The Impossible Draft R1 - Skizzo vs Sjor/Jim Beam

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

........................................... TEAM SKIZZO ..................................................................................... TEAM BEPO/BEAM ........................................



TEAM SKIZZO

Formation: 4-2-3-1(lopsided)

Defensive line: Normal

GK: Vladimir Beara - complete keeper one of the best of the 50's
LB: Vasyl Rats - capable of tucking in and helping the midfield, whilst also being actively involved in the attacking phase
CB/Libero: Matthias Sammer - Ballon D'or winner and leader of the defence
CB: Paul McGrath - One of the most talented central backs in the game and perfect foil for Sammer.
RB: Carlos Alberto Torres - the world cup captain, renown for his offensive work would stretch the right flank and also cover the right back position in defence.
DM: Antonio Rattin - one of Boca's legends. Uncompromising defensive midfielder, who will protect the back four and stay back when/if Sammer surges forward.
CM/B2B: Arthuro Vidal - in his favorite box to box role. One of the outstanding modern day midfielders with enormous engine
AM/Playmaker: Socrates - a side build around him, he'll occupy the #10 position spraying passes and running the game.
LW: Alan Morton - outside left known for his dazzling wing play and skills
AMR/RW: Jose Manuel Moreno - inside right he'll operate in a free role and combine with Carlos Alberto on the right wing.
ST: Ruud van Nistelrooy - classic #9, one of United and football legends, he'll get plenty of creativity from Moreno, Socrates and Morton.

Defence: Sturdy and complimentary unit at the back, marshaled by Sammer.
Midfield: classic DM/B2B/AM setup with Moreno actively participating in the midfield battle and operating in his favorite inside right zone, whilst Rattin will protect the back four when Sammer overloads the midfield.
Attack: Morton as outside left will stretch the opposition and Socrates/Moreno would look for Ruud in the box, exploiting his movement and positional skills. Ruud in his favorite role inside the box and finishing chances.

Primed for most of the damage to be done by the three playing behind Ruud. The interplay and link up would focus on getting the defense moved around to find space for RVN in the box, with both wide players as secondary scoring threats.

Rattin and Vidal would look to shut down the midfield areas on defense, and get the ball forward quickly, or to an overlapping full back.

Sammer and Mcgrath will be the two central defenders. Both being tough tackling, no nonsense kinds of players, with Sammer looking to step up into the DM areas at times to snuff out danger when it may arise, if necessary.

TEAM BEPO/BEAM

Tactics
Team that is in the same time comfortable in both phases, if they need to defend no problem you have a team full of grafters and fighters, if you need to play they are artists with ball in their feet so we have a team that will do what is necessary at the specific moment. General idea is to sit a bit deeper, draw opponent to us and then play a quick and direct football, use every chance to counter with a lot of pace and power combined with skill.

Defence
In goal we Amadeo Carrizo who is considered a pioneer of the position, helping to innovate techniques and strategies for goalkeepers. the IFFHS ranked Carrizo as the best South American keeper of the 20th century in 1999. Won 5 Championship trophies in 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956 and 1957. He also established two records for his time: official matches in the Argentine First Division(513) and consecutive matches without conceding any goals(8).
In front of him we have a pair of Chumpitaz and Tony Adams. Chumpitaz who is considered one of the best South American defenders of all time and one of the Premier League legends in Tony Adams, famous Arsenal captain that on paper looks like a perfect tactical fit for Chumpitaz as one of the most aerially dominant defenders in history of Premier League and england. Left of Chumpitaz is Filipe Luis, key member of comfortably the best defensive unit in modern football. He is against Moreno and Filipe Luis is pretty much dealing his whole career with players of similar ilk regarding positioning and movement. Next to Adams is Berti Vogts, german legend and one of the best right-backs of all time.

Midfield
As security behind Sir Bobby and Schuster we have Marcos Senna. Alpha and omega of the mighty yellow submarine, team that was a hipster favorite long before BVB. Spanish player of the year in 08 after being a key player in their Euro success where he was also awarded with a place in Team of the Tournament but he was far from a one season wonder. He played on a similar level for almost a decade and who knows, maybe the Spain dominance would have started before the 06 if he got the chance earlier.

Spoiler: vs Barcelona against the likes of Ronaldinho, Xavi, Deco etc.

Spoiler: vs Inter Milan QF against the likes of Veron, Cambiasso, Recoba etc.

https://sendvid.com/xt1yi2vd

In front of him we have 2 grafters that are first and foremost 2 brilliant footballers. On the left we have the best player on the pitch in Sir Bobby Charlton. Should enjoy life in this setup as he has everything he needs to be at his absolute best. Will have full freedom to drift wide left as he likes, has selfless attackers that will create space for him with their movement and that will constantly be on the move so he will have a lot of passing options and on the other hand he is very protected defensive wise, not that he need protection though but it cant hurt.
Next to him is Bernd Schuster. Pretty much everything you want from your midfielder. Great on the ball, great of the ball, works harder then anyone. Can create something out of nothing, good goal threat. Pretty much the perfect midfielder. Same as Bobby, will have a lot of freedom to drift right and move up because all three guys would be at home playing in a midfield two and here they have that extra bit of protection, not even mentioning 2 lunatics up front that are pretty much like 2 extra defenders.


Attack
If i had to choose to play a game with our front three or go on a night out im not sure what would i choose, tbf i know but the answer is not good for the narrative. All 3 of them are absolutely mental in their own way. On the left is Balon d'Or winner from 94 - Hristo Stoichkov. Offers a lot defensive wise and offensive wise he is an absolute beast, they once said that you need a pistol to stop him and tbf that wasnt that far from the truth. Pace, power, skill, will to win.....all that Hristo had in abundance. Can create something out of nothing but will also make those final third runs all day and with the quality of his teammates they should find him more often then not.
On the right is the legend Oreste Omar Corbatta, guy that was considered argentinian best right winger of all time before little Leo joined the scene. From what we read he was a fantastic dribbler and creator but he also has a good scoring ratio.

Spoiler: vs Germany at WC 58, great run behind and even better finish

Leading the line is Preben Elkjaer, think the opposition centerbacks would feel sick when they see who they facing, not necessarily because of the quality of players even though they are great but with those two up you wont have a minute piece in the game, not even when you are in possession. Cant think of the player that can stretch opposition defence/team both vertically and horizontally better then Elkjaer so there will be gaps to exploit and who better to do it then crazy bulgarian and the drunken fool.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam @Skizzo All the best!

 

[Skizzo]

I’ll be in and out (ayyyyyyy) today, but good luck @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam

And thanks for putting this up @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[Skizzo]

Since I’ll be on the “out” phase for a while, just a few videos if anyone has (lots of) time to watch

Paul Mcgrath

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good luck @Skizzo

Front line looks peachy(apart from Morton who i know nothing about) with Socrates and Moreno behind Ruud. Where we see our chance is the midfield, Vidal is great but from what i saw from Rattin when i researched him for previous draft is that he offers very, very little defensive wise. Cant remember what game exactly i watched but was at the WC and players were just going past him like he wasnt there and with Schuster and specially with Sir Bobby in the midfield i reckon that could be a big problem. Also not sure what to think about Sammer in a back 4, we were trying to guess how would you play and i was trying all different systems where Sammer would be where he is at his best(back 3) but i couldnt do it so the system you are playing is where we ended which surprised me a bit i have to admit.

 

[Skizzo]

Ruuuuuuuud



Arturo Vidal

 

[Skizzo]

good luck @Skizzo

Front line looks peachy(apart from Morton who i know nothing about) with Socrates and Moreno behind Ruud. Where we see our chance is the midfield, Vidal is great but from what i saw from Rattin when i researched him for previous draft is that he offers very, very little defensive wise. Cant remember what game exactly i watched but was at the WC and players were just going past him like he wasnt there and with Schuster and specially with Sir Bobby in the midfield i reckon that could be a big problem. Also not sure what to think about Sammer in a back 4, we were trying to guess how would you play and i was trying all different systems where Sammer would be where he is at his best(back 3) but i couldnt do it so the system you are playing is where we ended which surprised me a bit i have to admit.

I’ll have a bit more up later about Rattin, even England at the time we’re considering him as one of the best in the world at the time. Hyperbole aside, he should be able to do what’s needed of him in a restricted role of sorts.

As for the system, it’s more of a end product of being at work for the last few picks I had someone in mind for a third cb, but he got picked, and I went elsewhere in the mean time. Then I completely forgot I didn’t pick a replacement for that position when I said I was done while it does restrict him somewhat from bombing up the pitch, with Mcgrath alongside him, it gives him a solid base to step out when necessary or shore up the defensive line. We lose out on his offensive game slightly, but nothing on the defensive side.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I’ll have a bit more up later about Rattin, even England at the time we’re considering him as one of the best in the world at the time. Hyperbole aside, he should be able to do what’s needed of him in a restricted role of sorts.

As for the system, it’s more of a end product of being at work for the last few picks I had someone in mind for a third cb, but he got picked, and I went elsewhere in the mean time. Then I completely forgot I didn’t pick a replacement for that position when I said I was done while it does restrict him somewhat from bombing up the pitch, with Mcgrath alongside him, it gives him a solid base to step out when necessary or shore up the defensive line. We lose out on his offensive game slightly, but nothing on the defensive side.

just a quick reply before the game, no doubt Rattin was quality but thats why i saw when i watched him...in other segments he was pretty damn good, very classy on the ball. Reckon you could get away with it alongside Vidal as he was an absolute beast at his peak but he is here against Sir Bobby of all people + all 3 from the front line are very good dribblers but are also rapid as feck. Could be a problem on the counter.

 

[Brwned]

These games are so tight that a lot of it comes down to square pegs in round holes, obvious 1 on 1 mismatches and from one of those two the clearest route to goal.

Sammer is the obvious square peg but up against Elkjaer on his own, it just about works. Carlos Alberto and Moreno up against Luis is the biggest mismatch, but then Stoichkov comes into the picture and the worries about leaving him free brings up the Sammer issue again and muddies the waters. Vidal and Senna are both a level below the rest and are surely struggling against Schuster and Socrates, but it's hard to see a clear winner in the midfield battle there when you take into account the wingers too.

Will definitely need some swaying from the managers here...

 

[Skizzo]

just a quick reply before the game, no doubt Rattin was quality but thats why i saw when i watched him...in other segments he was pretty damn good, very classy on the ball. Reckon you could get away with it alongside Vidal as he was an absolute beast at his peak but he is here against Sir Bobby of all people + all 3 from the front line are very good dribblers but are also rapid as feck. Could be a problem on the counter.

In regards to your front three, they certainly offer a threat, and Sir Bobby often seems to get underrated slightly, but is a great in his own right. On the flip side though, Moreno and Carlos Alberto on that side would cause Felipe Luis nightmares with Stoichkov highly unlikely to offer much defensively on that side to help out. Or should I say, he will, but the father away from my goal he goes, the better

Anyway, we can throw handbags back and forth after the game catch you later mate.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

In regards to your front three, they certainly offer a threat, and Sir Bobby often seems to get underrated slightly, but is a great in his own right. On the flip side though, Moreno and Carlos Alberto on that side would cause Felipe Luis nightmares with Stoichkov highly unlikely to offer much defensively on that side to help out. Or should I say, he will, but the father away from my goal he goes, the better

Anyway, we can throw handbags back and forth after the game catch you later mate.

Yeah, Moreno and Carlos Alberto is comfortably the best asset your team has, what i can say is that Carlos Alberto wont be able to push up as much as he should because its going to be a tight game and he has to worry about Sir Bobby drifting to his side and more importantly he has Stoichkov running at that defence both of and on the ball. With Alberto being limited(as i reckon if he pushes up it would do more harm then good) that will mean Moreno's impact will be smaller.

Where we see our advantage is the fact we have at least 9(dont know about Corbatta) players that will run their socks of so our defence will be more protected. Filipe Luis while not being the biggest name on the pitch he has over 5 years at highest level playing against the likes of Bale, Neymar, Messi etc. and very often his team and he keep them quiet.
Here he is against Neymar and Dani Alves in CL QF at Camp Nou.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Charlton and Rattin faced each other twice from what i know, in 62' england destroyed argentina and Sir Bobby was star of the show. Its poor quality of the vid but you cant miss Rattin, tall number 16 that doesnt do much defensive wise

Second game Rattin was sent of at WC 66 but to this day nobody is sure why....

Regarding Sammer, reckon he would have it easier if he was against a proper number 9 because Elkjaer's movement is to much for most veterans of the position let alone someone that from what i know never played or at best very rarely played in a back 4 where dynamics of the game are night and day between a back 4 and a back 3 where Sammer excelled.

 

[Skizzo]

It’s not like Sammer is doing a man marking job. Besides, Mcgrath did a number on plenty of mobile forwards (Baggio and Rush for two examples) so it’s not like we have two lumbering defenders who are gonna be struggling.

Ruud’s movement and poaching inside the box would cause just as many, if not more, problems for Adams and Chumps.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Marcos Senna

• Euro TOTT - 2008
• Don Balon Award - Spanish Player of the Year 2008

Bernd Schuster

• Balon d'Or - 80 runner up, 81 third
• Euro TOTT - 1980

Bobby Charlton

• Balon d'Or - 66, runner up 67, runner up 68
• WC TOTT - 66, 70
• WC Golden Ball - 66

Hristo Stoichkov

• Balon d'Or - runner up 92, 94
• WC TOTT - 94
• WC Bronze Ball - 94
• WC Golden Boot - 94
• Euro TOTT - 96

Preben Elkjaer

• Balon d'Or - 84 third, 85 runner up
• WC Bronze Ball - 86
• WC TOTT - 86

Lord @harms with the vids! Hopefully my Maradona of AM recovers until tomorrow so he can take over!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It’s not like Sammer is doing a man marking job.

Ruud’s movement and poaching inside the box would cause just as many, if not more, problems for Adams.

its not but he is in unfamiliar territory while Adams defended Ruud type for his whole career.

 

[Skizzo]

its not but he is in unfamiliar territory while Adams defended Ruud type for his whole career.

Again, you’re completely ignoring Mcgrath and making it a Sammer vs Elkjaer battle. Plus, just because Adams is used to a certain type, doesn’t mean he won’t struggle against Ruud and his abilities.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Again, you’re completely ignoring Mcgrath and making it a Sammer vs Elkjaer battle. Plus, just because Adams is used to a certain type, doesn’t mean he won’t struggle against Ruud and his abilities.

because i dont have an issue with McGrath, no question he is a great player. Thats why i was surprised when i saw your squad, Sammer went from probably being your best player to the potential weakness.
I didnt say Adams will stop Ruud because he is used to that type, im just saying its easier to assume that a player who is new to the position will most likely have more problems then a player who is playing his natural game.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Why is Sammer perceived as a weakness when other sweepers like Baresi/Scirea/Beckenbauer are used in all kinds of formations regardless of them being used to it?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Why is Sammer perceived as a weakness when other sweepers like Baresi/Scirea/Beckenbauer are used in all kinds of formations regardless of them being used to it?

because they all played xy times in back 3/4 systems while Sammer didnt, at least from my knowledge.

 

[Enigma_87]

Why is Sammer perceived as a weakness when other sweepers like Baresi/Scirea/Beckenbauer are used in all kinds of formations regardless of them being used to it?

Have no clue, but usually that's the perception around here.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Have no clue, but usually that's the perception around here.

you ever saw him as a CB in a back 4? I saw him in midfield, as sweeper/libero in back 3 and even as a rightback but never as a proper centerback and thats a position you dont experiment IMO
If someone has links to correct me i will drop it because i dont think its the thing that makes a major difference in this game as i reckon the midfield and team work rate is where we would win the game, regardless of Sammer at CB.

 

[Don Alfredo]

because they all played xy times in back 3/4 systems while Sammer didnt, at least from my knowledge.

I don‘t think Beckenbauer or Baresi have big credentials in 3-man-backlines, but that is not even my point.

The argument shouldn‘t be wether someone played in the same formation before, but rather if the player has the skills needed for that position. Else you could never build a WM with modern players or use new formations.

I believe Sammer has great tactical understanding of the game, physique, stamina, ball-playing skills and leadership. An excellent skill set to play next to Paul McGrath in a back 4 if you ask me.

By the way nice research for the Charlton vs Rattin video, might have to rethink my vote

 

[Skizzo]

i reckon the midfield and team work rate is where we would win the game, regardless of Sammer at CB.

The midfield and team work rate? Vidal and Rattin both work hard, Sammer can step into it if necessary at times, Moreno often dropped back to help out, Socrates would often start from deeper positions. There’s hardly a clear match winning advantage for you in that regards.

I’d (obviously ) put forth that the three behind Ruud would cause all sorts of problems with their link up. Moreno on his own would cause issues on that side, and with Morton stretching things on the other side, it would create some space in that back line to further take advantage of.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don‘t think Beckenbauer or Baresi have big credentials in 3-man-backlines, but that is not even my point.

The argument shouldn‘t be wether someone played in the same formation before, but rather if the player has the skills needed for that position. Else you could never build a WM with modern players or use new formations.

I believe Sammer has great tactical understanding of the game, physique, stamina, ball-playing skills and leadership. An excellent skill set to play next to Paul McGrath in a back 4 if you ask me.

By the way nice research for the Charlton vs Rattin video, might have to rethink my vote

As i said, im all for experiments but not at CB position and specially not in a back 4 formations as there is a larger margin for error compared to a back 3 for example. In a game of this quality you dont want risks at CB position and playing someone there that never really played there is risky, at least IMO
He can have all qualities he needs on paper but you dont want him learning the position at this level, level higher then anyone here on the pitch played. It might be a masterstroke like Zidane manager stint at Madrid but it can also be a major feck up and id say a chances for the latter are bigger.

 

[Skizzo]

A bit on Alan Morton

THE portrait of Morton which stands as the top of the marble staircase in the Ibrox Main Stand is a testament to the esteem in which he is held.

The winger was legendary manager Bill Struth’s first signing for the club in 1920 and what an acquisition he turned out to be.

Despite a lack of stature – he was only 5′ 4″ tall – the former Queen’s Park man was one of the most devastating Rangers players of all time.

Using his speed, control and balance to bemuse defenders, Morton consistently supplied his forwards with the service needed to fire the Gers’ goals.

In his 13 years as a player with Rangers, the club won ten championships and two Scottish Cups and his 115 goals (and countless ‘assists’) from 495 matches were a huge factor in the team’s success.

Morton was also a superb servant to Scotland and earned the nickname ‘The Wee Blue Devil’ after an exceptional display against England at Wembley in 1928.

In all he played eleven times against the ‘Auld Enemy’ as part of his 31-cap international total.

From the research I did during the all time British draft you definitely take Morton over Cooper. He was arguably the best left winger in the world in his time and destroyed England in that famous match at Wembley. .

But by all accounts Alan Morton is one of the greatest wingers these islands have ever produced.

Morton was the best British left winger until Best came along and since then has only been challenged by Giggs. The testimonies smd eulogies are compelling. I might not have the YouTube compilations to back that up, but it defeats the purpose of an all time draft if that becomes a prerequisite for proving a player's worth.

I’ll try and find some more reports on his match vs England if I can dig it up.

 

[Skizzo]

I don‘t think Beckenbauer or Baresi have big credentials in 3-man-backlines, but that is not even my point.

The argument shouldn‘t be wether someone played in the same formation before, but rather if the player has the skills needed for that position. Else you could never build a WM with modern players or use new formations.

I believe Sammer has great tactical understanding of the game, physique, stamina, ball-playing skills and leadership. An excellent skill set to play next to Paul McGrath in a back 4 if you ask me.

By the way nice research for the Charlton vs Rattin video, might have to rethink my vote

The bolded is all correct, and it’s not something completely foreign to him being there. His skill set and ability are all suited to it. If anything, it takes away from his attacking game, which is a shame, but not his defensive attributes.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The midfield and team work rate? Vidal and Rattin both work hard, Sammer can step into it if necessary at times, Moreno often dropped back to help out, Socrates would often start from deeper positions. There’s hardly a clear match winning advantage for you in that regards.

I’d (obviously ) put forth that the three behind Ruud would cause all sorts of problems with their link up. Moreno on his own would cause issues on that side, and with Morton stretching things on the other side, it would create some space in that back line to further take advantage of.

I can see Vidal and Moreno on the same level(workrate wise) as my guys, others not so much. I know the sample for Rattin is probably the smallest possible with only one game but i cant ignore what i saw.

 

[Enigma_87]

you ever saw him as a CB in a back 4? I saw him in midfield, as sweeper/libero in back 3 and even as a rightback but never as a proper centerback and thats a position you dont experiment IMO
If someone has links to correct me i will drop it because i dont think its the thing that makes a major difference in this game as i reckon the midfield and team work rate is where we would win the game, regardless of Sammer at CB.

Sammer career was cut short when he was moved to the libero position, but being modern player and considering his qualities to me there isn't really much tactically to put him as a CB in a flat back four like Passarella for example.

In other words an adventurous CB/sweeper/libero if you may but very solid defensively - something that he has proven on more than one occasion.

I've picked him before and played him in a back four so this is a notion I really can't agree with. Especially since as you said he excelled in multiple positions - midfield or even used wide.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Enigma_87 fair enough, lets agree to disagree and move on

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@Gio Cliff Bastin scored 178 goals in 350 matches for Arsenal and was key player in trophies before the war cut his career short at 27 just as he was entering his peak years! I think he matches up very positively with Morton.

 

[Skizzo]

@Gio Cliff Bastin scored 178 goals in 350 matches for Arsenal and was key player in trophies before the war cut his career short at 27 just as he was entering his peak years! I think he matches up very positively with Morton.

didn’t mean to drag Gio into a separate debate, just passing along his thoughts as I know he’s more versed in the Scots than I am. Although obviously before his time

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

didn’t mean to drag Gio into a separate debate, just passing along his thoughts as I know he’s more versed in the Scots than I am. Although obviously before his time

Oh no debate from me on. I'm sure that one was all the rage in pubs in the 1940s with a Rangers version of @Cal? sipping a Glendronach as he waxed lyrical on his favorite left forward

 

[Skizzo]

And finally a few more excerpts to read up on Moreno. By all accounts, someone who, even without Carlos Alberto, would do some damage down that side against Felipe Luis, and linking up with Sócrates.

Spoiler

Prior to world cup 1966 there was a respected argentine journalist, juvenal, who wrote for the magazine of el gráfico, fan of la máquina of River Plate, who saw all the greats from the 1940s onward, printed "Pelé the best of all time"....something along those lines.

Whether this was a view shared by european journalists is unknown to me, but I would have some doubts whether Pelé would have been generally viewed greater than Di Stefano by 1966. By 1970, the final coronation in México, the 1000 goal landmark, the advent shift from b&w to color screen tv, the aknowledged universal acceptance of the black athlete, all shifted perceptions in the brazilian's favour.

Pelé arrived at the right time, right place, when black athletes were breaking barriers, predecessors such as Arthur Friedenrich, aknowledged by those whom witnessed him as possibly superior and an achiever of 1000 goals himself, according to some reports, suffered from living in the pre-war era. He was in some ways what Moreno was to Di Stefano, possibly the better or equal player but not greater.

In 1964 Pele was at the physical peak of his powers, generally viewed as the premier player in the game, so el gráfico decided to conduct a comparison with the current best with the previous best, Moreno, utilizing witnesses that had saw them both in action. The conclusion was fairly even. By 1980 Moreno had been somewhat forgotten, with a shift of the old guard of journalists to a new set of experts in a new comparison but this time it was Pelé vs Di Stefano. Again both faired evenly but with a slight tendency in favor of the Brazilian.

Di Stefano never obtained Pelé's fame from an early age, viewed in South América in the shadows of the Moreno's and Pedernera's of the world, excluded and barely receiving votes in el gráfico's 1960s poll as part of the best XI of all time of the Argentinian national team, with Moreno topping the list, but with discipline and sacrifices, aided by his eventual successful move to Europe, he made his way up the ranks in the pantheon of football greats.

Spoiler

Ok, we have to split this question in two halves, the Di Stefano and his career in South America and the one in Europe.

The man in South America particularly in Argentina was considered an excellent forward, but not spoken of as someone prodigious from an early age. In Argentina he was considered a superb athlete, fast, an eye for goal, but limited with few weapons in his arsenal. He struggled in the aerial game, had only one profile in attack: to go to his right. At that time he was not the total footballer yet.

In Colombia his game starts to evolve and in Europe it reaches its total evolution: he becomes the anchor of the team, the total footballer. Any weaknesses in his game became less apparent and concealed. His discipline and dedication to want to improve is regarded by many as his greatest strength to his success.

With Moreno the story is completely different. He was viewed as a precocious young talent, athletically blessed, without technical weaknesses. His arsenal was unlimited. Powerful in the air, two footed, could play in many positions, was a two-way player, a fearless competitor that had the natural gene of being a leader.

For the NT, which was the ultimate badge of honor to represent the country, Moreno was the greatest representative of his time in the view of those that lived it. At club level where ever he went he was admired. But he did not benefit because he never featured in a WC, from not playing abroad and from being a prewar player.

Jose Manuel "el fanfa" Moreno

"The man of the people"

"Moreno had the permanent magnetic presence of a rotating star for the fans. Very few came so close to such a unanimous admiration of the general public, and the attraction of multitudes of people to witness his masterful goals, his combinations, his dribbling, his vigorous headers (each cross from Peucelle that Moreno headed was generally a goal, especially in the NT) and elasticity, his conduction of attacks, his job as a hard worker for the ball in the back-line to build up progress going forward, his unsurpassed resistance, and his Apollo-like athletic figure that was admired by the people. He was the leader for his clubs and the NT. He had it all: speed, skill, mischief, and a panoramic view of the entire field which was a repertoire that made him as complete as anyone. He was a winner that gave his all and demanded all from his teammates. No one was more valiant than him – capable of playing injured with blood dripping or his tooth’s knocked out. His total personality brought the stands to their feet with the magnetism that’s reserved for the true idols – that was Moreno, an irreplaceable figure, which left a trail of unforgettable memories.”


According to Pedernera “he was a player that covered the entire field exhausting his opponents”.

He also stated that he was the best player he ever saw. "He had it all".


In 1980, he was ranked as the best Argentine footballer in the history by Sports' journalists in Argentina.
An excerpt about Moreno from Ian Hawkey' recent biography on Di Stefano:

There was the afternoon he was struck, during an away game in front of a pugnacious crowd at Tigres, by a large stone smuggled into the ground from the nearby railway line and then hurled with ‘If the medics come and give me treatment on the pitch, they’ll take me off on a stretcher. I won’t give them the satisfaction. Imagine: they’d be singing at every match from now on, “We got to Moreno”.’ Two-footed, he could shoot with explosive force but preferred, where possible to stroke or glide the ball past the opposing goalkeeper. He was a formidably powerful header of the ball. For Carrizo, the River goalkeeper for Moreno’s second spell at the club, he has to be bracketed with the top three or four footballers in Argentina’s history. ‘He is with the greats, and that’s the greats,’ says Carrizo. That is to say, he should be regarded next to Diego Maradona, Lionel Messi and Di Stféfano.

Moreno placed 5th and Pedernera 12th in IFFHS' South American Player of the Century list, ahead of the likes of Didi, Romario, Rivelino, and in Moreno's case Zico and Figueroa too.

 

[Gio]

@Skizzo Yes on Morton.

Douglas Lamming was a football historian from Yorkshire who wrote Who's Whos for every single British internationalist as well as various other football history books. In one of them he published in 1986, he proclaimed Morton as the greatest British left winger of all time. Helpful to get that comparison from a more neutral source.

He was in a class all by himself. He would never beat his full-back in the same way twice, for he had so many tricks. Despite playing on the left wing, Morton's right foot was the stronger one, though the truth is he was two footed and perfectly balanced. But the power he had in his right foot meant he could as easily cut inside and shoot or slip the ball into me, as he could go down the wing and cross into the penalty box.

@Gio Cliff Bastin scored 178 goals in 350 matches for Arsenal and was key player in trophies before the war cut his career short at 27 just as he was entering his peak years! I think he matches up very positively with Morton.

Yeah, definitely deserves to be in the debate.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 fair enough, lets agree to disagree and move on

aye. Otherwise very good constructed team yourself. I imagine it's earlier Schuster, seeing him as a RCM. Senna is also good choice for that midfield base and Stoichkov/Elkjaer is very mobile and fluid striking force.

You've got the star on the pitch in Sir Bobby, whilst Skizzo I think has a bit more quality in other places but splitting hairs mostly.

Have to say Adams/Chumpitaz looks pretty complimentary pairing on paper and haven't seen it so far but definitely like it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Can't see Bepo/Beam's formation pic.

Android, Chrome/Opera/Firefox (won't load on any of them).

 

[Indnyc]

Can't see Bepo/Beam's formation pic.

Android, Chrome/Opera/Firefox (won't load on any of them).

Works for me. I embedded it again. Does this work?

If not, it’s http://sharemytactics.com/112524

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Works for me. I embedded it again. Does this work?

If not, it’s http://sharemytactics.com/112524

Yes - the last one works. Not the original one, though - odd.

But thanks!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

From what I recall, Moreno was a left sided player. He dropped back to left midfield with Pedernera occupying the right. I also rate Corbatta ahead of Rats.

 

[idmanager]

From what I recall, Moreno was a left sided player. He dropped back to left midfield with Pedernera occupying the right. I also rate Corbatta ahead of Rats.

Think its the other way round.