The Impossible Draft - Finals: Enigma vs Idmanager

[Enigma_87]

WC final 2014.
Germany against Argentina.
Messi's Argentina losing to team work rather than a highly rated DM.

I wouldn’t call that a team work really. Bastian was on him in that game and that game was practically decided by that battle.

https://www.thehindu.com/sport/foot...-vs-bastian-schweinsteiger/article6204739.ece

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager im on your side regarding the debate, dont think you must have a specific man against number 10 but feck you couldnt have picked a worse example.....Schweini that game produced one of the greatest DM performances of all time.

The point being he was not a dedicated DM in a limited role. I am sure you would agree to that.
I am sure you would not call him any better a dedicated DM than Davids as well.

 

[Enigma_87]

The point being he was not a dedicated DM in a limited role. I am sure you would agree to that.
I am sure you would not call him any better a dedicated DM than Davids as well.

He was. I’ll provide even more detailed analysis later on that.

Also Zebec was far from the LB in a flat back four here. Tomorrow when you have time we can address that. He’s a much more attacking player and would open up gaps in a four man back line if you are going with the wide “version” of him

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The point being he was not a dedicated DM in a limited role. I am sure you would agree to that.
I am sure you would not call him any better a dedicated DM than Davids as well.

He was playing as a DM that game with Kroos playing in midfield not as a number 10.....he wasnt man marking Messi but he was playing as a DM. Plenty of examples of teams shutting down number 10s with zonal marking so there are plenty of other, much better examples. You dont even have to go far, both Madrids played plenty of games with 442, Heynckes Bayern etc. just find the opposition that suits you.

 

[idmanager]

He was. I’ll provide even more detailed analysis later on that.

Here's his WC final compilation. I havent watched it right now as I dont have 10 mins but I have watched the game multiple times and he contributed to the attack too and was often in the opposition half building up the game. Far from being a dedicated DM. Why waste time with analysis when we can watch the highlights.

 

[idmanager]

He was playing as a DM that game with Kroos playing in midfield not as a number 10.....he wasnt man marking Messi but he was playing as a DM. Plenty of examples of teams shutting down number 10s with zonal marking so there are plenty of other, much better examples. You dont even have to go far, both Madrids played plenty of games with 442, Heynckes Bayern etc. just find the opposition that suits you.

I will get back to you on this tomorrow mate. Cheers. Hold on to that thought.

 

[Moby]

WC final 2014.
Germany against Argentina.
Messi's Argentina losing to team work rather than a highly rated DM.

Bastian marked Messi.

 

[Enigma_87]

@idmanager im on your side regarding the debate, dont think you must have a specific man against number 10 but feck you couldnt have picked a worse example.....Schweini that game produced one of the greatest DM performances of all time.

I’d really wonder if you can provide an example for that mate(not having a designated marker).

Every big player in history - especially super star of a decade was marked tightly and had a player on him. There are loads of examples.

I’m not sure how Zico won’t get a free pass here in up against 4-2-3-1 with Davids and Ocwirk marking a zone.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I’d really wonder if you can provide an example for that mate(not having a designated marker).

Every big player in history - especially super star of a decade was marked tightly and had a player on him. There are loads of examples.

I’m not sure how Zico won’t get a free pass here in up against 4-2-3-1 with Davids and Ocwirk marking a zone.

football evolved, there is a good reason why we almost never see a proper man marking job this days.

 

[Enigma_87]

football evolved, there is a good reason why we almost never see a proper man marking job this days.

Happy to see your view on how the current game would pan out in terms of how Zico would be stopped here mate.

I’m not talking about always having a Gentile man marking job but usually there is a man designated on the opposition star man - like Schweini was against Messi in the example above.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Happy to see your view on how the current game would pan out in terms of how Zico would be stopped here mate.

I’m not talking about always having a Gentile man marking job but usually there is a man designated on the opposition star man - like Schweini was against Messi in the example above.

maybe tomorrow, im on my fourth glass of wine and it would require a longer post so i really cant be bothered right now will let idm fight his own battles, and tbf not sure he would like me in his corner, im swinging like Luis Fabiano.

 

[Don Alfredo]

@idmanager Great profile of Ocwirk! Always wanted to know more about him, just saw a few blurry snippets until now. I didn't get your player comparisons. During reading the profile I compared him to Schweinsteiger in my head. The defensive leader and the offensive leader of the team, the complete box2box package, plus added playmaking skills other B2B players lacked a bit (Neeskens, Masopust etc.).

I think idmanager made a great point with his team having to only defend against 4 players most of the time (unless Sammer storms forward from CB). Those 4 players are very formidable, but I think Enigma went with a bit of an defensive overkill: 2 defensive midfielders, plus 2 defensive fullbacks. I assume because of a fear of idmanager's flanks, where your FB gets roasted on here if he is known for attacking often, even if he is an All-Time Great (Carlos, Facchetti etc.).

I am still very much undecided. Enigma made some points about Zebec and since I know next to nothing about him, I want to know more. Enigma suggested him not being a LB at all. Is he comfortable at LB? Why is he not a LB if he is always used like that on here in drafts? What is his level compared to All-Time candidates? Is he Schnellinger level? Or Camacho level? Or worse?

Another name I would like to know more about the assessment of the drafters: how is Rivaldo rated alongside other Brazilians GOATs? Some rate him at the top end, I always saw him as a slower version of Ronaldinho.

I enjoyed the discussion until now and will follow that for some time before I chose between 2 great teams

 

[Gio]

football evolved, there is a good reason why we almost never see a proper man marking job this days.

Yeah. It’s mostly about having much less licence to kick feck out of your opposition number. Just about any famous man-marking job up to around 1990 had that to some degree. We have a GOAT who plays every week in the current generation and rarely gets the man-marking treatment. Zonal systems are generally more efficient, and also allow for sharing the tactical fouling burden across a number of players.

Remember Zoff getting quizzed ahead of the Euro 2000 final as Italy prepared to face Zidane in the form of his life, having just destroyed Spain and Portugal. The Italian journalists asked who was going to man mark the great man. But Zoff insisted they were playing a zonal system. And it worked - Zidane was comparatively quiet despite ‘merely’ facing a Albertini - Di Biagio tandem.

 

[Enigma_87]

@idmanager Great profile of Ocwirk! Always wanted to know more about him, just saw a few blurry snippets until now. I didn't get your player comparisons. During reading the profile I compared him to Schweinsteiger in my head. The defensive leader and the offensive leader of the team, the complete box2box package, plus added playmaking skills other B2B players lacked a bit (Neeskens, Masopust etc.).

I think idmanager made a great point with his team having to only defend against 4 players most of the time (unless Sammer storms forward from CB). Those 4 players are very formidable, but I think Enigma went with a bit of an defensive overkill: 2 defensive midfielders, plus 2 defensive fullbacks. I assume because of a fear of idmanager's flanks, where your FB gets roasted on here if he is known for attacking often, even if he is an All-Time Great (Carlos, Facchetti etc.).

I am still very much undecided. Enigma made some points about Zebec and since I know next to nothing about him, I want to know more. Enigma suggested him not being a LB at all. Is he comfortable at LB? Why is he not a LB if he is always used like that on here in drafts? What is his level compared to All-Time candidates? Is he Schnellinger level? Or Camacho level? Or worse?

Another name I would like to know more about the assessment of the drafters: how is Rivaldo rated alongside other Brazilians GOATs? Some rate him at the top end, I always saw him as a slower version of Ronaldinho.

I enjoyed the discussion until now and will follow that for some time before I chose between 2 great teams

Thanks for the feedback mate, really appreciated when a neutral takes the time to go through the teams in great detail as you.

Just to reiterate some points - Sammer would surely will add to the attacking phase. The reason why I went with him was exactly that - his surges forward and how he decided some of the biggest game at the highest level. Edwards also plays as a B2B midfielder - pretty much in his zone here, so he will also add to the attacking phase. The DM/anchor dropping back is Varela who will fill the void left by Sammer when he goes forward.

Onto Zebec -

https://www.11v11.com/matches/england-v-yugoslavia-28-november-1956-226792/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/yugoslavia-v-greece-09-may-1953-226216/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/greece-v-yugoslavia-28-march-1954-226334/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/yugoslavia-v-israel-08-november-1953-226284/
https://www.11v11.com/matches/yugoslavia-v-france-16-june-1954-226376/

he was predominantly used as a left side midfielder or left winger at the height of his career. He mainly an attacking player and had a goalscoring rate of 1 goal in 3 games both for club and country. If Sammer role is being questioned Zebec's role in a flat back four is much more dubious especially given the setup.

Zebec was far from the defensive level of Schnellinger or Camacho in a flat back 4. If you use him as wingback - then yes I can give you that but certainly not in the current setup.

As for Rivaldo. I'd rate him below Ronaldinho at his peak, but ahead of Neymar and Kaka for example. He's still one of the best attackers and loved the big stage. Generally he tends to be underrated in these things and probably would won't be much of a pull apart from when you combine him with Ronaldinho and Fenomeno.

The reason why I went with Djalma and Marzolini is of course the opposition wingers in mind, but Marzolini is very useful carrying the ball forward, whilst Djalma provides the stage for Sammer to surge forward and the latter addition to the defence and transitioning to midfield is second to none.

He has decided more than one game going forward, so he has to be minded by the opposition midfielders/defenders.

In terms of numbers we have always a spare man to cover for counter attacks and with our midfield being IMO better (especially with Nedved and Sammer overloading it) IDmanager would have his supply to the forward line cut off most of the cases, thus limiting his chances going forward. The balanced to defensive full backs allow us not to be vulnerable on counters as we cover the opposition strengths pretty well.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah. It’s mostly about having much less licence to kick feck out of your opposition number. Just about any famous man-marking job up to around 1990 had that to some degree. We have a GOAT who plays every week in the current generation and rarely gets the man-marking treatment. Zonal systems are generally more efficient, and also allow for sharing the tactical fouling burden across a number of players.

Remember Zoff getting quizzed ahead of the Euro 2000 final as Italy prepared to face Zidane in the form of his life, having just destroyed Spain and Portugal. The Italian journalists asked who was going to man mark the great man. But Zoff insisted they were playing a zonal system. And it worked - Zidane was comparatively quiet despite ‘merely’ facing a Albertini - Di Biagio tandem.

Nah I'm not talking about kicking a player out of the game mate, far from it, but most GOAT's are minded always by a personal marker and then zonally depending in where the ball is. The difference between Messi and Ronaldo is that they usually start from wide compared to a classic #10 like Zico. However even then and even Fergie employed a certain Jones on a marking job on Ronaldo.

Both Messi and Ronaldo are constantly minded and doubled in todays game, even Neymar and the other opposition star names. They of course use zone and doesn't always hound the opposition man off the pitch but are occupying the same area or close by him when he receives the ball.

If you let Messi or Ronaldo to receive the ball constantly in pockets in your own half or only use zonal to me is a recipe for disaster.

This is Zico when allowed to run the show:

 

[Gio]

Nah I'm not talking about kicking a player out of the game mate, far from it, but most GOAT's are minded always by a personal marker and then zonally depending in where the ball is. The difference between Messi and Ronaldo is that they usually start from wide compared to a classic #10 like Zico. However even then and even Fergie employed a certain Jones on a marking job on Ronaldo.

Both Messi and Ronaldo are constantly minded and doubled in todays game, even Neymar and the other opposition star names. They of course use zone and doesn't always hound the opposition man off the pitch but are occupying the same area or close by him when he receives the ball.

If you let Messi or Ronaldo to receive the ball constantly in pockets in your own half or only use zonal to me is a recipe for disaster.

I don't see Messi having a man designated to marking him with any frequency. Happens occasionally, but the vast majority of times it's a collective effort and it's more based around limiting the space between the midfield and defensive lines to play as compact as possible, while cutting out the service in the first place. In the context of this game, I'm not abdicating responsibility for idmanager to have a plan to deal with Zico, he still needs that, but I think the notion of a dedicated man-marker is often dated.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't see Messi having a man designated to marking him with any frequency. Happens occasionally, but the vast majority of times it's a collective effort and it's more based around limiting the space between the midfield and defensive lines to play as compact as possible, while cutting out the service in the first place. In the context of this game, I'm not abdicating responsibility for idmanager to have a plan to deal with Zico, he still needs that, but I think the notion of a dedicated man-marker is often dated.

For Argentina it's usually the case. For Barcelona usually the opposition is stuffed into their own half and Barca having 80% possession so you are right in that as a system, but still over the years many have man marked Messi and that's usually the case when you try to cope with him.

The most recent example where it became more obvious/famous were the games against Girona and against Real, here's more:

Did Pablo Maffeo's man-marking of Lionel Messi teach us anything? The Man City loanee did well to keep Messi out of the match during the Catalan derby between Girona and FC Barcelona. Even though his side lost the match 3 - 0, he kept Messi off the score sheet and it got some people talking. How successful can man-marking be against Messi?

It is widely accepted that Messi is unplayable in a straight up match even when it seems like he has limited space and time on the ball. Pablo Maffeo's performance over the weekend did not leave Messi with enough space to scratch is head let alone drive at the defense with speed, the ball cemented to his foot.


Of course this is not the first time that Messi has been man-marked out of a match. Mateo Kovacic, in the recent Spanish Super Cup match, can be seen keeping an extremely close eye on Barca's main man. In this case he forced the Argentinian internation very deep in order to receive the ball. This took a lot away from the Barca attack

In 2007, Alvaro Arbeloa, then of Liverpool, was given the job of stopping Messi.

“Rafa Benitez came up to me and told me that I was going to be playing left-back. He is a left-footer who plays on the right and we knew that he would come inside every time he had the opportunity. I was a right-footer and as such it was easier to cut him off. It worked well,” Arbeloa recalls.

He was right, Liverpool knocked Barca out of the Champions League and Messi was largely ineffective during the tie.


Between 2007 and 2017, many players have tried to deal with Messi’s threat, though very few have succeeded.

Back in 2011, Jose Mourinho asked Pepe to take on the task of keeping Messi quiet and it worked… until the the Argentine picked up the ball on halfway, embarked on a trademark dribble and put the ball in the back of the net.

Also in 2010, Sokratis Papastathopoulos frustrated Messi so much that the Argentine looked for refuge out on the right wing, abandoning his striking role.

Almost anything goes when it comes to thwarting Lionel Messi.

Even Barca's current manager Ernesto Valverde has tried and failed to stop Messi in the past, giving Mikel Balenziaga the task in the 2015 Copa Del Rey final between Barca and Athletic Bilbao. Though Messi was just too good for his opponent on that occasion.

In reality there really is no way of stoping Messi in total. If you do end up slowing him down or limiting his influence on the match you have to worry about all the other weapons that come along with Barcelona. In effect it is always a case of winning the battle but losing the war.

Also I don't think ID plays in a deep line assuming pressure and letting 70% of the ball to the opposition, hence the approach you mentioned wouldn't work here just say you'd zonally mark Zico between Ocwirk and Davids.

Also the first bolded part is really key. If Zico is zonally marked in that sweet #10 spot that really works pretty well in our favor as it gives him the weapons to either find the net outside the box(not that he's unfamiliar with that scoring more than 500 goals without playing as a striker) or finding Kalle, Batigol or Nedved entering the box.

 

[Gio]

For Argentina it's usually the case. For Barcelona usually the opposition is stuffed into their own half and Barca having 80% possession so you are right in that as a system, but still over the years many have man marked Messi and that's usually the case when you try to cope with him.

The most recent example where it became more obvious/famous were the games against Girona and against Real, here's more:



Also I don't think ID plays in a deep line assuming pressure and letting 70% of the ball to the opposition, hence the approach you mentioned wouldn't work here just say you'd zonally mark Zico between Ocwirk and Davids.

I'm not saying it's not a viable tactic for dealing with the great man. But you're talking about a small number of examples for a guy who plays 75 games a year and has over 800 career games to date, so I wouldn't say it's standard practice or a requirement.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not saying it's not a viable tactic for dealing with the great man. But you're talking about a small number of examples for a guy who plays 75 games a year and has over 800 career games to date, so I wouldn't say it's standard practice or a requirement.

Well the other practice is doubling and even tripling on him when he gets the ball and enters a particular zone.

You said it yourself in the previous game - Matthews and Gento are pretty orthodox wingers and won't particularly help the midfield, whilst ID plays with two offensive full backs, one of which was usually deployed as a winger or wide midfielder at his peak.

Dealing with Zico here to me is a big challenge, especially in a 4-2-3-1 without industrious wingers that can track back or saturate the center. Neither Matthews nor Gento are that type of players.Gento played as an outside left in 5 man attack, whilst Matthews was your original outside right winger.

IMO this is important point on how we read draft games, especially when we fall into GOAT territory and dealing with great #10's.

To me there are couple of possible options:

1. Deepish line as you mentioned, and limiting the gap between the defence and midfield, but this is not what ID has in mind here.
2. Man marker - neither this one
3. Zonally have both Ocwirk/Davids minding Zico, but this opens up space for Kalle to exploit tucking in or Sammer/Edwards storming from deep.

That and Zebec at LB in 4 man defence are the key points tactically that we have an upper hand, before we get into individual battles IMO.

 

[Gio]

@idmanager Great profile of Ocwirk! Always wanted to know more about him, just saw a few blurry snippets until now. I didn't get your player comparisons. During reading the profile I compared him to Schweinsteiger in my head. The defensive leader and the offensive leader of the team, the complete box2box package, plus added playmaking skills other B2B players lacked a bit (Neeskens, Masopust etc.).

I think idmanager made a great point with his team having to only defend against 4 players most of the time (unless Sammer storms forward from CB). Those 4 players are very formidable, but I think Enigma went with a bit of an defensive overkill: 2 defensive midfielders, plus 2 defensive fullbacks. I assume because of a fear of idmanager's flanks, where your FB gets roasted on here if he is known for attacking often, even if he is an All-Time Great (Carlos, Facchetti etc.).

I am still very much undecided. Enigma made some points about Zebec and since I know next to nothing about him, I want to know more. Enigma suggested him not being a LB at all. Is he comfortable at LB? Why is he not a LB if he is always used like that on here in drafts? What is his level compared to All-Time candidates? Is he Schnellinger level? Or Camacho level? Or worse?

Another name I would like to know more about the assessment of the drafters: how is Rivaldo rated alongside other Brazilians GOATs? Some rate him at the top end, I always saw him as a slower version of Ronaldinho.

I enjoyed the discussion until now and will follow that for some time before I chose between 2 great teams

I know you raised Zebec in the semi final. Wasn't my job to sell him to you, but equally I had no intention of sticking the knife in. He has some very persuasive testimony highlighting how good he was in the centre of defence. When you combine that with his obvious ability on the flank, with that searing pace, he looks like a tailor made full-back or LCB. From previously researching him, he moved to centre-half at the age of 28 for Yugoslavia, and was a revelation there, gaining a lot of praise for his aerial ability and 1v1 defensive acumen.

Sorry @Enigma_87, not taking sides here, just wanted a chance to illustrate what Zebec was like.

 

[Enigma_87]

I know you raised Zebec in the semi final. Wasn't my job to sell him to you, but equally I had no intention of sticking the knife in. He has some very persuasive testimony highlighting how good he was in the centre of defence. When you combine that with his obvious ability on the flank, with that searing pace, he looks like a tailor made full-back or LCB. From previously researching him, he moved to centre-half at the age of 28 for Yugoslavia, and was a revelation there, gaining a lot of praise for his aerial ability and 1v1 defensive acumen.

Sorry @Enigma_87, not taking sides here, just wanted a chance to illustrate what Zebec was like.

No worries mate, always good to have a second opinion and from an neutral as well which is also useful for other neutrals. Still he didn't really play as a LB in his career. This is a point that @Šjor Bepo raised on Rats in one if his games and to me is perfectly valid, especially since we talked about Sammer on the previous page.

Playing as a CB and before that as LM/LW doesn't necessarily means he'd be a tailored made full back in a back 4. Not all CB/LM made a succesfull transition to full back positions and at the highest level as well.

He'd be probed by Kalle, Zico, Nedved in that zone when one of them attacks the flank - 2 Ballon Do'r winners(one multiple) and the best player on the park.

He might have the right qualities to be a good left back, but he certainly doesn't have the experience being one, and you need a bit of time to gain that IMO, especially at the highest level.

Here's some excerpts from the History of the World Cup book, underlining his position in the 54 WC against France and Brazil.

Whilst at 28 he was deployed as a CB he still played plenty in midfield and left wing. He was versatile enough to play in multiple positions but his defensive duties in the defence line, not industrious midfielder, came to the fore in his later years and at 32 he retired from the NT and was allowed to leave Yugoslavia but wasn't really a factor playing at Alemania Aahen in German second division (of course missing on quite a big chunk of football time due to political reasons).

 

[Gio]

He might have the right qualities to be a good left back, but he certainly doesn't have the experience being one, and you need a bit of time to gain that IMO, especially at the highest level.

Zebec played in defence on at least 11 occasions for Yugoslavia including against strong European opposition in Austria, West Germany, Hungary (twice), France (twice), Scotland, England and Romania. Think that was a mix of CB and LCB (because Yugoslavia played a 3223 for most of this era). But it would be fair to say that defending into wide areas in those narrow formations requires significant space-covering skills, which he apparently has. Throw in his actual experience out wide and he looks well set to be a pretty tasty left back.

To be honest it's the same as Sammer, as you say, playing in the middle of a back four. Not something he did per se, but he had many of the attributes to do it properly with the right partner (subject of course to what he is facing).

 

[Enigma_87]

Zebec played in defence on at least 11 occasions for Yugoslavia including against strong European opposition in Austria, West Germany, Hungary (twice), France (twice), Scotland, England and Romania. Think that was a mix of CB and LCB (because Yugoslavia played a 3223 for most of this era). But it would be fair to say that defending into wide areas in those narrow formations requires significant space-covering skills, which he apparently has. Throw in his actual experience out wide and he looks well set to be a pretty tasty left back.

To be honest it's the same as Sammer, as you say, playing in the middle of a back four. Not something he did per se, but he had many of the attributes to do it properly with the right partner (subject of course to what he is facing).

That experience out wide is as a winger, not full back.

Also here he has to provide in the attacking phase - vertical movement rather than tucking in as a CB or playing as a CB covering wide and usually the second role has little to no addition to your team's attack. Going by the formation graphic he's also asked to participate in the attacking phase which makes his role as an attacking full back in flat back 4, without a designated DM.

He might have the qualities to play as a LB, but it's also fair to say he didn't really have the experience in playing as one.

You also can't have it both ways - a nearly 30 years old Zebec gaining that experience as CB, who started his career at an early age(16) and use his pace as a winger to combine it into one. It's like having Scholes in both the SS and DLP role, think that's a bit unfair representation of his athletic skills.

As for Sammer - again it's a bit different. It's not a flat back 4, Varela will drop in to provide the cover.

The issue with Sammer leaving his defensive position could be second striker to trouble us at the back or having no one to cover for him when he surges forward - here we don't have a second striker in ID's team and we have the players to cover the void left by him.

 

[Jim Beam]

Just a few thoughts, some of them already mentioned by others:

- don't like Shesternyov/Sammer combo at CB, don't think it is a perfect combination with 2 sweepers in back 4 and prefer the earlier setup. Get the idea about Varela pulling down, but it just isn't a perfect environment for Sammer to play his game.
- agree with idmanager that Zico influenced can be reduced in his set up and not by strict man marking
- don't agree with the notion that id has more attacking minded players in this particular game, as Zebec and Alberto will be restraint by Kalle and Nedved on either side of the pitch and even if you don't man-mark Zico Davids will probably have one eye on him most of the times
- Also, Edwards is much more than DM, his ability to bomb forward and be a goal threat either by powerful long shots or surging into the penalty area is another big attacking outlet that has not been mentioned so much here, but as I understood from @Enigma_87 he was also supposed to cover Sammer's runs forward most of the times?

Atm, like idmanager setup and team balance just a bit more, but think enigma has more individual quality. Still not decided.

 

[Enigma_87]

Just a few thoughts, some of them already mentioned by others:

- don't like Shesternyov/Sammer combo at CB, don't think it is a perfect combination with 2 sweepers in back 4 and prefer the earlier setup. Get the idea about Varela pulling down, but it just isn't a perfect environment for Sammer to play his game.
- agree with idmanager that Zico influenced can be reduced in his set up and not by strict man marking
- don't agree with the notion that id has more attacking minded players in this particular game, as Zebec and Alberto will be restraint by Kalle and Nedved on either side of the pitch and even if you don't man-mark Zico Davids will probably have one eye on him most of the times
- Also, Edwards is much more than DM, his ability to bomb forward and be a goal threat either by powerful long shots or surging into the penalty area is another big attacking outlet that has not been mentioned so much here, but as I understood from @Enigma_87 he was also supposed to cover Sammer's run forward most of the times?

Atm, like idmanager setup and team balance just a bit more, but think enigma has more individual quality. Still not decided.

Thanks for the comments mate, just couple of things to clarify.

- Shesternyov isn't the conventional sweeper, but rather a CB type and has all the qualities to be a great stopper as well,as @harms can also testify. IMO stylistically they are very good fit as Shesternyov brings the physical presence combined with Sammer's ability on the ball. We're also up against a team with a lone striker, hence we don't need both CB's to constantly be in a deep line so a DM covering for Sammer makes a perfect sense and would allow him to bomb forward. Both ID's wingers are traditional ones not wide forwards which makes it easier for us to defend centrally.

- It doesn't have to be a strict man marking, but someone has to play the marker role or at least constantly watch over for Zico. Again, the opposition have little to no support from the wingers and play 2 very attacking full backs, whilst centrally both Edwards and Sammer are factors, let alone Zico, Kalle and Batistuta dropping in the hole.

- agree with this, besides if he isn't playing man marking on Zico he'd still need 2 players in that zone as if you leave Zico 1 on 1 with even Davids the former can get the best of him on many occasions during the game.

- Edwards will be playing a B2B role, Varela is the DM covering for Sammer, so Edwards is pretty much in his element here as a left half.

Think we have a lot more quality to be honest - Zico, Nedved, Kalle and Batistuta individually are plainly better attacking 4, whilst the CM combo also shades ID's one. Marzolini is also in his element here, whilst Zebec is in makeshift role and IMO our CB pair also shades it if you count Djalma and Carlos Alberto equal in terms of quality.

The combination of all that and the individual quality across the pitch IMO should win this one for us.

There isn't also a clear plan on how Zico would be stopped here, neither Zebec playing in a natural role, but a makeshift one. Ocwirk also seems to have a lot of going on and he wasn't really an aggressive or particularly fast/quick on and off the ball. It has to be Davids on a limited role in the midfield to keep an eye on Zico, Ocwirk from what I've read about him seems a terrible fit for me here.

 

[Jim Beam]

Thanks @Enigma_87 for such a quick comment, must go out, will come back a bit later to respond.

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks @Enigma_87 for such a quick comment, must go out, will come back a bit later to respond.

No worries, mate, take your time. Just to reiterate on Shesternyov/Sammer combo - Shesternyov was often paired with Khurtsilava as CB partner and the latter had more ability on the ball, whilst also playing in back 4 formations. To me stylistically they are a bit better pair than Santamaria/Shesternyov combo as Sammer's game would be much more appreciated by the team here, especially his quick one twos to get in forward position pretty quickly and his distribution from the back. What the team lacked IMO with the Varela/Shesternyov/Santamaria in last games was that distribution and the ability of one of the defenders to carry the ball forward, hence to me Sammer was the right fit and upgrade for the final round.

 

[Jim Beam]

No worries, mate, take your time. Just to reiterate on Shesternyov/Sammer combo - Shesternyov was often paired with Khurtsilava as CB partner and the latter had more ability on the ball, whilst also playing in back 4 formations. To me stylistically they are a bit better pair than Santamaria/Shesternyov combo as Sammer's game would be much more appreciated by the team here, especially his quick one twos to get in forward position pretty quickly and his distribution from the back. What the team lacked IMO with the Varela/Shesternyov/Santamaria in last games was that distribution and the ability of one of the defenders to carry the ball forward, hence to me Sammer was the right fit and upgrade for the final round.

Ok, you pretty much answered my next question as the main motive to put Sammer instead of Santamaria. Both Shesternyov and Santamaria were primarily known for their ball-winning and defensive ability. But, from little I've seen Santamaria wasn't that bad on the ball and his short and long passing from the back while not being something world-class was still pretty solid. Varela had great stamina but was also good on the ball. Take into account that your backline wouldn't be so pressed in idmanager setup and I don't think you gained that much, while lost some of the defensive solidity imo. I just prefer more that pairing in which all players are more accustomed to their positions and there is no need for covering other positions by different players.

As for the rest, thx for clarifying Edwards role. Was a bit confused with some of your earlier posts which seemed to me you're taking away a bit from Edwards attacking contribution.

I know that many have questioned Sammer in a back four, but this setup isn't really a conventional 4-2-3-1 with 2 attacking full backs. Plus with Edwards and Varela he has the freedom to bomb forward and has the perfect stage to do so.

In essence he's still playing in that libero role if you go through each player tasks and assignments in the back line, considering there is really no better protection to the back four than Varela and Edwards before him.

Also, yeah, agree on that individual quality. Pretty hard to ignore it looking at the team and Marzolini is a great addition. Still can't believe you manage to get away with Zico, Batistuta and Nedved in first 3 rounds of the draft with only one of them being CA winner.

Will vote a bit later, preferably after some of id thoughts also.

 

[Enigma_87]

Ok, you pretty much answered my next question as the main motive to put Sammer instead of Santamaria. Both Shesternyov and Santamaria were primarily known for their ball-winning and defensive ability. But, from little I've seen Santamaria wasn't that bad on the ball and his short and long passing from the back while not being something world-class was still pretty solid. Varela had great stamina but was also good on the ball. Take into account that your backline wouldn't be so pressed in idmanager setup and I don't think you gained that much, while lost some of the defensive solidity imo. I just prefer more that pairing in which all players are more accustomed to their positions and there is no need for covering other positions by different players.

As for the rest, thx for clarifying Edwards role. Was a bit confused with some of your earlier posts which seemed to me you're taking away a bit from Edwards attacking contribution.





Also, yeah, agree on that individual quality. Pretty hard to ignore it looking at the team and Marzolini is a great addition. Still can't believe you manage to get away with Zico, Batistuta and Nedved in first 3 rounds of the draft with only one of them being CA winner.

Will vote a bit later, preferably after some of id thoughts also.

Sure thing mate, let me know if you have other questions on the set up Don’t think we lost defensive stability tho. Love Santamaria but Sammer has produced some top notch defensive displays at his peak. He’s often underrated IMO around here but to be German player of the year twice in a row and Ballon Dor winner ahead of players like Fenomeno is really telling.

I agree that I’ve been lucky with my first three picks. Not only that they don’t have many accolades but they also block practically nobody worth of note bar Redondo. That gave me a pretty big boost in the team building later on.

 

[Indnyc]

Hope @idmanager comes back to answer some of the questions on Zebec and Zonal defending against Zico. Don’t want to vote before he has a chance to defend his team properly

 

[Theon]

The zonal defending thing isn’t making much sense to me. You don’t need to man mark players, that’s a ridiculous notion and you rarely see it in the modern game.

I also don’t see any huge difference in the way Enigma’s side would deal with Rivelino and Idmanagers side would deal with Zico, so don’t really get what’s being debated here. Varela is probably the most defensive midfielder on the pitch, but the covering for Sammer thing makes me think that Idmanager is the one with the more structured midfield set up.

 

[Theon]

He's being covered by Varela. Varela himself played as a half back and also CB numerous times in his careers. He's one of the best anchors in the game.

Sammer brings forward his ability on the ball, the ability to start counters from deep and the ability to stretch the game in attack when we're in possession.

At his peak he was all that - a threat at both ends, and whilst Santamaria is a great defender on his own Sammer a Ballon D'or winner on the back of not his goals and ability in midfield but the way he organized the defence and also kept the opposition attackers at bay.

Varela is one of the best defensive midfielders in the game, not centre backs. I just don’t see the need for him to spend his time worrying about covering for Sammer - just play him in his natural defensive midfield role. It’s a very specific thing your talking about, dropping in and out of a four man defence and I’d need to see some solid evidence of Varela doing that to buy it working to any degree. Whole thing just seems over-thought and needlessly complicated. Can’t see it getting the best out of Varela at all.

I know the qualities of Sammer and completely agree he can be a force of nature when used correctly. I don’t think he is here though and if you want that all action performance you should play him in midfield or as a libero in a back three.

Disagree on Santamaria, I think in a back four he’s the more accomplished defender and I much preferred that CB partnership you had in previous rounds. That’s just my opinion though, I can see the logic of getting Sammer as he’s the better overall player but I don’t think it’s as strong a unit as the sum of its parts, whereas Santamaria / Shesternyov just seemed a solid defensive partnership.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

@idmanager Great profile of Ocwirk! Always wanted to know more about him, just saw a few blurry snippets until now. I didn't get your player comparisons. During reading the profile I compared him to Schweinsteiger in my head. The defensive leader and the offensive leader of the team, the complete box2box package, plus added playmaking skills other B2B players lacked a bit (Neeskens, Masopust etc.).

I think idmanager made a great point with his team having to only defend against 4 players most of the time (unless Sammer storms forward from CB). Those 4 players are very formidable, but I think Enigma went with a bit of an defensive overkill: 2 defensive midfielders, plus 2 defensive fullbacks. I assume because of a fear of idmanager's flanks, where your FB gets roasted on here if he is known for attacking often, even if he is an All-Time Great (Carlos, Facchetti etc.).

I am still very much undecided. Enigma made some points about Zebec and since I know next to nothing about him, I want to know more. Enigma suggested him not being a LB at all. Is he comfortable at LB? Why is he not a LB if he is always used like that on here in drafts? What is his level compared to All-Time candidates? Is he Schnellinger level? Or Camacho level? Or worse?

Another name I would like to know more about the assessment of the drafters: how is Rivaldo rated alongside other Brazilians GOATs? Some rate him at the top end, I always saw him as a slower version of Ronaldinho.

I enjoyed the discussion until now and will follow that for some time before I chose between 2 great teams

You're not calling Duncan Edwards a defensive midfielder are you?

 

[Enigma_87]

The zonal defending thing isn’t making much sense to me. You don’t need to man mark players, that’s a ridiculous notion and you rarely see it in the modern game.

I also don’t see any huge difference in the way Enigma’s side would deal with Rivelino and Idmanagers side would deal with Zico, so don’t really get what’s being debated here. Varela is probably the most defensive midfielder on the pitch, but the covering for Sammer thing makes me think that Idmanager is the one with the more structured midfield set up.

Come on mate there is a big difference in both defensive set ups.

Let’s break it up - we have two old school defensive/balanced fullbacks marking th opposition old school wingers. Then Shestrnyov is coping with Spencer. Varela is occupied with Rivelino. Sammer is the spare man in the defensive phase - the very much definition of a libero.

When we have the ball Sammer gallops forward Varela moves again where Rivelino should be so in no way he’s restricted here. If we lose that ball Sammer gallops back and the defense shapes up back again.

It’s not very complicated defensive set up and we’re actually aided by the opposition formation fielding two orthodox wingers.

 

[Enigma_87]

Varela is one of the best defensive midfielders in the game, not centre backs. I just don’t see the need for him to spend his time worrying about covering for Sammer - just play him in his natural defensive midfield role. It’s a very specific thing your talking about, dropping in and out of a four man defence and I’d need to see some solid evidence of Varela doing that to buy it working to any degree. Whole thing just seems over-thought and needlessly complicated. Can’t see it getting the best out of Varela at all.

I know the qualities of Sammer and completely agree he can be a force of nature when used correctly. I don’t think he is here though and if you want that all action performance you should play him in midfield or as a libero in a back three.

Disagree on Santamaria, I think in a back four he’s the more accomplished defender and I much preferred that CB partnership you had in previous rounds. That’s just my opinion though, I can see the logic of getting Sammer as he’s the better overall player but I don’t think it’s as strong a unit as the sum of its parts, whereas Santamaria / Shesternyov just seemed a solid defensive partnership.

Think you are getting a bit one sided here in your argument mate. Varela would always occupy his natural position and zone he isn’t tasked in doing anything special or out of his comfort zone.

You have to look at the opposition as well and how the matchup would go.

 

[Moby]

Carmela is occupied with Rivelino.

 

[Theon]

Think you are getting a bit one sided here in your argument mate. Varela would always occupy his natural position and zone he isn’t tasked in doing anything special or out of his comfort zone.

You have to look at the opposition as well and how the matchup would go.

Apologies if it seems that way but I don't mean it to sound one sided at all - think ultimately Idmanagers defence is a lot cleaner and obvious how it will work, whereas yours is more complicated and in my opinion overthought. Don't think that's too controversial really, Sammer in a back four playing a libero is the definition of a tactic which would attract some questioning so wouldn't get too sensitive about it!

Also I think some of the things you are saying are just quite strong, blanket statements which are not correct - so bound to get picked up on. Saying that "Varela would always occupy his natural position and zone" is an example of that, as that just seems nonsense to me when you have him playing a role where he's required to drop into a back four defence. Just find the whole thing bizzare .

 

[Enigma_87]

fecking autocorrect

 

[Theon]

When we have the ball Sammer gallops forward Varela moves again where Rivelino should be so in no way he’s restricted here. If we lose that ball Sammer gallops back and the defense shapes up back again.

This is another example. You have spent the first half of the thread saying that when Sammer moves forward Varela would drop back and cover for him in the defensive line, whereas now he is staying where he is covering Rivelino.

Whole thing is confusing and think it would be chaotic on the pitch. No idea why you didn't just stick with that previous back line.

 

[Enigma_87]

Apologies if it seems that way but I don't mean it to sound one sided at all - think ultimately Idmanagers defence is a lot cleaner and obvious how it will work, whereas yours is more complicated and in my opinion overthought. Don't think that's too controversial really, Sammer in a back four playing a libero is the definition of a tactic which would attract some questioning so wouldn't get too sensitive about it!

Also I think some of the things you are saying are just quite strong, blanket statements which are not correct - so bound to get picked up on. Saying that "Varela would always occupy his natural position and zone" is an example of that, as that just seems nonsense to me when you have him playing a role where he's required to drop into a back four defence. Just find the whole thing bizzare .

Think you are getting a bit carried away mate with the all back four thing. the actual setup and the opposition doesn’t really make it a weakness but plays to the strength to my defensive line. But let’s just agree to disagree