The Modern Draft: R1 - Skizzo vs Snow

At players career peaks, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .
Skizzo said:
Not sure where this idea of our team just sitting deep for 75 minutes of a game soaking up pressure and purely running a few counter attacks came from. We conceded that Snow's midfield would have the edge of possession in midfield, but as pointed out elsewhere, his 3 attackers aren't possession players who will pass and move endlessly. They'll all want the ball at their feet and try and dribble to beat a man. He doesn't have a Messi type player who will drop and just pass, pass, pass all game and have him with 70% possession.

With Lewandowski, Muller, Silva, and Matuidi, we have players who are comfortable on the ball. The difference is, when he has the ball, we have players who will work hard to get it back on defence..he can't really boast the same.
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I think I just don't rate Lass as much as you do. I don't see him competing with likes of Biscuit and Modric in anyway
 
Skizzo said:
dominate midfield with passing? where is his threat coming from?

How will his defence cope with our fluid attacking midfielders, runs from deep, and movement up top from an all round forward in Lewandowski?
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Modric and Thiago are both solid players going forward. Hazard alone is a significant threat.

My problem is I find a large disconnect between your attack and midfield. And I don't know how often you'll have the ball to be able to create said chances. Finally, Busquets so often gets overlooked for his defensive qualities but he is a top class DM.
 
Substitution time. @Edgar Allan Pillow

Keita coming in for Diarra. Work rate will still be the same, but his passing will improve our movement going forward. He'll be sitting deep with Matuidi in a 4-2-2-2 style that Man City usually run. Silva takes up his preferred role on the AM position, slightly off set to the right, looking to cut centrally. Sterling occupies the left, and will look to drive forward at the defence, or out wide. Muller slides farther ahead to play just off Lewandowski. He'll look to link up play, and will play around the box. He'll also drift wide into the space opened up by Silva when he moves centrally.

This gives us bodies closer to the midfield, negating much of the apparent 90% possession we've been giving up. Here we have nothing given up defensively, but have shuffled personnel up front to maximize ball retention, and get our danger men in their most dangerous areas.

 
crappycraperson said:
I think I just don't rate Lass as much as you do. I don't see him competing with likes of Biscuit and Modric in anyway
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I thought he may get kind of a bad rap, especially since his time in England wasn't great. Keita comes in for him now. 4-2-2-2 in a City style. Silva moving to his AMC role, slightly off set.
 
rpitroda said:
Modric and Thiago are both solid players going forward. Hazard alone is a significant threat.

My problem is I find a large disconnect between your attack and midfield. And I don't know how often you'll have the ball to be able to create said chances. Finally, Busquets so often gets overlooked for his defensive qualities but he is a top class DM.
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Minimizing the disconnect now. We'll have Keita and Matuidi deeper, both able to drive forward with the ball, and pass and link up with Silva or Sterling. Modric and Thiago won't put in much of a shift defensively (if at all) and won't track those runs...meaning when we do move forward, we'll have advantages and space to exploit.
 
Good sub Skizzo. I was going to vote for Snow but going to think about it more. Will be back later
 
Physiocrat said:
Good sub Skizzo. I was going to vote for Snow but going to think about it more. Will be back later
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Cheers. Could see Diarra wasn't getting any credit for the job he was doing, and Muller and Silva weren't getting much appreciation in the original set up. This doesn't change too much offensively in theory, Silva will still move inside, but from his more preferred central role. Muller will be more advanced, but will now be able to find acres of space out on the right with Silva drifting in. Sterling will still look to be direct with his running, and now we have the added benefit of having Matuidi and Keita, two physical players to sit deep, but able to drive forward with power when needed.
 
crappycraperson said:
Yes. As I said I thought that Skizzo's team could soak up pressure with that defense and DM duo and hit on counter. But then I bought into some of the arguments made against it being an effective CA team. I don't see Silva as someone who will thrive in a team that does not dominate possession. Someone like Muller in his 2010 WC role could be someone who could play a part in CA team as a wing forward but you seem to want to play his current better version and while he would be an asset pressing up front, I don't see him being as effective with that MF duo behind him. Sterling + Evra seems like your best outlet of creating something on counter. But Silva was one of the big reasons I voted for your team. I don't have any qualms about him not being in middle, it is obvious he will almost always cut in but as said before I don't see him thriving with those 2 DM behind him against that MF trio and I don't see your team being as effective without Silva playing well.
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crappycraperson said:
It is not just about the 2 DMs, it is about if Silva is part of a dominant midfield or not. Even in Europe, Silva is much less effective when someone like Toure is not able to stamp his authority. I don't see Silva as an Ozil-esque player who will be quiet the whole game and then just slip a beauty of a pass when he has the ball. I think he needs to have the ball a good duration of the match to make an impact.
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There is this narrative made out here that his side will be dominating possession 70% plus or something and that we'll struggle to get the ball with counter attacks being our only option which I don't agree with at all.

I've addressed these points in the 5th post from the top on the 2nd page. I've no qualms with you changing your vote though. It's just your and @Barney 's vote change meant a '8 vote swap' to the other team if you get what I mean and I just wanted to know why.
 
Skizzo said:
Substitution time. @Edgar Allan Pillow

Keita coming in for Diarra. Work rate will still be the same, but his passing will improve our movement going forward. He'll be sitting deep with Matuidi in a 4-2-2-2 style that Man City usually run. Silva takes up his preferred role on the AM position, slightly off set to the right, looking to cut centrally. Sterling occupies the left, and will look to drive forward at the defence, or out wide. Muller slides farther ahead to play just off Lewandowski. He'll look to link up play, and will play around the box. He'll also drift wide into the space opened up by Silva when he moves centrally.

This gives us bodies closer to the midfield, negating much of the apparent 90% possession we've been giving up. Here we have nothing given up defensively, but have shuffled personnel up front to maximize ball retention, and get our danger men in their most dangerous areas.

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Looks great to me pal, much better.
 
Joga Bonito said:
There is this narrative made out here that his side will be dominating possession 70% plus or something and that we'll struggle to get the ball with counter attacks being our only option which I don't agree with at all.

I've addressed these points in the 5th post from the top on the 2nd page. I've no qualms with you changing your vote though. It's just your and @Barney 's vote change meant a '8 vote swap' to the other team if you get what I mean and I just wanted to know why.
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To be honest, this is why I don't agree with 2 votes per manager rule. It puts too much onus on the managers (many chicken out of voting due to this reason) and is demeaning to the scan voters at the same time.
 
crappycraperson said:
To be honest, this is why I don't agree with 2 votes per manager rule. It puts too much onus on the managers (many chicken out of voting due to this reason) and is demeaning to the scan voters at the same time.
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Nah, tbh I don't really have a problem with it at all. It's just that an explanation would be preferable if a manager votes, esp if they are changing votes.:p. Like I said earlier, I have no qualms with managers or anyone, for that matter, changing votes but it leaves the manager in the dark if there isn't any reason or feedback provided.

Anyway thanks for your explanation, appreciate it.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Please don't @Skizzo , that would be a game changer, and not for your best interest imo
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Can't drop Sterling anyway, but wouldnt want to. Sterling offers a direct, pacey threat which would be like kryptonite to his high line.

Slight tactical tweak brings in Keita for Diarra. He wasn't getting much love, and Keita has more of an all round game, as well as being able to do the same job as Diarra. Now Silva takes up his best position, Muller thrives in the space opening up behind the defence and in the pocket of space to the right...and Matuidi and Keita both will have little resistance from snow's midfield when they drive forward.

While snow has players who can play possession...they won't be dominated 70+%. They would have an edge...but they have a lot of passengers defensively..and that's what makes him unable to stop us scoring.

I'll say it again, I've answered how we stop his threat....he's had no answer how to stop ours.
 
crappycraperson said:
To be honest, this is why I don't agree with 2 votes per manager rule. It puts too much onus on the managers (many chicken out of voting due to this reason) and is demeaning to the scan voters at the same time.
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I think its a great incentive to scan voters to get involved with future drafts personally. I think managers shouldn't chicken out unless they genuinely believe it would end up a draw. No point analysing it through a post and clearly backing one side yet not backing it up with a vote.
 
Skizzo said:
Can't drop Sterling anyway, but wouldnt want to. Sterling offers a direct, pacey threat which would be like kryptonite to his high line.

Slight tactical tweak brings in Keita for Diarra. He wasn't getting much love, and Keita has more of an all round game, as well as being able to do the same job as Diarra. Now Silva takes up his best position, Muller thrives in the space opening up behind the defence and in the pocket of space to the right...and Matuidi and Keita both will have little resistance from snow's midfield when they drive forward.

While snow has players who can play possession...they won't be dominated 70+%. They would have an edge...but they have a lot of passengers defensively..and that's what makes him unable to stop us scoring.

I'll say it again, I've answered how we stop his threat....he's had no answer how to stop ours.
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I actually think you should've kept the same 4-2-3-1 with Keita instead of Lass. Formation might've looked the same but Keita adds a simple passing game Lass doesn't posses.

I'm really not loving the new formation(not the sub itself), and unless I wasn't sure Silva-Muller won't do the same movement as they would've in the 4-2-3-1 I would withdraw my vote
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
I actually think you should've kept the same 4-2-3-1 with Keita instead of Lass. Formation might've looked the same but Keita adds a simple passing game Lass doesn't posses.

I'm really not loving the new formation(not the sub itself), and unless I wasn't sure Silva-Muller won't do the same movement as they would've in the 4-2-3-1 I would withdraw my vote
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Movement wise up top, its basically the same...but people seem to find ways to complain about things aesthetically. Every page so far has been mentioned that Muller would move forward, fill space in the right, and Silva would drift centrally...but because on a diagram it shows Muller in the middle, and Silva on the right...they're stuck to those positions.

The new formation is basically showing their movement, more than a complete tactical overhaul. It's still 2 midfielders deep, with 3 men behind Lewandowski. Sterling still goes right, Muller and Silva still make the same runs and movements...but maybe now people can actually visualize it since it was some foreign concept before :)
 
voted for Skizzo, Snow's defence is weak, and hasn't got the required protection IMO

Also I don't think his attack is set-up well
 
Heading to bed now, so don't think I'll be back before the end of the game...so I'll leave my final thoughts here.

As far as this supposed possession vs counter attacking match going on...that was never the case. Even less so now. When we don't have the ball, we have grafters throughout the team who will be pressing hard to win back possession. When snow's midfield loses the ball, they won't get that same workrate from Thiago and Modric to win it back.

I'm still yet to see a response from Snow in regards to his OP claims re: Hazard and Adriano. He claims Adriano will do damage to my defence due to Hazard being Messi-lite. As stated multiple times already, Hazard has failed to have any impact against Juanfran (his opposite number in this game...just like Chelsea vs Athletico) and was even criticized for his lack of effort defensively, leading to Juanfran having a hand in 2 goals. With Hazard not being the super player he was originally made out to be, Adriano would have to do more to have an impact himself...something he would struggle to do in this system which he has never thrived in. All his goal scoring exploits came in a different system, or with 2 up top. He would be isolated here.

Hypocritical claims have been made throughout the thread in regards to snow's advantages. If Snow is dominating possession and holding the ball, he limits the effectiveness of his own team since Hazard, Cuadrado and Adriano don't play that style at all. They'll all look to beat their man and go to goal...something which will lead to turnover after turnover against (and tell me if I'm wrong here) the best defence assembled in the draft. His midfield can possess the ball, but they don't have the best personnel ahead of them to turn that into clear goal scoring chances in the ilk or Barcelona. Now with Keita and Matuidi, we have a better outlet to transfer those turnovers to attacks by moving the ball to our own forwards, either by driving runs since Snow's midfield duo of Thiago and Modric won't be tracking back...or Keita's ability to pass the ball accurately in to the attackers.

Lastly, quite simply put...I've explained how my defence is set up to minimize his attacking threat...looking at his defensive unit, you can't say he would be able to stop Muller, Silva, Sterling and Lewandowski running riot..especially since he already stated he's playing a higher line since his keeper likes to come out. The creative and intelligent players we have there would thrive in that open space.
 
Skizzo said:
Minimizing the disconnect now. We'll have Keita and Matuidi deeper, both able to drive forward with the ball, and pass and link up with Silva or Sterling. Modric and Thiago won't put in much of a shift defensively (if at all) and won't track those runs...meaning when we do move forward, we'll have advantages and space to exploit.
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Much better. Now I have to rethink my vote ha.
 
Point about Modric not tracking back is incorrect, he has put in great defensive shifts as part of Madrid team over the years.
 
crappycraperson said:
Point about Modric not tracking back is incorrect, he has put in great defensive shifts as part of Madrid team over the years.
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Fair enough. That's something I'll have to disagree with Skizzo (sorry Skizzo :nervous:) as well. Modric has been immense for Real and is an industrious player. However, he does have a valid point on how his midfield is rather lightweight and how his team as a whole can't consolidate possession the way it has been made out here. His front 3 are extremely individualistic and hardly condusive to an extreme possession based style that he wants to play. It simply doesn't cater to their strengths and neither will they play that way. Swap his front 3 with ours and I'll buy his premise that he'll be a top notch possession based team. Lewa with his selfless link up play, work rate and technique, Sterling whilst being a flair player is a proper team player with excellent link up play and finally Silva who'd augment that possession based style brilliantly. You can throw in Müller somewhere there as well :p.

As it stands you can't expect Snows team to be dominating possession stakes 70% plus ala Barça with Biscuits-Thiago-Modric and also at the same time expect his front 3 to play their direct and individualistic gameplay and thrive, which is how many are making it out to be here. Can't have your cake and eat it like I said before.

Anyway re: Skizzo's point, it will inevitably lead to turnovers and whilst Busquets is a top DM and Modric is a real livewire, that midfield does lack a bit of 'raw defensive' attributes as a whole. It shouldn't be a problem in an extreme possession based system where graft, industry and 'intelligent defending' are more pertinent than the need for 'raw defending'. However, that isn't the case here as it isn't an extreme possession based system. This is also compounded by the fact that they are up against 2 extremely physical midfielders (with plenty of drive) off the ball.

We also hope that Keita's arrival and his astute passing game helps dispel some of the disconnect issues between defense and attack that many voters have previously expressed. Plus Diarra is off and not many, if any, seemed to rate him here. So that shouldn't be a problem anymore as well.
 
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@Snow

You note you won't be playing a deep back line but how much pressing do you intend to do? If a lot are your front three capable of doing it?

I think Skizzo is right there may be quite a few turnovers and if you can't stop the ball from reaching his front four you could be in trouble.
 
crappycraperson said:
I think I just don't rate Lass as much as you do. I don't see him competing with likes of Biscuit and Modric in anyway
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Skizzo said:
I thought he may get kind of a bad rap, especially since his time in England wasn't great. Keita comes in for him now. 4-2-2-2 in a City style. Silva moving to his AMC role, slightly off set.
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Errr... the problem seems to be crappy (and probably others) thinks you have Lassana Diarra, not Momo.
 
antohan said:
Errr... the problem seems to be crappy (and probably others) thinks you have Lassana Diarra, not Momo.
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He does.. from his write up

In Midfield we have two dynamic, industrious midfielders in Blaise Matuidi and Lassana Diarra
 
crappycraperson said:
He does.. from his write up

In Midfield we have two dynamic, industrious midfielders in Blaise Matuidi and Lassana Diarra
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Oh, then it was me being under the impression he had picked Momo. Why does he say he was poorer in England? Lass wasn't any better than in England anywhere else.
 
So my opportunity to get revenge on @Skizzo for previous draft has finally come. Shall I cast the deciding vote and kick him out on his backside?


Counting by Manager's double votes. Still tied.

Team Skizzo

Pat_Mustard
Raees
VivaJanuzaj
NoPace
.
sajeev
Paolo Di Canio
Balu
Golden Nugget
Blackwidow
Fergus' son
Annahnomoss
|Neo|x
MTR
PedroMendez
harms
iamfalcao
MyOnlySolskjaer


Team Snow

crappycraperson
MJJ
Isotope
Barney
.
antohan
TheGame
MDFC Manager
Wittmann45
Enigma_87
KM
SambaBoy
Hernandez - BFA
The Don
rpitroda
ctp
Henrik Larsson
Raptori
 
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rpitroda said:
Much better. Now I have to rethink my vote ha.
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Physiocrat said:
@Snow

You note you won't be playing a deep back line but how much pressing do you intend to do? If a lot are your front three capable of doing it?

I think Skizzo is right there may be quite a few turnovers and if you can't stop the ball from reaching his front four you could be in trouble.
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Hopefully it helps outline so you can see that he really is overwhelmed when it comes to trying to stop our attacking threat, and with the attacking options we have. ... He really has no way of stopping us. Especially with leaving the space in behind his defence.
 
Given that the poll is due to close soon and since I've had no arguments to the contrary. I think Skizzo will have more of the ball than I initially thought and will score against that defense whereas Snow will have a more difficult time. Going for Skizzo.
 
@Skizzo grabs a injury time winner. Congrats!

@Snow. Hard luck mate. This was an epic match. So close.


Team Skizzo (24 votes)
(5x2 = 10 // 14x1 = 14)


Pat_Mustard
Raees
VivaJanuzaj
NoPace
Physiocrat
.
Pink Moon
sajeev
Paolo Di Canio
Balu
Golden Nugget
Blackwidow
Fergus' son
Annahnomoss
|Neo|x
MTR
PedroMendez
harms
iamfalcao
MyOnlySolskjaer


Team Snow (22 votes)
(4x2 = 8 // 14x1 = 14)
crappycraperson
MJJ
Isotope
Barney
.
antohan
TheGame
MDFC Manager
DanNistelrooy
Wittmann45
Enigma_87
KM
SambaBoy
Hernandez - BFA
The Don
rpitroda
ctp
Henrik Larsson
Raptori
 
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