The main current problem, players or formation ?

davidmichael

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Feb 16, 2015
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Simple question as I can’t work out which seems to be the main problem right now between the players or the system that Amorim is hell bent on implementing in his 5-2-3/3-4-3 ?

The thing I’m most annoyed about is that when Ineos were coming in they said that they’d install a ‘best in class’ ‘footballing structure’ that would identify a style and tactical approach and the head coach would coach the squad in said style.

We’ve gone from 4-2-3-1 under Ole to 4-1-4-1 under ETH to 5-2-3/3-4-3 under Amorim and no set style or tactical approach put in place by our supposed footballing structure, even RVN during his brief run played a different style to ETH and Amorim.

I get Amorim hasn’t spent any money to bring in players he’d like but already he’s showing a serious amount of stubbornness in playing certain players in positions that they can’t play or players in different positions each week and refuses to change the tactics even when like today they weren’t working.

Brighton knew we would play 2 men in midfield so outnumbered us playing 3 men in midfield although Baleba could have played on his own and dominate our midfield, we have zero width as the two behind the striker are both 10’s and the wing backs are full backs so offer nothing offensively.

On the flip side though it’s clear that a lot of the players are simply not good enough and when the ones that are passable are off form the difference in quality is so big that subs hurt us more than helping us a lot of the time.

When you look at the core group that are passable to good enough in Maguire, Yoro, De Ligt, Martinez, Mazraoui, Mainoo, Ugarte, Fernandes and Diallo you see that’s half of a match day squad yet we’ve spent over half a billion in the last few years on recruitment.

Is it the players that are making us look so bad ? Is it the formation that Amorim is hell bent on installing which in his own words he will “play until the very end” ? I know Amorim said it would get worse before it gets better but it seems to be getting worse every game outside of the game raisers like Liverpool, Arsenal or City and if it continues getting worse you wonder if Amorim will even be properly back in the summer.
 
The system isn't the main problem but that doesn't mean Amorim is doing the right thing by insisting with it. Top players can easily adopt to most systems but we have two glaring issues in our squad - 1) Technical ability 2) Athleticism. We are unable to put more than 5 passes together in the opponent's half before losing the ball and lose most 50-50s due to lack of physicality.

The only style of play we are capable of sitting deep, giving the ball to Bruno to find either Rashford or Garnacho in behind but with Rashford out of favour, two terrible number 9s, we are pretty much stuck in a position where we can't score goals and/or defend. That is on Amorim as it is his job to get the best out of the players (maybe that's why DOF Dan Ashworth fell out because he recognised the issue with Amorim's system and our players suitiabiltiy to it)

Having said that, if we can improve recruitment and pull off two signings that actually perform better than expected (which hasn't happened in 10yrs), we will look like a different team. Years of mismanagement has caught up and there is no easy fix.
 
Players.

We lack players with the intensity and physicality to play in the PL.
Our bench is terrible, the drop-off in quality is massive and our first 11 isnt even up to it.
Players look exhausted (see point 1) and we have no players to replace them. In how many teams in the top 5 would Collyer get gametime? And I like the kid.

Add to that that we have error prone players like Onana.
We have too many highly paid players who don't offer anything to the team (anymore).

We have a midtable squad, full of older players that can't run, and young players that shouldn't be starting every week.

Years of mismanagement have completely caught up with us. There is no easy solution, and firing Amorim wouldn't help. We would revert to a basic 4-4-2, maybe get a few better results and start all over in the summer.
 
Both. I'd like to say we'd be seeing some improvement now if this system is really as good as it's supposed to be, but 3 at the back has just been a complete shambles so far and it's not looking like it's going to get any better.

I don't think Ruben will persist with it. It seems to be a game of "how do I squeeze the maximum number of awful footballers into this side" when we do play it. At least if we put a few midfielders in there some of them can play football.
 
Ten Hag played a formation that suited them and they were bad then too

We're deep into it. If you change the formation back into a former one then all the pressing patterns, playing patterns etc have to he taught again to players who are incapable of thinking independently.

We just need some changes in player personnel and maybe tiny tiny tweaks on positioning.
 
Players, but selection isn't helping. Lining up with five pure defenders and seeing no actual defensive benefit from it while completely hamstringing us going forward is madness.
 
The club is the problem.

It's rotten throughout. There is no hope whatsoever because any new manager/player/director/whatever gets infested with the same rot.

The only way to save it is to burn it all down and start over from scratch.
 
I'm surprised people think it's anything other than the players to be honest. We've been crap in other formations for a couple years.

Managers are very important, but it's still players who win you games.
 
Are we saying we don't have a team to create a chance against Brighton at home ?

Something is seriously wrong and it's not just the players.
 
Well the players have proven beyond doubt they’re the problem. That said, it’s difficult to imagine the club managing the squad overhaul that is necessary to allow Amorim to succeed. They really have to do it quickly, otherwise confidence in the manager will be eroded. Looks like they either can’t or won’t spend the money required. So difficult to see how Amorim can turn it round. Or anyone else for that matter.
 
No style of play that is anywhere near established (a problem that is existent for a long, long time) + low quality in some key areas (mostly ST, CM and I have to say GK).
 
Of those two options, the players. Obviously.

You can absolutely make the case that trying to change system mid-season is making things worse though. It would be odd if it didn't, really.

But the club already knew a rebuild was needed. And they knew Amorim plays the system he plays. So if you bring him in, you're accepting that extra short term pain for what you think will be long term gain with the squad you plan on building.

It's not like Amorim pretended it would be otherwise. He literally used the words "pain" and "suffering" when describing what was ahead.
 
Both.

So many players on their heels all the time, not moving with and without the ball and making stupid mistakes all around.

System is whatever but Amorim needs to recognise and quickly fix some player personnel issues. Sure they don't fit the system but they're also not given the best platform to perform too, short or long term. One must give. I don't mind one step back to go two steps forwards but it's currently one step back and then side step.
 
The players are beyond brutal , but playing 5 defensive minded players won’t improve our lack of creativity and lack of goals either.
 
Combination of both. There’s no way this set of players should be playing like relegation contenders.

Something needs to change, style/formation not sure, but an adjustment is needed.
 
Athletes
Look at Brighton today ..
Their right back, ledt back are fast, can run all day..
Their wingers who don't have fancy names .. keep running, pressing .. sprinting..
Their goalkeeper doesn't make howlers ..
3 in the last 6 games ..
 
It’s a bit of both, the players aren’t great but the formation is exposing them. We have 11 points in 11 PL games under Amorim, there is surely a more pragmatic way to play with the players that we have to get more points on the board.
 
Answer is a combination of all. Most likely common denominator is planless and bad recruiting over a long time. Lowest hanging fruit should be to increase the intensity in our play.

I'd tend to say that formation shouldn't be in this list to be honest. I am quite convinced that we would see the exact same issues with another formation as well.
 
Tactics.

Onana
De Ligt - Maguire -Yoro
Mazroui - Ugarte - Mainoo- Dalot

Amad - Bruno
Zirkzee
That is 8 defensive players in a first 11.

Is it surprising we cant score a goal? With who exactly? 3 players upfront? Who is creating the chances for them?
We are not bloody Sporting Lisbon trying to beat Man City in the CL - we are United a team that should be attacking the teams rather than playing 8 defensive players against teams like Brighton and Southampton :lol:

Ive got no problem with the formation but why hasnt he given a chance for Garnacho at wingback or even Antony? Why isnt Bruno Fernandes playing deeper with Ugarte so we can get an extra attacking winger in the front line.

Its enfuriating to watch having to see such defensive performances over and over again just for Amad to save our arse at the 80th minuite when Amorim gets scared and subs on all of his attacking players.
 
The players cannot carry performances over from game to game to get a winning run going. There just seems a complete lack of physical and mentally stamina about them.
 
It's the players.

Our athleticism level is shocking. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say it's the worst in the league. Maybe bottom 5 if we're being charitable.

Look at what we have.

A keeper who can't collect crosses. A backline with a serious lack of speed and in Licha a lack of height. FBs/WBs who can't cross. No left footed FB at all. Ugarte is the only one who can shove a player of the ball in midfield. Bruno wins a few due to his tenacity. Mainoo is often left behind for pace. Hojlund has speed but can't hold the ball up. Zirkzee can, but lacks speed. You look at Pedro or Isak to see what a proper PL striker looks like who can run, hold the ball and finish. And to top it off, our backups are even worse so our first 11 is often tired when playing 2 games in a row.

When you are starting games with such a disadvantage in speed and strength, you need to be much better technically. Every pass needs to be pinpoint, every challenge needs to be well timed. And that is an unreasonable expectation to have of a team. Until we have players with top level athleticism, we won't win consistently no matter who manages us.
 
It’s a bit of both, the players aren’t great but the formation is exposing them. We have 11 points in 11 PL games under Amorim, there is surely a more pragmatic way to play with the players that we have to get more points on the board.

That’s why Amorim wanted to come in the summer. What was Glazeos’ plan? The all round incompetence is still rampant
 
Reading the pre-match build ups, the obvious glaring weakness is the club listing the team in numerical order on twitter, rather than position, apart from the keeper. Given the importance placed on this by many fans, a simple tweek to the official announcement will surely cure everything.
 
Both.

4 of the players who started today were signed by INEOS. If we are saying those players are poor signings, then buckle up. It is not going to get better in the future. However, we also know there are some legitimate areas where we have poor players/player depth, LB, CM and in attack.

On the coaching side this tactic is doing absolutely nothing for the players. The wingbacks are clearly being told to stay back with the oppositons wingers. They aren't set up to give us an attacking advantage and it's just leaving us looking limp up top. The actual tactical setup is that of a hestiant/scared tactic.That's on Amorim. He is being outclassed tactically. For me, even though we beat Southampton, for a new manager to come in, get them to mirror our formation and then absolutely dominate us and play us off the park....there is something wrong there.
 
Players. We were shit playing 4231, we were shit playing 433, we were shit playing diamond, we were shit playing 523. The paper formation doesn't matter, our problem are the bad players that are a result of our horrible recruitment and squad building.

It's not just buying players that aren't good enough we also allow imbalances and weaknesses in vital parts of the team to fester for years.

We still haven't fixed the midfield. We have been playing without a left defender for the better part of two years now. We are happy to go into a season without a top quality striker.

Add to that the fact that mentality of our players seems to be weak across at least 50% of the team highlights another problem, we don't seem to factor in personality and mental stability of our players when bringing them in.

Oh and let's not forget that we can't improve players anymore. I used to hear the phrase: "We are Manchester United, we don't buy world class players, we make them" quite often. Now it's just "Manchester United, where managers and players come to burry their career."
 
Tactics.

Onana
De Ligt - Maguire -Yoro
Mazroui - Ugarte - Mainoo- Dalot

Amad - Bruno
Zirkzee
That is 8 defensive players in a first 11.

Is it surprising we cant score a goal? With who exactly? 3 players upfront? Who is creating the chances for them?
We are not bloody Sporting Lisbon trying to beat Man City in the CL - we are United a team that should be attacking the teams rather than playing 8 defensive players against teams like Brighton and Southampton :lol:

Ive got no problem with the formation but why hasnt he given a chance for Garnacho at wingback or even Antony? Why isnt Bruno Fernandes playing deeper with Ugarte so we can get an extra attacking winger in the front line.

Its enfuriating to watch having to see such defensive performances over and over again just for Amad to save our arse at the 80th minuite when Amorim gets scared and subs on all of his attacking players.
Not having a proper striker doesn't help either. You cannot just rely on Amad or Bruno getting a penalty.
 
Senior Management. Decision makers above the manager in charge of keeping/sacking EtH, sanctioning transfers, and prioritizing squad 'upgrades'. We're just a spectacularly poorly run club that wastes money on the pitch while accruing debt off it.
 
Garbage players, playing in a garbage system at a club being run by garbage owners.

The whole thing is a complete shitshow.
 
The players dont fit the system and changing systems middle of the season was suicidal. We have a poor management and board which has led to this situation. 19 days into the window and we cant get 2 players to improve this squad is another joke. A CF and LWB will improve us massively.
 
The players are clearly the biggest problem, the formation might not be suited to a lot of them but they’ve shown they don’t excel in any particular formation. We need yet another mass clear out, what a shambles!
 
Players. Onana clangers aside them lacking Premier League intensity and physicality are two main reasons why we lost today. Bringing in Premier League-proven players as part of our transfer strategy should ideally be part of our plans going forward.
 
It’s a bit of both, the players aren’t great but the formation is exposing them. We have 11 points in 11 PL games under Amorim, there is surely a more pragmatic way to play with the players that we have to get more points on the board.
80% the players. Amorim will not change his way or tactics. 4231 lowblock would get us more points than whatever it is Amorim is trying.