And it most likely was, if you use instagram you will know it
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
- Thread starter Livewire1974
- Start date
- Status
Useless to continue any farther if you're not even willing to read.
There are no guarantees in life. Our future will depend on the change we make. But fear of making the wrong decision shouldn't lead to a refusal to solve the problems that exist.
@el3mel you don't seem to understand. Player power isn't something the club can give or what, it's inherent in the fact that players are, well, the players. Imagine if Warnock were to fell out with his players at cardiff, what do you think would happen? Cardiff could either A) back Warnock, write the season off(read: finish dead last and get relegated) and use the next two transfer windows to replace most of the team. B) sack Warnock and try to save the season...
Or C)(what clubs would generally do in this situation) try to negotiate a temporary truce between team and manager, which would generally require both parties to take a step back and meet in the middle and is usually a temporary measure meant to work until such time as the club has the opportunity to resolve it(read: until they can either replace the manager, or start replacing the players)
Or C)(what clubs would generally do in this situation) try to negotiate a temporary truce between team and manager, which would generally require both parties to take a step back and meet in the middle and is usually a temporary measure meant to work until such time as the club has the opportunity to resolve it(read: until they can either replace the manager, or start replacing the players)
It isn't quality. They are giving everything, the problem is right now that is everything they have. Unhappy, unmotivated, disenchanted workers will never perform at the same level as happy, motivated and engaged ones
Good points.
The 'in' crowd is down from 11% to 10%, good stuff. Logic will always prevail blind arrogance.
If the club gives full support to the current manager and made it clear to the players he's not leaving and anyone who isn't following him will be out, the players will give up and start performing for their career, even if the board is planning behind doors for managerial chage later on. Leave it like it's, letting the problems in dressing room continue then just do the managerial change at the end will finally give the player the feeling they have enough power to push out any manager they don't like on their own.
Again, you don't seem to understand. Players are NOT intentionally underperforming because they want to get rid of the manager. They quite simply aren't engaged anymore, they're literally unable to really listen to him anymore. Forcing the issue like that is unlikely to work. Far more likely to further alienate the players in fact. And most of them are not playing for their careers. If they're out at United they'll find another team(plus, i'd like to see United act like this towards Mr Alexis "club still owes me £100m" Sanchez)
And no, players aren't kids. They aren't going to think "oooh we can get managers sacked now!" That's not how it works. They knew they can the manager sacked all along - but getting the manager sacked implies failure. Nobody actually wants to fail. "Getting the manager sacked" isn't a conscious decision made overnight because the "the boss was mean to me yesterday", it's the consequence of a protracted, toxic working relationship*
*Unless the player in question is someone like Messi. Then yes, he could get managers sacked on a whim. But then again, if you had something like that on your team, would you be willing to lose it?
That's a great post and a great analogy - I've seen this happen in high performing teams and the thing people don't realise is that it gradually creeps up on you. A manager can create just that little extra toxicity and at first you barely notice the impact. However over time you start to realise that your performance and that of the team is being held back.
You have been giving your all, but the Manager is throwing things in the way, is creating disharmony and discord that leads to misunderstandings. All of this is vital energy taken away from your activity or your rest and it begins to have a massive effect all of a sudden. Something usually triggers a big issue and suddenly you realise just how bad things have got.
Removing that toxicity early can mean you can snap right back into your old groove, but the longer it goes on the more you question yourself or get locked into negative spirals.
If Jose was interested in resolving this he would have gone quiet with the press or blamed himself and protected the players. He has done nether and we need to extract the venom from this situation before it does lasting harm.
Again, you don't seem to understand. Players are NOT intentionally underperforming because they want to get rid of the manager. They quite simply aren't engaged anymore, they're literally unable to really listen to him anymore. Forcing the issue like that is unlikely to work. Far more likely to further alienate the players in fact. And most of them are not playing for their careers. If they're out at United they'll find another team(plus, i'd like to see United act like this towards Mr Alexis "club still owes me £100m" Sanchez)
And no, players aren't kids. They aren't going to think "oooh we can get managers sacked now!" That's not how it works. They knew they can the manager sacked all along - but getting the manager sacked implies failure. Nobody actually wants to fail. "Getting the manager sacked" isn't a conscious decision made overnight because the "the boss was mean to me yesterday", it's the consequence of a protracted, toxic working relationship*
*Unless the player in question is someone like Messi. Then yes, he could get managers sacked on a whim. But then again, if you had something like that on your team, would you be willing to lose it?
Disagree. We have seen several dressing room lossing incidents at various clubs last couple of seasons that have all the marks of players intentionally doing it then instantly playing well the next day the manager goes. Players can't make that shift that quick from crap to great in few says like what happened with Mourinho, Conte and Ranieri last few seasons. If you think they aren't doing it on purpose at times then I have to say you're very trustful person in general then.
It doesn't affect the players' career much as well, as the full blame will be laid at the manager's doors not them. No one blames Hazard for the 2015/2016 season for example.
true, but the changes should be full calculated, lessons should be learnt on what's wrong the past 5 years, proper plans, instead of just change for the sake of change itself
Agree with all of this actually, especially the last part. Players high in confidence and motivation will sometimes play out of their level, they don't play like a ball of steel is chained in their feet. How can you play without fear and confidence with the manager ready to drop you out of the line-up for a single mistake? Especially when the manager clearly have more leeway for certain players
I just did some background reading and remembered something that struck a chord due to the similarities to the present situation with Mourinho...
In 1987/88 season United finished second in the league - it was Ferguson's first full season as manager.
Edwards had made millions of pounds available to strengthen the squad signing back Mark Hughes as well as Brian McClair, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Neil Webb and Danny Wallace.
However in the next season as 1989 drew to a close United's form was so bad, occupying 15th place in the league on Christmas Day, that there were continued calls from the fans for Alex Ferguson to be sacked. Fans also demanded Martin Edwards' resignation.
We all know how things then panned out. No doubt some of Jose's dwindling support is hoping that this is a similar moment and if we just hold firm success is around the corner.
For me however there are a number of key differences...
Youth development - Ferguson had sorted out the youth development of the team, making it more professional and was building a growing network of scouts rather than just depending on the school network to spot talent. He was already assembling a group of young players who would be named the class of 92.
Squad approach - An abiding feature for me watching United train back in Fergusons time was that everyone trained together. It was not a case of having a first 11 and also-rans. Young players trained the same way and were integrated into the team the same way.
Behind closed doors - Ferguson had a massive temper, particularly in his early years, but he kept his criticism out of the public domain so no player felt publicly humiliated. Jose has not acted like this.
Unfortunate Injuries - Ferguson's worst period coincided with a bad run of injuries and the squad lacked the depth to compensate at the time. Jose doesn't have that excuse.
Any other thoughts on why this moment is not like '89?
In 1987/88 season United finished second in the league - it was Ferguson's first full season as manager.
Edwards had made millions of pounds available to strengthen the squad signing back Mark Hughes as well as Brian McClair, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Neil Webb and Danny Wallace.
However in the next season as 1989 drew to a close United's form was so bad, occupying 15th place in the league on Christmas Day, that there were continued calls from the fans for Alex Ferguson to be sacked. Fans also demanded Martin Edwards' resignation.
We all know how things then panned out. No doubt some of Jose's dwindling support is hoping that this is a similar moment and if we just hold firm success is around the corner.
For me however there are a number of key differences...
Youth development - Ferguson had sorted out the youth development of the team, making it more professional and was building a growing network of scouts rather than just depending on the school network to spot talent. He was already assembling a group of young players who would be named the class of 92.
Squad approach - An abiding feature for me watching United train back in Fergusons time was that everyone trained together. It was not a case of having a first 11 and also-rans. Young players trained the same way and were integrated into the team the same way.
Behind closed doors - Ferguson had a massive temper, particularly in his early years, but he kept his criticism out of the public domain so no player felt publicly humiliated. Jose has not acted like this.
Unfortunate Injuries - Ferguson's worst period coincided with a bad run of injuries and the squad lacked the depth to compensate at the time. Jose doesn't have that excuse.
Any other thoughts on why this moment is not like '89?
When SAF took over United in 1986, it was a team that had won a few Cups and had some good seasons here and there but never looked like realistic Title challengers - possible exception of 85/86, but selling Hughes to Barcelona meant united "finished fourth in a two horse race" - it was a big club that had been in mostly a bad way for decades as opposed to Mourinho taking over a United team that had last won the Title three years previously. Admittedly it was a team that needed a complete rebuild but nowhere near the extent of the job Ferguson had.
I also think when SAF took over he had won many trophies in Scotland with Aberdeen plus the old European Cup Winners Cup but he wasn't really rated very highly outside of Scotland so the expectations of him would have been nowhere near as with Mourinho who was expected to come in, sort things out and deliver a Title within a year or two. So that would have given SAF a lot more time to deliver than Mourinho, and that was one area where Ferguson had more leeway. Whether SAF would actually have been sacked had United not won the FA Cup in 1990, everyone has their opinion but we will never know, but that certainly was the turning point for him.
You make some really good points, the piece about the "Great Leap Forward" scenario where everything just clicks into place after a spell of almost moving in reverse gear I often think that myself, but it is diminishing with each game now, I am pretty much resigned to the shambles that we are all currently watching to rumble on for a bit yet before United and JM part company.
It is hard to compare them as you say, they might have some common traits but mostly differ in their general approach. People are criticising some of the players in terms of their current attitude and I don't doubt there is fault on both side,s but which came first, the chicken or the egg, as to where the real fault lies, it is probably a matter of opinion. The buck probably stops with Mourinho really, he is the boss but also the way Board refused to back him in the summer was odd, either give him the money and back him or let him go, not somewhere in between.
A penny for Ferguson's thoughts right now. I actually think the more you look at the big picture of the club just now, the worse it appears.
Not many people have changed their vote I don't think, just more new voters are voting 'Yes' from what I can tell.
Paul Ince.
http://sportwitness.co.uk/mourinho-wanted-two-serie-players-manchester-united-says-capello/
So, somewhat puts to bed this Harry Maguire shit
So, somewhat puts to bed this Harry Maguire shit
Good options
I agree with most of that but 'changing for the sake of changing' applies if you're relatively content with your current status. When you're not, you need act and make changes. Right now I personally we need change rather than it being something we could do with.
Really tired of the headlines and negativity. Just put him out of his misery and give him his payoff. Let him choke on the money when he realises he will never get another top job. He's completely found out by everyone in the football world.
I would sack him and put McKenna in charge.
Get Mike Phelan to be his assistant.
See if Rene what's his name is around to do some attacking coaching.
Get rid of Mourinho's staff minus the goalkeeping coach who seems close to De Gea and the new 'fitness' guy from Italy.
Get a DOF as quickly as possible and then all together decide on who next to approach to be the permanent manager.
We're not getting top four with Mourinho. We may as well have some peace and quiet whilst we re-structure behind the scenes. McKenna is attack minded, so let him get on with it, win or lose. If we stay with Mourinho, we won't achieve anything anyway. May as well have a guy there who will be respectful and is at least in tune with the club and its way of playing. As long as we don't get relegated, we live to fight another day.
I would sack him and put McKenna in charge.
Get Mike Phelan to be his assistant.
See if Rene what's his name is around to do some attacking coaching.
Get rid of Mourinho's staff minus the goalkeeping coach who seems close to De Gea and the new 'fitness' guy from Italy.
Get a DOF as quickly as possible and then all together decide on who next to approach to be the permanent manager.
We're not getting top four with Mourinho. We may as well have some peace and quiet whilst we re-structure behind the scenes. McKenna is attack minded, so let him get on with it, win or lose. If we stay with Mourinho, we won't achieve anything anyway. May as well have a guy there who will be respectful and is at least in tune with the club and its way of playing. As long as we don't get relegated, we live to fight another day.
Anyone here silently wishing United go lose a few more games just to get Mourinho sacked? Have we reached that level yet? Like in the last few months of Van Gaal tenure.
As much as losing games will obviously accelerate the manager's dismissal, I cannot actively wish for the club to lose. I tried during the Moyes era and again under LVG, but still found myself cheering when we scored and celebrating when we win.
No need to wish for us to lose, we'll have enough crap results under him to give the board plenty of opportunity to pull the trigger. Whether they will or not is a different matter.
Though that said if defeat to Newcastle got him sacked I'd sign up for that in an absolute instant. Going to be very interesting to see how our players perform in this one, if they really want him gone a defeat at home to them you'd think would do it.
Though that said if defeat to Newcastle got him sacked I'd sign up for that in an absolute instant. Going to be very interesting to see how our players perform in this one, if they really want him gone a defeat at home to them you'd think would do it.
That said, I think a loss to Newcastle, at home, would leave the board with no option other than to pull the trigger. Anything short of 3 points will see Jose in trouble. 5 games without a win would be unacceptable.
And it most likely was, if you use instagram you will know it
Also, Valencia doesn't know a word of english but can somehow read a full paragraph?
Stupid.
[QUOTE="giorno, post: 23145324, member: 104389"]Again, you don't seem to understand. Players are NOT intentionally underperforming because they want to get rid of the manager. They quite simply aren't engaged anymore, they're literally unable to really listen to him anymore. Forcing the issue like that is unlikely to work. Far more likely to further alienate the players in fact. And most of them are not playing for their careers. If they're out at United they'll find another team(plus, i'd like to see United act like this towards Mr Alexis "club still owes me £100m" Sanchez)
And no, players aren't kids. They aren't going to think "oooh we can get managers sacked now!" That's not how it works. They knew they can the manager sacked all along - but getting the manager sacked implies failure. Nobody actually wants to fail. "Getting the manager sacked" isn't a conscious decision made overnight because the "the boss was mean to me yesterday", it's the consequence of a protracted, toxic working relationship*
*Unless the player in question is someone like Messi. Then yes, he could get managers sacked on a whim. But then again, if you had something like that on your team, would you be willing to lose it?[/QUOTE]
I cant agree with your point bolded, Take the Valencia CL game two days ago.
5 minutes from the end, we are 0-0 and not looking like we are desperate to score. Paul Pogba receives the ball at the half way line, he takes 2-3 touches and then plays the ball back to de gea! That is not a team chasing the the 3 points until the final whistle, that is a team running down the clockto get back in the dressing room.
I would also like to point out the deterioration of the fans too.
In the same game, again minutes before the final whistle, the ball comes over head into our half ( 5 yards or so), Eric Bailey was first to the ball with one player tracking him about 4 yards behind. He booted the ball into the stands as though we were protecting a scoreline advantage and the crowd actually clapped him!
WTF? seriously, this is Sam Allerdice tactics that the crowd now appreciate?
When did we start appreciating negative football when we have no advantage?
Dont even get me started on Lukakus friends saying he is overworked and needs a rest after 4 sprints last Saturday and I never noticed him sprinting at all on Tuesday night.
The problems are much deeper than a manager who asked for 5 players to compete this season and got Fred.
Sorry for the rant, but the players are clearly not playing for the badge,let alone the manager.
And no, players aren't kids. They aren't going to think "oooh we can get managers sacked now!" That's not how it works. They knew they can the manager sacked all along - but getting the manager sacked implies failure. Nobody actually wants to fail. "Getting the manager sacked" isn't a conscious decision made overnight because the "the boss was mean to me yesterday", it's the consequence of a protracted, toxic working relationship*
*Unless the player in question is someone like Messi. Then yes, he could get managers sacked on a whim. But then again, if you had something like that on your team, would you be willing to lose it?
[/QUOTE]I cant agree with your point bolded, Take the Valencia CL game two days ago.
5 minutes from the end, we are 0-0 and not looking like we are desperate to score. Paul Pogba receives the ball at the half way line, he takes 2-3 touches and then plays the ball back to de gea! That is not a team chasing the the 3 points until the final whistle, that is a team running down the clockto get back in the dressing room.
I would also like to point out the deterioration of the fans too.
In the same game, again minutes before the final whistle, the ball comes over head into our half ( 5 yards or so), Eric Bailey was first to the ball with one player tracking him about 4 yards behind. He booted the ball into the stands as though we were protecting a scoreline advantage and the crowd actually clapped him!
WTF? seriously, this is Sam Allerdice tactics that the crowd now appreciate?
When did we start appreciating negative football when we have no advantage?
Dont even get me started on Lukakus friends saying he is overworked and needs a rest after 4 sprints last Saturday and I never noticed him sprinting at all on Tuesday night.
The problems are much deeper than a manager who asked for 5 players to compete this season and got Fred.
Sorry for the rant, but the players are clearly not playing for the badge,let alone the manager.
Of course we'll wait till the season is completely over .
When a board finds itself saying the next x number of games will decide a manager's future, the jig is up. We are wasting our time.
It just made up though. How many times did we hear LVG was down to his last match? I'm starting to have the feeling Jose will last the season or until top 4 is not possible. Then Carrick/McKenna until the end of the season followed by a new hire next summer. The bigger question is, will Pogba be sold in January?
Ex players' take:
Giggsy (4. oct '18):
During a press conference to announce the Wales squad, Giggs shrugged off the comment when asked if Mourinho should go. He said: "No. They're going through a tough time at the moment.
"I said that last time, where do they go? Change now and you'll be in the same position in a year or two years quite possibly.
"I believe he should keep his job."
Scholesy (2. oct '18):
Speaking to BT Sport in the build-up to the Valencia game, Scholes said: “I’m actually sat here surprised he (Mourinho) survived after Saturday the performance was that bad.
“He’s coming out in press conferences, he’s constantly having a go at players, he’s having a go at people above him because he’s not getting what he wants and I think his mouth is probably out of control and I think he’s embarrassing the club.”
Gazza
Giggsy (4. oct '18):
During a press conference to announce the Wales squad, Giggs shrugged off the comment when asked if Mourinho should go. He said: "No. They're going through a tough time at the moment.
"I said that last time, where do they go? Change now and you'll be in the same position in a year or two years quite possibly.
"I believe he should keep his job."
Scholesy (2. oct '18):
Speaking to BT Sport in the build-up to the Valencia game, Scholes said: “I’m actually sat here surprised he (Mourinho) survived after Saturday the performance was that bad.
“He’s coming out in press conferences, he’s constantly having a go at players, he’s having a go at people above him because he’s not getting what he wants and I think his mouth is probably out of control and I think he’s embarrassing the club.”
Gazza
I agree with Gary's second point but man he needs to stop saying that sacking Moyes was a mistake. Hiring him in the first place was a mistake.
Giggs joins the "Mourinho in" crowd today.
As for logic will always prevail, let's hope so...
Blind arrogance of course being those with little to no experience at all of the job in question.
Obviously you have never had a crap manager at the helm.Disagree. We have seen several dressing room lossing incidents at various clubs last couple of seasons that have all the marks of players intentionally doing it then instantly playing well the next day the manager goes. Players can't make that shift that quick from crap to great in few says like what happened with Mourinho, Conte and Ranieri last few seasons. If you think they aren't doing it on purpose at times then I have to say you're very trustful person in general then.
It doesn't affect the players' career much as well, as the full blame will be laid at the manager's doors not them. No one blames Hazard for the 2015/2016 season for example.
This logic that players purposely underperform does not make sense to me when you have players who are able to perform inmediately in a different team/set up.
Neville is absolutely right. Look at all the top clubs scrambling to hire Moyes in the last 4 years. We made a huge mistake not sticking with such a promising manager.
- Status