The league is bad, the league is good

I'm not having that. Everton in 11th place have Stones, Barkley, Lukaku and others playing week in week out. A quick look at Malaga's squad and they have Roque Santa Cruz back on loan and a starting centre back on loan from Derby.

The league I looked at was actually incorrect. real Betis are currently 11th and they have Ricky Van wolsvinkel on loan from Norwich and a Sunderland reject as their most played player in defence. 34 year old Rubin Castron leads the line. Torres, who is supposed to be a good talent, will leave the club soon. Everton managed to keep Baines and Stones despite interest from big clubs.
That is not a fair comparison. Everton's position is a false one. As I mentioned earlier, the top teams are very inconsistent and that is why the league has a very competitive look to it.

You cannot compare the teams of respective positions as early as December to justify any statement. Dortmund last year at 18th position at the half way stage were obviously better, man to man, than many top half teams. Would you consider that comparison to say Bundesliga is miles better than the PL. If you do those comparisons for the top teams, Leicester vs Barca would make it seem like we are a league full of pub teams.
 
No but in the last two seasons in playing four games against English clubs they've lost one more than they have in the Bundesliga this season.
They play their counterparts from the PL. They could easily lose a couple. They tonked Man City plenty when City won the PL. They would hammer most mid table teams in the PL.
 
That is not a fair comparison. Everton's position is a false one. As I mentioned earlier, the top teams are very inconsistent and that is why the league has a very competitive look to it.

You cannot compare the teams of respective positions as early as December to justify any statement. Dortmund last year at 18th position at the half way stage were obviously better, man to man, than many top half teams. Would you consider that comparison to say Bundesliga is miles better than the PL. If you do those comparisons for the top teams, Leicester vs Barca would make it seem like we are a league full of pub teams.

Yeah obviously. If you did it team for team throughout the prem, about 15/16 equivalent teams are better in the Prem I would say.
 
They play their counterparts from the PL. They could easily lose a couple. They tonked Man City plenty when City won the PL. They would hammer most mid table teams in the PL.

Let's say we replaced Chelsea with Bayern as they're the PL champions league side who haven't faced Bayern for the longest.

In their last six games against Man united, City and Arsenal Bayern have won 50% of their games. They'll probably drop points in three games across this Bundesliga season. I think it is safe to say they'd be top of the prem.. But they'd look a lot less dominant.
 
Yeah obviously. If you did it team for team throughout the prem, about 15/16 equivalent teams are better in the Prem I would say.
No they wouldn't. The comparison at this stage of the season makes no sense in the first place. Similarly our teams in Europa League have not been great which does not back your point. We were given an absolute durbbing by Bilbao only a few seasons back.
 
Let's say we replaced Chelsea with Bayern as they're the PL champions league side who haven't faced Bayern for the longest.

In their last six games against Man united, City and Arsenal Bayern have won 50% of their games. They'll probably drop points in three games across this Bundesliga season. I think it is safe to say they'd be top of the prem.. But they'd look a lot less dominant.
They have won 3, lost 2 and drawn 1. But if you increase that sample size to 8 then they have won 5 and lost just 2.
 
No they wouldn't. The comparison at this stage of the season makes no sense in the first place. Similarly our teams in Europa League have not been great which does not back your point. We were given an absolute durbbing by Bilbao only a few seasons back.


And what happened to the best players from that Bilbao team?
 
They have won 3, lost 2 and drawn 1. But if you increase that sample size to 8 then they have won 5 and lost just 2.

Yeah exactly. What I'm saying is that British clubs still are capable of beating and holding Bayern. I'd like to play them in the CL this year see how good we are.
 
Yeah exactly. What I'm saying is that British clubs still are capable of beating and holding Bayern. I'd like to play them in the CL this year see how good we are.
Yes the top PL clubs were also beating each other a few seasons earlier but the teams which dominated actually drubbed the mid table and lower teams consistently. Which is what Bayern or Barca would do to be running away with it.
 
They were picked up by other teams. Similar has happened to Liverpool and Spurs and Soton. What's your point?

Does similar happen to Spurs and Liverpool? If Barcelona or Real come calling, then yes. But Bilbao have had a massive sale each year since then.
 
Yes the top PL clubs were also beating each other a few seasons earlier but the teams which dominated actually drubbed the mid table and lower teams consistently. Which is what Bayern or Barca would do to be running away with it.
My point being if they've only won 50% of their last six games against British sides then they would perform pretty similarly to them in a.mucn tougher league.
 
Does similar happen to Spurs and Liverpool? If Barcelona or Real come calling, then yes. But Bilbao have had a massive sale each year since then.
Liverpool just lost Sterling to Man City.
 
My point being if they've only won 50% of their last six games against British sides then they would perform pretty similarly to them in a.mucn tougher league.
You are not getting the point. Yes the top teams in the PL might win a couple against the likes of Bayern or Barca, but the teams below would get an absolute hammering. The reason why City are not running away with it is because they are inconsistent, not because the likes of Stoke are better than them.
 
You are not getting the point. Yes the top teams in the PL might win a couple against the likes of Bayern or Barca, but the teams below would get an absolute hammering. The reason why City are not running away with it is because they are inconsistent, not because the likes of Stoke are better than them.

No but the teams like Stoke are better than the likes of Koln and thus are more likely to cause a team problems if they have an off day.
 
And went out and nabbed one of the Bundesliga's best players to replace him.
Atl Madrid lost a few and still are there or there abouts. So are the likes of Dortmund after losing many players.

Anyway you keep changing the point whenever it is proven wrong.
 
No but the teams like Stoke are better than the likes of Koln and thus are more likely to cause a team problems if they have an off day.
That is also the case in Bundesliga and La Liga. PL is not the only place where upseta happen. Case in point was Bayern's loss yesterday. However these results won't happen regularly with Bayern even if they were in the PL. They happen regularly because our top teams are nowhere near as good as they used to be. Which is the point I have been trying to make but unable to get it across to you.
 
Atl Madrid lost a few and still are there or there abouts. So are the likes of Dortmund after losing many players.

Anyway you keep changing the point whenever it is proven wrong.

We are having an evolving debate, I'm not changing my point I'm responding to you.

I am just not having a league where all the clubs apart from one (maybe two) are constantly losing their best players to the premier league is as good throughout as the Prem. United, City, Tottenham,Liverpool and Chelsea all signed players from the Bundelsliga this year and apart from United each player lost is a massive blow for the German side. Even smaller teams got raided by Stoke andLeicster. Fact is apart from Bayern and Dortmund teams like Stoke/Tottenham or Liverpool could sign anyone from the Bundesliga next year and they're not top four clubs.
 
That is also the case in Bundesliga and La Liga. PL is not the only place where upseta happen. Case in point was Bayern's loss yesterday. However these results won't happen regularly with Bayern even if they were in the PL. They happen regularly because our top teams are nowhere near as good as they used to be. Which is the point I have been trying to make but unable to get it across to you.

I get your point.

I don't agree with it.
 
We are having an evolving debate, I'm not changing my point I'm responding to you.

I am just not having a league where all the clubs apart from one (maybe two) are constantly losing their best players to the premier league is as good throughout as the Prem. United, City, Tottenham,Liverpool and Chelsea all signed players from the Bundelsliga this year and apart from United each player lost is a massive blow for the German side. Even smaller teams got raided by Stoke andLeicster. Fact is apart from Bayern and Dortmund teams like Stoke/Tottenham or Liverpool could sign anyone from the Bundesliga next year and they're not top four clubs.
Again, teams lose players to other teams because that is the nature of the beast. Bayern lost Reus to Real but that does not mean they are inferior to them. They are a better team than Real currently. Also, these teams which lose players are able to replace them successfully with talent from within or by buying shrewdly. So many times this has been proven. Despite losing players they have been competitive and do well in Europe.

The reason they don't do well in their own leagues is because the top teams are too good to be dropping silly points. You think someone like Leicester would top Barca or Bayern in any league?
 
A lot of people claiming there are a lot of poor sides in the other top European competitions which allow the likes of Barca and Bayern to run away at the top. These two sides will mop the floor with every team in our league.

This simply is not true.

In North American sports, which are typically more physical than football, there is an entire philosophy in football, hockey and basketball that exists that revolves around winning ugly. If you don't really understand what this means, I will try to explain.

You take a team that is highly technically talented and you probably can't compete with them if you play their game. So you don't play their game. You build your team around athletes, not necessarily the best sport specific technically gifted players, but guys who through pure physicality can compete. They can defend, they are organized, they are fast and strong. Then, you pull the other team into your world, where the game is about grinding rather than technique and your athletes can compete with theirs in a grinding encounter. You defend, you stay organized, you leverage your athletes and then you take your chances if and when they present themselves, but you don't stand in the middle of the ring and trade shots.

The entire strategy is to take the game, and turn it into a raw athletic competition as much as possible. You can't win the football match, but you might win the track and field match, if you get what I mean.

The teams you listed, wouldn't mop the floor with everyone. They'd struggle on occasion just like all the big clubs do. They'd get sucked into a track meet and run into teams that have better athletes.
 
Again, teams lose players to other teams because that is the nature of the beast. Bayern lost Reus to Real but that does not mean they are inferior to them. They are a better team than Real currently. Also, these teams which lose players are able to replace them successfully with talent from within or by buying shrewdly. So many times this has been proven. Despite losing players they have been competitive and do well in Europe.

The reason they don't do well in their own leagues is because the top teams are too good to be dropping silly points. You think someone like Leicester would top Barca or Bayern in any league?

No. I think Chelsea would top any league without real/barce and Bayern as well though.

Look the fact is these big teams play dross. Constantly. The bottom ten teams in both Spain and Germany are a joke. It's what happens when you don't share out the wealth, you end up with a weak league. And it's embarrassing that these teams can win so easily every week. It should set alarm bells ringing that for the long term future of these countries they need to sort it out. If a team in the premier league had Manucho, Bebe and a 30+ Year old swansea reject playing we'd laugh at them. The bottom half of la liga is where you play if the Premier League doesn't want you anymore or if you're not good enough.

Same with Germany. About ten teams lost one of their star players to the Premier League last year, hence our teams are all stronger and that league gets weaker.

I think fans want to hype up foreign leagues to seem more knowledgeable but they fail to appreciate what is under their nose. Stoke with Bojan, Shaqiri and Arnoutavic just tore city a new one (Joselu and Diouf on the bench) while BOURNEMOUTH just been Chelsea.
 
They play their counterparts from the PL. They could easily lose a couple. They tonked Man City plenty when City won the PL. They would hammer most mid table teams in the PL.

This literally means nothing. They are completely different situations.

When United or City or Chelsea or Arsenal play another big team, they actually stand in the middle of the ring and have at it. They are out there to win via playing better football. Beating City coming at you is completely different than beating someone who is trying not to lose, rather than trying to win.

A team looking to defend first, even at the mid table level, is going to be harder to break down than a team that has quality that is trying to beat you by playing through you. Especially when they are playing like you, only they are not as good.

Think of it like modern warfare and the rising importance of asymmetric warfare. Who can actually fight a conventional war with the United States? Scant few nations. Those nations that tried, would lose badly, and rapidly unless there was some massive mitigating circumstance.

Now take a nation that knows it is nowhere near that level and so they don't try to "play" with the US, rather they go asymmetric and try to win by avoiding the strength of the US. What happens then?

That is what has happened to world football in a very real sense. It has become asymmetric. The global powers of football play in a specific way, teams under Mourinho not included, they play attacking football. They aim to win the match by playing football. Most teams that are not these global juggernauts can't beat these juggernauts if they play in that manner. So they don't. They play to avoid the strengths of these teams. Arsenal and BM play, they play similarly in that they both play positive attacking football. BM is stronger, BM is typically going to win this encounter because both teams are looking to play the same way, in a positive manner. Similar strengths, similar play styles, BM is stronger, BM is typically going to win this.

Now take a mid table club, they are not going to try to play with Arsenal or BM. They can't match their strength so they don't try. Instead they play defensively, and here is where the PL is largely different from Spain, Italy and Germany. This sort of asymmetric mentality is more developed and is supported by greater financial means and an emphasis on supporting these systems with superior athletes. There is a much greater emphasis in English football on physicality and athletic players than anywhere else. These players, who may not be as technically gifted, thrive in this defensive system. The mentality isn't to create chances, it is to exploit mistakes. They make the attacking team break them down, by being fast, strong, organized and then if a chance is presented, they are fast, strong, organized and they can rapidly transition into an attack and take a chance before falling back into a defensive shell.

An inferior team playing in this manner, is often more difficult to beat than a slightly inferior team that tries to meet your strength head on.
 
It's competitive due to the lower clubs being better and top clubs not being truly elite among the world's best.
 
No. I think Chelsea would top any league without real/barce and Bayern as well though.

Look the fact is these big teams play dross. Constantly. The bottom ten teams in both Spain and Germany are a joke. It's what happens when you don't share out the wealth, you end up with a weak league. And it's embarrassing that these teams can win so easily every week. It should set alarm bells ringing that for the long term future of these countries they need to sort it out. If a team in the premier league had Manucho, Bebe and a 30+ Year old swansea reject playing we'd laugh at them. The bottom half of la liga is where you play if the Premier League doesn't want you anymore or if you're not good enough.

Same with Germany. About ten teams lost one of their star players to the Premier League last year, hence our teams are all stronger and that league gets weaker.

I think fans want to hype up foreign leagues to seem more knowledgeable but they fail to appreciate what is under their nose. Stoke with Bojan, Shaqiri and Arnoutavic just tore city a new one (Joselu and Diouf on the bench) while BOURNEMOUTH just been Chelsea.

They wouldn't top the french league for sure.
 
Frankly I don't think Real Madrid can score the same amount of goals that they do in the PL and they will concede more too regardless of Benitez's defensive tactics.
 
The bottom ten teams in both Spain and Germany are a joke. It's what happens when you don't share out the wealth, you end up with a weak league.
I don't mind the rest of your post but if you're talking about TV/prize money, it's very evenly split in Germany, as opposed to Spain.
 
This is a league where United under Fergie would win quite comfortably and everyone would say that it was just because the league is a poor standard.

No team in the league has both the quality and mentality. Arsenal were always the laughing stock where Wenger would talk up their mental strength before getting beaten convincingly in big games. They're still like that, as are City, but one will probably win the league this season.

Whether teams at the lower end of the Premier League are better than their equivalents in other leagues is debatable but clearly they are richer and can afford better players.
 
The TV money is beginning to take effect.Smaller clubs no longer need to sell and can attract decent players into the team. Think that is good for the league.
 
No. I think Chelsea would top any league without real/barce and Bayern as well though.

Look the fact is these big teams play dross. Constantly. The bottom ten teams in both Spain and Germany are a joke. It's what happens when you don't share out the wealth, you end up with a weak league. And it's embarrassing that these teams can win so easily every week. It should set alarm bells ringing that for the long term future of these countries they need to sort it out. If a team in the premier league had Manucho, Bebe and a 30+ Year old swansea reject playing we'd laugh at them. The bottom half of la liga is where you play if the Premier League doesn't want you anymore or if you're not good enough.

Same with Germany. About ten teams lost one of their star players to the Premier League last year, hence our teams are all stronger and that league gets weaker.

I think fans want to hype up foreign leagues to seem more knowledgeable but they fail to appreciate what is under their nose. Stoke with Bojan, Shaqiri and Arnoutavic just tore city a new one (Joselu and Diouf on the bench) while BOURNEMOUTH just been Chelsea.

You are incredibly deluded.
 
I think fans want to hype up foreign leagues to seem more knowledgeable but they fail to appreciate what is under their nose. Stoke with Bojan, Shaqiri and Arnoutavic just tore city a new one (Joselu and Diouf on the bench) while BOURNEMOUTH just been Chelsea.
The arguably best English team getting torn apart by Arnautovic is a sign of the strength of the Premier League now? Really? Oh boy, didn't know how deep the PL has fallen.
 
Some of the so called smaller sides have made some cracking signings, sides like Leicester, Stoke, Palace, Southampton etc. Top quality players are at these clubs and with that sort of quality comes a confidence that they can play on the big stages and when that's allied with the graft that these clubs generally show then you've got a closing of the gap.

Right now the PL must be the envy of Europe. It's the most exciting and watchable out there and despite all the problems and inconsistencies of the top lot by the end of the week we could still have all four sides in the knockout stages of the CL as well as still going strong in the EL.
 
Part of the problem in English football is the paucity of young top managers. I wrote already, after Liverpool smashed City, that the managers of the top clubs, e.g. Wenger, LVG, Pellegrini, probably even Mourinho (Real broke him, he isn't the same man) are dinosaurs. People saying that only a miracle could make Liverpool a league contender already this season are utterly wrong. Klopp could blow the dinosaurs away without any miracle working, just by being a top modern manager. United and the other top clubs have to find similar managers, the likes of Pep and Simeone. Otherwise, it won't be pretty, neither in the EPL nor in the CL.
 
This literally means nothing. They are completely different situations.

When United or City or Chelsea or Arsenal play another big team, they actually stand in the middle of the ring and have at it. They are out there to win via playing better football. Beating City coming at you is completely different than beating someone who is trying not to lose, rather than trying to win.

A team looking to defend first, even at the mid table level, is going to be harder to break down than a team that has quality that is trying to beat you by playing through you. Especially when they are playing like you, only they are not as good.

Think of it like modern warfare and the rising importance of asymmetric warfare. Who can actually fight a conventional war with the United States? Scant few nations. Those nations that tried, would lose badly, and rapidly unless there was some massive mitigating circumstance.

Now take a nation that knows it is nowhere near that level and so they don't try to "play" with the US, rather they go asymmetric and try to win by avoiding the strength of the US. What happens then?

That is what has happened to world football in a very real sense. It has become asymmetric. The global powers of football play in a specific way, teams under Mourinho not included, they play attacking football. They aim to win the match by playing football. Most teams that are not these global juggernauts can't beat these juggernauts if they play in that manner. So they don't. They play to avoid the strengths of these teams. Arsenal and BM play, they play similarly in that they both play positive attacking football. BM is stronger, BM is typically going to win this encounter because both teams are looking to play the same way, in a positive manner. Similar strengths, similar play styles, BM is stronger, BM is typically going to win this.

Now take a mid table club, they are not going to try to play with Arsenal or BM. They can't match their strength so they don't try. Instead they play defensively, and here is where the PL is largely different from Spain, Italy and Germany. This sort of asymmetric mentality is more developed and is supported by greater financial means and an emphasis on supporting these systems with superior athletes. There is a much greater emphasis in English football on physicality and athletic players than anywhere else. These players, who may not be as technically gifted, thrive in this defensive system. The mentality isn't to create chances, it is to exploit mistakes. They make the attacking team break them down, by being fast, strong, organized and then if a chance is presented, they are fast, strong, organized and they can rapidly transition into an attack and take a chance before falling back into a defensive shell.

An inferior team playing in this manner, is often more difficult to beat than a slightly inferior team that tries to meet your strength head on.
What exactly are you trying to point out in this post? Teams like Bayern face a lot of teams who set up to defend and yet they come out on top comfortably. Same went for the top teams from the PL in years gone by. Nowadays the top teams in the PL are poor and thus get picked up more regularly. That is the point I am making. It is this lack of one or two absolute top notch teams in the Premier League which is making it look far more competitive than it is. A Bayern or Barca would walk this league. Not necessarily by slaughtering the bigger teams but essentially by dismantling the rest. Something United and Chelsea teams from the last decade were brilliant at when they were the top dogs in Europe.