The quality of strikers today vs late 90s / early 2000s

[giorno]

They were both central players though, they played the traditional striker role. They dropped deep to bring the ball forward. CR7 and Messi start deep/wide and then move up.

...how is that any different? They're still goalscorers, they're still finishing centrally, they're still playing wherever they want across the pitch...

Ronaldo only became less involved in build ups because he is now all about the individual awards, and he no longer has a bigger figure in the club telling him to work elsewhere.

No, it's because he's 32 and he's lost the physical attributes that allowed him to do that in the first place

 

[Adnandos]

You guys are doing that thing where you act like all the players were at their peak at the same time. There is a lot of quality strikers right now. We are not lacking in that department at all in the current Football landscape.

This so much. We wouldn't mention players like Martial and Dembele being the best of the current France squad but if we jump 20 years into the future their legacy might be incredible and we'd include them in these lists even though they're not currently top level. These lists always include all the players that happened to be good throughout their careers not all at the same time ffs.

Its also like including Drogba as one of the top strikers around now because he was good once.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

This so much. We wouldn't mention players like Martial and Dembele being the best of the current France squad but if we jump 20 years into the future their legacy might be incredible and we'd include them in these lists even though they're not currently top level. These lists always include all the players that happened to be good throughout their careers not all at the same time ffs.

Its also like including Drogba as one of the top strikers around now because he was good once.

And for guys like Yorke and Cole in discussions like this people only remember them for the Treble season and the season after and it makes it seem like they were on that level their entire careers. Like thinking about Rooney in 20 years and only remembering how good he was in 09-10 and 11-12.

 

[do.ob]

"Defenders are shit these days" is pretty much the most silly football cliche of our time. We can believe that
a) the way teams attack and defend has changed - in particular teams transitioning much quicker and top teams exposing their defenders much more to 1on1s by positioning themselves extremely high up their pitch and tasking their FBs with winger-like roles
or
b) it's a mixture of everyone being able to watch every match which exposes mistakes way more to the masses and selective memory when it comes to past players
or
c) somehow entire generations of players have regressed and are collectively too stupid to do the easiest task in football

 

[11101]

...how is that any different? They're still goalscorers, they're still finishing centrally, they're still playing wherever they want across the pitch...

I think you answered your own question there.

No, it's because he's 32 and he's lost the physical attributes that allowed him to do that in the first place

Either way, he spent the early to middle part of his career involving himself in the build up play. It's only recently he's become an out and out scorer.

 

[golden_blunder]

All I know is that most (not all) attacking players nowadays don't get me on the edge of my seat with anxiety when they are playing whereas many of the past era would have. I feel that the excitement has been coached out of them in many cases

 

[giorno]

I think you answered your own question there.

What? Del Piero and Ronaldo played wherever they wanted, Cristiano and Messi play wherever they want. How is that any different? They all play the same roles, just because one guy happens to prefer to play mostly through a certain area of the pitch doesn't make them different

Either way, he spent the early to middle part of his career involving himself in the build up play. It's only recently he's become an out and out scorer.

No, he's been an out and out scorer since the 2007/08 season. The only difference is before he could play over 50-60 meters, whereas now he can play in 20-25

 

[giorno]

"Defenders are shit these days" is pretty much the most silly football cliche of our time. We can believe that
a) the way teams attack and defend has changed - in particular teams transitioning much quicker and top teams exposing their defenders much more to 1on1s by positioning themselves extremely high up their pitch and tasking their FBs with winger-like roles
or
b) it's a mixture of everyone being able to watch every match which exposes mistakes way more to the masses and selective memory when it comes to past players
or
c) somehow entire generations of players have regressed and are collectively too stupid to do the easiest task in football

A) has been happening for two decades now
B) little bit, yes
C) --->
D) what makes a good defender in 2017 is different from what made a good defender in 1997. Bonucci is considered one of the best defenders in the world, even though defensively he's about average.

The one biggest difference is that back then, the most important quality in a CB was man-marking. Now, it's become an afterthought, to the point of being effectively a lost art. Because most teams, especially big teams, don't care about it. Godin is still seen as one of the best CBs in the world because he's one of the 3-4 CBs who still know how to mark their man and are very good at it. But he could only ever work for Atletico, who are about the only big team in the world who still require their CBs play like it's 1997

 

[Ecstatic]

The best players used to play in Spain but mainly in Italy: the 3-5-2 & 4-4-2 tactical systems were preponderant.

Today, the dominant tactical system is the famous 4-1-2-3, which requires different skills.

The issue is more quantitative: the number of good/top strikers is much lower nowadays.

Suffice to look at the case of Italy


Before

Vieiri
Inzaghi
Baggio (support striker scenario)
Totti
Del Piero
Vialli
Ravanelli
Simone
Luca Toni
gilardino
montella
chiesa
zola
signori

Now: who do we have?

France aside, the issue is a European one: you can also compare the Dutch strikers...

 

[salford_]

These are the main relevant strikers in football today in no particular order:

Suarez, Lewandowski, Aguero, Morata, Benzema, Higuain, Lukaku, Cavani, Lacazette, Kane, Diego Costa, Belotti, Chicharito, Aubameyang, Bakambu, Batshuayi, Dzeko, Ben Yedder, Vietto, Welbeck, G. Jesus, Werner, Iheanacho, Vardy, Icardi, Alcacer, Mandzukic, Jovetic, Milik, Falcao, Dybala, Griezmann, Mbappe


Compare it to the late 90s and early 2000s where you had (feel free to mention the ones I missed):

Henry, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer, Yorke, Cole, Del Piero, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Raul, Shevchenko, Trezeguet, H. Larsson, Solskjear, Owen, Crespo, Kluivert, Vieri, Morientes, Pauleta, Makaay, Inzaghi, Tristan, Hasselbaink, Viduka, Elber, Rivaldo

To be honest, for a while I felt that we had a real lack of quality strikers today but when you look at the lists, it's actually not bad at all IMO.

Zamorano, Signori, Salas, Bierhoff, Recoba who could have been much better, Adriano, I used to like Sonny anderson too

 

[do.ob]

The best players used to play in Spain but mainly in Italy: the 3-5-2 & 4-4-2 tactical systems were preponderant.

Today, the dominant tactical system is the famous 4-1-2-3, which requires different skills.

The issue is more quantitative: the number of good/top strikers is much lower nowadays.

Suffice to look at the case of Italy


Before

Vieiri
Inzaghi
Baggio (support striker scenario)
Totti
Del Piero
Vialli
Ravanelli
Simone
Luca Toni
gilardino
montella
chiesa
zola
signori

Now: who do we have?

France aside, the issue is a European one: you can also compare the Dutch strikers...

From the rise of Baggio (85?!) to the end of Luca Toni's time at the top (2010) it's like 25 years, plus Italy/Serie A as a whole sharply declined in general and it's still only one country. Might as well look at Argentina and France who have good strikers in abundance.

 

[do.ob]

The one biggest difference is that back then, the most important quality in a CB was man-marking. Now, it's become an afterthought, to the point of being effectively a lost art. Because most teams, especially big teams, don't care about it. Godin is still seen as one of the best CBs in the world because he's one of the 3-4 CBs who still know how to mark their man and are very good at it. But he could only ever work for Atletico, who are about the only big team in the world who still require their CBs play like it's 1997

I think that Godin example highlights the error in a lot of people's thinking. When you say/think that it seems Godin is the only one left good at defending is it likelier that this is because he is playing in the only (aside from Juventus perhaps and not surprisingly their CBs are the other examples people tend to bring up for good CBs) top team that has a defensive approach or is it more likely that there is really only one player who can do what dozens could do 20 years ago?

Where you say man marking has become an afterthought I'd say it's quite the opposite. In a game that has become so risky, pacey and obsessed with leveraging small positional mistakes into opportunities excellent man marking has simply become so deeply rooted that it's nothing special anymore. Players like Pique and Hummel's (slow(ish) players who are happy to take risks) especially wouldn't be in top teams if their reading of the game wasn't top top notch.

 

[giorno]

I think that Godin example highlights the error in a lot of people's thinking. When you say/think that it seems Godin is the only one left good at defending is it likelier that this is because he is playing in the only (aside from Juventus perhaps and not surprisingly their CBs are the other examples people tend to bring up for good CBs) top team that has a defensive approach or is it more likely that there is really only one player who can do what dozens could do 20 years ago?

Where you say man marking has become an afterthought I'd say it's quite the opposite. In a game that has become so risky, pacey and obsessed with leveraging small positional mistakes into opportunities excellent man marking has simply become so deeply rooted that it's nothing special anymore. Players like Pique and Hummel's (slow(ish) players who are happy to take risks) especially wouldn't be in top teams if their reading of the game wasn't top top notch.

Godin is recognized as a top CB because of the way his team(s) play. Barzagli and Chiellini are just good, but again, Bonucci us widely considered the best of them and he's unarguably the worst at the things we normally associate with defending

And no, man-marking really is a lost art. You threw the example of two players who are dire at it

 

[Ecstatic]

From the rise of Baggio (85?!) to the end of Luca Toni's time at the top (2010) it's like 25 years, plus Italy/Serie A as a whole sharply declined in general and it's still only one country. Might as well look at Argentina and France who have good strikers in abundance.

Humm, at a point in time, they were all potential players for the Nazionale.

Baggio played with Ronaldo at Inter in 1998 for instance. Early 2000s, stile great stats with Brescia.

 

[giorno]

Humm, at a point in time, they were all potential players for the Nazionale.

Baggio played with Ronaldo at Inter in 1998 for instance. Early 2000s, stile great stats with Brescia.

He was Roberto Baggio

 

[Ecstatic]

He was Roberto Baggio

I thought he was suggesting Baggio was no no longer a key player in the late 90s

 

[giorno]

I thought he was suggesting Baggio was no no longer a key player in the late 90s

Baggio was still world class when he retired

 

[Ecstatic]

Baggio was still world class when he retired

Sure

What a career when we know he was suffering on the pitch 70% of the time

 

[giorno]

Sure

What a career when we know he was suffering on the pitch 70% of the time

Played his whole career without knee ligaments. Still won a golden ball, dragged us to a WC final and was absolutely incredible everytime he was fit enough to play

 

[2cents]

Baggio was still world class when he retired

In my head he'd still be now. Easily my favourite non-United player.

 

[Skorenzy]

The issue is more quantitative: the number of good/top strikers is much lower nowadays.

Suffice to look at the case of Italy


Before

Vieiri
Inzaghi
Baggio (support striker scenario)
Totti
Del Piero
Vialli
Ravanelli
Simone
Luca Toni
gilardino
montella
chiesa
zola
signori

Now: who do we have?

France aside, the issue is a European one: you can also compare the Dutch strikers...

That argument has an obvious flaw: you've grouped together players from totally different generations under 'before' and pitted that against a vague 'now' which I suppose means the last couple of seasons?

Just to highlight the most extreme example; Baggio made his pro debut in 1983... meanwhile Gilardino was born in '82.

 

[GifLord]

That argument has an obvious flaw: you've grouped together players from totally different generations under 'before' and pitted that against a vague 'now' which I suppose means the last couple of seasons?

Just to highlight the most extreme example; Baggio made his pro debut in 1983... meanwhile Gilardino was born in '82.

Gilardino played in a WC winning squad together with Toni, Del Pierro & Inzaghi. That's why he probably mentions him

 

[Ecstatic]

That argument has an obvious flaw: you've grouped together players from totally different generations under 'before' and pitted that against a vague 'now' which I suppose means the last couple of seasons?

Just to highlight the most extreme example; Baggio made his pro debut in 1983... meanwhile Gilardino was born in '82.

You haven't understood my post....

Italy was qualified to play the WC 1998. Cesare Maldini selected:

18 FW Roberto Baggio 18 February 1967 (aged 31) 48

Bologna
19 FW Filippo Inzaghi 9 August 1973 (aged 24) 4

Juventus
20 FW Enrico Chiesa 29 December 1970 (aged 27) 6

Parma
21 FW Christian Vieri 12 July 1973 (aged 24) 8

Atlético Madrid
10 FW Alessandro Del Piero 9 November 1974 (aged 23) 19

Juventus

Not selected:

Totti was 21 in 1998
Di natale 21
Simone Inzaghi 22
Montella & Lucarelli were 23
Delvechio was 25
Giuessepe Signori + Marco Negri 28
Marco Simone was still a great player: 29
Dario Hubner 31
Ravanelli: 31
Zola: 32
Vialli: 33
Mancini: 34

Youre right to say Gilardino is much younger: 16 in 1998.

"Totally different generations" illustrates a poor understanding of my post unless you think Roberto should have children at the age of 15

 

[giorno]

Dario Hubner 31

Bisonte fantasy football god

 

[Ecstatic]

From the rise of Baggio (85?!) to the end of Luca Toni's time at the top (2010) it's like 25 years, plus Italy/Serie A as a whole sharply declined in general and it's still only one country. Might as well look at Argentina and France who have good strikers in abundance.

Yeah, France has a high number of good offensive players, which isn't the case for most European countries IMO. Also, in theory, Deschamps could select M'bappé (18), Ribéry (34) or Evra (36 now) at the WC 2018.

You're also right to say the Serie A sharply declined, the same applies to the Italian production of good offensive players.

That said, like @Skorenzy , your reasoning is intellectually dishonest: you compare the emerging of a player with the peak of a player just to discredit my post.

Rise of Baggio: 1985
Rise of Toni: 1994 Modena
--------------------------------------> "it's like" 9 years, not 25 years

1998/99: Luca Toni (21 yo) scored 15 goals in 31 games in Serie A
1997/98: Baggio scored 23 goals in 33 games in Serie A

2017: M'bappé 18 & Ribéry 34
1998: Luca Toni 21 & Baggio 31

 

[do.ob]

Yeah, France has a high number of good offensive players, which isn't the case for most European countries IMO

You're right to say the Serie A sharply declined, the same applies to the Italian production of good offensive players.

In theory, Deschamps could select M'bappé (18), Ribéry (34) or Evra (36 now) at the WC 2018.

Like @Skorenzy , your reasoning is intellectually dishonest: you compare the emerging of a player with the peak of a player just to discredit my post.

Rise of Baggio: 1985
Rise of Toni: 1994 Modena
--------------------------------------> "it's like" 9 years, not 25 years

1998/99: Luca Toni scored 15 goals in 31 games in Serie A
1997/98: Baggio scored 23 goals in 33 games in Serie A

Intellectually dishonest. Ah. I. See.

How about in 98/99 Luca Toni was playing for Lodigiani, I don't know which league they were part of, but I'm fairly certain it was neither Serie A or B. Or that he moved to Palermo (Serie B) in 2003? And 15 goals in 31 matches isn't the return of a top striker anyway.

 

[Ecstatic]

Intellectually dishonest. Ah. I. See.

How about in 98/99 Luca Toni was playing for Lodigiani, I don't know which league they were playing in, but I'm fairly certain it was neither Serie A or B. Or that he moved to Palermo (Serie B) in 2003? And 15 goals in 31 matches isn't the return of a top striker anyway.

"Intellectually dishonest" is maybe an inappropriate comment, so sorry for that but I still don't see 25 years between these players.

One is born in 1967 and the other one in 1977.

OK, Luca Toni really emerged in Serie B, discovered the Serie A in 2000 at the age of 23 before joining Brescia & Baggio: they played together between 2001 & 03.

Luca Toni at the same age nowadays could be in the starting 11 of Italy. Pure conjecture, I know

 

[do.ob]

Luca Toni is famous for being a (very) late bloomer. That picture was taken at Brescia, at the very end of Baggio's career and before Luca Toni would even dream of being a quality striker (15 goals in 44 games for them), his next destination were second division club Palermo and only then he really hit off, so that would be 04/05 at the earliest, when he scored 20 in Serie A.

Mind you I'm not an expert on Italian football, but German media made a meal out of it when he signed for Bayern.

 

[Ecstatic]

@do.ob

I understand what you mean.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I hate comparisons with footballers from different decades. Football has changed, the rules have changed, the fitness levels have changed, the technical abilities have changed, the equipment has changed, the playing surfaces have changed. Footballers now will be near enough the pinnacle of fitness even compared to 10 years ago there will have been massive advances.
I would think if you dropped Suarez in to the same time as Pele and Maradona he'd maybe be considered on par with performances or maybe even better.

It's impossible to say but footballers now are like manufactured machines tuned to high high levels. There are people monetering how much sunlight or vitamin D they get at Carrington and they have some sort of tanning bed to improve that if your levels are too low. Not sure that was around in the 60's, 70's 80's or even 90's