@Skizzo @crappycraperson cheers for that guys I'll hold fire for now.
The Modern Draft: QF3 - Raees vs Isotope
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
It was just my cheap shot, going for the 'slow' card. Yeah, both are experience against speedy forward. Although I don't think any of your CB have experience playing on that formation of yours, being overly exposed on the side. My team may not have dedicated winger, but both strikers are known of able to attack from the sides.
I don't deny that but both of your strikers excel with speedy wing forwards either side of them or pace in general In the side. Your team is very slow apart from the front two and the width coming from your full backs is poor tbh.
It'll mean one striker is left trying to create all the width for your side whilst the other is marked by two CBs and De Rossi dropping in to the mixer as well. One winger/midfielder of pace in your diamond could have made the difference here I.e.
Mascherano
Vidal Di Maria
Koke
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Ok guys.. off the ball
Park Ji Sung & Marquinhos - double teaming Suarez or Eto'o whichever drops out wide.
Koke marked by a combination of De Rossi or Park
Mata marked by Gundogan, he isn't too difficult too mark as he as the pace of a snail, Gundogan is more than upto that as he is good positionally.
Modric marks Vidal.
Isco marks Chivu
Sagna is left free but is he going to get forward when Ronaldinho is ready to pounce, same goes for Mascherano can he get involved going forward.
My team can defend as a team and attack as a team without being disjointed, it is a fluid team that can transition from defence too all out attack quite easily and naturally.
I love it when people make these. It's like all the rival players will position themselves exactly where you want them... Here's a thought: Mascherano leaving Higuaín to Pepe and occupying the space where Mata has bizarrely chosen to position himself. Instead, Mata is where Eto'o is, and Eto'o is in that huge gap left of Chiellini... Would look different, wouldn't it?The only advantage is De Rossi is now on your defensively weaker side, which isn't a bad idea at all.
The only advantage is De Rossi is now on your defensively weaker side, which isn't a bad idea at all.
true that..does require a leap of imagination but I think we can agree that he is more likely to attack down the left with the nature of players he has. He's definitely more of a threat down that side and I have reinforced that flank with serious muscle and legs in the form of Park and De Rossi.Oh and Suarez is sure to get sent off if Chiellini is on the pitch, he's bound to want to take a bite.
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This game is close. The middle is heavily congested. Iso hasn't really got the attacking full-backs one would want to make his diamond work well - Luke Shaw is a far inferior player in a diamond for this reason. However Eto'o and Suarez are the perfect type of mobile strikers to try and make something happen with this deep three man back line. De Rossi is much better on the ball than De Jong was last game and will make transitions better for Raees team which will give Ronaldinho more chances to work his magic against Sagna- that said it would be preferable for Raees team to have greater with for his counters to work that well.
If Iso scores first he'll win but I'm not sure he will. I'm going for Raees for a narrow 2-1 win.
If Iso scores first he'll win but I'm not sure he will. I'm going for Raees for a narrow 2-1 win.
So trying to force myself to make a decision. I really like the formation and tactic Raees decided to go for with a defensive winger like Park playing instead of a full back. I don't think that Modric fits that role very well at all though. For me he is more a congested central midfielder who was changed around to let the other central midfielders benefit.
Isco for me doesn't fill a very important role either here. The one thing you do get from this set up is complete domination centrally as both your wide midfielders are also central midfielders. But then Isco's ball control and playmaking turns a bit redundant.
You would be much better off with an actual winger up there, or a 3-4-1-2, where Ronaldinho drifted out wide on both sides and Isco primarily was foil for finding Ronaldinho in good positions and to one-two with the central/wide midfielders who bombard forward.
It would be a more limited role for Isco which would allow Ronaldinho to be everywhere in this game. I can't see a reason why you would ever want to start an attack through the right flank as of now. You'd be trying to find Ronaldinho on the left nonstop and that would be too predictable to work. Isotope would just suffocate the left and force you to play through Isco on the right.
By the time that Ronaldinho has made his way towards Isco on the right the opportunity of a quick and direct attack would be over already.
Isco for me doesn't fill a very important role either here. The one thing you do get from this set up is complete domination centrally as both your wide midfielders are also central midfielders. But then Isco's ball control and playmaking turns a bit redundant.
You would be much better off with an actual winger up there, or a 3-4-1-2, where Ronaldinho drifted out wide on both sides and Isco primarily was foil for finding Ronaldinho in good positions and to one-two with the central/wide midfielders who bombard forward.
It would be a more limited role for Isco which would allow Ronaldinho to be everywhere in this game. I can't see a reason why you would ever want to start an attack through the right flank as of now. You'd be trying to find Ronaldinho on the left nonstop and that would be too predictable to work. Isotope would just suffocate the left and force you to play through Isco on the right.
By the time that Ronaldinho has made his way towards Isco on the right the opportunity of a quick and direct attack would be over already.
No worries Annah, appreciate your detailed thoughts onthe matter.
Modric played as a quasi left winger/central midfielder for Spurs, he is more than capable of combining both roles here and Vidal isn't an amazing attacking threat which will stretch Modric defensively here.. Luka can definitely provide meaningful width here.
Isco has an important role where he can drift into the hole and outnumber the diamond or provide width down the right, a base from which to build an attack.. he is great at holding the ball up and turning, one turn is all it takes to start off a brilliant counter. His role is more Malaga/Spain under 21's than Madrid in this set up.
I disagree that Isotope can suffocate the left, Ronaldinho/Modric on that side v Sagna/Vidal is a match up in my favour. Mascherano can drift over too if he likes but Ronaldinho has destroyed the worlds best teams - see Milan in 05/06 and Chelsea from that era.. he was destroying much greater defence/midfields than this and he was being man marked by more than one player. This will be much easier for him as he isn't up against an all time great Defence.
Mascherano drifting over to help will create space for Isco and Higuain to link up and take on Pepe/Chivu, with the support of Park.
He did the same for Zagreb, but I think he's too important for your teams play centrally to be playing as a left midfielder here when the central midfield is congested. At the same time you do want someone who sticks to that wide role like Park and doesn't try to further choke up the central area rather than a quasi left/central midfielder who would drift out of position.
I think that would open up too much space for someone like Eto'o and Suarez to drift in to. With say Isco in that left midfield role - sticking to that left all game long just to make it a nightmare for the aforementioned to find space I think it would look better.
Also about the central areas - there is just a point where more men won't give you much benefit at all. You have Modric, Gundogan, De Rossi, Park and Ronaldinho all involved in that battle in one way or another - Isco entering it will be more negative from losing width and an easy pass to the wide - non congested - area.
Vidal is a much greater threat than Modric, though. Vidal is just a box to box beast, who can score as well. Eto'o can go wide (as he's done it at Inter) and forcing Chiellini and Modeic to go wide. That will open space for my goalscoring midfielders to step up.
Raees needs Ronaldinho to come centrally for him to score. And that area is the strongest part of my team.
That's where I think Raees team fall short, with the lack of proven goalscorer in his, compared to mine.
Ronaldinho (one), and Higuain (two, meh.. even Marcosdeto never bumped his thread here..). Then who else?
Raees needs Ronaldinho to come centrally for him to score. And that area is the strongest part of my team.
That's where I think Raees team fall short, with the lack of proven goalscorer in his, compared to mine.
Ronaldinho (one), and Higuain (two, meh.. even Marcosdeto never bumped his thread here
..). Then who else?
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Vidal is a much greater threat than Modric, though. Vidal is just a box to box beast, who can score as well. Eto'o can go wide (as he's done it at Inter) and forcing Chiellini and Modeic to go wide. That will open space for my goalscoring midfielders to step up.
Raees needs Ronaldinho to come centrally for him to score. And that area is the strongest part of my team.
That's where I think Raees team fall short, with the lack of proven goalscorer in his, compared to mine.
Ronaldinho (one), and Higuain (two, meh.. even Marcosdeto never bumped his thread here
I'm not discussing your set up much because it is right on tactically. The entire team lacks a bit of flair and pace bar the front duo - but unfortunately for Raees here I think they will find space in the wide areas in this set up and if the get to receive a ball with space to build up pace it will lead to chaos and eventually goals.
Hard to justify a diamond either your full-backs are very dominant or you have a very unique AM who is great in a diamond.
That's the problem with fullbacks. Most of the pacey ones are attacking FB with less defensive attributes (unless they are Lahm and Alaba. Even Evra was questionable to some). And with many teams playing with wingers, people usually see winger against FB, and favored the more defensive FB. Thus having Chivu and Sagna who are better defensively is easier to be justified. Although I consider peak Sagna as pacey attacking FB too. And Chivu, as a fairly good passer, could help the midfield in keeping the possession.
Agreed that my AM (Mata) can be upgraded. Although I like his flexibility of able to go wide to the left and right (as he's done with Valencia and Chelsea), and adding more flair to my team. Also my team is setup the way Mata was having his best seasons at Chelsea: Pacey players on the front, with hardworkers behind.
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It's not too easy for me to pick between the teams at the moment. Raees has quite an interesting setup that's very dynamic and fluid, but I see some flaws in there.
As Annah pointed out earlier, I'm not too confident about Modric performing that wide left central midfield role well enough. Sure, he's played out on the left in the past, but it's the defensive side where I'm seeing issues. Modric is aggressive in his defensive game and will make it tough for the opposition ball holder to settle, but in terms of marking a relatively large area or reading the movement of someone as dynamic and energetic as Vidal, I find Raees' left side to be his weak point. With Eto'o also comfortable drifting out there, he will definitely have Chiellini stretching, leaving Modric isolated with Vidal, which I find to be a losing battle. This is where I feel de Rossi can be key as he can suppress the threat that Isotope's right side offers by marking that area in between flank and the middle area.
If Raees moved Park to the wide left central midfield role to take care of Vidal's side and have Gundogan take care of Koke's side, I'd probably err towards Raees. At his peak, Gundogan was tireless, and he combined his high energy levels with a good ability to cover areas, anticipate moves, and read the game ahead of him. Koke's an energetic, highly technical, intelligent central midfielder, but so is Gundogan, and leaving Modric to defend the middle area where he won't have to deal with energetic players so often and mark the smaller central area, which he does quite well, particularly if he's partnering de Rossi. However, Raees didn't set up like this, so the game's quite open at the moment.
Suarez is someone who's excellent in disrupting the opposition team's shape, and I'm confident that he will easily disorganise Raees' defence. Raees' team does have the energy levels to keep up, but the fact that Isotope's front 2 will be disrupting the defensive shape quite a bit will mean that he will get goals. Will he get more goals than Raees' team? I'll answer that question next.
On the attack, Raees will mainly focus on attacking through the middle. Whilst Isco was very good as a right attacking midfielder under Pellegrini, I feel like his work out wide is being slightly underrated. He was quite good at delivering balls from the right side, and he's an excellent dribbler as well. With Park also able to drift out to the right, Isco can also come to the middle and have more of an influence in the game as well. Ronaldinho's just...well....Ronaldinho. He's great everywhere, and I don't see Isotope's team being able to suppress his influence. It's damage limitation for Isotope's defence as well given Raees' dynamic, unpredictable attack.
So, who'll score more goals? It's not easy for me to say. Isotope's defense is too aggressive and not complementary at all. Pepe, Boateng, and Mascherano are all man-marking, aggressive, ball-winning defenders. There's no one central defensive player who can provide them the platform to play their natural defensive game. Real Madrid struggle with Ramos and Pepe in defence without a proper holding midfielder ahead of them. Isotope's setup is similar to that except that he has more legs and defensive aggression in Mascherano. I do think that Mascherano's massive energy levels and defensive determination can make up for the fact that no one's there to cover areas, slow down opposition attacks, and channel the opposition to less dangerous areas. With Raees, the players in his defense are more compatible and complementary to each other than Isotope's. However, I do see Isotope's great, dynamic, and unpredictable forward lineup disorganising Raees' defence along with Vidal and Koke causing more havoc.
In the end, I vote for Raees. His defensive setup is more complete than Isotope's, and he still has a great attacking threat in his team.
As Annah pointed out earlier, I'm not too confident about Modric performing that wide left central midfield role well enough. Sure, he's played out on the left in the past, but it's the defensive side where I'm seeing issues. Modric is aggressive in his defensive game and will make it tough for the opposition ball holder to settle, but in terms of marking a relatively large area or reading the movement of someone as dynamic and energetic as Vidal, I find Raees' left side to be his weak point. With Eto'o also comfortable drifting out there, he will definitely have Chiellini stretching, leaving Modric isolated with Vidal, which I find to be a losing battle. This is where I feel de Rossi can be key as he can suppress the threat that Isotope's right side offers by marking that area in between flank and the middle area.
If Raees moved Park to the wide left central midfield role to take care of Vidal's side and have Gundogan take care of Koke's side, I'd probably err towards Raees. At his peak, Gundogan was tireless, and he combined his high energy levels with a good ability to cover areas, anticipate moves, and read the game ahead of him. Koke's an energetic, highly technical, intelligent central midfielder, but so is Gundogan, and leaving Modric to defend the middle area where he won't have to deal with energetic players so often and mark the smaller central area, which he does quite well, particularly if he's partnering de Rossi. However, Raees didn't set up like this, so the game's quite open at the moment.
Suarez is someone who's excellent in disrupting the opposition team's shape, and I'm confident that he will easily disorganise Raees' defence. Raees' team does have the energy levels to keep up, but the fact that Isotope's front 2 will be disrupting the defensive shape quite a bit will mean that he will get goals. Will he get more goals than Raees' team? I'll answer that question next.
On the attack, Raees will mainly focus on attacking through the middle. Whilst Isco was very good as a right attacking midfielder under Pellegrini, I feel like his work out wide is being slightly underrated. He was quite good at delivering balls from the right side, and he's an excellent dribbler as well. With Park also able to drift out to the right, Isco can also come to the middle and have more of an influence in the game as well. Ronaldinho's just...well....Ronaldinho. He's great everywhere, and I don't see Isotope's team being able to suppress his influence. It's damage limitation for Isotope's defence as well given Raees' dynamic, unpredictable attack.
So, who'll score more goals? It's not easy for me to say. Isotope's defense is too aggressive and not complementary at all. Pepe, Boateng, and Mascherano are all man-marking, aggressive, ball-winning defenders. There's no one central defensive player who can provide them the platform to play their natural defensive game. Real Madrid struggle with Ramos and Pepe in defence without a proper holding midfielder ahead of them. Isotope's setup is similar to that except that he has more legs and defensive aggression in Mascherano. I do think that Mascherano's massive energy levels and defensive determination can make up for the fact that no one's there to cover areas, slow down opposition attacks, and channel the opposition to less dangerous areas. With Raees, the players in his defense are more compatible and complementary to each other than Isotope's. However, I do see Isotope's great, dynamic, and unpredictable forward lineup disorganising Raees' defence along with Vidal and Koke causing more havoc.
In the end, I vote for Raees. His defensive setup is more complete than Isotope's, and he still has a great attacking threat in his team.
You're definitely not familiar with Boateng and Chivu. They are are both ball playing defenders.And since when de Rossi is this magnificent DM? Every time we played Roma with him as a DM, felt like we had an easy game.
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I went for Isotope. Although Raaes has a narrow formation that works against the centrally-focused Isotope, I have big concerns over Modric's ability to cover lots of ground in that kind of killing-two-birds-with-one-stone role. Isotope also has the advantage of two strikers who excel in dragging centre-halves out of their comfort zones then leaving them for dead.
And since when de Rossi is this magnificent DM? Every time we played Roma with him as a DM, felt like we had an easy game.
I never said that they weren't ball-playing defenders. I said that Boateng is an aggressive, ball-winning sort of a defender who looks to win the ball from players or head out crosses from the box. Chivu is quite a disciplined defender, so he can deal with Isco for sure, but my concern is with Boateng, Pepe, and Mascherano being all similar in their defensive style.
de Rossi is a great defensive midfielder. Back when we played him, he was quite young (22-24) and was still not defensively controlled back then. I seem to remember him being a proper box-to-box midfielder back then with Claudio Pizzaro sitting back as the deep-lying playmaker with Taddei/Perotta supporting them. It was when he was reaching his peak years that he developed that discipline and control that allowed him to be a great defensive midfielder. He was so good that he could seamlessly drop back into the libero role in a back 3 and look comfortable there.
I love the funk in Raees team but the power, guile and industry in the front 5 of isotope is too hard to ignore.
Think Isotope won this due to manager votes
Think so too. Congrats @Isotope you were one of my favourites before we matched up so best of luck for the rest of the draft - I'll probably be rooting for you. TBH I didn't think my team was strong enough to match you due to weaknesses I had in certain areas and I felt Dortmund's performances of late.. didn't help the impression people had of certain sections of my side.
damn it. It's so heart-warming, getting the praise from opponent like you. Hope that I wasn't too harsh on my comments. I tried not to be aggressive over this Draft thing.
Thanks for the support, mate. I was lucky to get good reinforcements on the last round.
Mate the fact I had to pull out such a drastic formation change and put some effort into that write up is testament to how strong I thought your side was - I think the Saurez/Eto'o combination would tear my 3 apart in all honesty. Sagna/Mata are probably the guys I could fault, perhaps Pepe too.. rest of the team is solid. That said, you'll find it harder to upgrade than the others because you are pretty much committed to the diamond whereas others have more flexibility.
Best of luck.
Following the post match drug tests, it's revealed that team Isodoped.
Raees wins and draft life ban for Isotope.
Raees wins and draft life ban for Isotope.
Think you did incredibly well to create such a radical formation without actually planning the entire draft to go for it. I've seen and probably tried similarly odd strategies that had the benefit of picking the players for the formation/strategy - yet ended up less cohesive than your side.
I was thinking it then thought its too crazy. Then @harms mentioned it and the opponent I was drawn against, made it a necessity to give me a fighting chance.
Didn't hurt Argentina NT when they got to the last Final WC. Then when you see what Atletico Madrid have also.
The only time I rate de Rossi was when the Italy NT reached Euro Final. Maybe @Mali_Zeus can shed a light on this?
Didn't expect you'd come up with that formation, tbh. I honestly think that yours is just one good striker away on winning this. Lewandowski or one of my strikers would be perfect.
Yeah, diamond is pretty hard to upgrade. Maybe getting attacking fullback would improve it.
It's not doping. Just excessive hormone growth for health purpose
Massive understatement, every time I reviewed this I started warming to vote for you, then saw your fullbacks... What the hell is Chivu doing at LB in a diamond?
That's why I said Mascherano's industry and defensive determination can make up for the lack of completeness. Plus, Atletico have both of their midfielders sitting deep and playing with an aggressive discipline whilst the wingers tuck in and do all of the full-on aggressive pressing.
Anyways, the votes in the end showed how close it was. To be honest, you going through is as okay for me as it would have been if Raees went through. Both of you had great teams, and either of you could have won a one-off match.
For defensive purpose, and his passing ability from the back. I have midfield and forward on his side who can compensate for his lack of ability going forward. Even if I had Marcelo there, he wouldn't be able to venture forward, if the opponent has good winger.
You actually needed someone like Chivu against Goofy, not Isco. That only made it worse, they weren't anything to shout about AND they looked better suited to the type of threat on the opposite flank!
What do you want to know, something about DDR in general?
At this time he's totally out of form.