The Mental toll

McGrathsipan said:
So many games. So much travelling.
So many opponents to learn about.
So much information to take in.
Concentration at elite level requires so much energy.
The ability to control your nerves and emotions especially after a match like last Sunday.

The players look tired. Mentally tired.

The mental fortitude required for the run in will be a big ask and players worth keeping will come to the fore. (Edited here as previous looked like criticism)

It's not surprising cracks are starting to show
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I have to say the last match the fatigue was really noticeable. This was even in the first 15 minutes with 11 men.

You could see a number of the players weren’t sharp when accelerating or getting to the second balls. It looked like a few of them were running through mud when normally they are quite sharp and quick.
 
Judas said:
Not to this extent? It’s totally unprecedented and unlike any season before it. Surely you realise the difference due to the World Cup? Go look at a normal schedule. This team has been non stop for months. We’ve barely had a free mid week all year. I’m a bit bemused by your angle.
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Fatigue happens every season once you hit March/April period due to the amount of games played by this point. It's at this point grinding results becomes more important than playing good football. World Cup or not, no team is going to play at full energy the entire season especially if they're playing two games a week (which we do every season). It's nothing new. I honestly hear these kind of complaints every year.

Just focus on getting results for now.
 
McGrathsipan said:
So many games. So much travelling.
So many opponents to learn about.
So much information to take in.
Concentration at elite level requires so much energy.
The ability to control your nerves and emotions especially after a match like last Sunday.

The players look tired. Mentally tired.

The mental fortitude required for the run in will be a big ask and players worth keeping will come to the fore. (Edited here as previous looked like criticism)

It's not surprising cracks are starting to show
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Have you checked players wages ? I'm all for fewer games and lesser wages for football players.
 
49 games in all competitions United had last season compared to 44 games thus far this season which could reach 67 games if United reach the FA Cup and Europa league finals. Add in the winter World Cup.

In the treble season in 1999 United had 63 games and had far more reliable subs to bring on including match winners.
 
ExoduS said:
Have you checked players wages ? I'm all for fewer games and lesser wages for football players.
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whats wages got to do with it?

Burnout happens regardless of ones salary. In fact its known that burnout happens in line with increased expectation
 
Think we've done great.

We'll finish top 4, already have 1 trophy.

Looking at the teams left in Europe and FA Cup, I anticipate another final.
 
always_hoping said:
44 games thus far which could reach 67 games if United reach the FA Cup and Europa league finals. Add in the winter World Cup.

In the treble season in 1999 United had 63 games and had far more reliable subs to bring on including match winners.
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the treble season was a squad well used to operating under pressure, together for years and experienced at the very top, tutored by the master.

This team is still learning. 9 months ago they came off a season of abject failure to being in the title talk bracket - phenomenal.
The pressure of playing so many games is not something that can be dismissed and playing for United they are expected to win every game.
 
McGrathsipan said:
the treble season was a squad well used to operating under pressure, together for years and experienced at the very top, tutored by the master.

This team is still learning. 9 months ago they came off a season of abject failure to being in the title talk bracket - phenomenal.
The pressure of playing so many games is not something that can be dismissed and playing for United they are expected to win every game.
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Yes one squad well use to the toll the current one certainly are not. Top 4 finish with a trophy won will still be a good first season under Ten Hag
 
el3mel said:
Fatigue happens every season once you hit March/April period due to the amount of games played by this point. It's at this point grinding results becomes more important than playing good football. World Cup or not, no team is going to play at full energy the entire season especially if they're playing two games a week (which we do every season). It's nothing new. I honestly hear these kind of complaints every year.

Just focus on getting results for now.
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You don’t seem to get it, or you want to just ignore the blatant difference with this season and others, not really sure why but that’s your angle.
 
McGrathsipan said:
whats wages got to do with it?

Burnout happens regardless of ones salary. In fact its known that burnout happens in line with increased expectation
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This whole new movement where fans are supposed to worry about athletes' well being and have sympathy when they are struggling is one I can't get behind. I am all for the team implementing a strategy that deals with mental well being of all staff, not just footballers. If a footballer is out there on the field, I think it is reasonable to expect him to perform to high standards.

The reason why wages matter is because a lot of athletes fail to meet physical and mental demands of playing for top clubs. Those that make it to the top club should be held up to highest standards because they are paid to meet the highest standards.

Edit: I am shocked to learn that some players in EPL make less than £1000 per week, while highest paid are near £400,000 per week. What!!! I was wrongly thinking that lowest paid players in EPL still make around £10,000 per week.

Well, let me put it this way: I have sympathy for all EPL players who make less than £100,000 per week. I don't think they are paid well enough to have nerves of steel. Those that make more than £100,000 per week should perform near their best every time they are out there on the pitch because they are well paid to do so.
 
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Bilbo said:
Not enough people on this forum are able to consider the human element of things. It's PlayStation to most, where physical and mental fatigue and the effect that has on performances aren't a factor.

We've lost two out of our last 25 matches. Away to Arsenal and away to Liverpool. We've played more games than anyone else during that period. It's quite remarkable that we are doing as well as we are. We're having a great season.

Our online fanbase are shite though. Can't wait to put the boot in. No context is ever applied when someone needs to 'vent' or share their expert opinion.
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I agree with you and the OP, except your last line. Two things, 1. Do you honestly think that the people going to games are not also online? 2. And we have an estimated 500 - 600 million fans, 76 000 can go to a game at Old Trafford, the rest of them are "online fans". So essentially, aren't we all just "online fans" do we really have to keep drawing this distinction?
 
NHL and NBA players play 82 regular season games....without counting the playoff games
MLB Player play 162...without counting the playoff games

There are certainly physical rigors that make playing these number of games in football impossible. But the mentality of it is something that a decent team with mentally strong players should be able to manage. It's not without effort and guidance though, which is why I think ETH is (seemingly) prioritizing the players seeing a sports psychologist regularly.

It's been a tough season because of the game total...no doubt...but it should not be an excuse for any sort of collapse at the end of the season. Its part of the manager's and player's job to figure out methods to handle this...
 
pogbasformerbarber said:
NHL and NBA players play 82 regular season games....without counting the playoff games
MLB Player play 162...without counting the playoff games

There are certainly physical rigors that make playing these number of games in football impossible. But the mentality of it is something that a decent team with mentally strong players should be able to manage. It's not without effort and guidance though, which is why I think ETH is (seemingly) prioritizing the players seeing a sports psychologist regularly.

It's been a tough season because of the game total...no doubt...but it should not be an excuse for any sort of collapse at the end of the season. Its part of the manager's and player's job to figure out methods to handle this...
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Then again an NBA player runs approx. 4,1km on average per game. An NHL player skates avg 8km per game. MLB player runs on average a whopping 0,06km per game. A Premier League player runs around 11km per game on average, midfielders often range from 12 all the way up to 13 or even 14km. All the North American sports have constant breaks in play which help them recover too. Plus NA sports you can sub players on & off & back on anytime you want or feel they need a breather. And talking about injuries and absentees, more or less every player in NBA and NHL (the NA leagues I watch regularly) misses games due to injuries and/or rotation/injury prevention.
 
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ExoduS said:
This whole new movement where fans are supposed to worry about athletes' well being and have sympathy when they are struggling is one I can't get behind. I am all for the team implementing a strategy that deals with mental well being of all staff, not just footballers. If a footballer is out there on the field, I think it is reasonable to expect him to perform to high standards.

The reason why wages matter is because a lot of athletes fail to meet physical and mental demands of playing for top clubs. Those that make it to the top club should be held up to highest standards because they are paid to meet the highest standards.

Edit: I am shocked to learn that some players in EPL make less than £1000 per week, while highest paid are near £400,000 per week. What!!! I was wrongly thinking that lowest paid players in EPL still make around £10,000 per week.

Well, let me put it this way: I have sympathy for all EPL players who make less than £100,000 per week. I don't think they are paid well enough to have nerves of steel. Those that make more than £100,000 per week should perform near their best every time they are out there on the pitch because they are well paid to do so.
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Ask yourself if a player that earns 100k per week can automatically have elite mentality.

Sancho is a prime example of a big wage not coming with elite mentality.

They don't come hand in hand.
 
Strootman's Finger said:
I agree with you and the OP, except your last line. Two things, 1. Do you honestly think that the people going to games are not also online? 2. And we have an estimated 500 - 600 million fans, 76 000 can go to a game at Old Trafford, the rest of them are "online fans". So essentially, aren't we all just "online fans" do we really have to keep drawing this distinction?
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Perhaps a better way of phrasing it would be the difference between how United fans I speak to in real life talk about United compared to how people express themselves on forums like this
 
McGrathsipan said:
Ask yourself if a player that earns 100k per week can automatically have elite mentality.

Sancho is a prime example of a big wage not coming with elite mentality.

They don't come hand in hand.
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Sancho doesn't have elite mentality and thus is overpaid.
 
top1whoisman said:
Then again an NBA player runs approx. 4,1km on average per game. An NHL player skates avg 8km per game. MLB player runs on average a whopping 0,06km per game. A Premier League player runs around 11km per game on average, midfielders often range from 12 all the way up to 13 or even 14km. All the North American sports have constant breaks in play which help them recover too. Plus NA sports you can sub players on & off & back on anytime you want or feel they need a breather. And talking about injuries and absentees, more or less every player in NBA and NHL (the NA leagues I watch regularly) misses games due to injuries and/or rotation/injury prevention.
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Which is exactly why I differentiated between psychical toll and mental toll in my post...

The reason there are less games in football and more space between them is exactly what you outlined. But, a game is a game. And players in those sports need to mentally prepare for each game regardless. I brought them up merely to illustrate that there are sports where players need to mentally prepare far more than football. So, there are no excuses for not figuring out a way to mentally cope. It's an opinion...people are free to disagree.

But I was under the impression this is a "mental" toll thread...not "physical" toll...
 
pogbasformerbarber said:
Which is exactly why I differentiated between psychical toll and mental toll in my post...

The reason there are less games in football and more space between them is exactly what you outlined. But, a game is a game. And players in those sports need to mentally prepare for each game regardless. I brought them up merely to illustrate that there are sports where players need to mentally prepare far more than football. So, there are no excuses for not figuring out a way to mentally cope. It's an opinion...people are free to disagree.

But I was undertone impression this is a "mental" toll thread...not "physical" toll...
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Sorry I misread your post.

Still in my opinion many of even the elite of the elite players in say NBA & NHL have those "off nights" which has a lot to do with the amount of games in the regular season. So you say how can they mentally get prepared for a game every 2-3 days, I say they can't. They don't. There are games where they go through the motions and it is kind of silently accepted in that culture, in my opinion. Because it is unrealistic to expect someone to be at their best for 82 or 84 games every 2-3 nights. And when you think about it, the season we're having we're actually playing every 3 days which is not far away from the rhythm in the North America.
 
Utd heap said:
To what tune mate?
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Took me a second :lol:

McGrathsipan said:
So many games. So much travelling.
So many opponents to learn about.
So much information to take in.
Concentration at elite level requires so much energy.
The ability to control your nerves and emotions especially after a match like last Sunday.

The players look tired. Mentally tired.

The mental fortitude required for the run in will be a big ask and players worth keeping will come to the fore. (Edited here as previous looked like criticism)

It's not surprising cracks are starting to show
Click to expand...

I think we've not been able to make full use of our squad because of injuries to players in key positions and also because Ten Hag feels the drop off from his first 11 is too much. I think we would have seen Bruno get some rest if Eriksen was around to create offensively. With him missing, Casemiro is always needed deeper as Fred and McTominay can't replicate his passing. Martial's injury woes have been disappointing but I'm hoping they are changing the approach, especially with Ten Hag's recent quotes on building him up slowly. Hence, the no rest for Rashford, and with our increasing dependence on him to finish we might see the number of goals dry up. Despite the criticism of Sancho, I still think he's a just a small spark from finding better form. He is always able to play with others and makes excellent decisions.
 
Why all this excuse, are we the first team to have played more games than any other team before, i just don't get all this excuses, Imagine one of our player had an interview saying they were tired and for that wanted a holiday, I'm sure our reaction would be toxic.

This is their Job, they are being paid for something that makes them happy, hell if i was paid for something i really enjoyed doing, i know how much effort I'll put in day on day to be the best at it. There should be no excuse for this players that have thrown good managers under the bus in the past, any of them who isn't fit to play for us can move to Bournemouth or any other club that plays the basic 38 games.
 
izak said:
Why all this excuse, are we the first team to have played more games than any other team before, i just don't get all this excuses, Imagine one of our player had an interview saying they were tired and for that wanted a holiday, I'm sure our reaction would be toxic.

This is their Job, they are being paid for something that makes them happy, hell if i was paid for something i really enjoyed doing, i know how much effort I'll put in day on day to be the best at it. There should be no excuse for this players that have thrown good managers under the bus in the past, any of them who isn't fit to play for us can move to Bournemouth or any other club that plays the basic 38 games.
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Evening Dad
 
In your job - whatever it is - imagine you have a meeting. It's next Monday, and it's really important.

Will you perform better in that meeting if:
a. You have a full week to prepare
b. You have another crucial meeting midweek, which you first have to prepare for

If you say b you're simply lying. More preparation is ALWAYS a good thing in any profession.

That's the difference to me. This week, Southampton had a full days rest, then 5 full days to prepare exclusively on United. United presumably had a day off on Friday, and then had Saturday to prepare for Southampton. It has to make a difference.
 
Ultimately, you've gotta pay the troll toll to get inside this boy's hole. That's just straight up maths.
 
11 games in 31 days.

Yes, it's tough and I was expecting us to slightly unravel at some point. We're still doing well in the scheme of things though.
 
The world cup. Too many games. The pressing style. I could see it even in the last few games; they really put the effort in to beat Barca. The Leicester game was tough. I agree with the OP. They are human, and I could see the signs of fatigue. What is more, the same signs were there in earlier seasons. Fernandez in particular, I think, does not know how to pace himself over a season. He is fired up, gives all, works on the edge in almost every respect. And that kind of rocket fuel burns fast. I think that the injury to Eriksen made a big impact here as well, and so Bruno had to play all the games. Same thing with Casemiro in a slightly different way. Shaw looked great a couple of weeks ago, I can see him fraying around the edges too. Its not an excuse, its a consideration to bear in mind for the future. Ten Hag can do great things but he needs to complete the squad, number one, but number two, he needs to force players to rest even if they want to play every game. The schedule we faced was inhuman. He is a great motivator, maybe too good.
 
Do you want a successful team who competes on all fronts late into the season, or a team that finishes 6th and out of the cups early, so from February they can play once a week?
Next season we will have a much stronger squad and will be competing in the Ch lge as well (fingers crossed).
These games twice a week hopefully become the norm and if players cant handle 2 games a week, then we should be moving them on.
 
always_hoping said:
49 games in all competitions United had last season compared to 44 games thus far this season which could reach 67 games ...
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The reason for the large number of extra games is that we are competing well and going deep into all competitions.
Last year we were abysmal and got dumped out of every competition relatively early.
Are you saying that you'd rather we get dumped out of competitions to reduce our game count?

At the end of the day, if you want to win trophies as a player, you must be prepared to play more games than the players who are in losing teams.

The above also applies to general life - if you want to earn higher salaries, you'll need to do jobs which have more stress and have a high degree of scrutiny and accountability. Moreover, the workload will also be higher.
If you don't want all that hardship and stress - get a minimum-wage job and live an easy/stress-free life.

The players who have winning attitudes are loving this season.
 
Don't forget this bunch aren't used to these giddy heights and have probably already out done their expectations at the start of the season.Just hope we can get through the final stages of this season without too many injuries,top three & maybe another final would be a good season for us at this stage of our rebuilding not just the first team squad but the club also.I expected greater things next season.
 
Guapa said:
Don't forget this bunch aren't used to these giddy heights and have probably already out done their expectations at the start of the season.Just hope we can get through the final stages of this season without too many injuries,top three & maybe another final would be a good season for us at this stage of our rebuilding not just the first team squad but the club also.I expected greater things next season.
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Most of this bunch have played in a European final previously, some on multiple occasions so giddy heights isn't something they aren't used to
 
sunama said:
The reason for the large number of extra games is that we are competing well and going deep into all competitions.
Last year we were abysmal and got dumped out of every competition relatively early.
Are you saying that you'd rather we get dumped out of competitions to reduce our game count?

At the end of the day, if you want to win trophies as a player, you must be prepared to play more games than the players who are in losing teams.

The above also applies to general life - if you want to earn higher salaries, you'll need to do jobs which have more stress and have a high degree of scrutiny and accountability. Moreover, the workload will also be higher.
If you don't want all that hardship and stress - get a minimum-wage job and live an easy/stress-free life.

The players who have winning attitudes are loving this season.
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I'm saying trying to compete on 4 fronts is a toll even for established teams that are regularly challenging for top honours nevermind this United squad of players under a new manager and off the back of a truly woeful season.

And i might add to compete and have success you need a lot of luck with injuries and suspensions which United don't seem to be getting since the return/restart from the World cup
 
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