I would keep Evans. At United, as we have seen, you can never have too many CBs.
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The Manchester United Clear Out. Volume 2
- Thread starter Wednesday at Stoke
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
I would keep Evans. At United, as we have seen, you can never have too many CBs.
Also: Evans would be missed because his great form with Vidic, Rio and Evra, but no mention of Rafael's great form with the same players, when he was arguably the best right back in the league. Seems like he is posting with an agenda if he's using historical form for one repeatedly injured player but not another.
The fact is, you cannot make an argument for keeping Evans while making an argument against Rafael. They have both shown themselves to be United quality in the past but have both suffered with lapses in form and routine injuries since then. The thing in Rafael's favour is that he's at least shown glimpses of his class in the past two seasons. Also, we only have one right back, whereas we've got a bunch of CBs. Fair enough, they are unreliable because of injuries or inexperience, but we're talking about squad players. I think we're all in agreement that we should be buying at least one experienced defender.
Amazing to see how many of us put Evans at the start of our lists. He's become truly awful this season and I feel his time is up.
For me:
Sold/glue factory: Evans, Fletcher,Anderson,Powell, Zaha, Cleverley,Lindegaard,Hernandez
Loan: Blackett (McNair I feel has the chance to get a few games, he impresses me more than Blackett)
For me:
Sold/glue factory: Evans, Fletcher,Anderson,Powell, Zaha, Cleverley,Lindegaard,Hernandez
Loan: Blackett (McNair I feel has the chance to get a few games, he impresses me more than Blackett)
I would keep both of them. We have 4 senior CBs at the club and we could easily do with one more experienced defender if we are to compete in Europe next season.
First of all carrick doesn't have to go for me, but he also doesn't have to stay. If we bring in a midfielder like Strootman and considering we also have Blind, Herrera and Fellaini in the team there is no reason to keep him around except for oldsake. He isn't our best player anymiore nor is he even one of the best. His contract is running out, he is 33 years old, I don't see the point in a one year extension for Carrick and carrying a major salary cost for another season.
Rafael iam just fed up with, he is always injured and he never gets around to be valuable for the team. We always talk about Rafael in the same way as we talked about Nani and Anderson, great potential but for a million reasons never works out for us. I say replace and as soon as possible. Valencia is good back up so I don't need Rafael at all.
Even if Falcao stays I really feel as if the striker position is something we are going to have to address sooner rather than later. As much as I would love for Falcao to return to his previous form, I don't think he is the one to help us out in the longer term. RvP seems to be in some sort of decline...whether it is just confidence or form...he is not performing up to the standards that he did in his first year and has not for some time now. Rooney seems to be preferred elsewhere on the pitch and Wilson may be up and coming but he doesn't show what we need at the moment. What strikers are out there that we could possibly be in for that would provide longer term goal scoring ability and could immediately fit in and claim the starting striker role?
You don't need experienced defenders you need good experienced defenders. Evans isn't a good defender not even close, he is 27 and doesn't even master the most rudimentary basics of defending. The guy is a complete joke and every second he is playing for Manchester United he is making us look like a joke club. How often I haven't heard neutral fans and football pundits say that they just don't understand how a player like Evans is allowed to still play for a club like Manchester United and I was agreeing with them, I lost count.
Evans is of no use to us at all and he needs to go asap. First name on anybody to go list he should be.
I wouldn't be in any rush to get rid of Evans because it's not very long since he was our best defender. But, more worryingly for me, since LVG came in he has seemed utterly unable to adapt to what he wants or raise his game. Personally I find that a damning indictment of both the player and manager. Forget injuries and all of the other stuff. How many of our players are playing consistently well or have shown genuine signs of improvement? De Gea, Young, Mata, Rooney, Carrick, maybe Blind. Beyond that?
Smalling(when not injured), Valencia? Other players have regressed, but is that an indication of their strengths too? Some players have failed to adapt at all.
Of course LVG has to take some blame, but as you've said too it's a damning indictment for other players, who simply aren't up to the standard needed for playing for Manchester United.
Smalling's been better than last year, but appreciably worse than under Fergie, IMO. Valencia's been passable as a wing back without ever looking all that great. Absolutely agree that I think only now are some people appreciating that perhaps the brilliance of Fergie masked the deficiencies that some of the players had. LVG, regardless of the media spin and bullish press conferences, isn't in Fergie's league, particularly in terms of being able to wring the most out of a group of players (or at least this group of players). But what we were told would happen - and hopefully still will - was LVG coming in and working with the players and improving them. If you had to make a judgement at this relatively early stage then he's failing on that count.
We need a big clear out to add balance and try and end the constant injury problems.
I expect all the following will not be here next season and some are all but gone already: Anderson, Fletcher, Lindegaard, Powell, Nani, Varela, Hernandez and Cleverley, Zaha and Falcao plus a number of reserve players.
Then depending on who can be brought in and who does/doesn’t perform until end of season I wouldn’t be surprised to see any of these go: Jones, Evans, Smalling, Rafael, Fellaini, RVP and Mata. Not all of those will or maybe even should go but if we can get the right players then some will be surplus to requirements and if we do spend big we will have to get some money back especially if we miss out on the top 4.
I expect all the following will not be here next season and some are all but gone already: Anderson, Fletcher, Lindegaard, Powell, Nani, Varela, Hernandez and Cleverley, Zaha and Falcao plus a number of reserve players.
Then depending on who can be brought in and who does/doesn’t perform until end of season I wouldn’t be surprised to see any of these go: Jones, Evans, Smalling, Rafael, Fellaini, RVP and Mata. Not all of those will or maybe even should go but if we can get the right players then some will be surplus to requirements and if we do spend big we will have to get some money back especially if we miss out on the top 4.
We need to sell before we buy, especially in defence.
If we stick with 3-5-2 then we will need 5 central defenders (possibly 6) whereas if we move back to a four then we need four (possibly 5). So let's say we do move back to a four, we have Rojo, Blackett, McNair, Smalling, Jones and Evans. We have to remove three players before we even buy one. It's massive churn of players again which won't help the squad much. But it needs doing.
Assuming we do move to 4-3-3 or similar, I would buy one senior CB (making seven total) then sell Evans and loan out McNair and possibly Blackett (making four or five total). This also assumes Rojo, Smalling and Jones are happy in their new roles as they won't be guaranteed starters.
What's clear is we will certainly have to sell at least one senior centreback soon.
If we stick with 3-5-2 then we will need 5 central defenders (possibly 6) whereas if we move back to a four then we need four (possibly 5). So let's say we do move back to a four, we have Rojo, Blackett, McNair, Smalling, Jones and Evans. We have to remove three players before we even buy one. It's massive churn of players again which won't help the squad much. But it needs doing.
Assuming we do move to 4-3-3 or similar, I would buy one senior CB (making seven total) then sell Evans and loan out McNair and possibly Blackett (making four or five total). This also assumes Rojo, Smalling and Jones are happy in their new roles as they won't be guaranteed starters.
What's clear is we will certainly have to sell at least one senior centreback soon.
That's nonsense. You think that neutrals rate most of our players? They don't and that's a fact you need to wrap your head around. Also, Evans may not be an automatic first choice but he can easily cover someone better than him. It was not long back when he was one of our best CBs. How soon some of our fan base forget good performances and find a scapegoat is amazing.
If LvG does not put out a team to take advantage of the great attacking talents at his disposal immediately, then the clear out should start with him. He has managed to make all his strikers look lost out there on the pitch this season. This includes RvP, Falcao, Rooney, Wilson, Hernadez and Welbeck. The football being played in the last 3rd of the pitch is horrendous. You cannot blame the strikers if they are not being provided service in an area where they can go for goal. It's may look good playing your best football in your own half, but that is not going to win you games.
Out -
Chich
Fletcher
Evans
Zaha
Clev
Powell
Valencia
Hopefully get around £25m-£30m for that lot, put it towards the war chest
Chich
Fletcher
Evans
Zaha
Clev
Powell
Valencia
Hopefully get around £25m-£30m for that lot, put it towards the war chest
Out -
Chich
Fletcher
Evans
Zaha
Clev
Powell
Valencia
Hopefully get around £25m-£30m for that lot, put it towards the war chest
Who is better than Valencia at playing cover as a winger/wing back/right back though for a reasonable sum. I say Keep.
We buy a much needed new RB.
This would be my stage 2 in january/summer
Attack
Hernandez = sold
falcao= not signed if performances continue
Zaha = sold
Midfield
anderson = gone/terminated/sold
Cleverely = Sold
fletcher = retired/sold/coaching role
Powell = sold
Defence
1 of Mcnair or blackett = loaned
Evans = sold
This should make the state of the squad much much clearer and we can take it from there with the signings of a couple of CB's with the view to compete with jones/smalling/rojo
the freedom to make a big bid for a top class CM like Strootman/pogba/koke in my taste.
and the signing of a top forward like Bale/reus
Attack
Hernandez = sold
falcao= not signed if performances continue
Zaha = sold
Midfield
anderson = gone/terminated/sold
Cleverely = Sold
fletcher = retired/sold/coaching role
Powell = sold
Defence
1 of Mcnair or blackett = loaned
Evans = sold
This should make the state of the squad much much clearer and we can take it from there with the signings of a couple of CB's with the view to compete with jones/smalling/rojo
the freedom to make a big bid for a top class CM like Strootman/pogba/koke in my taste.
and the signing of a top forward like Bale/reus
He has played 604 minutes.
3 goals and 3 assists is pretty good in that time.
The problem is the lack of time spent on the pitch.
How long some our fans cling too a few long gone good performances to justify the injustifiable is amazing.
Evans is no scapegoat he is darn bad footballer that atleast once in every game that he plays makes an unbelievable mistake that leaves us increadibly vulnerbale and on top of that is one of the worst players to have in your team to set up your play from the back. The man couldnt make a decent pass if his life depended on it.
That is not even mentioning that he is the most injury prone from all our injury prone defenders and has hardly played for us at all the last 2 years.
Evans getting the sack has been long overdue.
If you cant see that than your biased and blinded
And neutrals rate alot of players almost every player in our attack and midfield is rated quite highly with the exception of Anderson and Fletcher ofcourse. Obviously many of those are heavily criticised because they have been consistently underperforming for quite some time but not a single one of those is rated as a bad footballer. But when they start about our defence and especially the centrebacks than they dont rate them at all and Evans is the one sticking out as a sore thumb. Jones and Smalling are atleast rated as acceptable defenders, that just arent much use when it comes to setting up the play and have a really bad injurry record but Evans is just allround rated by just about everyone that I know as a ridiculously limited footballer that has contributed nothing to our club in the last two years and whose only excuse of still being here is that he once had a few good periods when being linked up with Vidic at the hearth of our defence. Well Evans has declined as much Vidic or even more since then and both of them shouldnt be playing anymore in the defence of any selfrespecting topclub or even subtop club.
Many of these so called neutrals didn't even rate DDG till a season ago. Says a lot about them than our players. Also this notion that Evans makes this really costly error every game is a gross exaggeration to win a point you are trying to put forth. This notion that he is a bad footballer and the most injury prone among all our CBs is again something which is absolutely false. If you have stats to prove that he is more injury prone than a Jones or Smalling then please put them forward.
As for the fact that he cannot be relied upon to build our play from the back. That is the single most fallacious point out of all the points you have made. He is damn better than Smalling and at least as good as Jones. He has had slight dip in form over the last season but he has always been one of our better CBs in terms of passing and running with the ball to bring it out of our defense. You need to see his performances of even last season to brush up your memory, which does not seem to be too good tbf.
When was the last time Evans looked half decent?
And what were the circumstances? Who was he alongside? Are they long gone now so he's got nobody to fall back on?
How long before what you see matches what actually is and you realise he's long past the point of vast improvement and his current form is just what he is?
We have more points per game this year than we did for last season as a whole.
At the same time, we have scored less goals per game and conceded less goals per game than we did last year.
We're almost a goal a game down on the league winning season the year before that.
Why are people insisting on blaming individual defenders rather than the system and our more esteemed attackers?
How have Rooney, Di Maria and Van Persie been doing their jobs better than Evans or Rafael?
We've scored one goal or less in 9 league games this season.
We've conceded one goal or less in all but 3.
Be it the system, or the players. It is our attack which is letting us down this year.
At the same time, we have scored less goals per game and conceded less goals per game than we did last year.
We're almost a goal a game down on the league winning season the year before that.
Why are people insisting on blaming individual defenders rather than the system and our more esteemed attackers?
How have Rooney, Di Maria and Van Persie been doing their jobs better than Evans or Rafael?
We've scored one goal or less in 9 league games this season.
We've conceded one goal or less in all but 3.
Be it the system, or the players. It is our attack which is letting us down this year.
So basically you have this is his level and then went a step ahead and thought of that as a fact? Many players go through dip in form. Add to that we are playing a system he has perhaps never played in and his injuries this season means he has been in and out. The whole team struggles to create chances, so do we assume that is the norm and the likes of RvP or Mata are no longer the force they were and need to be shipped out?
Evans, Cleverley, Fletcher, Anderson, Lindegaard, Zaha, Powell should definitely leave IMO. One of Falcao and RVP should leave too (at the moment Falcao).
McNair, Wilson. Blackett and probably Januzaj to go in loan.
One of Jones or Smalling to leave if we decide to sign two centerbacks in the summer.
One (or both) of Valencia and Young to leave. Fellaini too if we decided to go for a top box to box midfielder (Pogba/Strootman). Otherwise keep him because he has shown that can do a job. Nani should likely leave too.
Rafael to be relegated as second choice right back. I say we should keep him because we need two players for each position, but not to keep him as first choice because he has shown to be unreliable because of injuries.
Sign a right back, a backup left back, one or two central defenders, possibly a central midfielder and a pacey winger. Doable?
McNair, Wilson. Blackett and probably Januzaj to go in loan.
One of Jones or Smalling to leave if we decide to sign two centerbacks in the summer.
One (or both) of Valencia and Young to leave. Fellaini too if we decided to go for a top box to box midfielder (Pogba/Strootman). Otherwise keep him because he has shown that can do a job. Nani should likely leave too.
Rafael to be relegated as second choice right back. I say we should keep him because we need two players for each position, but not to keep him as first choice because he has shown to be unreliable because of injuries.
Sign a right back, a backup left back, one or two central defenders, possibly a central midfielder and a pacey winger. Doable?
Even if we do buy a starting RB i would still keep Valencia and Young (on low wages) as 3rd and 4 choice defenders and wingers. We are not going to have for example 4 -5 world class wingers at the club 2 is enough with a couple of decent backups like Valencia and Young.
None of those points are false and you are full of crap about Evans, you make him out like the best defender we have got and that is a total joke. If you cant see how bad he is then you really need to have your eyes checked.
DDG has always been rated just not as one of the best which was also understandble as keepers like Cech and Courtois and Neuer etc were outperforming him. He was always seen as a big talent and amongst the best keepers in PL now he is no longer seen as a talent and considered one of the best in the world. DDG hasnt had this good of a season before now that he has he is rated for it by the neutrals so I dont get your point at all about this.
Evans was rated a good defender a few years back because of his performances and now he isnt rated anymore for exactly the same reason because of his performances.
A segment of our fans and you belong to that segment in my eyes is just blind about the players that were here under SAF (and especially the ones that came from our academy) and have showed promise one time. Cleverley is similar how long it took for some of our fans to see how bad of a player he was is still unbelievable. I still remeber last year alot of our fans were claiming Cleverley is twice the footballer Fellaini ever was and would be, what a joke ! Also took fans like 6 years to see that Anderson would never realise his potential and be a good player for us. Or the ones that still claim Rafael is amongst the best RB's in the world or Smalling and Jones being some of the biggest defensive talents in the PL.
All true at some point in time but not anymore. Just seems like some of our fans dont ever come around to accepting reality. Similar as to how some think United should always be able to score late in the game or that we cant ever play without real wingers because it used to be like that under SAF but not anymore.
Evans used to be a good talent and turned out to be an allround bad footballer. It is just reality !
lol no he wasn't. In his first couple of seasons the media crucified him and pretty much everyone except United fans thought he was rubbish.
Also no. Pretty much everything you said is wrong. The majority on here criticised Cleverley and Anderson endlessly.
In his first season he wasnt really good. He had no presence in the air and struggled to hold the ball with his hands. Obviously he was criticised. But he was always seen as a good talent, the question rather was that he wasnt good enough yet to immeditaly replace VDS as first keeper. The truth is that he wasnt because there was a period that Linegaard looked like the safer option in goal. Nonetheless glad that SAF stuck with him and luckily David improved on his work points. That doesnt mean he was one of the best in his first season, he simply wasnt. He grew into one of the best and definitly last season was considered as the best keeper in the PL or atleast on par with Cech, worldwide Neuer and Cpourtois were held a level above him and in truth I still think Courtois and Neuer are beter than him but nonetheless he is top 3 in the world and everybody acknowledges that fact.
You should learn to read beter, I have never said the segment of fans was a majority. I just said there is a segment of fans that cant be critical about Fergie players especially the ones that came through our own academy. Many criticised Cleverley and Anderson but alot have been defending these players beyond what could be considered normal and rational.
Whatever mate, you just said De Gea was always seen as one of the PL's best GK's when he clearly wasn't. Also those defending Cleverley and Anderson were definitely the minority, I disagree with everything you wrote in your previous post and I'll leave it at that.
First of all Rafael has hardly played so really weird you are crediting him with doing a good job as he has hardly done any job at all. RWB has been Valencia. Secondly major part of those stats is due to the magnificent keeping of DDG because we are one of the teams in the league that concede most chances but they dont seem to lead to goals. Meaning our defence is crap but our goal is safe because we have a good keeper. Final point is that it is normal to concede less goals when you play with a 5 man defence instead of a 4 man defence. There is always a man extra to cover for your mistakes.
The fact that our attack isnt working is linked to the fact that we play with a 5 man defence. What happens is that the ball stays with the back 5 for long periods of the game instead of with our attackers because in a system with 5 defenders the build up from the back must come from the centrebacks and they absolutley suck at it. Which is why people are so fed up with Evans (but also with our defenders but Evans is the worst one). This also results in good possesion stats for our team but really bad stats on what we have actually doen with the ball, we hardly get around to creating chances and that results in too few goals being scored. Rooney, Di Maria and RVP , Falcao, Mata etc cant do anything with the ball if they dont get decent supply from the back. If all balls being played take so long that the opposition defence has enough time to reorganize themselves than you simply will have a very hard time to create anything in an attacking sense. This also results into us playing alot of longs balls because we simply dont know anymore what else to do. It is the only way you can still reach the forwards as we lack speed upfront to do it with though balls. It is also the reason why Fellaini has been of so much use for us as he is great to play long balls towards.
But all problems can be traced back to the fact our defenders are limited footballers. They take to much time to build up our game from the back and it is hurting our overall attacking game. Obviously the defensive stats will be ok because most of the time when we have the ball the opponent just lets our defenders play it amongst themselves in front of our goal. And when we dont have the ball there is a man extra in the defensive organisation hold of any attacks. Despite that we still concede far too many chances which comes from an avalanche of individual defensive mistakes of which especially Evans and Blackett are guilty. Luckily enough we have one of the best goalkeepers in the world that saves our asses several times every game.
If we'd actually get decent defenders like Hummels LVG would be more comfortable to play with 4 at the back and we'd have a man more on the midfield or we'd be able to play with wingers which would help the creative players alot as now we have all players that try to play centraly and it is too easy to defend against. Also good defenders would be capable of building up the game from the back faster.
The funny conclusion is we dont need beter defenders to improve our defence (altough conceding less chances wouldnt be a bad thing but with DDG in the goal it is ok right now) but need them to improve our attack.
What happens if we gut the squad, again, and LVG pulls a clonker of a season. I can't imagine team sunshine keeping him after opening up the bank to him.
Bring back SAF............
Bring back SAF............
A dip in form for 3 years?
What is he, Torres?
Don't worry, one good game (bit of a pipedream) and I'm sure he'll be brilliant again.
Every point you made in that post is bs of the highest order. No one claimed anything of that sort about Cleverley last season and nor are people too happy with Jones and Smalling because of their injury record. Same goes for Rafael. Difference is Rafael is an excellent RB when fit which you will be stupid to refute. Anyway I will leave you to your thoughts on United players being crap, especially the ones who came through under SAF.
And I'll leave you to your fantasies about Evans being a great defender.
You should get your eyes checked or maybe even your head because you seem to be reading/making up things which have not been said. I said he could be a good squad cover for a better option as first choice. It was you who went on a mind numbing tedious argument about how bad a footballer he is who should be sold asap.
If any of these where to leave I wouldn't be to bothered:
Lindegaard, (One, maybe two of Smalling, Jones, Evans), Fletcher, Young, Valencia, Falcao, Van Persie, Hernandez, and to an extent, Mata. Oh, and Anderson
Obviously wouldn't get rid of all at once as depth is important, but to me, the players above could be replaced
Lindegaard, (One, maybe two of Smalling, Jones, Evans), Fletcher, Young, Valencia, Falcao, Van Persie, Hernandez, and to an extent, Mata. Oh, and Anderson
Obviously wouldn't get rid of all at once as depth is important, but to me, the players above could be replaced
It is a hell of a lot of changes but my perfect world would be
Evans - highly error prone this season replacement Hummels
Valencia he be 30 time for someone younger and better replacement mirallas or Cuadrado
Young same as valencia replacement Gaya
Nani too much of a hit and miss player replacement Reus
Zaha not shown us anything to prove he's a Manchester United player replacement Depay
Hernandez need to be more then a poacher at the highest level replacement berahino
RVP & don't sign Falcao replacement Benteke
Nick Powell not worked out replacement will Hughes
Carrick comming up to 34 gets bypasses too easy with or without the ball replacement Kramer
Mata I would play 4-3-3 with a dm replacement Strootman
Fletcher time is up to hang your boots
Fellaini Gives Hughes more playing time
Loan Wilson, blackett and McNair
I would also bring in dani alves on a free
Squad
Ddg/ valdes
Rafa/ Alves, hummels/ smalling, rojo/Jones, Shaw/ Gaya
Blind/ Kramer
Strootman/ Herrera, Di Maria/ Hughes
Mirallas or cuadrado/ Januzaj, Rooney/ Benteke/ Barahino, rues/ Depay
Evans - highly error prone this season replacement Hummels
Valencia he be 30 time for someone younger and better replacement mirallas or Cuadrado
Young same as valencia replacement Gaya
Nani too much of a hit and miss player replacement Reus
Zaha not shown us anything to prove he's a Manchester United player replacement Depay
Hernandez need to be more then a poacher at the highest level replacement berahino
RVP & don't sign Falcao replacement Benteke
Nick Powell not worked out replacement will Hughes
Carrick comming up to 34 gets bypasses too easy with or without the ball replacement Kramer
Mata I would play 4-3-3 with a dm replacement Strootman
Fletcher time is up to hang your boots
Fellaini Gives Hughes more playing time
Loan Wilson, blackett and McNair
I would also bring in dani alves on a free
Squad
Ddg/ valdes
Rafa/ Alves, hummels/ smalling, rojo/Jones, Shaw/ Gaya
Blind/ Kramer
Strootman/ Herrera, Di Maria/ Hughes
Mirallas or cuadrado/ Januzaj, Rooney/ Benteke/ Barahino, rues/ Depay
He should be sold asap we have beter squad cover already with Jones and Smalling and Rojo
If he is injured yet again than that might just make the managers mind up, never mind how he is playing.