They're probably dead even on graft and stamina.
The Impossible Draft R1 - Enigma vs PNut
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Thanks, Gio.
To be honest, yes. I wanted to present him(Djalma) as more of a complete full back what he was at the time(given of course the era and generation he played in) and I never picked him before.
To make it straight I don't expect him to overlap constantly like a Cafu or Dani Alves. We don't need that in the team, but also in the same time to show that he was much more than a Victor Andrade type and why he's considered one of the best full backs of all time.
We have plenty of players as in Kalle, Nedved and even Zico dropping to the right, attacking that right channel and Benarrivo attacking the left, so there is no need to have 2 overlapping full backs all the time.
What Djalma can do in the attacking phase is attacking the space - something he did so he isn't asked something out of the ordinary. He doesn't have to stretch the opposition on the right constantly.
As of Shesternyov probably I rate him more than most and consider him definitely one of the best defenders in the 60's.
Might be overrating Nedved a bit myself but to me him, Cafu, Davids and Di Stefano possessed the greatest engines I've seen from a player.
Becks also was top class in that aspect but a tier below.
I wouldn't disagree with that. Hard to assess properly to be honest without access to the hard data. But for what Beckham lacked in pace, he made up for it with endless stamina. His body was designed for lots of running with more slow-twitch than fast-twitch muscle fibre relatively speaking. Cross-country champion when he was a kid and ITV had him measured at 16k distance covered for the famous Greece game in 2001. Might take that figure with a pitch of salt given nobody has matched that figure since in the Champions League, but still watching that game it's not hard to believe.
That said, Nedved too was clearly a hell of a specimen and similarly full of graft.
Some more on Djalma and the development of the full back position:
And from Jonathan Wilson:
And from Jonathan Wilson:
Yeah, not a slight on Becks, love him as a player. He did have a bit of a nonchalant style of running/gliding across the pitch which made it more deceptive, compared to Nedved who was a lot more explosive in movement.
Well, he’s widely regarded as the best RB of all time
I wouldn’t compare him to Thuram, but Zanetti or Lahm as a modern example is fair one IMO.
no way. He's be benefiting from being paired with N. Santos and being compared against George Cohen in your excerpts, and the appropriate context is being muddled. There is no way he was like Zanetti going forward but played so conservatively for Brazil.If you tried to make a video of him in any game in '58 or '62 there is no way you could make a compelling case for him playing anything like that, even allowing for the fact he'd have to adapt for Garrincha. And in '62 Garrincha was an all-round attacker - he couldn't simply stick to the wing to drive them forward. That didn't bring out another side of Djalma Santos.
I'm a big fan of his but this is definitely one of those examples of full backs from yesteryear being misrepresented.
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Maybe I am a bit with Zico, but then there is only so much you can do to stop the GOAT's.
The game should be very open which is why I felt it would be very high scoring with Zico impacting his fair share.
Regarding Shesternyov, its just that I would want my best CB against Puskas who could win a game on his own in a high scoring game.
Santamaria is the best defender on your side of the pitch. I would have given Puskas a bit less joy against him.
All in all, as I said should be very tight and maybe a personal fav pair upfront won my vote. Cheers.
To be fair I was never a fan of this. He wasn't similar to Thuram, although in the drafts he seems like his older twin. I rate him as a pure RB (and one of the best there is), not as a RB/CB hybrid like Thuram, Gentile and Bergomi (although all of them can easily play as a pure RB). But, of course, he wasn't a Cafu/Zanetti-esque rampaging full back either.Djalma has been regularly used as a RCB in a 352 or WM in drafts before. Does that now mean he is Thuram and Zanetti rolled into one and officially the first superhuman witnessed by earth?
If you tried to make a video of him in any game in '58 or '62 there is no way you could make a compelling case for him playing anything like that, even allowing for the fact he'd have to adapt for Garrincha. And in '62 Garrincha was an all-round attacker - he couldn't simply stick to the wing to drive them forward. That didn't bring out another side of Djalma Santos.
I'm a big fan of his but this is definitely one of those examples of full backs from yesteryear being misrepresented.
Just so that it doesn't get misinterpreted. I'm not selling Djalma as a constant overlapping full back that hugs the touchline and goes to the byline to cross constantly or man the whole flank alone.
For club he didn't have Garrincha in front of him and also he started his career as a midfielder, hence pretty comfortable with advancing through the pitch.
I'll try to save some time and make some gifs from the games, although you can see even from glimpses that he was crossing the center line often - crossing from deep and providing support to the attack:
(often also referred as a playmaker from deep as in the video above)
Think also @Physiocrat poses an important question on how we judge those early attacking fullbacks as I've seen Nilton often played even as wing back in drafts, yet he was far from Carols or Cafu type either. Both were pioneers so we can't really expect them to replicate the modern day Cafu's or Zanetti's. Like every other pioneer, we can't expect to see the same wing game as modern day fill backs - something that has been developed and drilled for half a century after their time.
If we play them in modern day formation tho we can "expect" them to play as modern day full backs tho. Both him and Nilton are well renown for their understanding of the game, so they will definitely attack the space and not stand like a cone when the team is attacking. Both have bundle of energy and the lungs for lasting the modern day environment - hence they played deep in their 30's at very high level.
My point in regards to Zanetti/Lahm wasn't to big up his attacking game, but more of Djalma's understanding of the game and the ability to cover both in midfield (tucking in) - something both Zanetti and Lahm were doing on constant basis, especially in their latter years.
the 4-2-4 Brazil implemented also meant that Djalma had to cover a lot of ground, something he usually isn't given account for. Especially with Didi going further up the pitch (he was usually the RCM in that 2 man midfield) and leaving space behind and Garrincha doing feck all in the defensive phase.
So in essence the game plan isn't dependent on Djalma moving vertically crossing the ball from the right, but rather attacking the space, offering a passing option in the attacking third, cross from deep, cover the RCM if needed, etc - something which was well in his speciality.
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I think overtime the draft community has established their favorites and the legacy lives on w.r.t some of these full backs.
Take Nilton for example, you could use him in almost any formation, almost any way you want.
Need someone to defend against Jairzinho? Take Nilton.
Need someone to man a flank all alone? Take Nilton.
Need someone to provide overlaps to a winger? Take Nilton.
Got any footage or match compilations of his regular attacking moves, especially to man a flank on his own? Take anecdotes.
And this is from an era where videos are available
The same anecdotes of course don't work for someone like Monti who is established as a static DM while there are way too many sources that emphasize his deep lying play maker role as well, which won't count for shit here.
Got to do with the decades they were born in and the team they played in.
Why would you not fall in love with them when they were from probably the greatest teams of all times.
I am not disputing their stature. I just don't know for sure.
I'll still use them in those roles most probably as they will win votes, but then the same anecdotes don't work for others.
I would honestly place Zanetti and Lahm at par with the greatest right backs of all times. Same tier. Not one below.
Not everyone was lucky to be part of those great Brazilian squads.
Take Nilton for example, you could use him in almost any formation, almost any way you want.
Need someone to defend against Jairzinho? Take Nilton.
Need someone to man a flank all alone? Take Nilton.
Need someone to provide overlaps to a winger? Take Nilton.
Got any footage or match compilations of his regular attacking moves, especially to man a flank on his own? Take anecdotes.
And this is from an era where videos are available
The same anecdotes of course don't work for someone like Monti who is established as a static DM while there are way too many sources that emphasize his deep lying play maker role as well, which won't count for shit here.
Got to do with the decades they were born in and the team they played in.
Why would you not fall in love with them when they were from probably the greatest teams of all times.
I am not disputing their stature. I just don't know for sure.
I'll still use them in those roles most probably as they will win votes, but then the same anecdotes don't work for others.
I would honestly place Zanetti and Lahm at par with the greatest right backs of all times. Same tier. Not one below.
Not everyone was lucky to be part of those great Brazilian squads.
Yup, that's a good summary.
To me there isn't much between Nilton and Djalma and most historians describe them in the same way, yet for some reason one of them is most of the time used as Cafu without batting an eyelid, whilst the other is only picked to be played behind Garrincha or shut down a left winger. Whilst not a slight on Nilton, Djalma was also pretty complete player and full back and was more than what he's often described - just a defensive full back. Nilton is of course the slightly more attacking one, but still all quotes from that time mention them in the same breath when it comes to attacking contribution and general development of the position.
Perhaps we might give them a bit of leeway in terms of modern day formations as both were pretty intelligent players, capable of adapting into various situations and tactics.
Nilton also was used plenty of times as CB for his club side and his defensive acumen was pretty well appreciated.
For the record to me the best RB of all time is Zanetti, despite most sites rank either Cafu or Djalma. The margins are pretty slim and of course it's down to preference.
On a side note the importance of quality full backs is often overlooked in drafts IMO. They tend to be picked as late as keepers and not where you'd concentrate whilst building a team.
Agree with every word.
Has to be done:
Indeed. Any of the footage from those World Cups shows Djalma as the classic back four defend-first-attack-second full-back generally staying behind the ball and moving it on to the midfield or up the wing. It's some distance away from the modern interpretation of the role, dominating that outside-right flank and constantly overlapping.
If you tried to make a video of him in any game in '58 or '62 there is no way you could make a compelling case for him playing anything like that, even allowing for the fact he'd have to adapt for Garrincha. And in '62 Garrincha was an all-round attacker - he couldn't simply stick to the wing to drive them forward. That didn't bring out another side of Djalma Santos.
I'm a big fan of his but this is definitely one of those examples of full backs from yesteryear being misrepresented.
Well, that is two of us mate.
I have usually seen the best managers around here go for them early. I picked them in the last few rounds as always of course
But with fullbacks you don't have too many one size fits all players.
If you take Vogts/Andrade and your opponent doesn't have a winger, its an absolute waste of resource. Same for the attacking ones. Tough to get the balance right.
Has to be done:
Was wondering why this wasn't posted yet
Reckon with rightbacks there really isnt a standout player like you probably have on the left side with Maldini. You have 4, 5 players that are in the same tier and it all depends what you want from your fullback.
True. As Enigma said, down to personal preferences.
I haven't watched any of the top tier right backs as much as Zanetti and Lahm.
Zanetti's career has a bit more of romance about it though in general and so have always liked him a bit more than the German.
Yeah, he is probably my favorite fullback. Who knows, if he leaved that italian circus for a top club i reckon a lot more people would place him in first tier, but then again because he stayed there i like him even more.
I somehow like the physical aspect of having Bremer and Tigana together in midfield. They'll have their hands full dealing with the likes of Zico, Nedved, and Rummenigge.
This is a great battle with brilliant forward lines. I really like @Enigma_87 forward line. I don't see how he can upgrade that. Having said that Puskas, Charles, Beckham and Barnes is brilliant as well. I'll give Enigma the advantage here.
Not completely sold on the midfield though and i feel that is where @P-Nut0712 has a slight advantage. Had researched Bremner for the Pre Premier league draft and was hoping to pick him here.
Defenses are more or equal for me. Will read through some more arguments before voting.
Not completely sold on the midfield though and i feel that is where @P-Nut0712 has a slight advantage. Had researched Bremner for the Pre Premier league draft and was hoping to pick him here.
Defenses are more or equal for me. Will read through some more arguments before voting.
Sorry I've not been around Enigma, had a late night.
I've only got a couple of issues with things that have been mentioned overnight.
You can't have it that Zico is going to be unmarked, yet when Puskás drops off he's in 3 players zones. Their both moving into the same zones, Zico starting into the 10 and Puskás moving into it.
If anything it would be Puskás who had more space. My midfielders know he's their problem and have to be able to get to him and pressure him. You're midfielders would be expecting the centre backs to mark Puskás and that gives him an edge when he drops off.
I've only got a couple of issues with things that have been mentioned overnight.
You can't have it that Zico is going to be unmarked, yet when Puskás drops off he's in 3 players zones. Their both moving into the same zones, Zico starting into the 10 and Puskás moving into it.
If anything it would be Puskás who had more space. My midfielders know he's their problem and have to be able to get to him and pressure him. You're midfielders would be expecting the centre backs to mark Puskás and that gives him an edge when he drops off.
No worries mate, no doubt we would miss out with timezones and work and all, off to it as well as we speak but just to reiterate on that point.
Puskas IMO is well covered. He would drop in a zone where we have a designated DM in Pluskal, Shesternyov or if he decide to go wide he'll fall in Djalma's zone. 3 defensively very sound players.
Zico on the other hand would have more joy from deep as he falls in the zone between Tigana and Bremner, who also have to cover Nedved and Rummenigge otherwise they'll leave either of them one on one with Pavoni and Cesar, where we'd get advantage on both sides.
Zico thrived in situations like that as he can turn swiftly with the ball and face the CB's.
Both Zico and Nedved(also Kalle) have cannon of a shot and any space around the penalty area can be exploited, especially in such fluid front line.
I'm not too sure on the advantage on either wing. Yes Nedved and Kalle are obviously better players than either full back has reached (or will reach in Azpis case), but they are both renowned for their defensive aspects of their game being much, much higher than their attacking. Azpiliceuta being the best defensive full back in the premier league for several seasons already, and Pavoni leading his clubs to loads of consecutive titles.
If they were tasked with supporting my attack like most modern full backs do then I'd say I'd have a major problem. As it is though they can constantly get tight to their opposing wingers. I am expecting a sort of Herrera on Hazard performance from them, not in terms of how limited he was, but in terms of the amount of focus on defence.
You'd see a lot of playing a pass and then going marking their men even whilst I'm still in possession.
Cesar and Pavoni are very good defensively indeed, but Kalle and Nedved are one of the elite players of their generation. Ballon D'or winners and at their pump you can't really leave them one on one with a full back.
When the ball is on the wing with either Kalle or Nedved, you'd definitely need one of your CM's covering the space thus leaving pockets for Zico.
The tactic is to stop it at source though. That's why they aren't focussing on attacking. Always being within a couple of feet as they receive the ball so they aren't getting turned and dribbling at them. It makes it so they can't build up that speed to dribble past them and would be dribbling in much tighter spaces.
As laid out in my post about Pavoni, he is most well known as a great man marker, it's his key skill that led to him being a great player. He wouldn't have worked in most other set ups to be honest, but here he's pretty perfect.
Azpiliceuta we all already know all about his defensive skill, playing right to his man and not worrying about breaking up field can only ever enhance that otherwise there would be no point in doing it.
Don't think you can limit the supply tho, mate. More often than not if we circulate the ball on the wings, there will be space and pockets for Zico to run into.
4-4-2/or the 4-2-4 variant here would be good if you had the lion share of the possession and still, despite Beckham's work rate considering our front four a 3 man midfield would have been better in limiting Zico's influence.
I just can't see him here being stopped and even if you concentrate both your CM's in the middle of the park to counter him, that would leave the flanks to Kalle and Nedved to operate and isolate the full back.
Barnes wasn't really known for his work rate and he usually took time catch his breath when off the ball and Puskas or Charles in that set up would be unlikely to track back either.
In our setup and defensive phase we'd have 3 defenders and Mackay/Pluskal shielding the defence - which would generally always(if you can say so) mean that we'd have a spare man to cover for our defensive player when the ball is in the opposition.
Was it implemented that you lose a bunch of players if you go through, i.e. that you have to re-draft to a (considerable) degree rather than just reinforcing?
Thought that was an interesting idea.
As is stands, Enigma's team makes a mockery of the draft name - could've been a final team in many a draft, really.
Nothing against P-Nut's effort, like his team, but there's too much quality on the other side (the structure is quality too, of course, not just a matter of names).
Thought that was an interesting idea.
As is stands, Enigma's team makes a mockery of the draft name - could've been a final team in many a draft, really.
Nothing against P-Nut's effort, like his team, but there's too much quality on the other side (the structure is quality too, of course, not just a matter of names).
Thanks, mate.
It will be a challenge to reinforce. We have to drop players in order to do that. For example my decade quotas from 20's till the 80's are filled. If I want to reinforce I have to make some marry go rounds and drop/reinforce two positions in order to reinforce one.
That and of course you have to drop WC/CL winners if you have that quota filled(2 winners each) as well.
That’s the same for everyone though, literally impossible not to fill out the quotas whilst picking enough players.
I think you’ve drafted well upgrade wise, looks like you’ve deliberately save some space for particular players which is good drafting - Duncan Edwards and Brehme drop in that team with zero requirement to shuffle.
But you’ll obviously be aware of that!
Ah, so that's the thing - yes, could mean you have to reshuffle a bit in order to grab an upgrade.
Then again, in your case you can pick and choose to an extent precisely who you want to upgrade, i.e. opting for the least painful route in terms of reshuffling. If you go through I could see you go for an upgrade on, say, Benarrivo or either of the central midfielders - but it won't matter all that much precisely who, they're good for another round regardless, with the setup you've gone for.
Harder if you absolutely have to replace someone who'll be perceived as a weak link (you have none).
Well done - impressive, and it'll be interesting to see what you go for (if you go through).
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That's what I mean though I don't mind your wingers isolating my full backs. They are both on strict man marking duties never more than a couple of yards away from them. Zico is a problem I accept, but with McKay and Pluskal battling with Tigana and Bremner your defence will have the same problem when Puskás drops into the hole. The only difference being Zico is constantly positioned in front of my defence, meaning they will be aware of where he is. When Puskás drops into that hole does the defender go with him or pass him on?
I don't really get why he's gone for a hybrid 424 at all. Using Beckham to play high and wide is just incomprehensible to me. He needs to play deep and sling those juicy crosses in. Using him in a Valencia role saddens me! Should be a standard 442.
Humm, I consider his team as a 4-4-2
The two teams are relatively close in terms of quality.
@P-Nut0712 has made a brilliant 4-4-2: I love his midfield and attack but I don't see his defence keeping the brilliant front 4 under control.
@P-Nut0712 has made a brilliant 4-4-2: I love his midfield and attack but I don't see his defence keeping the brilliant front 4 under control.
My defence doesn't stack up to Enigmas so a slow game of jostling to be on top would result in my defence losing out eventually. Giving my attack the best chance at getting at him whilst using purely defensive full backs was my best shot
Good game @P-Nut0712 ! Your team was one that I didn't want to face considering the relatively easy game plan you had to follow and describe an easy route to goal and also Puskas as a star man.
Couldn't really fault your line up and either 4-4-2 or 4-2-4 think it was easy to get the message across, whilst also having a solid foundation with Blanc at the back.
Couldn't really fault your line up and either 4-4-2 or 4-2-4 think it was easy to get the message across, whilst also having a solid foundation with Blanc at the back.
Cheers mate. Yeah I've left some obvious routes for upgrade and left some positions I can easily get like for like replacements especially with the 30's, 80's and 60's decades, and even before that.
The 50's and 70's are set in stone as I can't really upgrade Kalle, Zico and Nedved, so it really depends on who will make it down to me in the snake as being 8th in the picking order I'd imagine most of the names that aren't filling the CL/WC quotas at the time will be taken.
Have plenty of options tho, Desailly and Kohler even who are undrafted, Andrade, etc. Pity Redondo is blocked by Batigol(something I forgot off the top of my head to be honest until pick 4-5) otherwise he'd be my top choice.
Still many can upgrade with 2 pretty good players that already also have great teams.
Thanks, Chester. Yup as you said there's less pressure without glaring weakness. One route is also to free the 40's spot by getting De Gea and upgrading a single position. The other thing is of course the side peaking early as we saw in recent drafts when some of the favorites couldn't get their man and upgrade the side (think it was Sjor who had phenomenal side at the time) and the others caught up, turning the table with 2 great picks.
For better or for worse I won't probably touch that front four as with the first two picks now ineligible I can only make it worse, which limits the positions I have a pool from, but then it's a limitation I'd gladly take from the off and with all those restrictions in mind.
Think it will be close games in the next rounds as well, because there are some very good sides that need 1-2 players to become even better and whilst there are restrictions - they are in place for all, making it a bit easier for the drafters to get their targets when the snake returns to them.
Yeah I fully enjoyed that one. Didn't really want to slag any part of your team as I like it a lot so focused more on my own positions of strength.