the problem with Veron!!!!

gulli_G

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he is a world class player,but our style of play recently has been bad, predictable and definately not world class.

I hate to say this: Veron would do brilliantly with arsenal, where they rely more on instant passes because of the pace of the teams movement.

we are slow upfront and on 1 wing (becks), we just do not counter like we used to.

we need a speed demon with skill, either a Shevchenko or a Ronaldhino, with maybe a Cisse coming a close third choice.

andy cole was not super fast, but was fast enough for our style of counter attacking with yorke holding play it was magic.

RVN and soljkaer are not as fast as andy cole.
 
In a way, Seba reminds me of the 1997/8 Sheringham. As long as the team was more or less full (though Keanoless) and had the pace of Giggsy and Coley around, he'd look good and always have someone to pass the ball wisely to. When Giggsy was injured and Cole got into a big draught, Teddy disappeared as well.

I can't help but wonder how Veron would have looked in an older model of United. I had a view of our 4-1 win over West Ham in January 1999 a couple of nights ago. Outstanding, amazing. The football we play not isn't half as incisive and potent, we don't have the pace or the movement of back then, when he played with Cole and Yorke upfront and Giggs and Blomqvist on the wings (for that match anyhow). I really think Seba would have prospered in such a team.
 
Originally posted by gulli_G:
<strong>he is a world class player,
</strong><hr></blockquote>


In what way?

I'd like to know what Seba provides that other players can't.

Free kicks - Beckham is the king.

Passes - Beckham again is better, and I've seen most players in the side make equally good passes as often as Veron does. Seba's pass accuracy has been quite poor.

Goals - not prolific is he?

I don't mean this to be another Seba bashing post. I really like him and I'd like to see him do well for his own sake as well as ours. But being realistic, I've seen no world-class consistency.
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becks' long passes are good...but not his short ones.. if anything Scholesy is better at the short passing, than both..


and seba has been world class.....but not in the PL...........(mainly for Argentina)
 
Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

and seba has been </strong><hr></blockquote>

That might just about sum it up I'm afraid.

Has he had his day? He doesn't suit the EPL and the WC came and went without any real impact by Seba.

He might have a brilliant game tonight. But until he does it consistently, he's a luxury we can't afford.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

That might just about sum it up I'm afraid.

Has he had his day? He doesn't suit the EPL and the WC came and went without any real impact by Seba.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

dunno. TBH.


but i agree he doesn't suit the PL..

mainly coz he can't tackle... he prefers space in the middle...which our league doesn't provide coz teams here defend higher up...

is it a coincidence that his best performances have come in the CL? i think not.. euro teams defend deep thus giving midfielders or playmakers the space they need. which is one of the main reason why our 5 man midfield performs better in Europe...


In the PL.. teams need two fast wingers and a striker with pace... we haven't got any of them... however, we have a very good side in the CL.
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He's not shit, his style of play is better suited to the European game where players get more time in midfield. Can you honestly say that he isn't classy? His passing and reading of the game is amazing when he has time to express himself. You can't expect him to automatically be sucessful in the Premier League when it doesn't suit his style of play, and I think that this is the reason that we'll never see the best of him at United.
 
Originally posted by redinsyd:
<strong>He's not shit, his style of play is better suited to the European game where players get more time in midfield. Can you honestly say that he isn't classy? His passing and reading of the game is amazing when he has time to express himself. You can't expect him to automatically be sucessful in the Premier League when it doesn't suit his style of play, and I think that this is the reason that we'll never see the best of him at United.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Hmmm. sounds like something you read in the paper every week from his press sec.

He is gifted with talent, undoubtably.

But he is a bit of a lazy bastard who cannot run OR tackle to save his life.

He's not a bad player, I like him.

Just an expensive luxury we could have done without.
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Originally posted by redinsyd:
<strong> You can't expect him to automatically be sucessful in the Premier League when it doesn't suit his style of play, </strong><hr></blockquote>


Automatically?????

What you're really saying then is that you agree he's no good for United.
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Originally posted by redinsyd:
<strong>What did I tell you???

Top goal Seba!

:p </strong><hr></blockquote>


Brilliant goal.

But it's already been established that he plays OK in Europe.

And he's made some errors tonight.

I'm beginning to wish we would get hammered because of this attitude. A player who is totally unsuited to English football scores a goal, and everyone smiles and says "Told you so", and nothing ever changes!
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


Brilliant goal.

But it's already been established that he plays OK in Europe.

And he's made some errors tonight.

I'm beginning to wish we would get hammered because of this attitude. A player who is totally unsuited to English football scores a goal, and everyone smiles and says "Told you so", and nothing ever changes!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure how much notice SAF takes of opinions posted on here, or in the press - he'll make changes if they are needed
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Originally posted by redinsyd:
<strong>

I'm not sure how much notice SAF takes of opinions posted on here, or in the press - he'll make changes if they are needed</strong><hr></blockquote>


If you say so, but I don't believe it. Or I won't till it happens at least.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Passes - Beckham again is better, and I've seen most players in the side make equally good passes as often as Veron does. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Why do we all continue to hype up Beckham's passing. I will be honest. Yes, he strikes a nice long ball, and his crossing is very good. However, his actualy short-medium range passing is far from brilliant. Its nothing special at all, and I have seen lots of players just as good. Can we stop hyping up Beckham's passing, for lets face it, he is no brilliant play-maker.
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Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Why do we all continue to hype up Beckham's passing. I will be honest. Yes, he strikes a nice long ball, and his crossing is very good. However, his actualy short-medium range passing is far from brilliant. Its nothing special at all, and I have seen lots of players just as good. Can we stop hyping up Beckham's passing, for lets face it, he is no brilliant play-maker.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Beckham's passing is precision. And regardless of whether he's as good at the moment as he has been, the fact remains that we've witnessed it, and it's served us well.

I haven't seen Veron contribute more to the team overalll than Beckham.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Beckham's passing is precision. </strong><hr></blockquote>


not at the moment it isn't....


He's at his best when he puts crosses in....when he doesn't he's just another ordinary player.

and i sent u a PM... :p
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


not at the moment it isn't....


He's at his best when he puts crosses in....when he doesn't he's just another ordinary player.

and i sent u a PM... :p </strong><hr></blockquote>


But if you had to choose between the two, who would you choose.

And answered.....
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Beckham's passing is precision. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, right. Good thing he signed a new contract last year or else you'd have Fiorentino Perez breathing down your neck to sign up this world-class playmaker.
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I think Beckham has done more for us than Veron - even if his current form is not up to scratch, he's no worse than Seba.

I hate saying this tbh, because I do like Seba. He looks so pleased when he does something good, but I'm just being realistic. No-one can deny that he has added nothing to the team in the PL.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>But if you had to choose between the two, who would you choose.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Beckham can take his boots and get out of the door for me. If he can't stay on that wing, then he can take a great big running jump over the ship canal. :p
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Beckham can take his boots and get out of the door for me. If he can't stay on that wing, then he can take a great big running jump over the ship canal. :p </strong><hr></blockquote>

I hope your kidding.
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Beckham can take his boots and get out of the door for me. If he can't stay on that wing, then he can take a great big running jump over the ship canal. :p </strong><hr></blockquote>


As they say, tis all about opinion.

I'd take Becks any day. Until Seba proves me wrong in the PL.

No-one can surely deny that Becks has done more for us.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>No-one can surely deny that Becks has done more for us.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's very relative Livvie, he's played more games on form, and more games off form.

I've never understood the Beckham lovers when they slag off Verón at all. To be blunt, he's a rather average player unless supported by a fullback with decent pace - he has no pace, yet has to be deployed on the right wing (wierd for a player with no pace) because all he can really do is be the best crosser of a ball from a right position in the world. There is no doubt about the last point, he is the best at that.

My problem with him is this bollocks he has in his head that he can play central midfield.

It's simple, give him a good pacey rightback to support him, ensure he stays on the right wing, and you will see the very best of Beckham. If not, then forget it, he just runs around like a headless chicken, wasting his energy, which then effects his dead ball and crossing game.

It's only my opinion of course.
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Players should play and be played to maximise their strengths IMO.

Neither Beckham or Verón are at the moment.
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>Players should play and be played to maximise their strengths IMO.

Neither Beckham or Verón are at the moment.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That could be said about a lot of the team.

It's not losing games which bothers me as much as losing when we might have done better with players in the right positions.

But that's a whole new topic. :)
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


But if you had to choose between the two, who would you choose.

And answered.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

ATM.....neither. <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />


nah... Europe - Veron, PL - Becks


no one is denying becks' contribution to our success.......


but the fact of the matter is he's very one dimensional, take away his main asset..and he's virtually useless, coz he can't ain't a tackler or even a good short passer...


lets face it, as much as he tries, he's no playmaker..but a great winger when he puts those crosses in.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>But that's a whole new topic. :) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Let's start one then. You first, you're far more level headed than I, I would write an essay. ;)
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


Brilliant goal.

But it's already been established that he plays OK in Europe.

And he's made some errors tonight.

I'm beginning to wish we would get hammered because of this attitude. A player who is totally unsuited to English football scores a goal, and everyone smiles and says "Told you so", and nothing ever changes!</strong><hr></blockquote>

So, you want Seba to play shit and shit in Europe and then say "Told you so", and ship him out?
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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I think another Veron's problem is he just can't protect the ball from tackles (All other worldclass midfielders do this extremely well -- including Keano of course). That's why he gives the ball away so frequently and so cheaply which has often led to loss of possessions or even defensive troubles.
 
oh man.. enough with the seba bashing, he's good and if we're going to win the CL it will be very much because of him. You ungrateful bonkers!

Ferguson just said it again, that Juan's the man. Read it and believe it:

<a href="http://www.soccernet.com/championsleague/news/2002/1113/20021113mufcquotes.html" target="_blank">HERE!</a>
 
There are 4 main problems regarding Veron

1 we pretend too much out of him. If the attack is lazy and the defense a joke its not his fault.

2 SAF plays him in all sorts of positions ( lw am rw) and this ruining his form. His position is that of an central attacking midfielder nothing more nothing less.

3 Veron (like Zidane and R Costa) is not designed to tackle and win the ball. That is the defensive midfielder and the defense job. Asking this from him just because you have crappy players (Blanc, PNev) doing that job is not fair on him.

4 Scholes is BETTER than him. The English Prince is designed for OT while Veron ( who is used to defenses that defend :) ) is struggling.
 
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