He was an undeniable footballing talent of elite quality......and then you say he was overrated.
WTF are you on about?
The myth that an injury free Ledley King would have been better than Rio/JT...
- Thread starter Raees
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WTF are you on about?
Rio and Terry were two of the greatest defenders of their generation from a global perspective (within the top 10) and thus saying King would have been better than them if he was injury free and the comparisons to Moore he would receive from Spurs fans and some pockets of the media is overrating him. However he clearly had the athletic/technical talent to be a world class defender.. i.e. not as good as Rio or Terry but still one of the leading central defenders in the game for his era which was quite stacked for CB talent compared to today (within top 15).
Ledley King was great. He was England's 3rd best centre half when he was able to play. He would be far and away England's best central defender if he were around today.
The problem with overstating the fact is you get threads like this one that then go too far the other way. Not levelling that at the OP, but certainly some of the replies. His very best performances were world class and despite the injuries, there were enough of them to suggest that they would have been the mean (or very close to it) for him had he managed to have working knees. We'll never know for certain but being 3rd best in a field that contained two players that are in the top 3 CB's that the country has ever produced is no mean feat.
The problem with overstating the fact is you get threads like this one that then go too far the other way. Not levelling that at the OP, but certainly some of the replies. His very best performances were world class and despite the injuries, there were enough of them to suggest that they would have been the mean (or very close to it) for him had he managed to have working knees. We'll never know for certain but being 3rd best in a field that contained two players that are in the top 3 CB's that the country has ever produced is no mean feat.
A perspective from a player that would have played against most defenders in England at that time;
https://www.spurs-web.com/spurs-new...former-spurs-players-in-his-best-starting-xi/
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I don't think his best was better than even Campbell.
This.
I think this is where a lot of these sort of ideas come from, given Henry at the time was the best player in the league(world?). In fact Henry was so dominant his stats still stand out today 15-20 years later. Henry's direct quotes about King as a defender were.
"I don't like defenders who hold the shirts of other players. The only defender here who doesn't do that and sometimes still gets the ball off my feet easily is Ledley King."
"He is the only guy who doesn't hold players. He will get the ball off you without you even noticing. For me, that is a good defender."
"He plays without any contact yet is somehow still strong and gets the ball without doing any fouls."
It's all ifs when it comes to King. the reality is he had 1 knee and thus was not as good as other elite CB's.
Was coming in to say this. Woodgate was the one before Rio or Terry had got started, but his body turned on him and his path was indelibly altered.
Huh?
Rio at his best had arguably the best season any central defender in the world has had in the last 20 years. Nesta in 02/03 (?) is the main one who can argue that. Unfortunately VDV got close to that level last season, and also Ramos could be argued for everything he brings to the table (even though he obviously isn't as good at actually defending). I don't see King reaching that level.
King perhaps had the potential to be better than Terry, but Terry got the absolute best out of what he had (and his ability on the ball has always been significantly underrated). Could have happened, but I'd bet on Terry.
King perhaps had the potential to be better than Terry, but Terry got the absolute best out of what he had (and his ability on the ball has always been significantly underrated). Could have happened, but I'd bet on Terry.
Ronnie is a very underrated defender, i thought he was great in midfield too whenever he played there.
A myth based on a good performance at the Euros vs. France, a tackle on Robben and a 'what could have been' injury record.
I'd have King on a par with Rio and Terry for sure. He was absolutely fantastic but his knees went and that was that. What was remarkable about him was that even though he was basically unable to train, he was still able to play at a very high level which does make people wonder how good he could have been had his injuries not happened. We will never know but he is a Spurs legend regardless.
I think most here are underrating King overall. I tend to agree that he wasn't quite on Rio or Terry's level but to play to the level he did when fit with almost no training shows how much natural ability he had as a central defender.
As I say, a level below Rio and Terry, however without injuries he could have reached their level - we will never know.
I have Rio above Terry for what it's worth. Rio was the complete defender.
As I say, a level below Rio and Terry, however without injuries he could have reached their level - we will never know.
I have Rio above Terry for what it's worth. Rio was the complete defender.
he might be a spurs legend - but he was at a mid table club throughout his career. not integral players in title winning teams. We aren’t talking about David May and counting titles, we are talking about two brilliant centre backs who were the best in a generation for over a decade
to compare two of the great centre backs with King is ludicrous. Your basing your opinion of him on ‘what could have been’, which happens with many players at every club. It’s why some people go on about Morrison being more talented than Pogba.
No point wondering what could have been, look at their actual careers and performance and there is no comparison at all.
I disagree but that's to be expected. I think there is enough to see in his performances with Spurs that show he was as good as the likes of Rio, etc. but that's just my opinion - lots of other people agree with me though. I don't think that the fact he never played in a title winning team makes any difference at all. We are judging individual players not the teams they happened to play for.
Sure he was talented but the John Terry/Ferdinand comparisons are just ridicilous and there is no other way going about it. Strikers can have off days and still be considered class with or without injury. With defenders its all about consistency and both Terry and Ferdinand had a lot.
I'm not having it really, he was in the defence that conceded 5 in 45 minutes at WHL against us.
Spurs fans talk like he's a prime Berasi, he wasn't, he was just decent for Spurs. If they had a Rio, Terry, etc, they would piss themselves.
Spurs fans talk like he's a prime Berasi, he wasn't, he was just decent for Spurs. If they had a Rio, Terry, etc, they would piss themselves.
of course it’s relevant. Ferdinand and Terry were playing week in week out as integral parts of great teams, also playing constantly in the CL. It’s even why I threw in the David May example, that it’s not just about titles. They helped make these teams great.
he was never as good as Rio and Terry - look at it objectively, and it’s clear to see that. If King didn’t have any injury issues and had the career he did, even spurs fans wouldn’t argue it - but instead (and it’s only natural to do so as a fan), you fill in all the blanks and months / years of injuries and lack of training with world class performances.
I’ll give you another example, which has been debated on here, Louis Saha. For around 18 months he was brilliant, and he could have been one of the PL great strikers, if not for his injury issues and mentality. The reality is he wasn’t, because he didn’t actually do it, despite what his potential may have been.
when fans come out with phrases like “we will never know” - people naturally assume they would have been better. No one thinks, well if he’s have been fit his entire career, perhaps he would have been crap in all those games he missed?
I don’t imagine you will find many people who aren’t spurs fans arguing King was as good as Rio or Terry.
Well let me put it another way then. Do I believe that King was as talented a defender as Rio or Terry? Yes I do. Do I think he achieved anything near what they did in their careers? Absolutely not.
no you've missed the point. Because again, then David May would be considered one of greats as he won the PL with two different clubs and the treble.
Let me ask you this question. Was Ledley King as good a player as Rio Ferdinand and John Terry?
it’s not about talent or potential - loads of players have great talents, Ravel Morrison again is a perfect example, yet he has achieved the square root is zero in his career.
Is this just about English CBs?
Vidic should form part of all these discussion.
Vidic should form part of all these discussion.
I always felt Spurs where soft at the back in his era, even when he played. I could be remembering this wrong though and it would be nice to see some stats for goals conceded when he did and didn't play and in comparison to the other teams in the league.
No I don't think I've missed the points at all and May would never be considered one of the greats because as an individual he didn't have the same quality as the players we are discussing. The answer to your question is yes I believe he was as good a player as Rio and Terry but that is just my opinion. Morrison has proved absolutely nothing in his career other than he could look great in training so I don't rate him as a player at all. We are talking about actual players who did play at the top level here. King was a full England international and a regular premiership level player.
Just to back this up if you take the two consecutive seasons in which King played his most games and would of likely been around his physical peak.
They would be 2003/04 - King played 29 games that season and Spurs conceded 57 goals in total for the season.
Then he played all 38 games in 04/05 season and they conceded 41 goals.
Now I realise a lot of defending is mainly based on the set up of the team but if King was this legendary centre back he was made out to be then you would like to believe his team wouldn't concede a flood of goals each season.
I was being a tad provocative (even if Ronnie is underrated). That said I don't think anyone will ever agree on King as he was simply never fit enough to gauge a prolonged opinion of.
He's like a 27 year old dead rockstar. He is likely elevated beyond his station because he didn't have enough opportunity for a thorough examination of his abilities.
That's true of course as this thread shows!
Vidic was not in the same class as Rio.
If we are going to talk about our best CBs then for me it is McGrath,Stam and Rio and that is in any order.
Of course he was in the same class as Rio. I'd argue that he was better although I understand the opposing view on that. But there was no gulf between them either way. I thought Vidic, although not as comfortable on the ball, had a transformative effect on our defence as, even with Rio, we lacked that dominant CB who was absolutely brutal to play against.
There are no brutal players in the modern game, rules have changed that and I still remember Torres absolutely terrorising Vidic in a heavy defeat.
He is a good player but no better than Bruce and not better than Pallister or Ronnie in my opinion.
The only people I remember arguing this point - King as good, if not better than JT/Rio - were Spud fans. However, we shouldn't forget that Spud fans are second to only the Dippers in their detachment from reality.
It's just one of those what-ifs.
I do agree it doesn't quite make sense for they are three different type of players but who knows how fit King will actually turns out.
It can never be proven though, so it's just a fantasy, a nice what-ifs especially for certain fans to "cherish". I don't see the need to belittle them though. Let's face it, we also have plenty of our own what-ifs looking at our history and many generation of players.
There's a little bit of "luck" involves but seriously mainly it has to do with the players themselves. Career choice and keeping yourself fit are also skills. Rio and JT proved it themselves by improving themselves, proving it at the biggest stages and being fit among many other things plus being at the "right" club and manager respectively which helps a lot to prove it, King didn't and doesn't.
All three initially had that top potential, King seemingly have slightly more potential yet only Rio and JT fulfilled theirs and for me, the two exceeded their potentials.
I do agree it doesn't quite make sense for they are three different type of players but who knows how fit King will actually turns out.
It can never be proven though, so it's just a fantasy, a nice what-ifs especially for certain fans to "cherish". I don't see the need to belittle them though. Let's face it, we also have plenty of our own what-ifs looking at our history and many generation of players.
There's a little bit of "luck" involves but seriously mainly it has to do with the players themselves. Career choice and keeping yourself fit are also skills. Rio and JT proved it themselves by improving themselves, proving it at the biggest stages and being fit among many other things plus being at the "right" club and manager respectively which helps a lot to prove it, King didn't and doesn't.
All three initially had that top potential, King seemingly have slightly more potential yet only Rio and JT fulfilled theirs and for me, the two exceeded their potentials.
And I remember Bellamy making Rio look silly. Not to mention away bullying sessions prior to Evra and Vidic's arrival. I definitely think you're down playing Vidic's brilliance. Only defender to be crowned best player twice.
Great defenders have all been mugged off at some point
I do agree that Rio's absolute peak was better than Vidic, but he was only at that level for one or two seasons. He was never the same after the back injury unfortunately. Vidic was very close to that level, perhaps even better for half a season in 08/09, and then stayed close to that level for about four seasons. He took over from Rio as the best defender in the world, and was comfortably better than the others you mentioned.
I'm too young to have seen McGrath, but in the premier league era Rio, Stam and Vidic are quite clearly the top three not only for us but in the league in general (although VVD is in the process of breaking into that club). Those are the four who established themselves as being the best in the world for a time.
This is like the budget version of the "was Ronaldo as good as/better than Messi/Cristiano Ronaldo" debate.
every one of those players were easily better than Ledley King.
no one ourside of spurs has ever thought the lad was world class.
Funny this thread should come up, because Rio did an interview with The Beautiful Game podcast this week and he was asked about his top 5 defenders in PL history (apart from himself obviously). Vidic, Kompany, Terry, Van Dijk and Campbell. When he is asked about Ledley King he said "it's if, buts and maybes with Ledley, but on ability he was up there with anyone."
Ledley King was easily Englands third-best centre back behind JT and Rio for a time. This was whilst he could barely train. It's not exactly Rocket Science to say he could have been even better if he could still train.
Is that a criticism? Is the caf going to be saying Campbell is a poor mans Vidic next?