They are. Especially Overmars. But, they are up against a unit which is defending deep and has cover in front of it thereby making it congested in the middle. Now, Overmars was a very good winger and was a lethal weapon on counters but he wasn't really someone who was known for his close control in tight spaces like lets say a Robben or Hagi or Figo or Ronaldinho etc. Figo though yes, would be tricky when he drifts in and that is where Bastian has to support Sergi to ensure Figo doesn't get a free run.
The Reality Draft - QF: Jayvin vs The Red Viper
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
They are. Especially Overmars. But, they are up against a unit which is defending deep and has cover in front of it thereby making it congested in the middle. Now, Overmars was a very good winger and was a lethal weapon on counters but he wasn't really someone who was known for his close control in tight spaces like lets say a Robben or Hagi or Figo or Ronaldinho etc. Figo though yes, would be tricky when he drifts in and that is where Bastian has to support Sergi to ensure Figo doesn't get a free run.
Where have I denied about Romario's tremendous burst of pace, mate? But that video can't really be a conclusion on everything. If I were to point out the issues in it, the first is, Vidic has much better positional sense and tackling ability than Silvestre just like you said Romario was much better than Edmundo and secondly, the goalkeeper was Bosnich. Here it would be Kahn was had a huge frame and was known for making himself big during one on one situation to reduce the angle for the shot. Anyway, my point was simple. I can accept had you said Romario would trouble them but saying they would be completely fecked is OTT.
Anyway, like you posted the video, there are plenty of evidences where a team defending deep with two not so quick centre backs have done well against strikers with great burst of pace. Chelsea are the first team that come to my mind. In that 2008-09 season in UCL Semi Final, where Iniesta won it for Barcelona with a worldie in the end, Chelsea had restricted Barca from scoring for almost 180 mins. And, Chelsea's centre backs in those two games were Alex and Terry, both of whom are slow on the turn. Yet they ensured that Messi, whose burst of pace is as good as Romario but he posseses even better close control had a tough time finding those pockets of spaces in the box. Now, once again, I would repeat that, I am not saying that would happen exactly with Romario but it ain't a car crash as well.
But is, territorial advantage the be all and end all?
Plenty of teams have shown you don't need to dominate possession to win the match.
Where have I denied about Romario's tremendous burst of pace, mate? But that video can't really be a conclusion on everything. If I were to point out the issues in it, the first is, Vidic has much better positional sense and tackling ability than Silvestre just like you said Romario was much better than Edmundo and secondly, the goalkeeper was Bosnich. Here it would be Kahn was had a huge frame and was known for making himself big during one on one situation to reduce the angle for the shot. Anyway, my point was simple. I can accept had you said Romario would trouble them but saying they would be completely fecked is OTT.
Anyway, like you posted the video, there are plenty of evidences where a team defending deep with two not so quick centre backs have done well against strikers with great burst of pace. Chelsea are the first team that come to my mind. In that 2008-09 season in UCL Semi Final, where Iniesta won it for Barcelona with a worldie in the end, Chelsea had restricted Barca from scoring for almost 180 mins. And, Chelsea's centre backs in those two games were Alex and Terry, both of whom are slow on the turn. Yet they ensured that Messi, whose burst of pace is as good as Romario but he posseses even better close control had a tough time finding those pockets of spaces in the box. Now, once again, I would repeat that, I am not saying that would happen exactly with Romario but it ain't a car crash as well.
That Chelsea team was playing with Essien, Mikel, Ballack and Lampard, arguably better defensive fullbacks too. Not to mention my side is completely different from Barca, I won't be playing tiki-taka and attempting to dominate possession so I don't really think there's much of a comparison there. Also you need your fullbacks to get forward sometimes, particularly Sergi, so sitting deep isn't going to negate my attack completely.
What sealed the deal for me was the fact that Henry-Eto'o-Robben all played under Guardiola who is extremely good at getting his front three to do a huge load of the defensive work for him - and create their own chances through winning the ball back up higher - or forcing errors which Scholes/Schweinsteiger can intercept.
Dunga is a very intelligent defensive midfielder with a fair range of passing and he'd really suit in a pressing defense as would Scholes who was a lot worse when he had to tackle instead. After the first glance of the Viper I thought his team looked extremely boring, but efficient - but having two box to box midfielders like Schweinsteiger and Scholes who both can take the more defensive role - use their range of passing to find the front trio - or push up.
Can't think of many better options next to Scholes. Schweinsteiger is one of the few who could actually keep up when Scholes switches tempo of the ball in all ranges.
Dunga is a very intelligent defensive midfielder with a fair range of passing and he'd really suit in a pressing defense as would Scholes who was a lot worse when he had to tackle instead. After the first glance of the Viper I thought his team looked extremely boring, but efficient - but having two box to box midfielders like Schweinsteiger and Scholes who both can take the more defensive role - use their range of passing to find the front trio - or push up.
Can't think of many better options next to Scholes. Schweinsteiger is one of the few who could actually keep up when Scholes switches tempo of the ball in all ranges.
Why does he need to be good in tight spaces? As you say he is a lethal threat on the counter, which is how I will use him. You say it will be congested in the middle, so logically there will be some space out wide where I have two fantastic wingers capable of hugging the touchline and the passing skills of Alonso and Blanc to pick them out. You've already stated Schweinsteiger will be covering for Sergi, and I assume Dunga would have to do the same for Sagnol sometimes, If your two most defensive minded midfield players are constantly having to cover the flanks as well as trying to keep it tight in the middle, then at some point they are going to be caught out of position. I don't have that problem on my side because my fullbacks are more defensively sound, I'm not relying on them in an attacking sense whatsoever and my wingers are more likely to track back, meaning Deschamps can focus his energy on breaking up play in the middle.
TRVs team isn't playing like a Guardiola team though, he said he's sitting deep and looking to hit me on the break, like Chelsea in 2009.
Good point, changed vote as he hasn't mentioned it as far as I can see at all.
Jayvin (15)
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Gio
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It's tied. What a match!!!
Squeeky bum time for both managers!
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Gio
sajeev
Thisistheone
Edgar Allan Pillow
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antohan
crappycraperson
BorisDeLeFora
Raees
Annahnomoss
The Red Viper (15)
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Wittmann45
Decotron
Cutch
manikandan nair
bucky
Kazi
DesiBD
PedroMendez
Invictus
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VivaJanuzaj
harms
Joga Bonito
It's tied. What a match!!!
Squeeky bum time for both managers!
And Skizzo votes to give Jayvin the lead for the first time in the game!
Errrm, My point had nothing to with styles etc. I simply wanted to point out that two CBs who aren't that quick on the turn can form a very formidable central defence pairing against an attack which is rapid. It was just an example to show that Vidic - Stam can work well and it won't be a disaster or anything.
Wait. I didn't get this. So, correct me if I am wrong. You thought I was playing like Pep's team and thats why you had voted for me initially and now you changed it?
I don't see the relevance though, Chelsea had 3 'defensive' midfield players and Ivanovic at right back against a Barca side who's only genuine width came from the fullbacks. It's completely different to what we have here. Stam and Vidic won't have the same protection as Alex and Terry did because your midfielders will find themselves covering for your fullbacks a lot more than Mikel and Essien had to for Chelsea.
Nowhere, very much the opposite, which is why I mentioned you had got the point I was trying to make anyway.
The video isn't meant as conclusion to anything, it doesn't even involve any of the players here. I was just saying seeing that matchup reminded me of that, it's just a memorable goal that had Romario written all over it yet wasn't scored by Romario.
Mmm... I'll take Gio's more elegant point: facing Romario means Stam's and Vidic's considerable strengths become rather irrelevant, and their weaknesses are exposed. To me that means they are fecked, if you think it's OTT fair enough.
Anyway, like you posted the video, there are plenty of evidences where a team defending deep with two not so quick centre backs have done well against strikers with great burst of pace. Chelsea are the first team that come to my mind. In that 2008-09 season in UCL Semi Final, where Iniesta won it for Barcelona with a worldie in the end, Chelsea had restricted Barca from scoring for almost 180 mins. And, Chelsea's centre backs in those two games were Alex and Terry, both of whom are slow on the turn. Yet they ensured that Messi, whose burst of pace is as good as Romario but he posseses even better close control had a tough time finding those pockets of spaces in the box. Now, once again, I would repeat that, I am not saying that would happen exactly with Romario but it ain't a car crash as well.
Messi goes about things in a very different way to Romario. Romario mastered playing off the shoulder, and coming short only to drag the marker, create space behind him and immediately exploit it. In any case, you aren't playing Barca here, nor do I think you resemble that Chelsea side at all. Defending deep and not being lured forward is the best way to handle Romario, the issue is the implications of that for your setup, your front three look completely stranded and Jayvin gets tonnes of space to operate in.[/quote]
No, its definitely not the be all and end all. You've still got ample pace and quality to threaten him on the counter-attack. He does have a nucleus of players in Figo, Boban and Romario who could capitalise on any sustained periods of possession they have though. They were all good/great at unlocking defences even without much space.
I'm still struggling to decide here. Two really nice teams and intelligent arguments from both managers.
Yeah but the question than being asked is if I voted early to notify a manager that I don't like his tactical approach, than he changes it and I think that with the new tactical approach he will win, shouldn't I change my vote for him?
Jayvin (19)
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Chesterlestreet
I'm still thinking about changing my vote here. Not sure, maybe I'll just cancel my vote because I really can't decide as its incredibly close imo.
Gio
Sajeev
TITO
Hojoon
EAP
antohan
crappy
Annah
Skizzo
Jayvin
Boris
Raees
The Red Viper(22)
Wittmann45
Decotron
Cutch
ha_rooney
manikandan nair
bucky
Isotope
Neo
Kazi
DesiBD
PedroMendez
Invictus
VivaJ
The Red Viper
harms
Joga Bonito
Chesterlestreet
I'm still thinking about changing my vote here. Not sure, maybe I'll just cancel my vote because I really can't decide as its incredibly close imo.
I think TRV,work rate in the middle of the park and the attacking front three win's it for him.
For my money you certainly should - I think Ed is on to something when he pushes this point: This could add a new kind of dynamics to these match threads. If people get into the habit of voting early for the team which, sort of, seems a notch stronger - and then come back, read the comments/arguments/retorts and so forth, and change their vote after having been convinced by the logic of the manager...then excellent, it adds more "realism" to the match in one sense, namely in the sense that you actually have a chance to make a comeback by virtue of your own efforts. I like it very much as a concept.
Few final thoughts on the match:
-Higher work rate on the flanks and fullbacks who can focus on defending means Deschamps can focus on stopping danger in the middle.
-Henry and Robben both want to cut inside, making TRVs attack fairly narrow at times - he will need his fullbacks to provide width, which means...
-...TRVs midfielders will need to cover the flanks regularly, sooner or later they will be caught out of position on the counter and his defence will be exposed.
TRV has a good side, but it just so happens that a couple of his weaknesses correspond with my teams strengths. He will be restricting the likes of Schweinsteiger with defensive covering jobs, attepmting to stifle my attacking threats, while my side will play their natural game. I don't have to ask my midfielders to help double up on players, I don't require my fullbacks to get forward, everyone has one job and it is invariably what they are best at (bar maybe Gallas, although he's actually quite a good fit at RB against Henry cutting inside).
-Higher work rate on the flanks and fullbacks who can focus on defending means Deschamps can focus on stopping danger in the middle.
-Henry and Robben both want to cut inside, making TRVs attack fairly narrow at times - he will need his fullbacks to provide width, which means...
-...TRVs midfielders will need to cover the flanks regularly, sooner or later they will be caught out of position on the counter and his defence will be exposed.
TRV has a good side, but it just so happens that a couple of his weaknesses correspond with my teams strengths. He will be restricting the likes of Schweinsteiger with defensive covering jobs, attepmting to stifle my attacking threats, while my side will play their natural game. I don't have to ask my midfielders to help double up on players, I don't require my fullbacks to get forward, everyone has one job and it is invariably what they are best at (bar maybe Gallas, although he's actually quite a good fit at RB against Henry cutting inside).
I agree with anto's take on Vidic/Stam versus Romario - but I don't agree that his edge over 'em will be THAT significant. It almost sounds as though Viper's whole team have to be on their toes at all times, dedicated to stopping one man - who was admittedly one of the most dangerous strikers of all time, but still. Taking care of Romario to a reasonable (not a total - that is unrealistic but it's also not necessary) extent won't leave the front trio isolated to the detriment of the general team effort. Scholes and Schweinsteiger won't spend all their time tracking back because of this Romario conundrum - that simply won't happen.
I feel my defence would cope better with his attack than his would with mine. His fullbacks will be needed more in an attacking sense and his central defence is vulnerable to the explosiveness of Romario; while on my side the fullbacks can focus on defending, with Gallas almost as a 3rd centreback when Henry cuts inside. Desailly was a physical beast and is more than a match for Eto'o, and as I stated earlier Deschamps doesn't need to cover out wide and can concentrate on shielding the centrebacks and tracking the forward runs of Scholes.
These are fair points - but Viper states clearly that his main strategy will be to counter. Now, if you get the first goal here - then he certainly needs to push up sooner or later, with more offensive commitment from his fullbacks, and THEN your point certainly has merit. But initially he doesn't have to do this - he intends to let you have a decent amount of possession and to sit deep. When he counters, he can do so by - say - having Dunga win back the ball, pass it neatly to Scholes who then finds one of three extremely fast and tricky runners up front. A constant outlet out wide provided by the fullbacks isn't necessary for this strategy to work.
It's not just Romario his team need to worry about. TRV has already stated that Schweinsteiger will be helping Sergi double up on Figo, and you would imagine Dunga would be tasked with the same thing on the right side given Robben - like Henry - will look to cut inside and force Sagnol to provide width on occasion.
Add to that the deep defensive line that TRV has implemented specifically to counter the threat of Romario and you see that he has gone to great lengths to try and counter the advantages my team has, and IMO it's still not clear that it would work. My team don't have to adapt, they play their natural games, everyone in their favoured position with one job to focus on.
I would say that both attack are capable scoring against other's defense,Romario cannot be stopped from scoring here so does Henry&Eto, I think Eto has been underrated here. Desailly is physical beast,solid defender,any manager would love to have in his team.I'm not a fan of gallas.
But imagine at the work rate and passing from the middle, i think he got edge over you.
Yes - but it is a counter attacking strategy: The question should be, then, whether his selection of players are suited to that sort of tactics: Having Schweinsteiger and Dunga sitting deep - and even doubling up on a dangerous attacker - isn't a problem in itself if the team are able to hit back effectively on the counter when they retrieve possession. And for my money these players ARE suited for this - they're hard workers and good-to-excellent passers (the midfield) and lighting quick with excellent movement and finishing abilities (the trio up front).
I don't really see a problem here. Sagnol was an excellent defensive fullback, I don't think he will get caught out too often. I'd actually argue that you have more of a problem on that side, with Overmars cutting in as much as Robben and Lizarazu being the more adventurous fullback in comparison to Sagnol. Or do you really want to limit Lizarazu to a solely defensive role because of Robben? Not sure Overmars will have any impact at all then in this game.
I don't think it's clear cut, Deschamps will run himself into the ground and Boban will work just as hard as Scholes. Schweinsteiger certainly has the edge over Alonso in terms of work rate, but then again the Spaniard won't be spending his time doubling up on a winger.
It's stalemate in midfield for me. I can see the game being won and lost elsewhere on the park.
I'd argue Overmars will provide more defensive support to his fullback than Robben would. Also Lizarazu wouldn't be performing a solely defensive role, he just wouldn't need to take risks going forward as much as TRVs fullbacks. I am curious though why you think if Liza was instructed to stay back and defend it would render Overmars useless? Chester seems to believe TRVs team can win the ball back through Dunga, pass it neatly to Scholes and then find Henry on the flank all while his fullbacks sit deep and concentrate on defending. Why wouldn't this work for my side? Deschamps wins the ball, passes to Alonso who finds Overmars/Figo on the flanks...
@Edgar Allan Pillow Still waiting for your decision. If you approve it I'll probably(unless I'll have another change of hearts) decide to cancel my vote all together, as things stand atm I just don't think I can choose between the two sides, Even Steven.
No no, just that you have a front three who are all comfortable in a high pressing system which is something you should have used. Of course one that starts when they enter your own half, but still those three could have done a massive job defensively from the front.
At end of match your vote would be on whoever you think would win. No restrictions on changing.
Well, yes. I trust Overmars to track Sagnol and I trust Sagnol to defend disciplined against Overmars, I rate Sagnol a lot. Don't think you can gain an advantage down that wing unless Lizarazu moves forward and overlaps, which then can cause problems because Robben while significantly improved in recent years still won't track Lizarazu as disciplined as necessary. That's the whole dilemma here down the wing. I can see Sagnol and Overmars nullifying each other and I can see Lizarazu and Robben exploiting each other, so how your team covers for Lizarazu's runs is more important in my opinion, which is why I don't understand why you constantly mention that Dunga needs to cover for Sagnol. I don't see that myself at all, I could see Dunga picking up Overmars when he cuts inside and Sagnol defending against Lizarazu though, if the latter is allowed to attack.
I also believe that Robben is more likely to create something on his own without help from his fullback than Overmars is, which again leads to the problem above.
Anyway, I gave you my vote. It's really close and the Romario vs Stam/Vidic thing made the difference for me. Feel a bit sick to vote against Schweinsteiger though
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of course you would
He deserves it though, brilliant fullback and a bit unlucky that he had to wait until Thuram moved to centerback before he could finally start regularly for the nationalteam.of course you would
I think it really is a missed trick to have Henry-Etoo-Robben who all excelled defensively in a pressing defense and not use it in your advantage. Thought the Viper was a clear winner had he pushed that button.
of course he does. just messing with you
Don't think he can play a high line with those two centerbacks and all three also excelled in counterattacking sides without pressing, so I don't see it as a problem at all. He could have used them to put pressure on Alonso for example, so that he can't control the game from deep, but the way the midfields are set up, it's not necessary either.
Fair point, I was probably guilty of underrating Sagnol a bit. I guess Deschamps will have to do a bit of covering out wide after all. Overall I still think my defence would deal with his attack better than his would deal with mine, I'm not a fan of Gallas but his skills as a centreback, his strength and his pace are great assets to have when dealing with something like Henry. Desailly has the physical presence and speed to deal with Eto'o and Blanc's reading of the game and ability to play out from the back round out the defence nicely.