The Impossible Draft R1 - MJJ vs Indnyc

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

............................................. TEAM MJJ ............................................................................................... TEAM INDNYC .............................................

Team MJJ

Why I will win

• Hidegkuti movement allowed him to destroy a W-M formation in one of the most famous matches in history, I expect something similar happening here with baggio,lato playing between the lines and hidegkuti dropping deep.
• Strong midfield core of Valderrama,Andrade and Monti which should ensure that my side controls the midfield and indy's forward are left stranded.
• Souness is more of a box to box than a DM which would leave indy's back four exposed
• Out-dated formation(W-M)
• A very strong and complementary partnership in vasovic and stam.

Team Indnyc

Formation – WM (3-2-2-3)

The team is set up in a old fashioned WM formation with a fluid attack. Given the restrictions in the draft, I wanted to experiment and bring fresh ideas to the table.

Style of Play

Direct – The team is set up to play attacking football with 2 inside forwards, a lethal no. 9 and two outside wingers to provide width. The Inside forwards and center forward positions are nominal and they are expected to interchange as the game progresses. Two defensive midfielders will control the pace of the game

GoalKeeper

Rene "El Loco" Higuita : - One of Columbia's greatest players, he was the epitome of a ball playing goalkeeper. He was incredibly consistent and part of the best Columbian teams of the 1980's and 1990's

The Defense

Rudd Krol – Domingos Da Guia – Lilian Thuram

Rudd Krol and Lilian Thuram are perfect players to have in a 3 man defense. Both can play centrally and as full backs making them ideal in this position and deal with the wingers from the opposition

Domingos da Guia is regarded as one of the best Brazilian defenders of all time. He was a lynchpin in Brazil's defence during their World Cup showing in 1938, as he helped his nation finish third at the tournament hosted in France. He was voted the best player in the 1945 Copa America

Midfield

Zito - A strong, commanding and influential midfielder, known for his leadership, Zito serving as a defensive foil to his more offensive minded teammates. An intelligent and highly organised player, he was known for his ability to win back possession with his tackling, and subsequently set the tempo in midfield through his movement off the ball and precise passing. He was the one man engine in the great Brazil team of 1958 and 62, allowing his well known attacking teammates to shine. He's also very good technically, especially in his short passing game and could retain possession very well and participate in the build up play.

Graeme Souness – The greatest midfielder to play for Liverpool and arguably the most important cog in their glory years. He is the perfect foil for Zito in this midfield and together they will shield the defense and link midfield to attack

Attack

Just Fontaine - Just Fontaine was the most prolific scorer in the Europe in the late 1950s. He was a classic forward with ability to score from any angle, with both feet and his head. He leads the line here and with support from Pedernera and Ceulemans, i expect him to get a lot of chances to score

Adolfo Pedernera – “El Maestro” was widely considered to be one of the greatest footballers in the world in the 1940’s. He played as an inside forward and was one of the early pioneers of the false nine. His partnership with Loustau on the outside left wing was devastating for the greatest River Plate team known as “la Manquina”. Prolific goal scorer and creator, he will orchestrate my attacks along with Ceulemans and drag opposition players out of position

“Obdulio, are you frightened of the Brazil forwards?” asked the journalists of Uruguay midfielder Obdulio Varela ahead of the final and decisive match of the 1950 FIFA World Cup Brazil™

“Frightened?” came the reply. “I’ve played against Adolfo Pedernera and there’s nobody like him.”

Jan Ceulemans – Pace, power, technical ability and goals, should make a stunning partnership with Fontaine and Pedernera. He is arguably Belgium’s greatest player of all time and fired them to the 1980 Euro Finals.

Felix Loustau – Considered by many to be one of Argentina’s greatest wingers, he was another important player for the greatest River Plate team of all time. He will provide width and track back while defending

Ferenc Bene – Playing in the outside right position, Bene was a dynamic, lightning-quick dribbler with an incredible scoring record. He was part of the great Hungarian team of the 60’s that won the Olympics, 3rd place at 64 European Championship and Quarter finalist at 66 world cup and placed 6th on the Balon D’or list

View on Opposition

Roberto Baggio is the key player for the opposition along with Higekguti and Valderrama. They have the ability to score against the best of defenses. Having said that, between Souness and Zito my midfield will pick up any threats with players trying to orchestrate from midfield and my defense is very strong to handle any threat from wide players.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@MJJ @Indnyc all the best!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Team Indnyc:

Team MJJ:

2 World Cup winners- Monti and Aldrade
- 2 Champions League/ European Cup winners- Stam and Vasovic()
- 2 Copa America winners- None
- 2 players per decade (date of birth), with only one in 70s and 80s
- 2 per country (place of birth) (Modern only. Serbia instead of Yugoslavia)
- 6 per continent (place of birth) (All USSR breakaway countries will be considered Asia)

baggio 1960s Italian Europe
Lato 1950s Polish Europe
Hidgeuketi 1920s Hungary Europe
Marzolini 1940s Argentina South America
Ocwick 1920s Polish Europe
Monti 1900s Argentina South America
Valderamma 1960s Colombia South America
Vasovic 1930s Serbia Europe
Stam 1970s Holland Europe
Andrade 1900s Uruguay Europe
Ferreira 1950s Brazil South America
Valdivieso 1910s Peru Europe


MJJ: (1) R. Baggio (2) G. Lato (3) N. Hidegkuti (4) S. Marzolini (5) E. Ocwirk (6) L. Monti (7) C. Valderrama (8) V. Vasovic (9) J. Stam (10) J. L. Andrade (11). L. Ferreira (12) J. Valdivieso

 

[MJJ]

Goodluck @Indnyc

 

[Brwned]

My instincts are this one is a stalemate...but Indnyc gets bonus points for the W-M and the familiarity 5 of his front 7 have with it, plus all three defenders being comfortable in those spaces. But a persuasive argument from either end could swing it for me so I'll hold off for a while...

 

[harms]

Not sure what the arrow on Zito means. Awesome WM though. Had Bene played as an outside right though? I was under the impression that he played as an inside right and was predominantly a goalscorer.

Wasn't Andrade playing on the right side? Good team by MJJ, but I would've preferred a more attacking left back.

 

[MJJ]

Not sure what the arrow on Zito means. Awesome WM though. Had Bene played as an outside right though? I was under the impression that he played as an inside right and was predominantly a goalscorer.

Wasn't Andrade playing on the right side? Good team by MJJ, but I would've preferred a more attacking left back.

Outside of one world-cup performances, marzolini was pretty attacking.

Marzolini immediately became first choice at left-back, where he was able to combine his defensive strength and aerial ability with great skill on the ball and an attacking instinct which gave him huge influence over the whole left side of the pitch. After helping Ferro to finish in joint-third place in 1959, he was signed by Boca Juniors ahead of the 1960 season and went on the spent the rest of his playing career with the club.

By this time, Marzolini's stylish play and good looks had made him one of the most famous figures in Argentinian football.

He began his career in Deportivo Italiano, went through Ferro and from there he jumped to Boca to build a golden story with his exquisite game and his unlimited delivery

That in turn accelerated the change in the role of the full-back. With no winger up tight against him, he could advance. The result, in the 1960s, was the great age of the attacking left-back: not just Nilton Santos but also the Argentinian Silvio Marzolini and the Italian Giacinto Facchetti. For England, Ray Wilson advanced as no other full-back ever had before.

Silvio Marzolini (Argentina; Ferro Carril Oeste, Boca Juniors): Five times a champion with Boca, he was a vital outlet in an often defensive side. A pin-up, he was the first Argentinian to sign an advertising contract, promoting espadrilles.

 

[Brwned]

@MJJ because what an attacking fullback was in that era is so distant from what an attacking fullback is now, I think most of us are pretty sceptical...and perhaps unfairly so in some cases. But attacking fullbacks from back then were involved in the attacking phase less than e.g. Wes Brown c. 2008. Better technically no doubt, but it's hard to imagine almost any fullback from that era being the main provider of width to allow someone like Baggio to drift in often.

In the same way that Evra was a great attacking fullback but a rubbish winger, a great attacking fullback from back then can be quite far away from an attacking fullback now. Having the main responsibility for wingplay is a really big step up.

EDIT: Just saw the additional comments. The idea of that being the great era of attacking left-backs is crazy...

 

[Indnyc]

Goodluck @Indnyc

Thanks. Good luck to you as well

 

[Indnyc]

Not sure what the arrow on Zito means. Awesome WM though. Had Bene played as an outside right though? I was under the impression that he played as an inside right and was predominantly a goalscorer.

Wasn't Andrade playing on the right side? Good team by MJJ, but I would've preferred a more attacking left back.

Bene was comfortable both inside and out wide. Especially playing with Albert he played wide right a fair few times. Of course he was a great goal scorer and will cut inside if the game demands.

Andrade was more of a right back (Right half in the old formations which translates to right back in modern formations). Not sure why he is here when MJJ had Ocwirk

 

[Enigma_87]

Bene was comfortable both inside and out wide. Especially playing with Albert he played wide right a fair few times. Of course he was a great goal scorer and will cut inside if the game demands.

Andrade was more of a right back (Right half in the old formations which translates to right back in modern formations). Not sure why he is here when MJJ had Ocwirk

He was pretty much RCM mate. Most often than not he's depicted as DM or destroyer. I don't get the trend that we see him more often than not as RB in drafts. To me he is either B2B or DM. Could fill at RB but that is not his best position.

Otherwise fantastic WM mate, as harms said the only thing I don't get is the arrow on Zito.

 

[harms]

He was pretty much RCM mate. Most often than not he's depicted as DM or destroyer. I don't get the trend that we see him more often than not as RB in drafts. To me he is either B2B or DM. Could fill at RB but that is not his best position.

Agree, from what I've read about him he is pretty much a cultured right-sided midfielder (unlike his, what was it, nephew?)

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ because what an attacking fullback was in that era is so distant from what an attacking fullback is now, I think most of us are pretty sceptical...and perhaps unfairly so in some cases. But attacking fullbacks from back then were involved in the attacking phase less than e.g. Wes Brown c. 2008. Better technically no doubt, but it's hard to imagine almost any fullback from that era being the main provider of width to allow someone like Baggio to drift in often.

In the same way that Evra was a great attacking fullback but a rubbish winger, a great attacking fullback from back then can be quite far away from an attacking fullback now. Having the main responsibility for wingplay is a really big step up.

EDIT: Just saw the additional comments. The idea of that being the great era of attacking left-backs is crazy...

He is mentioned alongside facchetti from what I read and he would easily fit in today's era, ashley cole is probably a good example.

 

[Indnyc]

Wanted to respond to some of the comments from MJJ in the OP

Team MJJ

Why I will win

• Hidegkuti movement allowed him to destroy a W-M formation in one of the most famous matches in history, I expect something similar happening here with baggio,lato playing between the lines and hidegkuti dropping deep. - In Hidegkuti's greatest games, he had Puskas and Koscis in front of him with Czibor and Budhai on either flanks. I don't think this is even remotely similar
• Strong midfield core of Valderrama,Andrade and Monti which should ensure that my side controls the midfield and indy's forward are left stranded. - Andrade is out of position in center midfield. I am not sure how a midfield of Andrade, Monti, Valderrama would control a midfield of Zito, Souness with support from Ceulemans and Pedernera. The beauty of the WM was that you had 3 strikers with 2 attacking midfielders supporting your two defensive midfielders.
• Souness is more of a box to box than a DM which would leave indy's back four exposed - Souness was the more defensive minded player in the Liverpool midfield with McDermott the more attacking player. He is perfectly capable of playing a defensive role here
• Out-dated formation(W-M) - Don't see how this is relevant. Tactics are always evolving. Pep played a variation of the WM and WW formations with Barcelona and recently with City

 

[MJJ]

Not until the 1950s did it finally meet its end, when Hungary’s 6-3 win at Wembley showed that the W-M could be pulled apart by fluid movement and quick interchanges.

The death of the W-M formation, given my front three I really expect something similar to happen here specially with hidegkuti starring.

 

[MJJ]

Wanted to respond to some of the comments from MJJ in the OP

Team MJJ

Why I will win

• Hidegkuti movement allowed him to destroy a W-M formation in one of the most famous matches in history, I expect something similar happening here with baggio,lato playing between the lines and hidegkuti dropping deep. - In Hidegkuti's greatest games, he had Puskas and Koscis in front of him with Czibor and Budhai on either flanks. I don't think this is even remotely similar
• Strong midfield core of Valderrama,Andrade and Monti which should ensure that my side controls the midfield and indy's forward are left stranded. - Andrade is out of position in center midfield. I am not sure how a midfield of Andrade, Monti, Valderrama would control a midfield of Zito, Souness with support from Ceulemans and Pedernera. The beauty of the WM was that you had 3 strikers with 2 attacking midfielders supporting your two defensive midfielders.
• Souness is more of a box to box than a DM which would leave indy's back four exposed - Souness was the more defensive minded player in the Liverpool midfield with McDermott the more attacking player. He is perfectly capable of playing a defensive role here
• Out-dated formation(W-M) - Don't see how this is relevant. Tactics are always evolving. Pep played a variation of the WM and WW formations with Barcelona and recently with City

Andrade is a midfielder? You can argue he is on the wrong side but dont think sides matter that much in centre midfield.

Souness was a box to box though, sitting deep wasnt his game. Even though he was defensive minded.

Mind giving examples of those games where pep played w-m?

 

[Indnyc]

He was pretty much RCM mate. Most often than not he's depicted as DM or destroyer. I don't get the trend that we see him more often than not as RB in drafts. To me he is either B2B or DM. Could fill at RB but that is not his best position.

Otherwise fantastic WM mate, as harms said the only thing I don't get is the arrow on Zito.

TBF, I haven't seen a lot of his matches but his wiki page says he was a right wing half with the definition of wing half being as below

The historic position of wing half (half-back) was given to midfielders who played near the side of the pitch. It became obsolete as wide players with defensive duties have tended to become more a part of the defence as full-backs

The Arrow on Zito indicates that he can fall back further to make it a 4 man defense when dealing with constant attacks from the oppostion.

 

[Indnyc]

Andrade is a midfielder? You can argue he is on the wrong side but dont think sides matter that much in centre midfield.

Souness was a box to box though, sitting deep wasnt his game. Even though he was defensive minded.

Mind giving examples of those games where pep played w-m?

May be i am wrong on Andrade but that is what his Wiki says. He was a wing half which is now more akin to a full back.

Sure Souness played B2B, but he is perfectly comfortable playing a holding role

Here is an interesting article on Pep and the W-M formation

https://www.eurosport.com/football/...-man-city-s-new-system_sto5822341/story.shtml

 

[MJJ]

For his principal club, Ujpest Dozsa, the younger man was deployed regularly as a central striker, but was forced to the wing for his country by the presence of Albert.

Bene played as a striker for his club so I am not really sure how much tracking back he would be doing here.

 

[Indnyc]

The death of the W-M formation, given my front three I really expect something similar to happen here specially with hidegkuti starring.

The WM died because managers expected WM players to have static positions in order to create triangle. It got obsolete because players didn't adapt. That doesn't mean players can't adapt

Hidekguti is a great player (I was trying to pick him as well) but as i mentioned earlier his best matches were when he had 2 strikers in front of him.

 

[MJJ]

May be i am wrong on Andrade but that is what his Wiki says. He was a wing half which is now more akin to a full back.

Sure Souness played B2B, but he is perfectly comfortable playing a holding role

Here is an interesting article on Pep and the W-M formation

https://www.eurosport.com/football/...-man-city-s-new-system_sto5822341/story.shtml

From the same article.

Or, to extrapolate, if that space is restored, Guardiola’s repurposed W-M could become vulnerable to wide forwards, particularly if they can be picked out by rapid cross-field balls.

Of course, Guardiola’s system is not that that was prevalent in Britain in the early sixties. It is not the same as the system Ramsey reformed. His W-M is specifically a shape to be adopted when in possession. Out of possession, there is a reversion to a back four with Fernandinho sitting just in front of it and one or both of the free eights dropping in alongside him. But still, there is a moment after possession is lost before the back four can be re-formed. How would the shape cope against a side that broke quickly down the flanks or that kept wide men high up the pitch?

Pep never really played a W-M formation like you are playing, his fullbacks just play as midfielders so on the ball it resembles one but even then it is vulnerable to wide-forwards and I have two of the best in the draft.

 

[Enigma_87]

Agree, from what I've read about him he is pretty much a cultured right-sided midfielder (unlike his, what was it, nephew?)

Seems his nephew was pretty versatile but not that comfortable at attacking. Seen him (Victor) not only at full back positions but in plenty of midfield zones in the 50's. Both highly rated but with pre-war players it's pretty controversial always, even pinning down an actual position.

 

[fishfingers15]

Voted. Great team both of you but I've voted Indnyc. Difference is very minimal thogh.

 

[Indnyc]

Bene played as a striker for his club so I am not really sure how much tracking back he would be doing here.

He doesn't have to do significant tracking back anyway. There are enough bodies there to defend any wide threats you have ( if any given Baggio seems to be coming in)

 

[harms]

The Arrow on Zito indicates that he can fall back further to make it a 4 man defense when dealing with constant attacks from the oppostion.

That's just not how he played at all.

 

[Indnyc]

Pep never really played a W-M formation like you are playing, his fullbacks just play as midfielders so on the ball it resembles one but even then it is vulnerable to wide-forwards and I have two of the best in the draft.

Of course there are deficiencies. But that is true for all formations. WM isn't something unique in that respect. And as good as your wide forwards are, i have my two best players there. To me Baggio running into Thuram and Lato running into Krol is a match up i am ok with.

 

[MJJ]

He doesn't have to do significant tracking back anyway. There are enough bodies there to defend any wide threats you have ( if any given Baggio seems to be coming in)

I am pretty sure you are going to be over-run in midfield and defence though, I have three attackers who are very good dribblers, one on one will favour my guys.

 

[Indnyc]

That's just not how he played at all.

I am not asking him to fall back and make a 4 man defense. The arrow indicates that if required he is the one who will fall back rather than Souness.

 

[MJJ]

Of course there are deficiencies. But that is true for all formations. WM isn't something unique in that respect. And as good as your wide forwards are, i have my two best players there. To me Baggio running into Thuram and Lato running into Krol is a match up i am ok with.

Baggio one on one with a defender is only ending one way.

 

[Indnyc]

I am pretty sure you are going to be over-run in midfield and defence though, I have three attackers who are very good dribblers, one on one will favour my guys.

I don't see why i would be run over in midfield. Ceulemans is as hard working an attaking midfielder as you can get. He is perfectly capable of helping out in midfield and so is Pedernera

It isn't that while the ball is in my half my 5 forward minded players are going to stay and not contribute at all.

 

[MJJ]

I don't see why i would be run over in midfield. Ceulemans is as hard working an attaking midfielder as you can get. He is perfectly capable of helping out in midfield and so is Pedernera

It isn't that while the ball is in my half my 5 forward minded players are going to stay and not contribute at all.

Because however much they track back, end of the day you are playing five forwards with just two midfielders whereas I have four defenders and three midfielders.

 

[Indnyc]

Baggio one on one with a defender is only ending one way.

He is running into Thuram. It isn't that Baggio won't get joy but he has as tough a defender as he can get to deal with

 

[Indnyc]

Because however much they track back, end of the day you are playing five forwards with just two midfielders whereas I have four defenders and three midfielders.

WM is 3 Forwards, 4 Midfielders and 3 defenders. Pedernera and Ceulemans are attacking midfielders.

 

[MJJ]

He is running into Thuram. It isn't that Baggio won't get joy but he has as tough a defender as he can get to deal with

You have seen how ronaldo vs thuram ended, one on one always favours the attacker if the two are of equal quality.

Who is dealing with valderrama btw?

 

[Indnyc]

Here is a great video on Ceulemans showing how often he was deep in midfield.

 

[Jim Beam]

Love the front 5 of @Indnyc, don't know about arrow on Zito, but Pedernera and Loustau are at home in this formation.

 

[Indnyc]

Lets talk a bit more about Adolfo Pedernera. Some of the anecdotes that are to be found.

• “Obdulio, are you frightened of the Brazil forwards?” asked the journalists of Uruguay midfielder Obdulio Varela ahead of the final and decisive match of the 1950 FIFA World Cup Brazil™, which pitted La Celeste against the tournament hosts, with the Trophy at stake.“Frightened?” came the reply. “I’ve played against Adolfo Pedernera and there’s nobody like him.

• The inimitable Alfredo Di Stefano, among the shrewdest judges of them all, rated Pedernera one of the best players he had ever seen, having idolised him as a fan at the Estadio Monumental and then played alongside him briefly there and for nearly four years in Bogota.

• Pedernera was the Cruyff of that much-celebrated River team, one shaped by its coach Renato Cesarini

• A Huracan youth product, the teenage Pedernera was fast on his feet, a skilful and fearless dribbler and could strike the ball with either foot. He dominated the left flank like no one else could, dreamed up passes that no one else saw and had a vision of the pitch that no one else possessed.

• The youngster had won two Argentinian league titles and two cups when Peucelle and Cesarini became to Pedernera what Pep Guardiola would later become to Lionel Messi at Barcelona, switching him to a more central and more withdrawn role and inviting him to alternate between driving into the box to finish moves off and sitting back to direct them.

• With Pedernera in the role of maquinista (“engine driver”), River won three more league crowns and three more cups, while the Argentinian national team also benefitted, landing two South American titles thanks in no small part to their schemer-in-chief.

• He was similarly adored in Colombia, his performance on his debut prompting one newspaper to write of him: “He is a phenomenon, an artist, a master passer and the epitome of intelligence. With him, everything is possible.”

He was rated as the 12th best South American player of all time by IFFHS. His creativity and vision here is going to drive my team forward

 

[Indnyc]

Love the front 5 of @Indnyc, don't know about arrow on Zito, but Pedernera and Loustau are at home in this formation.

Thank you. The Arrow on Zito is causing more confusion than intended. @Edgar Allan Pillow can i change my submission pic to remove the arrow on Zito?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Thank you. The Arrow on Zito is causing more confusion than intended. @Edgar Allan Pillow can i change my submission pic to remove the arrow on Zito?

Yes. Just that arrow. No other changes.

 

[Ecstatic]

Fascinating game.

Let me think about the dynamics of that game