an outdated footballing person will think Ole is a good hire as a manager of a club experienced to win titles. An appointment like Ole and Moyes might be able to get away with it if it was still the 90s when coaching levels aren't as high, and United faced less challenges in terms of squad quality, but that will never work in the 2010s and 2020s.
Nostalgia has blinded Fergie as much as it did for the fans.
I’d agree with that. Whilst I think Poch could do well here, it would certainly feel like the club are doing the same old same old, and who knows, that may finally lead to a successful appointment.
If they however appoint Ten Hag, which is no guarantee either, that does at least signal a clear intention to do it differently this time. We’ve tried to replicate Fergie, we’ve tried big name managers, this would be trying something completely different I feel.
We’re not really declining actually. Since Fergie left we’ve been a steady top 6 side and occasionally done a bit better, but never challenged.
Imagine if instead of Woodwadd we appointed Edwin? Woodward thought United were about to become the new Real Madrid and he couldnt be more wrong.
It wouldn't have been accepted by whom? Fans and media who have no say in the running of the club whatsoever or by Glazers themselves? Glazers have no problem making decisions that fans and media hate, but one time where it would be useful for the club how did they have their hands tied?
Then they shouldn't have listened to them, obviously. They can take advice from whoever they want, but if it's wrong advice or executed poorly they are responsible for it, not two employees that were leaving the club and didn't leave it on a perfect auto-pilot just so poor owners don't have to even lift a finger. If the owners are not even responsible for choosing good people to delegate responsibilities to then what are they responsible for? Is there any positive value from their presence around the club or are they basically leeches stuck to the club so it doesn't have it too easy and doesn't become too dominant?
While I agree with this in general, I don’t remember there being any confirmed competition for those particular players. Not to say that there wasn’t interest, reading the rumors at the time you felt that only United was serious. Ronaldo to City might be the only rumor with potential substance.
When it comes to real tussles for players you have generally lost out. I can’t think of a player in your squad where he has had a choice of United or “X” and picked you guys.
My sentence was perhaps misleading and confusing, I meant still competing for signings against the top clubs in general over the last few years. Ronaldo could have joined city, same as Sanchez going back further, Lukaku could have rejoined Chelsea straight from Everton etc.
And I take your point about no serious interest reported at the time, but had in a different reality United decided to sign nobody last summer to fund a stadium build or whatever, then i'm sure Sancho would have moved to one of the top 3. Same perhaps for Varane, or to PSG.
United are still generally dining from the top table with regards to signing the top level of players in spite of it being awful when the actual football starts. Which baffles me. If it was a case of the club just being tight and signing Michael Keane instead of Varane or Sarr instead of Sancho, then I could understand it of course.
Accepted by the greatest manager in the histor
I think it’d have been daft not to listen to a guy who brought the club and the Glazers unparalleled success, but yeah sure.
Obviously they are ultimately responsible, but I can understand why they made many of the decisions they did.
This time though I do think it feels very different, so we’ll see.
Is there any reason to believe that Ferguson did give some sort of an ultimatum about Moyes? I thought that he was asked for advice, put effort into it and recommended him, not that he threatened Glazers with something if Moyes wasn't appointed.
There's a massive difference between listening to a guy and blindly implementing his first advice despite all the problems with it and his lack of experience in similar decisions. Glazers should have absolutely done their own work there regardless of Ferguson's recommendation.
There are reasons to feel optimistic about the recent changes. With Woodward gone Arnold seems to be at least aware that on pitch performance matter for the club and Murtough and Rangnick were hired here because of their football expertise, not purely through nepotism. But the current situation was never inevitable and club's mismanagement by Glazers and Woodward is absolutely the key reason it happened.
Eh?
I think you need to re-read what I said wouldn’t have been accepted, cause it had feck all to do with Moyes.
Middle management. Everyone blames the Galziers and I agree they have a lot to answer for but they gave a billion pounds in transfer fees to middle management and they have run the club into the ground. By middle management I mean all those involved between the manager and the glaziers. The scouts, the board all of them. Im not sure who they all are. But everyone who is deciding on our next manager, the vision, the players to buy etc. Those boys fkd up. Useless. The lot of them.
Its simple. Its Woodward. He alone appointed managers, signed off and in some cases initiated big transfers, ignored the need for a DoF and football decision making process of clear football philosophy. I am sure below Woodward there were some capable people, but its noone else's fault. Woodward hired over the hill, toxic or simply unqualifed managers, often allowed them to sign whoever they wanted with no thought of the long term, and allowed mediocrity to flourish throughout the club.
I have never quite worked out why the Glazers backed Ed when he so clearly inept. Bottom line is they just dont care. The kept gettign their fees, dividends and share price increases. Nothing else mattered.
The simple answer is that SAF was one of a kind that could do multiple jobs at the WC level. We thought that other managers could do the same, we were wrong. Everyone, including fans, underestimated how good SAF was at running the club. His job needed 3 or 4 people to do but he did it alone. It created a false sense that we could replicate that with another manager. We could not even though we tried with PL proven Moyes, big names like LVG and Mourinho.
SAF was one of a kind and IMO the club failed to understand that. He needed to be replaced not by a man but by a team.
Was it though? Thats what I would like to know. Everyone seems to think he worked like some kind of dictator. Just isolated in an office somewhere coming up with bullsht schemes. Im not sure thats true. Rio Ferdinand said that you would be surprised how much he is involved in the actual football decisions. i.e. he is not. So who is it? I presume there is a group of them all getting together and deciding. Probably yes Woodward as well but a group of other top people. The board? Who is it? Because whoever they are, they are fking useless.
The Manchester United limited board have been the decision makers. The likes of SAF, Gill, Sir Bobby, Michael Edelson who sit on the football board have no doubt had input at times but they have no actual power and don't make decisions.
Engame, set and match
My bad, those two topics merged in my head after first post. Although question stays very similar, why would Fergie not accept people implementing changes that would take place after his retirement?
I don't understand threads like this.
Football is a highly competitive business, and the teams we're against currently have superb management, also invest huge amounts of money, or both.
Football is cyclical, and after a huge up spell, we were bound to have a down.
Right manager and right players, coinciding with a few other teams having their dip, and it all changes again.
Football is a highly competitive business, and the teams we're against currently have superb management, also invest huge amounts of money, or both.
Football is cyclical, and after a huge up spell, we were bound to have a down.
Right manager and right players, coinciding with a few other teams having their dip, and it all changes again.
I think he'd have accepted that just fine.
I still think, as I posted, that we'd have been much better off if we'd employed a Ragnick as DoF whilst SAF was still managing to see through the changeover and help get the squad ready for the new manager, but as I said, SAF would never have accepted that.
Its simply the hierarchy, structure and culture are a mess. For years fans have said it's the lack of spending by the Glazers, but we have a net spend of around 1.3 Billion over the last decade, there is a real possibility that this is the highest net spend by a football club over that time period in history. We also have one of the highest wage bills in world football.
So its not money, which leaves only how the money has been spent, and the people running the club ensure sure the right individuals are making decisions regarding the football side of the business. Which the clearly aren't and clearly haven't been in a very long time.
So its not money, which leaves only how the money has been spent, and the people running the club ensure sure the right individuals are making decisions regarding the football side of the business. Which the clearly aren't and clearly haven't been in a very long time.
Rogue opinion here -- that middle management you speak of wants to rule the roost. They could work with the Glazers for the club's benefit, but they'd rather not. So 'green & gold' comes up when convenient, they have a cushy no pressure job as a result and live in fat city.
Also, it's a retirement home for the good old boys. (what is Fletcher's job?)
Yeah agree. To be honest it’s surprising to me that Ole did as well as he did. We were comfortably knocked out of Europe though despite having a better players than almost nearly everyone we played
Is anyone else really disappointed football is back this weekend?
I used to hate the international break but we are serving up insipid performance after insipid performance, with low hopes of top 4 and have exited every cup.
On top of this, we are bombarded with Liverpool game after Liverpool game as they remain in every single Cup, having already won one, marching on seeming uncgallenged towards the absolutely sickening prospect of them winning a quadruple, which will in the process eclipse our treble
Fecking sick of us sliding further into mediocrity with our mostly dislikable bunch of uncaring over paid players barely trying, while every single one of Liverpool's players looks functional and fitting the system. I don't see this changing next season.
The sight of our captain, when compared to our previous captains, who were actually befitting of captaining us, makes me weep.
Once our seemingly only ambition, the top 4 trophy, becomes impossible, at least play the kids so we can get a proper look at them and see where they are and if any look close to being integrated gradually into the team. I'd really rather not see most of the current bunch strolling round with nothing to aim for, despite being paid ridiculous amounts of money.
I'm most disappointed the F1 isn't on this weekend, it's a great tonic to potentially the worst possible football season I can remember. Let's not forget it could end with a Liverpool vs City CL final.
A club who showed ambition would have waited until the end Oles caretaker stint, as planned, before making a decision on him. Had they done this, they would have seen the results unravel and presume thanked him and sent him on his way.
A club who showed ambition would have sacked him after that pathetic Europa final showing. Instead he gets a new contract!
A Club who showed ambition would have sacked him after the absolute embarrassment by our bitter rivals, at OT nonetheless. Off the back of a list of poor results. Instead we continue to persist and only finally act once his position is completely and utterly untenable
The whole situation is a mess that I don't see ending anytime soon. I'd love to rip out the entire structure at the club, both non playing and playing (bar a few players) and start from scratch, with a proper, modern structure equivalent to that of a club that is actually well run and ambitious. Liverpool spent years in the wilderness, then got ambitious owners, a proper structure including a wage structure, and a great manager. Look what happened. They could sickeningly win the quadruple. All while we try our best to get our coveted top 4 prize....
I used to hate the international break but we are serving up insipid performance after insipid performance, with low hopes of top 4 and have exited every cup.
On top of this, we are bombarded with Liverpool game after Liverpool game as they remain in every single Cup, having already won one, marching on seeming uncgallenged towards the absolutely sickening prospect of them winning a quadruple, which will in the process eclipse our treble
Fecking sick of us sliding further into mediocrity with our mostly dislikable bunch of uncaring over paid players barely trying, while every single one of Liverpool's players looks functional and fitting the system. I don't see this changing next season.
The sight of our captain, when compared to our previous captains, who were actually befitting of captaining us, makes me weep.
Once our seemingly only ambition, the top 4 trophy, becomes impossible, at least play the kids so we can get a proper look at them and see where they are and if any look close to being integrated gradually into the team. I'd really rather not see most of the current bunch strolling round with nothing to aim for, despite being paid ridiculous amounts of money.
I'm most disappointed the F1 isn't on this weekend, it's a great tonic to potentially the worst possible football season I can remember. Let's not forget it could end with a Liverpool vs City CL final.
A club who showed ambition would have waited until the end Oles caretaker stint, as planned, before making a decision on him. Had they done this, they would have seen the results unravel and presume thanked him and sent him on his way.
A club who showed ambition would have sacked him after that pathetic Europa final showing. Instead he gets a new contract!
A Club who showed ambition would have sacked him after the absolute embarrassment by our bitter rivals, at OT nonetheless. Off the back of a list of poor results. Instead we continue to persist and only finally act once his position is completely and utterly untenable
The whole situation is a mess that I don't see ending anytime soon. I'd love to rip out the entire structure at the club, both non playing and playing (bar a few players) and start from scratch, with a proper, modern structure equivalent to that of a club that is actually well run and ambitious. Liverpool spent years in the wilderness, then got ambitious owners, a proper structure including a wage structure, and a great manager. Look what happened. They could sickeningly win the quadruple. All while we try our best to get our coveted top 4 prize....