The Impossible Draft - SF: Gio vs idmanager

[Ecstatic]

Not sure why I'm responding to this deliberate wind up but please tell me where I said Kubala was a winger.

Kubala is playing on the right though (as he regularly did) and he's therefore in the same nominal position as Matthews - please tell me how comparing the two is an odd comparison.

Absolutely nothing odd with mentioning the goalscoring statistics of these two players.

Kubala hasn't the stats of a pure winger but my opinion is mainly based on the 2-3 videos I've watched like this one:

 

[idmanager]

Well played @idmanager. Difficult team to argue against with it sporting a number of personal favourites in Zebec, Forster, Davids, Matthews and Spencer.

Thanks mate. Was a really close and good game.

Was exciting drawing you lads as I usually look forward to your and @Theon 's views on my games.

 

[Ecstatic]

Just a bit on Monti as there were a couple of posts questioning his use here. I quite like how Idmanager has paired them there. He's obviously got serious World Cup winning pedigree and can positionally anchor the midfield while Davids gets balls deep in hounding the opposition. Any four-man midfield always has somebody who stays behind the ball and it also gives Idm some resistance in case of someone like Zidane playing inbetween the lines.

I think Luis Monti is selected in these drafts because there are no videos. I'm sure a lot of players of similar profile are much more stronger like Deschamps, Kanté or anybody else.

If I re-read all the quotations about Gerrard, I would believe the latter has invented football.

 

[Theon]

Thanks mate. Was a really close and good game.

Was exciting drawing you lads as I usually look forward to your and @Theon 's views on my games.

Well played mate, best of luck in the final. Defence is outstanding and I like the clear theme you have in attack.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

One is a second striker and the other is an offensive midfielder. Bergkamp would regularly be the most advanced player for Arsenal, but you would never get that with Zidane.

This isn't accurate at all. From 2000-2006 Bergkamp was almost never the most advanced player at Arsenal, with Henry, Pires and Ljungberg usually more advanced. I just watched some of Zidane in his two CL losses for Juve and Zidane was actually more advanced than everyone but the two strikers on many plays.

I already posted Zonal Marking source where Michael Cox described the formation as "4231 in possession" and even as an early example of "strikerless" and Bergkamp is well known to be a prototype of the no.10 in modern 4231. You trying to pigeonhole him as "second striker" is just completely inaccurate reductionism to try to negate a completely valid point.

 

[Theon]

This isn't accurate at all. From 2000-2006 Bergkamp was almost never the most advanced player at Arsenal, with Henry, Pires and Ljungberg usually more advanced. I just watched some of Zidane in his two CL losses for Juve and Zidane was actually more advanced than everyone but the two strikers on many plays.

I already posted Zonal Marking source where Michael Cox described the formation as "4231 in possession" and even as an early example of "strikerless" and Bergkamp is well known to be a prototype of the no.10 in modern 4231. You trying to pigeonhole him as "second striker" is just completely inaccurate reductionism to try to negate a completely valid point.

The video I posted was from 2005 and shows Bergkamp as the most advanced player multiple times in the match.

Erm, yeah I can completely get on board with Zidane often being “more advanced than everyone but the two strikers on many plays.” That doesn’t really help your point though as its kind of the thrust of what I’ve said - Zidane would play behind two strikers as an offensive midfielder whereas Bergkamp was often part of a front two.

Yes I saw the zonal marking article and I reposted it with a comparison zonal marking article around Zidane - which shows the distinction quite well imo (Zidane being deeper). I don’t think Bergkamp is a prototype number #10 in a 4-2-3-1 at all to be honest. And there’s an article on the 06-09 United team which is also described as being strikerless with forwards who dropped deep, that also doesn’t make them offensive midfielders either.

Anyway I think we’ll just agree to disagree as the games over anyway and we obviously have different conceptions of those two as players. Zidane for me was an entirely different player and played far deeper on average than Bergkamp, whilst being the definitive link between defence and attack. I’m not going to change my mind about as I think it’s pretty clear cut.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think Luis Monti is selected in these drafts because there are no videos. I'm sure a lot of players of similar profile are much more stronger like Deschamps, Kanté or anybody else.

If I re-read all the quotations about Gerrard, I would believe the latter has invented football.

I simply don't have words to reply.

Monti's pedigree has even well documented. You'll find YouTube clips showing Djemba as Pele. Judging purely by videos or lack of is just so wrong.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

The video I posted was from 2005 and shows Bergkamp as the most advanced player multiple times in the match.

Erm, yeah I can completely get on board with Zidane often being “more advanced than everyone but the two strikers on many plays.” That doesn’t really help your point though as its kind of the thrust of what I’ve said - Zidane would play behind two strikers as an offensive midfielder whereas Bergkamp was often part of a front two.

Yes I saw the zonal marking article and I reposted it with a comparison zonal marking article around Zidane - which shows the distinction quite well imo (Zidane being deeper). I don’t think Bergkamp is a prototype number #10 in a 4-2-3-1 at all to be honest. And there’s an article on the 06-09 United team which is also described as being strikerless with forwards who dropped deep, that also doesn’t make them offensive midfielders either.

Anyway I think we’ll just agree to disagree as the games over anyway and we obviously have different conceptions of those two as players. Zidane for me was an entirely different player and played far deeper on average than Bergkamp, whilst being the definitive link between defence and attack. I’m not going to change my mind about as I think it’s pretty clear cut.

Yes and Bergkamp regularly had three players in front of him (Henry, Ljungberg and Pires). 3>2
Also Juventus and France sat much deeper as a team tactic than Arsenal during Bergkamp's late peak.
As I already mentioned, its not like Zidane was a CM, he was pure offensive midfielder who regular sat high up the pitch and slacked off defensively as shown in his two CL losses at Juve.

BTW how much Bergkamp have you actually watched for you to be so arrogant about not changing your mind?
I can only imagine the posts I would have received if I had your level of arrogance towards lecturing United fans on players you watched every week

 

[Theon]

BTW how much Bergkamp have you actually watched for you to be so arrogant about not changing your mind?
I can only imagine the posts I would have received if I had your level of arrogance towards lecturing United fans on players you watched every week

No one tried to lecture you - all we said is that Zidane would contribute more to the midfield than Bergkamp and then you disagreed and it hasn't been let go. I don't really mind what you think, I've said twice to leave this discussion and I have no interest in getting you to change your mind.

If you think Bergkamp and Zidane played the same position then fair enough, I don't think they did and I think it's clear cut - as an example here's Bergkamp in a list of second strikers here and Zidane in a list of attacking midfielders here. That to me is how I would categorise them and I won't change that view as it accords fully to what I remember.

The fact you think its arrogant to stick to that opinion just because you say otherwise is mental to be honest. I watched Zidane and Bergkamp for over a decade and I should change my perception of them as players just because you say so?

Anyway I really don't want to continue the discussion as I think it's been more than exhausted so lets agree to disagree.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

No one tried to lecture you - all we said is that Zidane would contribute more to the midfield than Bergkamp and then you disagreed and it hasn't been let go. I don't really mind what you think, I've said twice to leave this discussion and I have no interest in getting you to change your mind.

If you think Bergkamp and Zidane played the same position then fair enough, I don't think they did and I think it's clear cut - as an example here's Bergkamp in a list of second strikers here and Zidane in a list of attacking midfielders here. That to me is how I would categorise them and I won't change that view as it accords fully to what I remember.

The fact you think its arrogant to stick to that opinion just because you say otherwise is mental to be honest. I watched Zidane and Bergkamp for over a decade and I should change my perception of them as players just because you say so?

Anyway I really don't want to continue the discussion as I think it's been more than exhausted so lets agree to disagree.

This is the third time you made this misrepresentation. It is arrogant and it is tiresome. I never said they played the same position. I said that Bergkamp as a no.10 in idm tactic and Zidane as AMC in your tactic does not equal a 3v2 numerical advantage for you as you claimed. Bergkamp did drop deep and was the metronome controlling play for Arsenal. That doesn't mean "he played the same position as Zidane" which would be impossible because their teams used very different tactics in the first place. You keep misrepresenting the nuanced opinion I tried to put forth reducing it into these pigeonhole labels. Its like you haven't even tried to understand what I was saying.

How many Bergkamp matches do you reckon you watched every year between 1995 and 2006 on average?

 

[Ecstatic]

I simply don't have words to reply.

Monti's pedigree has even well documented. You'll find YouTube clips showing Djemba as Pele. Judging purely by videos or lack of is just so wrong.

(1) Two years ago, I picked him in 2 consecutive drafts so I know his story, the story of one of the greatest defensive midfielders.
(2) I can't blame anyone to take him, especially me who took Lazzatti in this draft, which was a boring choice given the limited information in English
(3) On the one hand the lack of video and the label '2 times WC winner' contribute to glorify the player, on the other hand his reputation didn't come by chance.