Monday, right?
The Impossible Draft
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Ah ignore me, I thought with the formations sent in it was today
A general question as to how to approach older "attacking" full-backs like Nilton Santos and Marzolini. Who do we think is definitely the first wing owning full-back to the play the game? I suspect it may be Facchetti. Whoever it is are there any journalists who reported on e.g. Facchetti and someone like Marzolini at club level? If they exist this may give us a better idea of what the journalist meant by attacking. I suspect the answer to my question is no but for those inclined, it may be worth investigating
The game is scheduled for tomorrow mate, just send it in advance so we can have earlier kick off if possible.
Mines in so start whenever is best for you mate. Can get it going after the CRO-DEN game if you wanted?
Ok will start within next hour...
Personally, Tommy Gemmell of Celtic was one of the earliest examples of a full back consistently supporting the attack that I encountered when watching old matches, so attacking full backs in something approaching the modern sense seem to have been around since the mid-late 60s at least.
Hey @Pat_Mustard, I've managed to get everything ready ahead of schedule if you wanted to start today?
Ended up spending a lot more time hanging around airports than originally planned - this definitely helps break the time up! Just about to take off now but could be ready in a couple of hours.
Ended up spending a lot more time hanging around airports than originally planned - this definitely helps break the time up! Just about to take off now but could be ready in a couple of hours.
Sorry mate, I've got absolutely feck all done yet, and won't have time to get anything ready for today.
Interesting. What I'd like to is whether the same journalists reported on Gemmell and some of the South American full-backs to see how they described them to see if there'a any difference. It would just allow us to compare footage of one player and the reports on another a little more easily
No worries - was just making sure you weren't waiting frustratedly!
Was looking for quotes on Cha Bum Kun and came across a pretty good interview from Matthaus not so long ago. One thing he mentioned really fascinated me - I'd never considered it in its totality.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/german-b...us-on-germanys-special-relationship-with-asia
In things like this it's not that difficult to judge talent, chemistry, tactical fit, but it is easy to overlook that mental aspect. It's kind of incredible that they faced up against the best player in the world, and arguably the best player of their generation, in each of these World Cup finals and kept them all remarkably quiet.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/german-b...us-on-germanys-special-relationship-with-asia
In things like this it's not that difficult to judge talent, chemistry, tactical fit, but it is easy to overlook that mental aspect. It's kind of incredible that they faced up against the best player in the world, and arguably the best player of their generation, in each of these World Cup finals and kept them all remarkably quiet.
I watched a very good show on the 1954 WC recently.
Apparently, the German coach Sepp Herberger had rested quite a few players in a couple of games to keep them fresher till the end (like in the group stage game against Hungary where they lost 8-3).
Don't think many remember his name now, but apparently it was considered a master strike back then.
Lots of nonsense there imo.
Only valid claim would be 1954.
Beckenbauer and Gerd Muller both were on top form in 1974 plus they had the genius of Breitner, Vogts, Overath etc. Holland had the flamboyance, but German team was individually as good, if not better. It's curious that they don't get recognized in Top WC sides discussions that often.
1990 was nowhere close to Maradona's year. In fact Matthaus and Brehme finished were in Top 3 Balon d'Or winners.
2014 - Messi might have been better, but Neuer was 3rd, Muller was 5th Lahm was 6th and Kroos was 9th in Balon d'Or. Again German team had more individual quality than any other team.
Not once does it say they didn't have good players though. Just stating that they beat the best player in the world each time. The fact would still be true if they beat Lithuania with Messi up front in the 2014 WC
Yeah. Cristiano is the best player but then beating Portugal is nothing great. That quote is more cosmetic and has less true value. Matthaus is Trump of football.
I'd rate that German team in 1972 as possibly among my top 3 international teams of all-time, so I don't disagree with the basic premise that Germany have always had talent. But neither he nor I were suggesting otherwise. The vast majority would agree that they were the best players in the world at that point in time. It's a bit of a no-brainer for Puskas and Cruyff and the consensus for Messi. The only debatable one is Maradona who certainly wasn't at the peak of his powers, but was just coming off the back of his 2nd title with Napoli at the time - their last ever title. And they kept them quiet each time on the biggest stage. I'm not sure why you'd dismiss such a feat given it's a constant assumption on here that the greats would make the difference in almost any game of substance.
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I don't see any other way of settling the draft games though, it just a different game than real football. Football is unpredictable game and any team with any great can lose but statistically you would always assume the greats to deliver more than 6 times, if the same game is played 10 times and that's what I consider before voting. I mean Burnley can and did beat our various great teams from Fergie era but if those two teams are in drafts I would always vote for Man United team which is better on paper. I also don't think you can consider Maradona & Cruyff being kept quiet when they lead their teams to Finals and only got beaten by almost equally stacked teams on the other side. Cruyff particularly was on fire that tournament, a far cry from Messi/Cristiano performance in the recent world cups.
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Yeah amazing performance from him.
Personally I think the evidence is stacked against the notion that an elite player succeeds 6 times out of 10 against an elite team. There aren't many examples of Germany vs. Holland '74, but I think they are indicative of the level of performance you could expect from an elite player against an elite marker. Likewise with Charlton against Beckenbauer in '66, Maradona against Matthaus in '90, Romario against Baresi in '94, etc. Even the very best players struggled to make an impact against the greatest teams. Brazil in 1970 or Benfica against Real in 1962 is considered the norm, when for example in the case of Benfica, they played another 3 European Cup finals and Eusébio scored just one goal. In a great team you might have one or two players on top of their game, really driving the team forward, and then another half a dozen just keeping it together - yet the way they're discussed here, almost all star attackers are giving the opposition defence hell and 1v1 it's no contest.
I don't think there's an exact science to it and I've no interest in changing how this thing generally works, but I do think it's not a very good representation of elite players vs. elite players. They generally cancel each other out.
It is very rare that a good defensive unit is given due credit in these drafts. If you have a great attack vs. a great defense the expectation is that the attack will always come out on top. I can see the logic in it as well. People love attacking players. They bring out the flair and joy in football so it is natural for them to be given preference.
Yeah I think that's a much cleaner description of my only real point. And I'm totally cool with it. I just think sometimes we slip into thinking it does bear some semblance to how games of this magnitude panned out, only recalling the truly special performances of individuals and smashing them altogether.
I think it's the other way. In a single knock out match, having a single superstar can make a difference, but in a series of 10 matches, without a team effort, the superstar antics would be vain. You can park a bus for 80 mins and still can expect a moment of brilliance, but that's it.
I'd say Maradona and Baggio are closest exceptions to the rule.
True that Greece 2004 would never win a Euro on Redcafe 
@Brwned same as above, I'd expect a star to be the difference in a draft match, but over a league season....not much.
Tactical Overview
The "Zona Mista" is an unconventional but thoroughly successful setup that Platini's Juventus played in the 80s, which was a modern update to the more well-known "Catenaccio" played by Inter in the 60s. Examples of Juventus playing it and how it was portrayed visually can be found in the 1985 and 1983 European Cup finals, and the 1984 Cup Winners Cup. More details on the specifics of the Juve setup can be found below:
The primary benefits of the system were that it was typically hard to break down, while getting the most out of its three key players: the immaculate libero, Scirea; the omnipresent playmaker, Platini; and the all-round attacking force of Boniek. It's a fluid setup, reliant on everyone in the team being comfortable in multiple areas of the pitch, reading the game quickly and moving in unison.
The most notable and possibly visually off-putting aspect of it is the lopsidedness of it - one wing back and one tucked in fullback, one wide midfielder and one withdrawn forward. Rather than having gaping holes all over the pitch, this simply meant that many of the team were multi-taskers - Tardelli might pull out to the vacant fullback position to cover a break, or Scirea might gallop up the wing. Bettega might fall back into a defensive position or he might act as a centreforward, while Boniek drifted into space.
Recognising the complexity of the system and the very specific requirements of each role, the team has been selected with all of those dimensions in mind e.g. favouring the "ultimate team man" Cha Bum-kun over the unstoppable maverick, Julinho. The "style of play" sections below provide plenty of detail on the role these players typically played, often with quotes are excerpts from articles expanding on that, and whose role they are occupying from the Juve team. A shorter overview can be found below:
Hapgood, as a pre-WWII fullback, loved that space Gentile played in between fullback and centre back where he could display his class on the ball but would always prioritise closing off any gaps. Moore loved having the freedom to defend proactively and sweep up anything that came in his large zone of play, while on the ball he was dictating the play from deep and moving up through that inside left channel. Amoros was a true dynamo playing alongside Platini in a similarly lopsided team with a narrow midfield, never disregarding his defensive duties but happily being a primary source of width and urgency in attack.
Kanté much like Bonini could do so much more than play as a holding midfielder, but as he's gained experience he has grown to excel there and his energy will be required all over the pitch. Coluna was the midfield general for club and country and relished the all-action role. Mazzola much like Platini was a formidable goal threat from midfield but above all else wanted to be involved in all phases of play, providing the impetus for the team driving forward. Cha Bum Kun played right across the frontline and was recognised by Lothar Matthaus among others as being the ultimate team player, offering that direct threat without sacrificing balance and energy much like Bettega.
Meazza much like Boniek played right across the attack and excelled at driving straight at opposition defences with mazy dribbles, incisive passing and a direct goal threat. Weah puts a different spin on the Paolo Rossi role, taking advantage of the abundance of goal threat around him to play the role of a complete #9, a focal point in the attack stretching the defence every which way.
Kanté much like Bonini could do so much more than play as a holding midfielder, but as he's gained experience he has grown to excel there and his energy will be required all over the pitch. Coluna was the midfield general for club and country and relished the all-action role. Mazzola much like Platini was a formidable goal threat from midfield but above all else wanted to be involved in all phases of play, providing the impetus for the team driving forward. Cha Bum Kun played right across the frontline and was recognised by Lothar Matthaus among others as being the ultimate team player, offering that direct threat without sacrificing balance and energy much like Bettega.
Meazza much like Boniek played right across the attack and excelled at driving straight at opposition defences with mazy dribbles, incisive passing and a direct goal threat. Weah puts a different spin on the Paolo Rossi role, taking advantage of the abundance of goal threat around him to play the role of a complete #9, a focal point in the attack stretching the defence every which way.
Ultimately the system is designed with no opponent in mind. It's built to be flexible and fluid enough to deal with any number of scenarios, with genuinely complete footballers in almost every position, while giving the truly elite players in each zone the freedom and responsibility to work their magic.
Antonio Carbajal
Conservative, calm, no-nonsense goalkeeper with great reflexes.
SourceUPI said:
Eddie Hapgood
A virtual ever-present (and eventual captain) in one of the most dominant teams in English football: Chapman's Arsenal. They were the first English team to win 4 league titles in a 5-year span: the only teams to repeat that feat were Liverpool in the 80s and United in the 90s and 00s. Also captained England during a particularly acrimonious period, summed up by two games: "The Battle of Highbury" and the game against Germany when England were forced to give a Nazi salute. At the Battle of Highbury they beat Italy just a few months after they'd won the World Cup, underlining the quality of that England side - a side made up of 7 Arsenal players, underlining the dominance of that Arsenal team not only domestically but internationally.
In Jeff Harris' book, "Arsenal Who's Who", he describes him as being technically exceptional, elegant, calm and with great anticipation. Arsenal's assistant manager Bob Wall describes him as setting the highest possible standard in technical skill. Described in the Oxford Biography as having exceptional speed and outstanding heading, allied with his outstanding positioning, anticipation and timing of tackles, and setting the standard for "footballing fullbacks" thereafter. Remembered by many as being one of the few players that could contain the great Stanley Matthews, most notably in a charity game during WWII between Arsenal and an RAF XI, when Matthews was so subdued that Hapgood drew boos from the crowd for preventing them from seeing their hero dazzle with some magic. Initially he played as one of the back 2 in a 235 formation, he established himself as a legend of the game as a left full back in Chapman's "revolutionary" 325 and is at home in this inside-left position, capable of matching up one on one vs. Stanley Matthews or tucking in and acting as a third centre back. Ideal for the Gentile role of half centre back, half full back - pure defender.
Stanley Matthews said:
Jeff Harris said:
Tom Whittaker said:
Bob Wall said:
All above quotes from here
Bobby Moore
In the space of three years he lifted three major trophies at Wembley: the FA Cup in 1964, the European Cup Winner's Cup in 1965, and the World Cup in 1966. Was the youngest player to be named the best player in England in 1964, came 2nd in the Ballon d'Or in 1970. Throughout his peak was not only an immaculate defender but the heartbeat of his team for club and country, most easily summed up by the fact he made the most passes in the 1966 World Cup final, despite playing on the same pitch as Beckenbauer, Charlton, Overath etc. Amongst those passes were two assists for Geoff Hurst.
A truly remarkable player best described by Jock Stein as the player who "knows what's happening 20 minutes before everyone else". Superb anticipation, exceptional positioning and wonderful timing made him one of the most difficult defenders to beat one-on-one - even George Best admits he struggled! He was the constant outball for club and country, continuously stepping into midfield to drive the game forward with crisp, clever passing and the occasional burst forward. With Hapgood happily tucking in alongside him, Moore has licence to burst forward as he sees fit - dictating the game from the back as he always did. He slips into the Scirea role like a glove.
Luis Pereira
Won league titles in Brazil and Spain, most notably winning the league title with Atletico in the last game of the season, finishing just above a Barcelona team with Cruyff, Neeskens and co.
A "modern" Brazilian centre back in the mould of Lúcio, he was aggressive, athletic and simply loved defending. A classic stopper very much at home alongside Bobby Moore, very comfortable occupying the Brio role.
(Tumbleweed...)
Manuel Amoros
Reached the semi-finals of the 1982 and 1986 World Cups with France, and sandwiched in between he won the 1984 Euros in the most dominant team in its history. Named the best young player in the 1982 World Cup. Named the 2nd best player in Europe in 1986, behind only Maradona. Won the league title 4 times in 5 years, first with Monaco in 1988 and then with Marseille in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
Across his career he played in either fullback position, midfield and even forward - perhaps the best example of his very well-rounded skillset. Loved going forward but as with any great fullback of his era, he took his defensive responsibilities very seriously. Used to playing as the main source of width playing in France's Carré Magique, best-known for its diamond in midfield. Here he'll be given responsibility to drive attacks, but his responsibility first and foremost is supporting a rock-solid defence - Antonio Cabrini would struggle to find a closer replacement.
(Tumbleweed...)
N'Golo Kanté
Finished 8th in the 2017 Ballon d'Or rankings, the highest finish for any defensive midfielder this century - higher than Vieira, Keane, Redondo, Gattuso, Makelele, Busquets, Alonso etc. Won back-to-back titles with Leicester and Chelsea in his first season at each club. Named the best player in the league in 2017, and the best player at Chelsea in 2017 and 2018 - first by the fans, then by the players.
Excelled as an all-action box-to-box midfeilder at club level and has gradually established himself as a top class holding midfielder for the national team. He'll do what he does: break-up attacks endlessly, launch counter-attacks and energise the entire team. Playing the Bonini role of "Platini's lungs", Kanté slots in perfectly.
Valentino Mazzola
The captain of Il Grande Torino, a team that dominated Serie A in the 40s, winning 5 titles in a row. Prior to joining Torino he played for Venezia, leading them to their only trophy in their history - the 1942 Coppa Italia. In the same season they finished 3rd in the league, just one point behind Torino. The following season Mazzola swapped sides, Venezia were relegated and Torino won the first of 5 consecutive titles. Was top scorer in one of those title wins, but he was so much more than a goalscorer - he was a complete player. Considered by World Cup winning coach Enzo Bearzot as the greatest Italian player of all time.
A remarkably multi-talented player and a born winner, so much so that when called upon to play in between the sticks against Genoa after the keeper was sent off, he kept a clean sheet and held onto the win. Two-footed, exceptional passing, formidable dribbling, clinical finishing, great heading and wonderful reading of the game, to say he was a handful on and off the ball is an understatement. On top of his supreme technical skill he was a charismatic leader, recognised by team-mates at the time and by World Cup-winning managers years later as a player who could carry the team and inspire others through sheer force of will. Here he'll be the team's main playmaker while being the main source of goals from midfield, and he'll relish both responsibilities as always.
Mario Coluna
The midfield general for the greatest Portugese team of all-time, winning 10 league titles, 4 Portugese cups and 2 European Cups. The first team to win the European Cup after di Stéfano's Madrid, they underlined their quality by winning back-to-back European Cups against Barcelona and Madrid, and reached a further 3 finals during the 60s. While Eusébio helped propel them to legendary status from 1962 onwards, he hadn't broken into the team by the time they won their first European Cup, where Coluna was the undisputed star of the team and a decisive scorer on the day. Also a key cog and the captain of the Portugal team that finished 3rd in the 1966 World Cup, being named in the team of the tournament.
Excelled as a cerebral inside forward, a cultured midfield playmaker and a deep-lying midfield general across his career, owing to his varied skillset and top class reading of the game. Combined with his impeccable all-round technique, he was a very powerful runner with a rocket strike, a fearless leader, and he never failed to put in the hard yards. In the Tardelli role he's responsible for doing a bit of everything - a role he excelled at in 1966, leading Portugal to their best performance in World Cup history.
Cha Bum-kun
Named the greatest Asian footballer ever, and the 60th best player in world history. Won two UEFA Cups and a German cup, scoring in a final of each. After beating Matthaus' Monchengladbach team in the 1980 final, the German legend called Cha the best attacker in the world. Years later he described Cha as a complete attacker and the face of Eintracht Frankfurt at the time.
Quick, direct, powerful runner, comfortable across the frontline, a potent creator and goalscorer, and, as Lothar Matthaus said, "the utlimate team man". Primarily a centre forward but very comfortable out wide, he slips into the Bettega role with ease - drifting across the pitch, running endlessly and providing a more direct goal threat when needed.
Giuseppe Meazza
Named the 21st best player in football history by IFFHS, and the best player of the pre-war era. Won conseuctive World Cups with Italy, being named the best player of the tournament in 1934 and leading the team to a second as captain in 1938 - one of only three Italians to appear in both tournaments. Named the 4th greatest player in World Cup history, At club level he won 3 league titles and an Italian Cup. Finished top scorer on 3 occasions and scored 242 goals in 365 games for Internazionale.
His supremacy is perhaps best summed up by the fact he's one of the few players in football history that has multiple signature goals - not tricks, but goals! Most known for his penchant to not only dribble past keepers and roll it into an empty net, Brazilian Ronaldo style, but to toy with the keeper in the prcoess - known simply as a goal "alla Meazza". He's also known for "La Foglia Morta", the dead leaf, making him an early pioneer of the curling, dipping free kick. And he had some training ground stories that would floor even Paul Scholes, revolving around an almost supernatural knack for overhead kicks. Alongside his remarkable goalscoring ability, he was also nicknamed "Il Genio" in part because of his boundless creativity. A complete forward who would undoubtedly revel in Boniek's role of probing here, there and everywhere, sprinkling magic as he goes, while providing an added goal threat (300 career goals for Meazza vs. 100 for Boniek).
George Weah
Named the African player of the century. Won the Ballon d'Or, FIFA WPOTY and African POTY in 1995 - the only player to win this hat trick of awards. Named in the FIFA World XI for three years in a row after the Ballon d'Or. Won league titles in Liberia, France and Italy, as well as domestic cups in France and England. And of course he scored that iconic goal against Verona.
Perfectly summed up in FIFA's bio: "Quick, skilful and boasting a powerful physique, fierce shooting power and deadly finishing skills, in his pomp Liberia's 'Mr George' was rightly considered one of the giants of the game." An all-round centre forward with a remarkable combination of skills, allowing him to score goals from any number of positions - including solo dribbles starting in his own box! Playing alongside a supreme goalscorer in Meazza rather than Boniek, he needn't be the pure finisher that Rossi was - instead he's the focal point of all attacks, holding the ball up, stretching the defence and scoring the occasional worldie.
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Right ! as it should be. There is no way in drafts I think to accommodate for form, luck, external motivation etc which matters a lot in real football. I think the closest we got was with FM draft which has some randomizations thrown in.True that Greece 2004 would never win a Euro on Redcafe
Yeah thats not the point I was making, in the example Ecstatic mentioned if played 10 times I would expect Portugal to win 6-7 times at least in Euro 2004 final. Mostly because they had a better team on paper.
It'd be interesting if you can come up with a draft format that somehow randomize actual game outcome instead of drafting.
Stuck working overtime right now, so probably won’t get anything together in the near future. If someone’s able to throw a formation together for me, we can at least have something to to get the match started so no one is waiting for me
Pm me your thoughts in a few words. I'll set it up.
We can wait, no problems
Hey sorry, been terribly caught up with work. I can possibly knock something out by today or tomorrow latest if that is fine.
Sure - haven't done my own write-up yet, but can throw something together later tonight if that sounds like a plan.
Got something sent in now so I’m good whenever. Cheers!
Sent to @Edgar Allan Pillow
Thursday. I'll send my write up tomorrow. @2mufc0
How we looking @Pat_Mustard?