Today has been a good day for JM. He’s making moves for sure. Surely we can all see that we are capable signing a major world class player without getting our pants pulled down and grabbing a world class potential young player on a cheap deal. Also we can spot a free transfer bargain to patch up the squad. The full spectrum of recruitment. All else we really need to see is can he get the contracts under control and how much can we improve when it comes to selling and letting players go. I reckon we’ve finally got a footballing setup befitting the size of the club.
The John Murtough Era
- Thread starter Trex
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I'm not going to start overpraising, nothings been won or achieved yet. But the stick this bloke was randomly getting a few weeks ago was frankly laughable, by people simply clueless, but just wanting to get angry at someone and anyone.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as the old phrase goes. Lets judge JM once the transfer window has shut and see where we are. If we have 3 players in as a minimum and they all improve the team then the JM era has started with a success imo. If we get more and move on another couple of players; dont forget we will have lost 5 by August already, then he will have had an excellent start imo.
Not comfortable at all with Ten Hag picking transfer targets. If the transfers dont work out, he's going to be the fall guy.
I mean Murtough is the DOF, its literally his job. I dont buy the "ohh we fired scouts" excuse, its just so transparent. Maybe dont fire your scouts weeks before summer and then complain? Maybe do some additional planning in advance when you knew the season was over at November?
But to his credit, seems like negotiations are going well, we got a great deal for FdJ and Malacia.
I mean Murtough is the DOF, its literally his job. I dont buy the "ohh we fired scouts" excuse, its just so transparent. Maybe dont fire your scouts weeks before summer and then complain? Maybe do some additional planning in advance when you knew the season was over at November?
But to his credit, seems like negotiations are going well, we got a great deal for FdJ and Malacia.
I'd like to think that ETHs influence will wane as we build that recruitment team out. I think this Summer was always likely to be difficult because we've so many new faces in new roles. It'll take time to get to the point were we are thinking two or three windows ahead.
I thought the point of kinda "sacrificing" previous season, was that we could get a headstart on this season. I mean Murtough and Arnold have been at their current position for months now.
I would also like to believe the bolded. But two problems with that :
- Would ETH be okay with that? After his level of control this window?
- Isnt that kinda what happened with Ole and JM? Different reasons for sure, but that didnt work out well.
I see it differently. Look at the profile of players that we are targetting, they fit our needs, not just ETH's and there isn't a lot of affordable alternatives outside of these players which is why all of these players have been linked to clubs with similar ambitions. As for Ajax themselves, they are this summer what Monaco was a few years ago, it just happens that we got their manager.
I think it's more of will evolve rather than saying his influence will wane. The problem we had with this window is that the players we scouted are the ones we scouted for Ole. They weren't really targets with ETHs style in mind.
Going forward, ETH will probably work with the scouts in regards to defining what qualities he wants in a certain player, then those scouts go out and identify players with those qualities. Something similar should really already be in place.
Our biggest needs were probably DM, CM, RW and CF. Considering we lost Matic, Pogba, Cavani and MG11. Maybe even a RB since our options there are Dalot and AWB(
).So far we are signing De Jong(absolutely brilliant signing) who is a CM. But then we are targeting Eriksen(AM), Malacia(LB) and Martinez(CB). All good players for sure, players who will improve our squad(because our squad is shite), all with connections to Netherlands/Ajax, but I'm not sure they were the most pressing requirements.
We've seen a lot of very good players move to different clubs, and a lot of those players would have done well here, and we needed players in those positions as well. So I dont buy the "no value in the market" thing. I truly think we should have perhaps widened our net more, and apart from FDJ and maybe Antony, I'm not very convinced by the other targets. I have faith in ETH's coaching and his skills as a manager, but he didnt handle recruitment at Ajax. Pep and Klopp dont handle recruitment either. Seems like Murtough is doing well on the negotiation front, so props to him for that, but I'm not convinced yet of our strategy in the market. Let see.
So if ETH is sacked by the end of next season, we are again going to run into this problem?
Ideally its the job of the DOF to ensure this doesnt happen right? Everytime we change managers we yo yo between various styles, and that's why our recruitment is a mess. Its the job of the DOF to ensure there is smooth transition.
I hope next season, if not this one, JM actually takes charge of transfers alongside ETH, and runs things like how its run in other top clubs. With proper planning. So that we dont have to do a "rebuild" everytime we change managers.
John Moutough you silver-tongued devil
The previous ones weren’t really targets with Ole’s style in mind either. VDB? Sancho? It seems obvious to me that Ed Woodward’s relationship with agents and selling clubs was far more influential in determining our signings than the manager or scouts.
Should be but clearly isn’t. If the club can get its act together scouting-wise I have no doubt that it’ll happen as you say; EtH had no difficulty relying on Overmars at Ajax.
Our biggest needs were probably DM, CM, RW and CF. Considering we lost Matic, Pogba, Cavani and MG11. Maybe even a RB since our options there are Dalot and AWB(
So far we are signing De Jong(absolutely brilliant signing) who is a CM. But then we are targeting Eriksen(AM), Malacia(LB) and Martinez(CB). All good players for sure, players who will improve our squad(because our squad is shite), all with connections to Netherlands/Ajax, but I'm not sure they were the most pressing requirements.
We've seen a lot of very good players move to different clubs, and a lot of those players would have done well here, and we needed players in those positions as well. So I dont buy the "no value in the market" thing. I truly think we should have perhaps widened our net more, and apart from FDJ and maybe Antony, I'm not very convinced by the other targets. I have faith in ETH's coaching and his skills as a manager, but he didnt handle recruitment at Ajax. Pep and Klopp dont handle recruitment either. Seems like Murtough is doing well on the negotiation front, so props to him for that, but I'm not convinced yet of our strategy in the market. Let see.
You have no idea about how wide the net has been cast and it's not a question of no value in the market, but on the contrary that these are some of the value in the market. Take de Jong as an example, we have the opportunity to sign him because Barcelona are in trouble and we would have been interested regardless of who is our manager. It would be extremely weird for United and any similar club to have no interest in Lisandro Martinez, Gravenberch, Mazraoui, Timber or Antony.
Eriksen is a free and quality player, so again we have to be interested. We are allegedly interested in Gnabry who is also in an advantageous contract situation, we have been linked to Ndicka.
The strategy here is pretty clear, target good relatively young players, that are at a good fee or in contract situations that could lead to a discount.
Also it's worth keeping in mind that if the club followed EtH and didn't just give him a job without knowing him then they spent a lot of hours watching Ajax players which is bound to influence our dealings.
If you are really arguing that our transfer targets(the rumored ones with solid links from tier 1 sources like FdJ, Eriksen, Timber, Pau Torres, Martinez, Malacia, Antony, Nunez), havent been 80-90% those who have a history with Ajax/Netherlands, I dont really know what to say, because its blatantly disingenuous.
Everybody knows its the case, the question is whether it will work out, and I really hope it does.
Funny thing. Last week people were ready for some public lynching of Murtough and Arnold.
A week later, and we are apparently signing a few good players, and now it's "let's all celebrate mr DON Murtough". Crazy fan base..
A week later, and we are apparently signing a few good players, and now it's "let's all celebrate mr DON Murtough". Crazy fan base..
So potentially 4 signings coming in so far De Jong, Malacia, Eriksen and Martinez, which looks great on paper but we've had summers like this and the players we've signed have either been a massive disappointment or been more of a Darmian than an Evra. We need bodies at this point though so let's hope these signings all get done and they hit the ground running.
The DoF is now in place to ensure that the playing style has continuity and doesn’t jump from Lvg to Jose etc
as the other guy says our lists have had to be torn up and redone at very short notice for EtH.
That's not what I said. I said that these targets make sense and Ajax are in a similar situation to Monaco around 2017-2018. They have a large amount of the value signings.
I have the same concern. Nothing against the players ETH is pursuing, but the approach itself is one of the reasons we have a disjointed squad, because we never had a long term vision of how we want to play. Now we're pretty much going after players from the Dutch League that ETH is familiar with, and there's no way that's what Murtough and the scouts had planned from the beginning.
I get the feeling he is very determined not to make this his last day Fellaini window.
First impressions and all that.
First impressions and all that.
FDJ is a quality CM, any manager would want him.
Malacia is a young FB, full Netherlands International, and a cheap punt, so not a major risk if he flops.
But I think we can question the rationale of targeting Ajax players, especially if they are expensive, like Antony & Martinez, Ten Hag and Mortough should not only focus on Ajax/Dutch players.
We have to question the rationale in purchasing them if they are expensive, not targetting them and trying to find out if they are at a price that we like. Both Antony and Martinez are good players that fit a need, it would questionable to not ask Ajax questions about them.
I could understand the doubts, if we were targetting the likes of Haller, Blind or any of the older players but we aren't.
With Woodward gone, there’s more chance that the players we sign are actually a good fit for the manager’s style of play.
That said, however carefully targeted, some of the signings won’t work as well as others. As long as we don’t go crazy with their salaries we should be able to move the flops on though. Like other clubs do.
De Jong is clearly a risk as he’s going to have to be on massive money thanks to Barcelona doing a United when they signed him. In the unlikely (
) event he fails we’ll be stuck with him.It is logical that ETH goes for those players he knows and presumably believes they can do a job for him. Start with what you know then build on that. Murtough seems to back that play... so let's see !
I have a good feeling with the Murtough-Arnold leadership. This is from seeing the changes they have implemented in the backroom and from this window so far (not being rushed, very hush hush, not a scatter gun approach and working with the manager to identify the targets)
I mean isn't this exactly how it should be? Fairly sure there's a veto process etc anyway in case any of the other decision makers don't like the players.
Agree that with Woodward gone and Judge, we're more likely to be able to move players on that the manager doesn't think are up to it after a season or two. However, the previous regime only signed players the managers wanted, or the someone the scouts had recommended after looking at 800 other players in the same position, with of course the occasional 'media' signing like Ronaldo also.With Woodward gone, there’s more chance that the players we sign are actually a good fit for the manager’s style of play.
That said, however carefully targeted, some of the signings won’t work as well as others. As long as we don’t go crazy with their salaries we should be able to move the flops on though. Like other clubs do.
De Jong is clearly a risk as he’s going to have to be on massive money thanks to Barcelona doing a United when they signed him. In the unlikely (
The players we're currently signing fit a certain type of manager and style, if we do move Ten Hag on at some point I just hope they know who the next manager will be to get the best out of these players and the style they're looking to play.
Most of our squad issues were because the board backed the management too much. We can't go from a Ten Hag to a Conte otherwise we're completely fecked again in 5 years (hopefully Ten Hag is still here then though...)
Someone has to be accountable for the players the manager wants and has asked for.
Mourtough will be judged on how things work between managers. If he appoints Conte as our next manager and none of our new players fit a Conte style then he's the one that is accountable.
But we are not linked to players that are limited. There is no reason for any of them to not fit with Conte's style or any manager style.
You say that but Ten Hag wants certain players who he believes can play to his system. We shouldn't then appoint a counter attacking coach if he's fired just because they're a big name. Limited in ability and in mindset are two different things
Ten Hag doesn't have one system, he is himself a flexible manager. Ten Hag and United are targetting profiles that any team needs and that we currently don't have, none of them are limited to a particular system or tactical approach.
Right: I don’t want to stray too far off topic, but if that was the case they did a pretty wretched job of it. I really can’t see how Donny and Sancho would ever have fitted into a side managed by Ole, however much he might have wanted the latter. Finding a more talented Dan James would have made much more sense.
It seems that what the club has lacked has been someone who can sit down with the manager, understand what they’re looking for, suggest players that fit the profile and query the manager’s own suggestions if they don’t.
Bringing in a manager who’s the diametric opposite of the one that’s just been sacked has always been the United Way, alas. Certainly since the Docherty - Sexton - Atkinson era.
Yeah. Hard workers with a decent amount of technical skill and the ability to follow instructions should thrive under most “modern” managers.
Nope, most top clubs dont have the manager selecting all the transfer targets.
Antony and Martinez are good young players, which I think are excellent options to get for the right fee, so yes I agree that we should question the fee not thier quality.
But in general, I still think we need the recruitment team to present good options outside of Ten Hag's circle, options that would also fit into Ten Hag's style of play
I also think it's fair for Ten Hag to prefer options he is familiar with...
Most top clubs aren't Man United
I think that it's coincidental, a bit like Tottenham targetting Southampton players around 2014-2016. We signed the manager of the team that currently has the highest concentration of young and somewhat affordable talents, we'd be after the same players if Pochettino was the manager instead of ten Hag. And Netherlands are currently producing a good amount of talents and we have been linked with the better ones.
We have been linked to at least Pau Torres, Dembélé, Ndicka, Gnabry, Ekitike, Nunez, Tielemans and Raum. You can see that there is a pattern in terms of positions and the ones we are going after are either cheaper or better than the other options, the only one that should be priority above the Eredivisie/dutch player is Gnabry but maybe Bayern aren't keen on letting him go until they are sure that he isn't extending.
Hang on?
We've signed 4 players?
When did this happen?
Potentially, we could do many things, but in reality, we are a club which has not won a trophy for many years. And this despite being the club which has spent more money on players than any other, during the last decade or so.
Player like Gnabry will be coup, but probably too difficult to either convince Bayern or Gnabry himself.
Can't argue with the rest of your post there, my thoughts exactly
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